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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

RightOnTime said:
I agree with your analysis, the only thing I will say is that all of these things are inextricable screens, Dragonite, Kyurem, Tera blast, Gambit, and Oger all are aiding HO or offensive play styles which make it feel really oppressive. Building to handle all of those threats at once feels a bit overwhelming and people typical don’t have concrete answers besides “sequence” or “get hazards up.” Sort of a bummer that there’s no changes for the rest of the gen, but understandable.
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Finchinator didn't say there'd be no changes for the rest of the generation, just that he doesn't think there's anything banworthy in the meta but would allow a suspect test depending on whether the qualified demographic of survey takers score something at 3.5 or above (This part is implied based on past statements. Dragonite had a 3.44 on the last OU Tiering Survey, and Finchinator said that Dragonite was close to getting a suspect and previously stated that 3.5 is automatic suspect territory provided no other mon had a higher score than that, and it isn't a score for something previously tested already). Dragonite is the only thing I can maybe see getting a suspect test as support for it getting banned has been growing over time. Whether we have reached critical mass for a suspect test to happen is what we will see with the upcoming survey.
 
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RightOnTime said:
I agree with your analysis, the only thing I will say is that all of these things are inextricable screens, Dragonite, Kyurem, Tera blast, Gambit, and Oger all are aiding HO or offensive play styles which make it feel really oppressive. Building to handle all of those threats at once feels a bit overwhelming and people typical don’t have concrete answers besides “sequence” or “get hazards up.” Sort of a bummer that there’s no changes for the rest of the gen, but understandable.
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Aren't a lot of these mons like Dragonite & Gambit really good into offense because of their strong priority? Most HO or bulky offense teams I've seen struggle with Dnite esp because their defensive backbone against it can be a bit fake. I'd imagine dealing with Sun, TR or Webs would be harder if they were banned.
 
Magcargo said:
Aren't a lot of these mons like Dragonite & Gambit really good into offense because of their strong priority? Most HO or bulky offense teams I've seen struggle with Dnite esp because their defensive backbone against it can be a bit fake. I'd imagine dealing with Sun, TR or Webs would be harder if they were banned.
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Good point. Dnite and Gambit are sort of flexible any way you cut it. I don’t think either are broken, but I do think the meta advantages HO/offense more than bulkier playstyles right now.
 
cat111ca said:
Can we talk about :Excadrill:? Like. How does it rise but not hydraplle or sinistcha?
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There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.
Torkoal recently hit 4.54% usage on the OU ladder for November. 56% of these Torkoal were ran on a single team spammed by a bot on the OU ladder. Excadrill hit 6.68% usage, with 38% of the usage coming from this same bot. If trends continue, two mons that would otherwise get about 2% and 4.1% usage respectively will end up rising to OU not off of real people, but off of a bot using a gimmick triple weather team.
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Shouldn't we do something about bots? But what could we do? I think usage should be determined by different teams used on ladder and not amount of use (using the exect same team doesn't add to usage)
 
Hon07rial said:
There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.
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In my opinion, if there is a bot that is inflating the usage of certain pokemon then the usage by that bot should not count. Is it really fair to let Excadrill rise to OU if it isn't getting enough usage from actual human players? I am aware that this is probably a post I should make in some tiering discussion thread so I apologize. (Also what is Tyranitar's usage without the bot inflation? I am sure it will still rise to OU anyway from actual human usage but I am still a bit curious.)
 
Hon07rial said:
There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.
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But how do we even know its a bot? Is it a bot, or is it just one person playing a lot of games?

If its one person playing like, 5 or so games simultaneously, then yeah its a bot i wont disagree, but how do we know?
 
This is indeed not the place to discuss bots in ladder. There is a thread in Policy Review if you wish to read and talk about it. Otherwise, lets please try to avoid it here.

...

Excadrill is doing quite well, you can find a few replays from OLT quarterfinals and SCL. The social media section is working on an Excadrill spotlight coming out this month, and among teams you have this RMT by 658greninja and JackRG1. Both Swords Dance and Substitute sets are quite good, has entry points against the likes of Galarian Slowking and Raging Bolt, provides speed control, hazard removal, a potential wincon, and its somewhat hard to wall outright.
 
It is interesting to see at the generations tail-end, former OU mons that "fell off" like Tyranitar, Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Garchomp are seeing a resurgence. The impression I get is that this isn't entirely a fad and will likely last a while.

I haven't played for a couple of months, but I do wanna give a big shoutout to the resident GOAT :Meowscarada: (and of course :Weavile:) for matching up incredibly well into a lot of these rising mons. Its a bit weird seeing that both Meowscarada / Weavile are currently in the B Ranks when they are arguably two of the best mons at farming a lot of these Torn-T builds we see on the ladder. Pads Meow I think is particularly nice since Helmet mons like Chomp or contract cheesers like Zapdos / Heatran just become more fodder. I think Meow just generally doing well vs standard cores like Ogerpon-W + Raging Bolt + Gking is just really nice asw.

https://pokepast.es/b4d95daa44bb1bfa <- Hit a peak of 1982 w/ this team a couple months ago. Meow is very nice partner for Keldeo since it has a great MU vs the regen crowd Keldeo struggles with. Its also an excellent opener for Gambit as its good at luring Gambit's checks like Zama / Corv early, and either crippling them w/ Knock Off or putting the pressure on Corv with Axel + Rocks, forcing it to expend Roosts & making it tougher for it to beat Gambit later.

Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2450105871-ccudaelr1xknmehq9yjypijrxuwiiyapw?p2
Got a bit lucky w/ Low Kick crit, but the opps team pretty much had no switch-ins to Meow here. Most of their mons were fodder.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2453320616
This guy is a bot I think, but uh..... Meow kinda cooked here I think with the Gambit Lure & Pads really helped it break down Moltres.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451391364
Another Samu / Torn / Treads build where Meowscarada was a big threat throughout.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451987972
Snipes Garchomp with Axel, Knock's off Corv's Helmet, and almost breaks through the bird if Axel didn't miss.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2453326276-7584vo7gnh7svinlhejn2qfhdx8a16xpw?p2
I played pretty shit here, but Meow basically 6-0'd this team and still extracted a lot of value even with my poor play. Low Kick was so strong, it forced Kyurem Tera, still deleted Lando-T with Axel, etc.

I haven't been playing lately, but based on general meta conditions where we are seeing more Helmet Chomp / Torn-T / Ttar, etc, I feel like things have only gotten better for Meow. I think its being slept on. Same with Weavile. That mon is crazy broken.
 
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Magcargo said:
It is interesting to see at the generations tail-end, former OU mons that "fell off" like Tyranitar, Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Garchomp are seeing a resurgence. The impression I get is that this isn't entirely a fad and will likely last a while.
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Tyranitar's initial drop was honestly more than understandable. The removal of Pursuit back in SWSH did it no favors and kind of killed one of its main niches, which hurts when a lot of good Ghosts are running around the tier that it wants to deal with but can't. Forcing something like Gholdengo to Tera when it might not want to with the threat of trapping could have been neat tech, too. Gaining access to Knock Off in the DLCs didn't fix anything outright, admittedly, but it definitely makes up for it a bit. If you get T-tar in safely it's very easy to click Knock Off with little regard for planning and cripple or potentially outright KO something when boosted by Band and maybe Tera Dark on top of that, and Ting-Lu can't even switch in safely more than once because Low Kick does 70% minimum to the standard Careful spread. (The Zamazenta matchup does suck, but you might be able to pressure you opponent into bringing it out early and burn Dauntless Shield I guess?) Sandstorm chip is also quite helpful when Boots are so common to deny hazards.

Tornadus-T falling off for a bit still kind of surprises me because it got a nice little buff in Bleakwind Storm being more accurate STAB than Hurricane. You're still going to miss a bit cause 80% accuracy, but a higher hit chance is a higher hit chance and means Bleakwind is mathematically more consistent on landing damage even if Hurricane has higher BP. Tera is also nice because you were probably already running Boots and can easily swap types to something better defensively with little consequence since losing Spikes immunity isn't a factor. Otherwise it still does annoying Torn-T things like spam fast Knock Offs, Taunts, and U-turns and shurging off damage with Regenerator to continue harrassing you throughout a game.
 
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What are people’s thoughts on :zarude:?

For those who are unaware like a Dondozo, Zarude has recently been added to the Viability Rankings and moved up to C tier. This comes from the few impressive showings in OLT and SCL. The most notable of these is GXE ‘s match with Attribute where SD Zarude was used on a Sun team to make use of Leaf Guard + Synthesis with Tera to claim every kill.

Zarude also has unique qualities such as STAB Knock Off, and a slew of common resistances to Ghost, Dark, Ground, Grass, and Water. It also absorbs status with Jungle Healing, letting it 1v1 mons like Toxic Gliscor or G-Weezing if Zarude terastilizes. There’s alot of exploration for this mon that people may start partaking in since Zarude is now a BL knight. It has Trailblaze, Encore, and U-Turn. Zarude had matchups that range from solid to very good such as non-Spinner Treads, Hamurott, Ting-Lu, defensive Gholdengo, Mola, and Garganacl. The speed tier is really nice for Pecharunt, Kyurem, Lando, and offensive Zapdos. Could this be the next sleeper pick?
 
658Greninja said:
What are people’s thoughts on :zarude:?

For those who are unaware like a Dondozo, Zarude has recently been added to the Viability Rankings and moved up to C tier. This comes from the few impressive showings in OLT and SCL. The most notable of these is GXE ‘s match with Attribute where SD Zarude was used on a Sun team to make use of Leaf Guard + Synthesis with Tera to claim every kill.

Zarude also has unique qualities such as STAB Knock Off, and a slew of common resistances to Ghost, Dark, Ground, Grass, and Water. It also absorbs status with Jungle Healing, letting it 1v1 mons like Toxic Gliscor or G-Weezing if Zarude terastilizes. There’s alot of exploration for this mon that people may start partaking in since Zarude is now a BL knight. It has Trailblaze, Encore, and U-Turn. Zarude had matchups that range from solid to very good such as non-Spinner Treads, Hamurott, Ting-Lu, defensive Gholdengo, Mola, and Garganacl. The speed tier is really nice for Pecharunt, Kyurem, Lando, and offensive Zapdos. Could this be the next sleeper pick?
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Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)
 
cat111ca said:
Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)
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Obviously you’re entitled to your option, but its important to note that Zarude and Meowscarada perform different roles. Zarude is more of a sweeper/stallbreaker with incredible bulk while Meowscarada is a frail speedy pivot with utility and Ice coverage. Honestly LO Swords Dance might be a cool route to explore since at +2 it guarantees a one-shot on Kyurem, Pecharunt, Lando (with Power Whip) and can set up on passive teams with help from Tera + Jungle Healing. It can also power through non-Low Kick Gambit. +2 Pwhip 2HKOs bulky Gambit and Iron Head barely scratches Zarude’s health, thus it wins the exchange.
 
cat111ca said:
Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)
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Wrong. In Sun Zarude switches into Toxic Gliscor easily, boosts up, Knocks and sometimes sweeps. They work very differently. All Grass Dark Mons, despite having a terrible typing have their use. I personally order them in Viability like this: Meowscarada > Wo-Chien > Zarude > Brute Bonnet > Cacturne > Shiftry. That doesn,t mean any of them outclass others, though certainly using any non-Meowscarada one is quite hard.
 
cat111ca said:
Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)
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meow doesn't have bulk up or good natural bulk. zarude has both, plus a recovery move that removes burn and toxic. that gives it an exponentially better matchup into fatter teams that rely on consistent chip to make progress and status to stop sweeps. i can see zarude being an excellent fatbreaker with the right support, which meow can't do super well because its damage output is honestly just not that good
 
ScribeofRevocis said:
Speaking of grass-dark mons, do y'all think wochien has any real use in the tier?
I think it could be a niche check to some mons like pult, tusk, treads, etc, but the typing is really iffy.
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Nite check.
SD Waterpon check (+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 240-284 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). However, U-Turn one destroys you.
Decent vs Pult, some Rillabooms, Samurott, SD Gliscor, Excadrill, Garchomp. These are all Mons it usually doesn,t have to Tera against. With Tera (usually Poison, but Ghost, Water and Fairy are there too), it can check pretty much what it wants (among physical Mons).
Set to use:
Babosa Letal (Wo-Chien) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison / Fairy / Water / Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

That being said, it has big limitations. Typing is terrible, so its going to Tera in many battles. Special Mons (like CM Clef or NP Darkrai) can boost easily. Spikes Gliscor is going to land all Spikes, abusing pasivity. You can,t just slap this Mon on whatever team and expect it to work.
 
Babosa Letal (Wo-Chien) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison / Fairy / Water / Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
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Interesting set
I thought something like leech seed + protect might be usable on this but I'll trust you lol. I might try and build around it at some point, but it seems kind of difficult to
I kinda dislike mons that are so weak to uturn (literally just hoopa and this) because like half of what you could hypothetically check just ohkoes you and gets free momentum while you just lose a mon
I can see this work decent with like, moltres/Zapdos or other contact punishing mons thou
 
This is not the thread for public discussion of ladder bots and any questions can be directed towards my PMs. Please do NOT bump this thread on this topic.

I had a lot of people reach out to me ask about the topic and I wanted to let the people of the OU forum know I made a formal proposal about revising our tiering practices to add a "veto" option on tiering raises clearly impacted by ladder bots. The full proposal with discussion of why it is the best option, how it would work, and more can be found here.

I appreciate everyone who has previously reached out to me on this topic and thank you for your concern about our tiering process.
 
I know Finchinator has indicated that an OU Tiering Survey is coming soon and that Tera Blast will be on it, but I implore those who want action on Tera Blast (I am one of those people ftr) to not give Dragonite or Kyurem a low survey score 'cause they believe Tera Blast is the issue. Support for Tera Blast on OU Tiering Surveys has been declining over time, and I don't expect that to change with the upcoming survey, so giving Dragonite or Kyurem a low score 'cause you want action on Tera Blast would just be holding the metagame hostage for something that won't happen.

So I end this plea by asking players who want action on Tera Blast to not give Dragonite or Kyurem low scores in bad faith just 'cause you perceive Tera Blast to be the ONLY possible solution as the end result is just keeping the metagame stuck in its current place, and if you're unhappy with the meta, you should score Dragonite and Kyurem based on how unhealthy or broken you see them to be knowing that they can use Tera Blast and amp up their sweeping potential. Holding the meta hostage in hopes of your preferred choice of tiering action will not improve the meta.

I also thank Finchinator and this gen's OU Council, mainly Finch, for aggressively tiering SV OU given the abnormally high number of threats released this gen that in conjunction with Terastalization were crazy broken. The situation this generation required the highest number of bans in OU history, and they stepped up to the plate. I see Finchinator as being the best Tier Leader of any present or past OU metagame for being in-tune with the playerbase's needs and for massively increasing the transparency of OU council decisions. By comparison, if ABR were still the OU Tier Leader, we'd hardly get any bans.

Allowing Genesect into SM OU at the start of the gen was dumb given Genesect hadn't been nerfed going into it, and the only new long-term check to it was Magearna. Melmetal was really the only new check to it in SS OU with Heavy-Duty Boots weakening the power of hazards maybe justifying dropping it if you squint REALLY hard, but Genesect shouldn't be dropped to OU again unless it receives actual nerfs. In Gen 9, the datamine revealed Genesect losing Extreme Speed, Blaze Kick, Shift Gear, and Rock Polish, and that would justify an unban although Genesect wasn't available this gen.

So I'm happy with Finchinator and the OU Council's decision to not drop a whole bunch of previously banned Pokemon into SV OU at the start of the generation since it made no sense. Doing a more limited drop after the Indigo Disk update made much more sense since the best time to test previous Ubers would be at the point the meta was at its strongest in power level, not at its weakest. Finchinator is so more sensible than past OU Tier Leaders, and it shows in his decision-making and in his efforts to bring about the highest level of transparency any OU Council has had in terms of decision-making.
 
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Avira said:
I know Finchinator has indicated that an OU Tiering Survey is coming soon and that Tera Blast will be on it, but I implore those who want action on Tera Blast (I am one of those people ftr) to not give Dragonite or Kyurem a low survey score 'cause they believe Tera Blast is the issue. Support for Tera Blast on OU Tiering Surveys has been declining over time, and I don't expect that to change with the upcoming survey, so giving Dragonite or Kyurem a low score 'cause you want action on Tera Blast would just be holding the metagame hostage for something that won't happen.

So I end this plea by asking players who want action on Tera Blast to not give Dragonite or Kyurem low scores in bad faith just 'cause you perceive Tera Blast to be the ONLY possible solution as the end result is just keeping the metagame stuck in its current place, and if you're unhappy with the meta, you should score Dragonite and Kyurem based on how unhealthy or broken you see them to be knowing that they can use Tera Blast and amp up their sweeping potential. Holding the meta hostage in hopes of your preferred choice of tiering action will not improve the meta.
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we saw this song and dance play out with the gambit suspect already. people voted dnb against their actual beliefs about kingambit because they wanted a tera suspect instead, and we saw how that turned out. i have no confidence in the ability of this community to learn from its mistakes, but hopefully we can get our shit together this time and actually vote for something, honestly i'd take just about anything at this point, to happen
 
Hello how are you all doing?

I’d like to talk about punishes to passive lame stuff like :alomomola: and :slowking-galar:

AV mola is probably the most broken Pokémon in OU, because it is a free turn button against non ogerpon teams. Similarly, slowking-g clicks chilly button button and gets momentum back with very little risk to the user. Very cheap. It makes me so mad.

I’ve found :tatsugiri: with choice specs Tera dragon Draco Meteor to be a nice punish to this core.
Yes, tastugiri:
:sv/tatsugiri:
You come in on the fish, get storm drain, and then click the button and something dies as long as they don’t have a primarina or something. Seriously. It OHKOs AV slowking and AV mola. Then you get to click the rest of the game with your opps defensive wall blown open. Free moon blast/bitter blade for the rest of the game? Sure thing, boss. Like wth is this damage??

+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 20 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 502-592 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Tatsugiri Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Here’s a team to illustrate the concept:
:tatsugiri::enamorus::ceruledge::ursaluna::Samurott-hisui::araquanid:
https://pokepast.es/1015ab8a4982910d

Bait mola with samurott, ceru or enam, nab a KO with fish, and clean with whatever beats the hole. (This team is really bad btw)

What are some other nice punishes to this cheap style of gameplay that you have found?
 
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