Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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1LDK said:
Not for the hazard damage itself, but for the hazard removal

:Gholdengo: Blocks all
:Dragapult: (((and :Zoroark-Hisui: at the moment))) Blocks Spin
:Garchomp: punishes spin attempts
:Garganacl: (((and :Kingambit: if defiant))) punishes defog attempts
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:Great Tusk: :Ting-Lu: :Clodsire: :Garganacl: :Garchomp: :Torkoal: :Orthworm: :Meowscarada: :Glimmora: all set up rocks, spikes or both
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:Great Tusk: :Corviknight: :Scizor: :Talonflame: :Torkoal: :Hatterene: :Cinderace: :Glimmora: Remove hazards


(((I know there's more, but these are the popular ones)))
You will interact with these mons a lot in early/mid-game, therefore, I though having an overall neutral matchup for most of them would be better
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For a hot second there I was like "But why would we need Tera fighting for Hazard removal...?" and then the last line made sense.
However, some minor counterpoints in regards to some of these:
:gholdengo: - Dark blocks Shadow Ball, but both Dark and Fighting get nuked by MIR/Tbolt. Psychic/Psyshock/Focus Miss are all flip-flop between sets.
:dragapult: - Dark blocks Shadow Ball and Tera Ghost TB. Neither of them care for a Dragon Darts/Draco Meteor, and the rest of Pult's set is 50/50.
:garganacl: - Not sure how this one entirely punishes Defog attempts... I wouldn't even be Defogging in its face (just speaking from my own experience.) Like, I guess maybe Block into Salt Cure, but I never see that set. Dark would also potentially give you an advantage over the Tera Ghost variant?
:kingambit: - This one actually makes sense for Tera Fighting. But Dark also has similar resistances to it, unless it carries Low Kick, or a variant of TB Fairy/Flying. Another one up in the air.

Out of this list... Tusk, Lu, Garg, Chomp, Meow, Glimmora, Scizor, Hat, and Cinder are all problems for you regardless. Chomp is USUALLY fairly passive, but offensive ones can give you trouble. Clod, debatably Tork, TFlame, Corvi, and Orth aren't all a super big deal, though. TFlame might be an annoyance if you get burned, but otherwise doesn't do too much.
 
SpritePony said:
Not sure how this one entirely punishes Defog attempts... I wouldn't even be Defogging in its face
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that's exactly why it punishes, since you cannot come in as he sets up again, you have to wait until he gets out, and depending on the matchup he can just enter again, this is extremely common on the Heatran vs Defog Lando of pasts gens for example, where Heatran couldn't set rocks in front of lando due to EQ, unless you were packing an Air Balloon or you were making ballsy plays

In the case that matters to us, no current defogger can defog in front of garganacl and or punish him too badly due to salt cure dealing a ton, Scizor has the best matchup with Bullet Punch, but even that can be blocked via protect or tera, meanwhile, spinners or Ace just so happen to have tools to deal with garga, via SE damage or attacking via the special side (((another reason why garganacl is broken)

SpritePony said:
TFlame might be an annoyance if you get burned, but otherwise doesn't do too much.
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Long Reach means that TF has to either W-o-W or just, you know, hit me with BB or Flamethrower, this is also convinient when pivoting out of on contact stuff

The fact of the matter is, maybe tera dark can be good with it, but idk
 
TIL that if you spin before getting a bulk up off on Tusk and a Torkoal comes in proto procs on speed as apposed to defence like I usually have it set up for.

I had no idea boosting moves interacted with proto that way, have people tested this in game to see that it actually works like that?
 
MrE said:
I had no idea boosting moves interacted with proto that way, have people tested this in game to see that it actually works like that?
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Proto will look for the highest stat at that moment (items included) and boost that stat
 
1LDK said:
Proto will look for the highest stat at that moment (items included) and boost that stat
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What do you mean by “items included?” I thought that it didn’t take into account things like the Choice items, which is how Specs Walking Wake is still able to get a Speed boost if it drops its Special Attack EVs, despite Specs making Special Attack its highest stat. The difference with something like Rapid Spin is that it changes the stage of the stat, and Protosynthesis takes that into account, but I don’t believe that it considers items the same way.
 
Goodbye & Thanks said:
What do you mean by “items included?” I thought that it didn’t take into account things like the Choice items, which is how Specs Walking Wake is still able to get a Speed boost if it drops its Special Attack EVs, despite Specs making Special Attack its highest stat. The difference with something like Rapid Spin is that it changes the stage of the stat, and Protosynthesis takes that into account, but I don’t believe that it considers items the same way.
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Now that I think about it, I'm wrong because if items were included then everybody would run scarf, my bad :skull:
 
Goodbye & Thanks said:
What do you mean by “items included?” I thought that it didn’t take into account things like the Choice items, which is how Specs Walking Wake is still able to get a Speed boost if it drops its Special Attack EVs, despite Specs making Special Attack its highest stat. The difference with something like Rapid Spin is that it changes the stage of the stat, and Protosynthesis takes that into account, but I don’t believe that it considers items the same way.
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This, it takes in consideration stat buffs/debuffs, but not item boost like you pointed out, but for example if you have a speed boosting Valiant but there is a sticky web on your side Valiant will lose speed and then booster energy will boost one of the attacks.
Now, I'm not sure how the intimidate vs proto/Quark interaction works.
 
Goodbye & Thanks said:
What do you mean by “items included?” I thought that it didn’t take into account things like the Choice items, which is how Specs Walking Wake is still able to get a Speed boost if it drops its Special Attack EVs, despite Specs making Special Attack it’s highest stat. The difference with something like Rapid Spin is that it changes the stage of the stat, and Protosynthesis takes that into account, but I don’t believe that it considers items the same way.
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Correct, proto boost happens after stat change multipliers are applied, but before item multipliers (iirc). I'm sure its somewhere in the research thread.
 
Mega Breloom said:
This, it takes in consideration stat buffs/debuffs, but not item boost like you pointed out, but for example if you have a speed boosting Valiant but there is a sticky web on your side Valiant will lose speed and then booster energy will boost one of the attacks.
Now, I'm not sure how the intimidate vs proto/Quark interaction works.
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If I had to guess, it would rely on who outspeeds who, I think. If, say, two players switch into a Scarf Lando-T and a +Atk Proto Roaring Moon with Sun up, Lando's intimidate triggers before protosynthesis, so protosynthesis would likely then boost Roaring Moon's speed instead of attack. I'm sure its in the research thread, give me a second.

Edit: Yep, its based off of speed & turn order.
 
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You know, I just had a thought... Is Garganacl the Gen 9 equivalent of Gen 6's Talonflame?

Lemme explain for those not in the know; Early on in XY, Talonflame became obscenely popular because of Gale Wings. Gale Wings being permanent +1 priority to Flying moves made Talonflame both a threat in spamming +1 Prio Brave Bird and having +1 Prio Roost. People were sick of seeing it being spammed so often, and it eventually fell in usage as the metagame adapted to its existence. From Gen 7 onward, Talonflame required full HP to get +1 priority to Flying moves.

Here's where Garg comes in. We all know Garg's kit and how obnoxious it can be to deal with. But now that the metagame is developing, and see it be less and less prevalent as time goes on (as noted by SPL), is it fair to say that Garg is our Gen 6 TFlame?
 
SpritePony said:
You know, I just had a thought... Is Garganacl the Gen 9 equivalent of Gen 6's Talonflame?

Lemme explain for those not in the know; Early on in XY, Talonflame became obscenely popular because of Gale Wings. Gale Wings being permanent +1 priority to Flying moves made Talonflame both a threat in spamming +1 Prio Brave Bird and having +1 Prio Roost. People were sick of seeing it being spammed so often, and it eventually fell in usage as the metagame adapted to its existence. From Gen 7 onward, Talonflame required full HP to get +1 priority to Flying moves.

Here's where Garg comes in. We all know Garg's kit and how obnoxious it can be to deal with. But now that the metagame is developing, and see it be less and less prevalent as time goes on (as noted by SPL), is it fair to say that Garg is our Gen 6 TFlame?
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ORAS meta adapted naturally to Talonflame without having to running specific counterplay against it, while the SR weakness + Brave bird recoil was an exploitable weakness that became bigger after M-Sableye ban. Garg's impact on the meta is still evident in teambuilding and there aren't a true downside while clicking Salt cure unless the opponent is running Convert cloak, but at the same point you already made your opponent waste that itemslot while Garg can still beat that mon depending on the set.
 
SpritePony said:
You know, I just had a thought... Is Garganacl the Gen 9 equivalent of Gen 6's Talonflame?

Lemme explain for those not in the know; Early on in XY, Talonflame became obscenely popular because of Gale Wings. Gale Wings being permanent +1 priority to Flying moves made Talonflame both a threat in spamming +1 Prio Brave Bird and having +1 Prio Roost. People were sick of seeing it being spammed so often, and it eventually fell in usage as the metagame adapted to its existence. From Gen 7 onward, Talonflame required full HP to get +1 priority to Flying moves.

Here's where Garg comes in. We all know Garg's kit and how obnoxious it can be to deal with. But now that the metagame is developing, and see it be less and less prevalent as time goes on (as noted by SPL), is it fair to say that Garg is our Gen 6 TFlame?
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Mega Breloom said:
ORAS meta adapted naturally to Talonflame without having to running specific counterplay against it, while the SR weakness + Brave bird recoil was an exploitable weakness that became bigger after M-Sableye ban. Garg's impact on the meta is still evident in teambuilding and there aren't a true downside while clicking Salt cure unless the opponent is running Convert cloak, but at the same point you already made your opponent waste that itemslot while Garg can still beat that mon depending on the set.
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This, Garganacl is way harder to check overall than TF

I know It's probably not gonna be broken anymore if we get more hazard removal and more special attackers, but I would have loved to see it gone in this meta, I can make a 10 paragraph rant again but not in the mood

at this point, I just gave up the idea of a Garganacl quickban, let alone a suspect test, at least :Chesnaught: is gonna hard counter him, so I'll live
 
Indeed, Salt Cure is one of the most broken "Poison statuses" we have ever had. It hits you, it deals damage until you switch, it hits specific types even harder, and it's only immunities are specific abilities or Covert Cloak, an item likely created taking Salt Cure into account. Sure it helps against random Ice Beam/other move secondary effects, but you know Garganacl's shadow is there when your mon is holding that cloak.
 
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Ast0rga said:
Indeed, Salt Cure is one of the most broken "Poison statuses" we have ever had. It hits you, it deals damage until you switch, it hits specific types even harder, and it's only immunities are specific abilities or Covert Cloak, an item likely created taking Salt Cure into account. Sure it helps against random Ice Beam/other move secondary effects, but you know Garganacl's shadow is there when your mon is holding that cloak.
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Yeah my thoughts exactly, I feel like Knock Off + Toxic Spike Stack + Salt Cure + Protect stall can be very annoying especially with the imminent removal of Walking Wake. I think Nacl is definitely manageable in OU like it doesn't make much noise. I just think it's unhealthy.
 
Agreed with all the above. Nothing really changed super drastically about Gen 6's meta, and Talonflame didn't need some hidden until then strat to deal with it. It was more like everyone realized "Hey, when this thing blows up it's great, but it's actually harder to do that than I thought and everything they add makes it worse, this isn't worth the trouble actually". I can't imagine a universe where we all suddenly realize Garganacl isn't as good as we think it is and it stops being relevant in OU.
 
Out of curiosity for def spread for h-zoroark if going 252 spatk/252 speed, is it better to put the last 4 points in phy defense or sp defense or does it matter?
 
Mikegengsta said:
Out of curiosity for def spread for h-zoroark if going 252 spatk/252 speed, is it better to put the last 4 points in phy defense or sp defense or does it matter?
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It doesn't matter THAT much, but I generally like the 4 EVs in Defense just to possibly, potentially, perhaps live a stray priority move or U-Turn or something.

It's also partially a force of habit from back in the Genesect days so Download isn't buffing its U-Turn/ESpeed.
 
Dreadfury said:
It doesn't matter THAT much, but I generally like the 4 EVs in Defense just to possibly, potentially, perhaps live a stray priority move or U-Turn or something.

It's also partially a force of habit from back in the Genesect days so Download isn't buffing its U-Turn/ESpeed.
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Yeah that makes sense. I thought reg defense for u-turn damage and such but who knows. Much can be said for volt switch haha
 
In light of Walking Wake, I have actually come to the realization that Specs Glimmora is almost impossible to switch into.
:sv/Glimmora:
Glimmora @ Choice Specs
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground/Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Earth Power
- Spikes/Mortal Spin/Energy Ball/Veno Shock
With Sludge Bomb/Wave, Power Gem, and Earth Power on a Modest Specs set, Glimmora has almost nothing that can switch into it. With all the Pokemon currently in OU, only Ting-Lu and Air Balloon Gholdengo are able to switch into Glimmora safely, both only being temporary solutions to Specs Glimmora. Ting-Lu being withered away by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, stat drops, Energy Ball, and lack of reliable recovery. Or Glimmora can Terastallize into a Grass type to resist Ground while turning the just under 2HKO Energy Ball into a clean 2HKO.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 202-238 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Glimmora Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 302-356 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, here is how much Gholdengo takes from Power Gem
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 116-137 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Gholdengo is nearly on death's bed from a resisted Rock move, and can't switch in again since Glimmora can just Earth Power next time if it wanted too.
Don't think about using Orthworm either. It gets crushed by Power Gem as well.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm: 174-205 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And tbh this also got me thinking a bit.
What if Choice Band and Choice Specs are the problematic element that pushes tons of Pokemon over the edge? One thing I have noticed is that tons of Pokemon that have gotten banned in recent years are all Pokemon who abused Choice sets as their main or one of many sets they run. It's even more apparent now. I thought of this because here, Choice Specs can make a Pokemon like Glimmora into something with only 1 thing that can really safely switch in. Even Pokemon that should be able to safely switch into it fail to do so, like Orthworm.
Which kind of brings me to another point. That being Choice Specs/Band making it so wrong predictions are more rewarding, despite the being locked in drawback, with the exception of immunities.

Like let's say you switch your Iron Treads into Choice Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor. Sounds pretty good, right? Well yes and no.
Compared to Choice Specs Shadow Ball, that Draco Meteor is a possible 4HKO after Stat drops. However, with that Choice Specs boost, that Draco Meteor from Dragapult took way more out of Iron Treads than you'd like, even more than non-choice specs Shadow Ball
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 145-172 (37.7 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So with all the power of Choice Specs, you sometimes end up doing way more progress to the opponent while making the wrong move, than sometimes when you make the right move without Choice Specs (though most cases are not this extreme). The exception of course is immunities. If say you switched a Fairy type into Dragapult using Draco Meteor, that Dragapult would be in a lot of trouble. But if you think about it, how often do you see a Pokemon that switches in through immunities, and doesn't already force a switch anyways? Like if your Fairy type is Tera Garg, what would non-Choice Dragapult do besides U-turn (aka just switching out with extra steps)? More often than not, a Pokemon that can switch into a move while taking 0 damage is usually gonna force out what's in front of them. But when a Choice Pokemon is the one being forced out, its one that made way more progress or potentially made more progress. Dragapult would have done way more damage with Choice Specs Flamethrower against Fairy Garg than with any other item.

I don't expect this post to be a kick starter to having Choice Specs/Band to be banned, but I do think it's something worth discussing and is interesting.
 
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