Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[SpritePony]

I just took a look at my old ORAS save file and played a couple of Wifi matches with what I had laying around on it... Looking at my old Pokemon, holy hell what was I on??? So many of my sets were terrible, I had little to no hazard control, and just everything was all over the place. I must have been a "shotgunner" type of player -- build a team and just go for it, everything else be damned. That's the only sense I could make of it...

Now in SV I build and play one hell of a lot differently because of the prevalence of various annoying Pokemon. I didn't even play in SMUSUM, and my only Gen 8 experience was BDSP (where my current style originates from.) How was I THIS bad of a player at 19???

 

[njnp]

Illusion Of Broken
​

This is a weird meta currently. We have a lot of borderline broken pokemon running amuk but they simply don't reach the uncompetitive heights that pokemon such as Palafin and Chi-Yu gave us. I'm only gonna focus on 4 pokemon in particular (Volcarona is just broken, no need to include).

Walking Wake

Gargancl

Iron Valiant

Gholdengo

I feel all the pokemon above cause a true disservice to the metagame but they by themselves are not overwhelming as a singular entity. These pokemon have put the metagame in a box. I feel we find ourselves feeling the need to remove one of them so we can have a breath of fresh air in a suffocating meta. These pokemon feel broken at times, but are they truly? We are in a generation where stall was skinned bare but still is able to Peak #1 consistently. We are in a generation where a pokemon in W6 of SPL, Great Tusk had 77% usage and it isn't viewed as centralizing or ban-worthy in the community. We are in a generation where pokemon can come back from the dead with revival blessing. The power creep is real and it's here to wake us up.

Walking Wake is currently being suspected. It made such an immediate impact that was startling & unexpected so much so we forgot to suspect Volcarona. It has caused the metagame to revolve around Sun once again. We experienced this earlier in the generation with Chi-Yu, the council made sure to throw the fish into ubers and in return game freak gifted them a water dragon that gets stronger in sun. We have went from Clodsire being oblivious to the metagame to now absorbing all it can to find its place in this metagame. Wake is a weird one because It has yet to make a significant impact/put on an amazing show in tournament play yet its presence is heavily felt with Rotom's going from physical defense to special defense, Slowking becoming a top 5 pivot, and players realizing there is a reason why we don't know use Gastrodon. In practice, I haven't seen Walking Wake make its presence felt consistently on the battlefield but in the builder it is deafening.

Gargancl (just use Covert Cloak) very rarely accomplishes nothing in a battle. Its donkey kong appearance probably should have it be a fan favorite and not a thorn in the side of many players. Garganacal can be a wall, hazard setter, trapper, & sweeper. It has the ability to physically and specially wall whatever your team has issues with. It is an amazing glue and thanks to terastallization it is able get rid of its crippingly typing whenever it's necessary. Gargancl forces most teams to either have a way to phase it out with hazards to wear down its recovers/force it to recover so you can get the pokemon that pressures it in safely or run covet cloak so its 24 pp move doesn't wear down your entire team to the point its teammates does the rest. It is probably the tamest out of the 4 pokemon discussed in this post but its presence in the metagame can't be ignored and can easily have you deleting a build you liked and thought was perfect. We would not use covert cloak if it wasn't around and this pokemon amplifies any users problem with terastallization in my opinion.

Iron Valiant this pokemon is practically able to 6-0, reverse 6-0, or just break your team down 1 by 1 with ease. This post isn't reactionary to me getting dropped off by @Lily. It simply is what it does and has done it at the very start of the metagame to now. Iron Valiant is able to break your team down with a various of sets and combinations that would take longer to list than my game vs Lily. SD (Booster), CM (Booster), Choice Specs, Choice Scarf along with people able to pick the right terastallization that benefits whatever set they wanna use. It doesn't really have an actual pokemon that counters all its various sets that we've desperately started using red card counter play to slow it down as best as possible (only issue is your amoonguss red card won't activate if you're dead to tera psychic +2 zen headbutt). Iron Valiant is able to be a cleaner, speed control, & breaker all in one at times. Unlike Wake we've seen Valiant consistently dig its heals in and put on a show. With the ban of Espathra this is probably the best pokemon currently that benefits from shed tail as well. It's very rare this pokemon doesn't put in work for your team.

Gholdengo is an interesting case. We're in such an offensive metagame and its partly to blame for that, but because of this its most overwhelming set nasty plot (whatever tera that benefits your team) is unable to overwhelm the opponent, and its in the back hoping it can do its job in checking a booster Iron Valiant. Its typing and ability still has made hazard stack what it is this generation (along with game freak giving everything hazards) It is able to accomplish so much with scarf and keep prominent threats in this metagame in check. It is the most popular covet cloak user and generally can overwhelm most Gargancls. Gholdengo is able to exist on every playstyle from Hyper Offensive to Stall. It can transform into essentially any role you need for you team other then hazard setter (thank god). Pivoting back to Gholdengo its nasty plot set is truly menacing for most balances to face and can have bulky offenses reeling back with a nicely timed tera.

We have a lot on our hands in this metagame. We're overwhelmed with so much to prepare for in this metagame, I feel we find ourselves craving the need to remove something off the table to make something easier to deal with. I didn't even mention Dragapult, Kingambit, and Volcarona in this post which all in their own right could have been included. This metagame seems to be destined to be centered around weather/terrain wars the way game freak has set things up. Similar to how Generation 5 was weather wars, Generation 6 was mega wars, Generation 7 was tapu wars (now gliscor, toxapex wars), and how Generation 8 was the introduction of Dynamax Heavy Duty Boots. We seem to keep attempting to derail the inevitable. I personally feel nothing I listed today by itself is singularly too much but the culmination of these pokemon has given the Illusion Of Broken.

 

[Magcargo]

Iron Valiant this pokemon is practically able to 6-0, reverse 6-0, or just break your team down 1 by 1 with ease. This post isn't reactionary to me getting dropped off by @Lily.

Actually, now that you mention it, I think CM Iron Valiant just does pretty well vs the standard stall variants. I saw a battle almost exactly like this the other day, where a stall team with almost the exact same structure got completely wiped by CM Booster energy Valiant, which is kinda interesting to think about seeing as that set seems like its meant to crush Offense.

I do agree with your post's main point, but I think something else to think about is that removing any one Pokemon from the metagame will make other threats more difficult to check and potentially broken as well. For example, Gholdengo imo can feel very restrictive to fight against, but at the same time it feels like a necessary evil due to its ability to keep other somewhat restraining forces like Dragapult, certain Garganacl variants, Iron Valiant, etc. in check depending on which set it runs. Similarly, Garganacl and Kingambit also feel overwhelming at times, but keep Dragapult and Goldengo in check (Garg needs the right Tera Type for Ghold though). Adds to that feeling of the metagame being one big box, y'know.

 

[Soiramio3000]

That's why you don't commit to it without clearing the resists first, lmao. Dragon Breath is trash. At least use Draco Meteor.

this isn't gen 5 anymore.
dragmag is no longer a viable strategy.
good luck getting rid of both fairies and steel types on the current meta.

dragon breath has a good chance of causing paralysis, so I think that it is better to use it as utility instead of the raw power of draco meteor.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Gholdengo

I don't think that the community sees gholdengo as "broken".
most of the community voted against tiering action for gholdengo.

 

[Dhrabb]

this isn't gen 5 anymore.
dragmag is no longer a viable strategy.
good luck getting rid of both fairies and steel types on the current meta.

dragon breath has a good chance of causing paralysis, so I think that it is better to use it as utility instead of the raw power of draco meteor.

What utilities will it give you though? Fairies switch into it regardless and a lot of the steels in the meta don't care that much about paralysis. You'd rather deal more damage to neutral/super effective targets with Draco Meteor. Besides, getting rid of checks so that your threat can do work is one of the main aspects of competitive pokemon.

 

[SpritePony]

this isn't gen 5 anymore.
dragmag is no longer a viable strategy.
good luck getting rid of both fairies and steel types on the current meta.

dragon breath has a good chance of causing paralysis, so I think that it is better to use it as utility instead of the raw power of draco meteor.

lmfao. It's not hard to clear Steels or Fairies. The only Steel that is hard to clear is Gholdengo, and the only somewhat problematic Fairy is Valiant.

 

[pika pal]

lmfao. It's not hard to clear Steels or Fairies. The only Steel that is hard to clear is Gholdengo, and the only somewhat problematic Fairy is Valiant.

Hatterene does exist at least and Tera Fairy is worth acknowledging, but the latter is specifically because Dragons would run over most teams if they didn't have it prepared, so it speaks more to the importance of Dragon power than deters it.

 

[SpritePony]

Hatterene does exist at least and Tera Fairy is worth acknowledging, but the latter is specifically because Dragons would run over most teams if they didn't have it prepared, so it speaks more to the importance of Dragon power than deters it.

Yep, and even if that were an issue, Iron Treads, Magnezone, Scizor, and Gholdengo all exist to bop it.
If you want to be extra fun, Dragalge also exists to bop them with Adaptability Poison moves.

 

[YNM]

this isn't gen 5 anymore.
dragmag is no longer a viable strategy.
good luck getting rid of both fairies and steel types on the current meta.

Fairies are almost non-existent in this meta, besides Hat and Valiant, and 90% of Dragon types out there can learn either Fire moves or Eq to deal with annoying Steel types, if they're really a problem for your team.
Anyways, regardless of the generation a good STAB+Specs boosted Draco will always be threatening, and the same applies to physical equivalents, which is why Bax with Glaive Rush is such a powerful and menacing mon in the current meta.

 

[awyp]

Just got reqs and one thought to all the Sun teams being ran:

Curse Block Nacl.

When you see the opposing team has a Torkoal, it usually feels safe to stay in one turn and either setup Rocks / Rapid spin, once it stays in on Nacl because it wouldn't want to switch directly out to Walking Wake and take the 25% damage from Salt Cure, it stays in to play around and try to get Walking Wake out safe.

By Blocking Torkoal, you keep setting up Curse, Lava Plume / Body Press doesn't do anything. You essentially stall out Sun turns and get to +4 on attack / def.

Set I've been running and have had success with:


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Salt Cure
- Recover

Really beats Sun teams very hard if pulled off correctly, Roaring Moon stops becoming a threat because of the defensive boosts and if Walking Wake is scarfed, it won't be doing a lot of damage.

 

[Togkey]

Just got reqs and one thought to all the Sun teams being ran:

Curse Block Nacl.

When you see the opposing team has a Torkoal, it usually feels safe to stay in one turn and either setup Rocks / Rapid spin, once it stays in on Nacl because it wouldn't want to switch directly out to Walking Wake and take the 25% damage from Salt Cure, it stays in to play around and try to get Walking Wake out safe.

By Blocking Torkoal, you keep setting up Curse, Lava Plume / Body Press doesn't do anything. You essentially stall out Sun turns and get to +4 on attack / def.

Set I've been running and have had success with:


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Salt Cure
- Recover

Really beats Sun teams very hard if pulled off correctly, Roaring Moon stops becoming a threat because of the defensive boosts and if Walking Wake is scarfed, it won't be doing a lot of damage.

Not denying that Garg takes a dump on Sun teams but I've seen way too many people say the Fire-type stays in vs the Rock-type which I just don't see anyone competent doing, especially given that Eject Button Hatterene (basically a Sun mainstay atm) makes for a completely free pivot into any tailor-made Garganacl check they have. Yes Sun teams need to adapt its embarrassing lol.

Sun mons (or mons that can fit on Sun builds) that should regularly beat Garg regardless of its Tera:
- Great Tusk
- Brute Bonnet
- Scovillain
- Other Proto mons that don't need their item or a forth move to function and can afford Cloak or Sub (Roaring Moon, Walking Wake, and Sandy Shocks)
- Sub Skeledirge and Hydreigon

Obviously you can slap a Covert Cloak on anything and call it a day, but Sun often can't fit these defensive pivots like Corv and Dondozo that use them best, just would be nice to see Sun teams remain relevancy even when Walking Wake gets banned, so I hope they diversify a bit and learn to beat their checks because Sun is so incredibly diverse this gen it doesn't really have any excuse (Beyond specific Garg and Dnite sets) imo.

 

[1LDK]

Really beats Sun teams very hard if pulled off correctly

This is why you don't run Body Press on Torkoal, you run Earth Power, and tera ground as optional, now you have a chance to actually 1v1 Garganacl even if you come out with very little health in the end
also another reason why garga is broken, fuck this shit

 

[Magcargo]

Not denying that Garg takes a dump on Sun teams but I've seen way too many people say the Fire-type stays in vs the Rock-type which I just don't see anyone competent doing, especially given that Eject Button Hatterene (basically a Sun mainstay atm) makes for a completely free pivot into any tailor-made Garganacl check they have. Yes Sun teams need to adapt its embarrassing lol.

Sun mons (or mons that can fit on Sun builds) that should regularly beat Garg regardless of its Tera:
- Great Tusk
- Brute Bonnet
- Scovillain
- Other Proto mons that don't need their item or a forth move to function and can afford Cloak or Sub (Roaring Moon, Walking Wake, and Sandy Shocks)
- Sub Skeledirge and Hydreigon

Obviously you can slap a Covert Cloak on anything and call it a day, but Sun often can't fit these defensive pivots like Corv and Dondozo that use them best, just would be nice to see Sun teams remain relevancy even when Walking Wake gets banned, so I hope they diversify a bit and learn to beat their checks because Sun is so incredibly diverse this gen it doesn't really have any excuse (Beyond specific Garg and Dnite sets) imo.

Corv is not a good cloak user imo, gets Knocked off too easily. That being said, I think its a great option on Sun teams from what I faced because it provids a reasonable switch-in to key threats like opposing Roaring Moons, Great Tusk, Glimmora, Breloom, etc. + has a slow U-Turn safely bring in Sun's own OP guys like Walking Wake. Usually the Sun Teams that pack Corv are the scarier ones to face imo because of the slow U-Turn + Defog being annoying for standard sun Counterplay.

 

[Alternator]

This is why you don't run Body Press on Torkoal, you run Earth Power, and tera ground as optional, now you have a chance to actually 1v1 Garganacl even if you come out with very little health in the end
also another reason why garga is broken, fuck this shit

Honestly, that's a win for the Garganacl player. Sun turns are running low, Torkoal is low health so it can only get one more chance to set sun, Garg has done exactly what you needed him to do.

 

[kingmickey27]

How much speed does Skelederge run these days? For a while, it always seems like Kingambit and Skeledirge (and to a lesser extent, Azumarill, Iron Hands, and Scizor) have been trying to one up each other.

Does it use now run 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe to outpace the neutral base 50 speed tier?

 

[awyp]

How much speed does Skelederge run these days? For a while, it always seems like Kingambit and Skeledirge (and to a lesser extent, Azumarill, Iron Hands, and Scizor) have been trying to one up each other.

Does it use now run 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe to outpace the neutral base 50 speed tier?

I have my Skele sets running from any where between 28-40 Speed EVs, I think anything more then that (not saying you can't) but it starts affecting it's defensive prowess. I think 200 Speed is kind of overkill honestly, I feel like Skele needs the bulk, where Gambit technically doesn't mind putting a bunch of EVs in Speed because it's naturally bulky.

 

[SpritePony]

How much speed does Skelederge run these days? For a while, it always seems like Kingambit and Skeledirge (and to a lesser extent, Azumarill, Iron Hands, and Scizor) have been trying to one up each other.

Does it use now run 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe to outpace the neutral base 50 speed tier?

I have my Skele sets running from any where between 28-40 Speed EVs, I think anything more then that (not saying you can't) but it starts affecting it's defensive prowess. I think 200 Speed is kind of overkill honestly, I feel like Skele needs the bulk, where Gambit technically doesn't mind putting a bunch of EVs in Speed because it's naturally bulky.

Y'all are dumping super hard into speed, good lord. I only put 4 points into Speed, lmao. Just enough to beat Orth and opposing Dirges.

 

[MegaScizor32]

Then I must be the only person in the world who hates this move and wants it banned. /s

Edit: Now that I've calmed down a bit, I can more coherently put my thoughts together.

I've played Pokemon since Gen 3, and I've at least played every generation except for 8 (since y'all don't count BDSP.) I've played against other players since the early days of Gen 4. There's actually very few things in Pokemon that piss me off, but boy howdy do they REALLY piss me off. Especially when playing on cart. Those things include, in order;
1. Revival Blessing. The most uncompetitive thing to be made since Evasion stacking was a thing. Yes, Dynamax was a thing, but I'd rather play a game with Dynamaxing than I would with Revival Blessing. It's so damn tilting to be trying to outskill and outplay an opponent and then you just see THIS bullshit. Remember all that hard work you put into putting down that one or two sweepers they have? Yeah, that thing is back for round two and you most likely don't have the ability to take it on again.
2. Sleep spam. Seriously, VGC/BSS kiddies and their fuckin' sleep spam. I wish GameFreak would just give us the damn option to have an in-game Sleep Clause, because hooooly shit. If they don't give us Drowsy and Frostbite over Sleep and Freeze, these kids are going to ruin everything.
3. Bad kiddies playing with what Smog community mostly agrees is busted. You know the crap, box legendaries, funni fish, cheem poo, the banned Paradoxes... All THAT fun stuff. At least with this, we see it in team preview and I can just nope out of the battle immediately.
4. Consistently getting haxxed. I mean, we all deal with this, so it's like... Whatever. Game was ruined because game wanted to be a jerk. But this is by far the lowest of things that tilt me to the point of not being able to think straight.

I know that Revival Blessing is on some mediocre mons, but that doesn't stop it from being wholly uncompetitive. It breaks the whole flow of the damn game that existed since Gen 1. When you put a mon down, it STAYS DOWN. You don't just whip out the Necronomicon and bring it back to life for round 2. It's such a bullshit, punishing thing to just watch some Hyper Offense player bring in Pawmot, click Revival Blessing, and now you lose because you can't deal with whatever they brought back because your check(s) to it are too weak at that point in the game. Or just gone.

Fuck Revival Blessing. Anyone who willingly uses it will forever be a degenerate in my eyes.

Thanks bro your rambling inspired me to create a team with revival blessing on it.

 

[awyp]

Revival Blessing is a very interesting topic because not really busted, but it's kind of overwhelming on how you use it. Like Sleep back in generation 4 was quite a hassle people would consider it overwhelming and that's why it got banned in Gen 5 (Sleep Moves Clause). I think when Home comes out there will be a lot complaints about it because it's very difficult to beat a mon that was a threat to your team once, but when you have to do that 2 times in a game it becomes quite a drag. The only thing that needs to be done is use Pawmot which has (339) speed against a slower mon, preferably a passive wall that can't do much like a Toxapex, Garganacal, Clodsire / or forcing a mon to switch out. The one thing about that move is that it doesn't bring back items that were used and your mon is only back to 50% health, but if it has a recovery move that fixes the issue.

I think Revival Blessing might be an issue in the future but right now I don't think people have issues with it, at least on this thread.

 

[viivian]

Guys I need some help, what EVs and moves do you usually run on your Hydreigon?

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot

pretty much the standard NP set this gen. tera steel allows it to set up on clodsire and ting-lu and gives it a fairy resistance that allows it to beat iron valiant and hatterene 1v1 and the other moves are just generally hard-hitting STAB moves, especially draco meteor since it breaks past even clodsire and blissey after enough boosts and/or chip damage

 

[Dhrabb]

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot

pretty much the standard NP set this gen. tera steel allows it to set up on clodsire and ting-lu and gives it a fairy resistance that allows it to beat iron valiant and hatterene 1v1 and the other moves are just generally hard-hitting STAB moves, especially draco meteor since it breaks past even clodsire and blissey after enough boosts and/or chip damage

Life orb really cuts into the longevity of that set, while not providing a power boost that's worth all the hp it takes imo. I prefer leftovers tbh.

 

[viivian]

leftovers over LO is definitely a viable option but i prefer the power boost since it allows hydreigon to 2HKO/OHKO pokemon that it wouldn't without the boost. like a +2 draco meteor doesn't guarantee the OHKO against toxapex whereas it would with life orb

 

[Athyestic]

leftovers over LO is definitely a viable option but i prefer the power boost since it allows hydreigon to 2HKO/OHKO pokemon that it wouldn't without the boost. like a +2 draco meteor doesn't guarantee the OHKO against toxapex whereas it would with life orb

Just a hypothetical, does Dragon Fang guarantee that OHKO? I can’t run the calcs right now but either Dragon Fang or Black Glasses seem like they might also be viable to power up Draco/Dark Pulse without cutting into Hydrei’s… limited longevity.

 

[viivian]

actually, it can! definitely worth using if longevity proves a problem for you (please give hydreigon roost back game freak i beg of you) but LO's universal power boost is still very valuable to have. dragon fang still provides a viable alternative to it however, especially when attempting to break past checks like blissey or clodsire since it doesn't chip itself down while doing so