Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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MANNAT

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Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire

Flutter mane is absurdly broken, its stat spread looks straight out of a minmaxed rom hack instead of a real Pokemon game. Tera Fighting protects you from Sucker Punches as well as Scizor Bullet Punch, basically protecting you from most of the priority you're going to be dealing with (Jet Punch kills you anyways). CM + Protosynthesis makes this thing a terrifying setup sweeper that can just mow down teams. Obviously, the item is one time use but that doesn't stop this thing from being terrifying. It can also run choice items or some other item on sun teams to make it even stronger.

houndstone.png

Houndstone @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects


parafin-hero.png

Palafin-Hero @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Flip Turn
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch

Slap this thing onto a rain team and watch it absolutely melt everything short of Water Absorb/Storm drain users, Jet Punch is super unfair and this thing in general is very reminiscent of Dracovish, though it doesn't have the combination of overwhelming power and speed on the same move like scarf rend used to. Regardless, this thing is pretty dumb and punishes the hell out of teams without EXTREMELY sturdy water resists, especially seeing as most people are setting tera types to resist sucker punch rather than jet punch.

The meta is absolutely a mess right now, there's multiple mons that absolutely should be banned in the next few days. Tera is such an annoying mechanic that turns half the turns into guessing games about tera types that you aren't even completely sure about until they come out. Tera letting offensive mons completely mitigate their weaknesses to priority and giving everyone adaptability on STAB attacks is just unfair and I don't think it has any place in this metagame, it feels way stronger than I even expected going into the release and I don't see any point in keeping it around.
 
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I was prepared to call for a ban on tera day 1 but I actually think is a really nice and fun gimmick that we should let stay at least until something clearly broken pops up. What I think needs to go are most if not all of the Protosynthesis/Quark Drive mons, they are beyond broken.
 
I've been playing around and sand seems fantastic this gen. Might just be because of the abundance of people on sun atm, but Hippowdon with Glimmora and roaring moon to back it up is pretty good as a core and mons like Kingambit and Scizor with stuff like sucker punch and really nice resits allows you to just take hits and punish any sort of setup moves.
 
Some of it is new toy syndrome and lots of people loading up on the new mons with their shared weaknesses/low defenses, but as I thought/hoped early on, priority spam is crazy strong (based on my small, 11 game sample size).

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Palafin-Hero @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Taunt

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Bulldoze

I honestly might go all out and put something incredibly dumb like Band Scizor on there, too, but these three mons (plus a meme Flamigo set!) have netted virtually all of my KOs. We'll see how it works if I ladder up more later today, but I may just play the actual game and wait to see what gets banned in the next couple weeks before I get too invested.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
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Been playing around with a few different HO's, and man, screens are busted.

My favourite user that I've found right now is Iron Valient:

:sv/iron_valiant:
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Agility
- Tera Blast

After an agility, you even outspeed quarked up Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, with very few things being able to take a +3 move from this fellow
 
I haven't played a lot, but I threw a lame more balance hazard stack team to try some things out. I feel like hazard stack might be pretty good, since I'm a very bad team builder but got a least a little bit of synergy going on.

I've been using ttar as both a stealth rock setter but also to push back sun. Clodsire is a good mon for having recover + toxic and toxic spikes. I found it to be an ok defensive answer to flutter with a poison move and poison tera.

Cyclizar seems good, but you have to run scarf rn otherwise flutter mane bodies it pretty hard. A fast shed tail is just like a slow pivot, since your sub usually gets busted as soon as you enter. It has some nice stuff like taunt, so once flutter leaves I might try a bulky set (chien pao is another issue, but it doesnt seem like it'll last long)

Once flutter mane gets banned, I might even try a cheeky dragon tail + hazard stack team LOL.

this is probably not that accurate, I'm not the best player out there, but I wanted to try to get more into comp this gen, so I hope its still something
 
Azumarill @ Mystic Water
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation
- Ice Spinner

Get this thing in with a slow Shed Tail Orthworm, drum up, Tera to boost your water moves further and then just kill everyone. I don't really know if Mystic Water is better than Sitrus Berry but they're both pretty good. Ice Spinner hits Water Absorb Clodsire.

I'll add some calcs here. When Azu is attacking I remove its water type and give the target -2 def, which I think shows the pseudo-Adaptability boost from Tera properly. I haven't done this in ages but hopefully it's right.
Palafin-Hero:
+6 252+ Atk Mystic Water Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Lumineon: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Jet Punch)
252 Atk Choice Band Lumineon Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 103-122 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Toxapex:
+6 252+ Atk Mystic Water Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Breloom:

+6 252+ Atk Mystic Water Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 305-359 (116.8 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 65-77 (16.1 - 19.1%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO

So, yeah. Can someone please tell me what the actual answers to this are? Besides just stopping Orthworm from shedding its tail in the first place, or setting Psychic Terrain.
 
I also imagine that, albeit I love it to bits, I will be force to play Ubers in order to play with it.
If it makes you feel any better, it's looking to be very strong there too.

I'm pleasantly surprised by how few problem child Pokemon there seem to be tbh. There's the obvious Chien-Pao and Flutter Mane, but I don't see any other Pokemon that stand out as problematic purely by themselves at the moment. It's mostly things in combination with terastal, and particularly getting coverage of types you wouldn't expect from Tera Blast.

I can see Shed Tail being uncompetitive for the same reason even non-chain use of Baton Pass was: it allows offensive Pokemon to gain the benefit of support moves without needing to sacrifice a move slot for it. It's less broad in its application than Baton Pass was, but it also requires less setup to do what it does. Arguably screens have a similar factor at play in a heavily offense based meta, but banning the most egregious offense mons should hopefully make that a problem that solves itself.
 
Some of it is new toy syndrome and lots of people loading up on the new mons with their shared weaknesses/low defenses, but as I thought/hoped early on, priority spam is crazy strong (based on my small, 11 game sample size).

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Palafin-Hero @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Taunt

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Bulldoze

I honestly might go all out and put something incredibly dumb like Band Scizor on there, too, but these three mons (plus a meme Flamigo set!) have netted virtually all of my KOs. We'll see how it works if I ladder up more later today, but I may just play the actual game and wait to see what gets banned in the next couple weeks before I get too invested.
Extremekiller Dragonite really does kill everything, and so does Breloom.
I think the main reason is that we don’t really have any good replacement for Lando T, Heatran and Ferrothorn at the moment. The good Intimidators we have at the moment are limited to Gyarados, Arcanine and Salamence, so realistically nothing is resetting Extremelkiller Dragonite's boosts once it starts to set up.

As for Breloom, there is not really any good absorber of Spore that doesn't die immediately to Mach Punch at the moment. I've seen like one Amoonguss so far, but it now dies to +2 LO Gunk Shot which is really funny. Doesn't help that some of the premier offensive threats in Chien, Chiyu, Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle all just die to a +0 Mach Punch. Cyclizar-based HO also falls apart completely once Breloom gets a SD going.

Also, have you tried Extremekiller Lucario? It's also kinda ridiculous once you get a SD up, because not even Fluttering Mane can switch in without eating a Bullet Punch to the face.
 
If it makes you feel any better, it's looking to be very strong there too.

I'm pleasantly surprised by how few problem child Pokemon there seem to be tbh. There's the obvious Chien-Pao and Flutter Mane, but I don't see any other Pokemon that stand out as problematic purely by themselves at the moment. It's mostly things in combination with terastal, and particularly getting coverage of types you wouldn't expect from Tera Blast.

I can see Shed Tail being uncompetitive for the same reason even non-chain use of Baton Pass was: it allows offensive Pokemon to gain the benefit of support moves without needing to sacrifice a move slot for it. It's less broad in its application than Baton Pass was, but it also requires less setup to do what it does. Arguably screens have a similar factor at play in a heavily offense based meta, but banning the most egregious offense mons should hopefully make that a problem that solves itself.
Yeah not many honestly, Valiant isn't problematic at the moment and neither is roaring moon or iron bundle, but those three could be getting the boot later on once things settle.

Bundle I am sure will get banned after things settle, as i see it being problematic later
 
Watching streams I imagine that Terra in its current form is just too much for the meta game to be healthy.

However, a surface level change I think would be worth trying if Terra is facing the chopping block in the coming weeks after things calm down is first just banning same type Terra. Every Pokémon getting access to essentially adaptability + a solid stab option in Tera Blast is ridiculous.

I want this mechanic to hang around because it seems like an extremely fun and diversifying aspect of the meta game. But I predict it will have some major tweaking to get it there, and even then it might be too much.
 
Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
ironvaliant.png


I'd like to talk about this set right here.
The Booster Energy allows Valiant to instantly activate its ability whenever it comes in, gaining +1 speed and currently outrunning every choice scarfer in the metagame.
Despite the fact that there are Pokemon who can outrun it with a Choice Scarf -- there are very obvious reasons as to why we do not see them in play (I.E that a potential scarf set is objectively worse than other sets.).
Once Iron Valiant gets a speed boost, it becomes nearly impossible to switch in on when it also gets a Swords Dance.
Corviknight can switch in on its moves, but without Brave Bird it's impossible to stop it from getting +4 or even +6.
Corviknight wants to be running Roost & Defog as it's one of the only viable defoggers with longevity in the tier, U-Turn to pivot and Body Press to deal damage.
Forcing Brave Bird on Corviknight makes it unable to pressure Pokemon like Iron Treads, Kingambit, Magnezone and Chien-Pao.
Other switch-ins to Iron Valiant exist, but, they're not very good on offensive teams (Such as Skeledirge, Clodsire and Slowbro.).

Also, a +2 Iron Valiant Close Combat cleanly OHKO's Corviknight with rocks up unless it's physically defensive;
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 376-444 (94 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lastly, Iron Valiant can simply Tera into Fairy and have the best defensive type in the game -- one neutral to Brave Bird too with double STAB Spirit Break if it chooses to run that.

TL;DR
Swords Dance Iron Valiant cannot be realistically dealt with by offensive teams and I think something should be done about it.
 
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G-Luke

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Built Stall Yesterday

https://pokepast.es/67018fb13485c15a

Stall is pretty fun, it's hard but you can try to make it work. Stall is not easy to pilot in Gen 9, the nerfs to Scald and Knock and recovery blows. But it's fun! Stall's biggest ops rn is surprisingly not Chien Pao or Flutter Mane or arguably even Roaring Moon. It's definitely shit like Iron Bundle, where your counterplay has to spin around multiple different threats. Facing Specs Terra Bundle in Rain absolutely ruined me. But yh, wish support is mandatory. Spin AND Defog is mandatory. You probably need multiple wincons to get the job done. Corviknight also sucks ass to face, as does Toxapex. But since everyone spams 6 offensive mons it's honestly going good. This build is obviously a reaction to the top threats, and genuinely crumbles versus balance builds, but the genuine shock, rage and despair of lower ladder players watching their +3 wallbreakers fail to break past a playstyle they thought they would never have to prep for brings me genuine joy.
 
Sandy Shocks @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Tera Blast
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

So this is a set for Pinchurchin teams, it boosts Speed after the boost.
 

ausma

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Sandy Shocks @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Tera Blast
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

So this is a set for Pinchurchin teams, it boosts Speed after the boost.
Small thing, but Protosynthesis only works with the sun!!!

Speaking of Protosynthesis (and not she-who-should-not-be-named)... Great Tusk also kinda a threat huh
 
Built Stall Yesterday

https://pokepast.es/67018fb13485c15a

Stall is pretty fun, it's hard but you can try to make it work. Stall is not easy to pilot in Gen 9, the nerfs to Scald and Knock and recovery blows. But it's fun! Stall's biggest ops rn is surprisingly not Chien Pao or Flutter Mane or arguably even Roaring Moon. It's definitely shit like Iron Bundle, where your counterplay has to spin around multiple different threats. Facing Specs Terra Bundle in Rain absolutely ruined me. But yh, wish support is mandatory. Spin AND Defog is mandatory. You probably need multiple wincons to get the job done. Corviknight also sucks ass to face, as does Toxapex. But since everyone spams 6 offensive mons it's honestly going good. This build is obviously a reaction to the top threats, and genuinely crumbles versus balance builds, but the genuine shock, rage and despair of lower ladder players watching their +3 wallbreakers fail to break past a playstyle they thought they would never have to prep for brings me genuine joy.
It's Chi Yu IMO. I just watched my Blissey get 2 hit by a specs flamethrower under sun. And its not like sun isn't going to see a ton of play, its literally pushing all the protosynthesis. Without sun, blissey can more or less handle Chi Yu, but right now there's just too many threats on a Protosynthesis team (Roaring Moon, Chi Yu, Slither Wing are all SUPER hard to handle when they're coming banded + ability boosted). Its a weather team while solving the weakness of coverage that plagued weather teams.

I'm not entirely sure what the core issue is, it may be torkoal lmao. Just the ability to enable all those boosts for free? Or it could just be that Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon are both capable of running on a sun team and both probably need a review for ubers (though obviously Mane faster than Moon). Just the multiplicative nature of band + inherent boost is a bit too much for any of the defensive mons to handle.

But yeah then Clodsire gets hit for 90% HP by a resisted CC from a band protosynthesis slither wing (and yes, Clod is weaker on the physdef side than should handle this but its 130 hp) and im not exactly sure if any of these boosts are reasonably something stall can stop.

There are definitely answers to stuff like Slither Wing so its not concerning on its face. Just we haven't had time to really peel back the issues and so speed currently is absolutely critical to prevent these attacks that can even oneshot a tanky mon.
 
Sandy Shocks @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Tera Blast
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt

So this is a set for Pinchurchin teams, it boosts Speed after the boost.
Protosynthesis is activated by sun, not by electric terrain.

On a separate note, CB Gallade has been fun to mess around with thanks to sharpness making it a nuke
 
Built Stall Yesterday

https://pokepast.es/67018fb13485c15a

Stall is pretty fun, it's hard but you can try to make it work. Stall is not easy to pilot in Gen 9, the nerfs to Scald and Knock and recovery blows. But it's fun! Stall's biggest ops rn is surprisingly not Chien Pao or Flutter Mane or arguably even Roaring Moon. It's definitely shit like Iron Bundle, where your counterplay has to spin around multiple different threats. Facing Specs Terra Bundle in Rain absolutely ruined me. But yh, wish support is mandatory. Spin AND Defog is mandatory. You probably need multiple wincons to get the job done. Corviknight also sucks ass to face, as does Toxapex. But since everyone spams 6 offensive mons it's honestly going good. This build is obviously a reaction to the top threats, and genuinely crumbles versus balance builds, but the genuine shock, rage and despair of lower ladder players watching their +3 wallbreakers fail to break past a playstyle they thought they would never have to prep for brings me genuine joy.
Question: why not use chansey over blissey in stall with the very limited knock off distribution?
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Question: why not use chansey over blissey in stall with the very limited knock off distribution?
Blissey can run Heavy-Duty Boots which is extremely helpful in a meta with very limited hazard removal options.

On that topic, I am really fond of Ghost-terastallize Gholdengo. Removing the Ground weakness goes a long way in the Great Tusk / Iron Treads matchup and those +2 Shadow Balls are really going to sting with the extra Tera bonus. Really like playing against those Clodsire/Gholdengo builds you see every now and then.
 
If any mon is banned before terastal, then they would have to be suspect tested again after terastal is banned, thus wasting time and resources. It's best to take care of the mechanic first, since terastal misrepresents viability of a lot of pokemon
On the flipside, I was hoping to see some actual defensive Terastalizing before canning it altogether, conventional walls as we used to know them are almost all gone. eg. Blissey can switch into non-Psyshock CM variants of Flutter Mane but it can't do much other than Shadow Ball since it lost Toxic -- quite possibly permanently. Same for Toxapex, it can switch in to stuff but it also lost Knock Off and Scald, so at best it can Toxic or Haze now.
With this generation's power level being so cracked I think defensive Terastalizing could give some reprieve as I genuinely fear that the OUBL list will be almost as long as OU's otherwise.

That said I'm a total amateur.
 
I think defensive Terastalizing could give some reprieve as I genuinely fear that the OUBL list will be almost as long as OU's otherwise.
You can only Terastalize one mon per team. One offensive mon can easily sweep an entire team once it Teras, but especially after the recovery nerf, there is no world where one Tera defensive mon can wall the opponent's entire team. Defensive Terastalizing is inherently worse than offensive Terastalizing, except on offensive mons themselves (why does a Tera'd mon keep STAB??). Also, without Tera, I really only think maybe 5 new mons tops will be BL by the end of the gen.
 
Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Volt Switch

In a metagame that is really lacking in answers to Flutter Mane, I think P-Donphan serves as a decent check to the CM variants. Volt Switch is also really good in easing predictions for switches, which helps teambuilding a bit
 
IMO the ice cat and the fire fish are unhealthy. And althought some Paradox Mons are already broken per se, the Energy Boost item is a flexible Inteprid Sword.
 
I'm not entirely sure what the core issue is, it may be torkoal lmao. Just the ability to enable all those boosts for free? Or it could just be that Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon are both capable of running on a sun team and both probably need a review for ubers (though obviously Mane faster than Moon). Just the multiplicative nature of band + inherent boost is a bit too much for any of the defensive mons to handle.
Yeah, I'm feeling a big problem with the Protosynthesis Pokemon is sun itself. It's too free to set up, and from there you just have a litany of threats that abuse it more than anything prior. Definitely see Flutter Mane needing a suspect: while it crumples to various physical priority, it also almost always forces a KO before you can revenge kill it. Undecided on Roaring Moon, however, particularly while Terastilizing is up in the air. Its movepool just doesn't serve it well imo and I think there's more options to take it on defensively.

On the flip side, the only Quark Drive Pokemon I really see as super dangerous is Iron Bundle. It's got similar problems as Flutter Mane in being super fast and hitting super-hard with a great movepool, but without the physical weaknesses. It's not a fun Pokemon to fight.

Speaking of priority that kills Flutter Mane, however, I've figured out the tech for Ceruledge that I think is gonna keep it if not in OU then in UU or BL.

Ceruledge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat

This is super easy to setup and support, be it with screens, Shed Tail, and/or hazards. It's basically Blacephalon crossed with Mega Scizor, only without the need for Roost as it has Bitter Blade instead. Shadow Claw is of course another option, but I like Sneak both for the current Flutter Mane threat and to keep ahead of Jet Punch/Aqua Jet users.
 
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