Aside from Palafin and Chien-Pao, what else are on the radar for ban? Roaring Moon, Iron Bundle, Iron Valiant? There's also Cyclizar but that's due to Shed Tail which is kinda different.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I don't think Espeon is worth running when Hatterene exists. I have it on good authority that Hatterene is quite good in this meta, which would make sense considering the value of Magic Bounce, though at least from my own testing it's been pretty mediocre. Worth testing more though.
I understand the sentiment, and I definitely see it becoming a problem next generation if the trend continues. But for right now, with what's both on the table and what's coming up, there's still opportunity to right the ship closer to something stable and interesting rather than a pure slugfest. It's different for sure, but as a very experienced Gen 6 player, I foresee this meta turning close to that one. Megas were their own form of heavy power creep that really shifted the table, a leap away from the awkward step forward I think of Gen 5 as. Threats like Mega Zard X, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, and Mega Metagross all have high BSTs in conjunction with great movepools and abilities. There were also those who needed bans to make that meta stable and defense even viable, such as Mega Salamence and Mega Lucario. With those gone, Gen 6 has since long become a meta with a focus on offense over balance or stall overall, being much easier to play that way. Yet by no means did that completely kill balance/stall, it just meant those archetypes needed more specific builds. I think it's just jarring, after Gen 8 settled so damningly evenly over the course of YEARS, to go back to a meta where a. there's high-power offensive threats that need to be banned again, and b. where defensive Pokemon aren't as good immediately. With time, we are going to see those necessary builds come out of the woodwork for more defensive and balanced play again.
Yet the true make-or-break difference I really foresee is not the nerfs to recovery and hazard removal, but the lack of very staple other Pokemon that we know will come regardless. The likes of Landorus-T, Tornadus, and Mew (as well as post-6 additions such as Alola Muk and Galarian Slowking) are very likely to further help right the ship. When those arrive, balance will certainly come back into fashion again fully. The game is admittedly being rugpulled towards offense, but the tools to prevent a total shift out of traditional structure imo aren't completely gone, at least yet. They just... need time (perhaps that is the most on-the-nose statement for SV as a whole, both in competitive and as games). When they click, and they will, you'll see more diversity again, and more of a traditional Smogon-style game.
What makes Iron Valiant worthy of ban talk? I've seen that sentiment a lot but never had that much problem with it on the ladder. It isn't something I even consider when team-building as it gets checked by poison and ghost, of which there is quite a lot of right now.
Makes me wonder when SV UU will start being a thing
Espeon is just too frail and doesnt do enough in this meta to be seriously considered imho. It hasn't been OU since XY for a reason. It's simply overwhelmed by faster, stronger threats and doesn't do enough damage without some CM boosts, and can't seem to find the right oportunities to setup, even with the prospect of tera-fairy / fighting.
Sylveon however seems to be a better CM eeveelution, while Hatterene seems to be a better bouncer, with a niche in Trick Room teams at least.
There’s going to be a new radar tonight or tomorrow — stay tuned to find out
If not for OU I can see Espeon being used as a solid CM user in UU or even RU if UU appears to be suitable for Espeon
I'm someone who likes tera the more he uses it, and I thought maybe I'd put my two cents as to why.
The fact that games are unpredictable in a new dimension is definitely something I can appreciate. I've definitely lost my fair share of games because roaring moon tera flying'd and lived an incoming fighting type attack just to set up and sweep. Or because Palafin tera fighting'd and lived a grass type move that was supposed to kill it. I can see how, in isolation, that could feel frustrating and cheap. Especially when we've never seen anything like this in the game.
But, on the other hand, I think people are ignoring the strategic merit that comes from building tera types into your team to plan for common situations that give your team trouble.
I don't know how people are using tera. It sounds like most people are using it offensively (i.e. tera into a current stab, tera to give a new move stab, tera to resist priority). I've done that too. But I've also used it a lot defensively. In the past, if I built a team with a ground or electric weakness, I'd have to fix the team and swap members around. But now I can situationally give myself those immunities on my defensive core if this game might be good for it. And I've found that calculation incredibly satisfying to figure out. I love how I can choose if I want to turn my wall breaker into a nuke and play fast, or sturdy up my defenses and play slow, all based on what I think my opponent is going to do.
I think someone else already pointed this out as well, but we have uncertainty in pokemon already. Z moves, for example, are a way more high variance mechanic than I think singles players give it credit for (though I find VGC players recognize this a little easier).
In gen 7, gastrodon beats Heatran 99.99% of the time. But sometimes, the Heatran has grass Z + solar beam, and just like that there's a gaping hole in your defensive core. I was playing some Gen 7 in Smogon Tour and I remember losing my rain setter to a Slowbro that was psychic Z. Torn-T would wall Kartana at +2 90% of the time, but if it was normal Z with giga impact it was over.
Or if we want to go earlier, I can't count how many times I've lost my landours-T in gen 5 because some random thing had hidden power ice. Or a Swampert in gens 3 and 4 because a random thing had hidden power grass. Not to mention losing a game because a mon had scarf or sash on something that normally doesn't carry it.
Are these not also incredibly high variance, game reversing, and frustrating mechanics? And yet, I think we all agree that the competitive merit of being able to build teams around this stuff and plan for these interactions in advance is worth it.
I guess that's just where I'm at with tera. I just don't think it's as one dimensional as people are saying. Obviously I'm not a top 100 player, or even a top 500 player, so maybe there's something huge I'm missing. But in my mind I can't find what about tera sets it apart from uncertainty we already have, other than the fact that it's the new gimmick and, thanks to dynamax, we've set the precedent for banning gimmicks.
I'd also like to repeat other people's calls for civility. I think maybe there are new people here who might be a little younger? It's just pokemon. And it's not even the official competitive format for pokemon. It's just a hobby that we're all trying to make as strategically interesting as possible. There's no need to get mad at people or insult them
The fact that games are unpredictable in a new dimension is definitely something I can appreciate. I've definitely lost my fair share of games because roaring moon tera flying'd and lived an incoming fighting type attack just to set up and sweep. Or because Palafin tera fighting'd and lived a grass type move that was supposed to kill it. I can see how, in isolation, that could feel frustrating and cheap. Especially when we've never seen anything like this in the game.
But, on the other hand, I think people are ignoring the strategic merit that comes from building tera types into your team to plan for common situations that give your team trouble.
I don't know how people are using tera. It sounds like most people are using it offensively (i.e. tera into a current stab, tera to give a new move stab, tera to resist priority). I've done that too. But I've also used it a lot defensively. In the past, if I built a team with a ground or electric weakness, I'd have to fix the team and swap members around. But now I can situationally give myself those immunities on my defensive core if this game might be good for it. And I've found that calculation incredibly satisfying to figure out. I love how I can choose if I want to turn my wall breaker into a nuke and play fast, or sturdy up my defenses and play slow, all based on what I think my opponent is going to do.
I think someone else already pointed this out as well, but we have uncertainty in pokemon already. Z moves, for example, are a way more high variance mechanic than I think singles players give it credit for (though I find VGC players recognize this a little easier).
In gen 7, gastrodon beats Heatran 99.99% of the time. But sometimes, the Heatran has grass Z + solar beam, and just like that there's a gaping hole in your defensive core. I was playing some Gen 7 in Smogon Tour and I remember losing my rain setter to a Slowbro that was psychic Z. Torn-T would wall Kartana at +2 90% of the time, but if it was normal Z with giga impact it was over.
Or if we want to go earlier, I can't count how many times I've lost my landours-T in gen 5 because some random thing had hidden power ice. Or a Swampert in gens 3 and 4 because a random thing had hidden power grass. Not to mention losing a game because a mon had scarf or sash on something that normally doesn't carry it.
Are these not also incredibly high variance, game reversing, and frustrating mechanics? And yet, I think we all agree that the competitive merit of being able to build teams around this stuff and plan for these interactions in advance is worth it.
I guess that's just where I'm at with tera. I just don't think it's as one dimensional as people are saying. Obviously I'm not a top 100 player, or even a top 500 player, so maybe there's something huge I'm missing. But in my mind I can't find what about tera sets it apart from uncertainty we already have, other than the fact that it's the new gimmick and, thanks to dynamax, we've set the precedent for banning gimmicks.
I'd also like to repeat other people's calls for civility. I think maybe there are new people here who might be a little younger? It's just pokemon. And it's not even the official competitive format for pokemon. It's just a hobby that we're all trying to make as strategically interesting as possible. There's no need to get mad at people or insult them
Okay so I read through your post a few times and I have to say that I agree fully on most of your points. I guess my perspective as a new guy is different, as I believe that we are still in a point where the meta has to be experienced. Thank you for the high effort answer on my points btw
I've been having fun with a hail team that I made, so I want to talk about the overall usage of hail.
I haven't really noticed any hail teams or discussion of hail, which I think is because there are not a lot of abusers of hail. One interesting thing that I noticed about hail is that its not hail anymore, it is snow, which raises the defense of ice types by 1.5x. This essentially turns any Ice-type into a Pokemon that can use the weather, and so I made a team that includes all of the mons I could think of that use snow best. In teambuilding, while I do not think that snow is the best weather, I think it has a lot of Pokemon that can use it well, such as Baxcalibur, who appreciates the defense buff, Avalugg, who is a great physical wall, can terastalize to not be ice type if it needs to, and can set aurora veil under snow, Cetitan, who is an extremely threatening belly drum sweeper with boosted defense, high HP, and high attack and speed under snow, and most of all, Iron Bundle. There has been a lot of talk about how strong Iron Bundle is, and I definitely think it is one of the strongest mons, if not the strongest, there is right now (Not counting Flutter Mane). It is already an insanely strong mon with very high speed and special attack, not terrible bulk, and strong moves, and snow only helps it. Snow gives it more physical defense, which is nice, but it also lets it use Blizzard freely without worry of missing. This gives it a strong Ice move for when Freeze Dry is not enough. In the games that I have played, a lot of times I have been backed into a corner, then Iron Bundle comes out and sweeps the other team. Its biggest weakness is priority users, specifically Mach Punch because of its weakness. Because of Snow, Bundle can take more hits, and Mach Punch itself is resisted by a great snow setter, Slowking. Overall, the amount of offensive pressure that Iron Bundle exerts without being that frail. Under snow especially, it becomes a monster that hits like a truck without any special attack boost because of blizzard (Or at least, a bigger truck), and has its already good Defense boosted to be quite high. This all leads me to believe that Iron Bundle is worthy of at least a suspect test, and I would not be surprised if it will be on the new radar that will come out.
Back to snow itself, I think that with Slowking being a water type and gaining access to what is, essentially, teleport but you start snow on the way out, it is a great addition to snow teams. It still can use future sight, and the lack of scald sucks, but it can set snow and get a teammate in for free most of the time. There are only 2 slush rush mons (Cetitan and Beartic), but both of them can be used as Slush Rush Sweepers. Beartic gets Swords Dance and good coverage, and Cetitan has low bulk but high HP and Belly Drum, which sets it up as a risky but very rewarding Belly Drum snow sweeper. Aurora Veil still works under snow, which is a nice bonus, and there are mons that can set it like Avalugg, which is a good tank with ice Body, and Abomasnow, which can also be a second snow setter. Access to terastalizating helps Ice types as a whole, because Ice is not a great defensive typing, but a good offensive one. Pokemon can switch into their ice type to gain a very strong double STAB, or get a better defensive typing.
Snow overall is very interesting and a fun strategy to play with that has a lot of new inclusions that really help it, although has had things removed from it that does make seem worse. This is just my thoughts on snow and the state it is in, and a team I made, though, and I am not the greatest at seeing weaknesses in strategies, so if someone wants to tell me that snow is actually terrible, I would be glad to learn of it too.
I haven't really noticed any hail teams or discussion of hail, which I think is because there are not a lot of abusers of hail. One interesting thing that I noticed about hail is that its not hail anymore, it is snow, which raises the defense of ice types by 1.5x. This essentially turns any Ice-type into a Pokemon that can use the weather, and so I made a team that includes all of the mons I could think of that use snow best. In teambuilding, while I do not think that snow is the best weather, I think it has a lot of Pokemon that can use it well, such as Baxcalibur, who appreciates the defense buff, Avalugg, who is a great physical wall, can terastalize to not be ice type if it needs to, and can set aurora veil under snow, Cetitan, who is an extremely threatening belly drum sweeper with boosted defense, high HP, and high attack and speed under snow, and most of all, Iron Bundle. There has been a lot of talk about how strong Iron Bundle is, and I definitely think it is one of the strongest mons, if not the strongest, there is right now (Not counting Flutter Mane). It is already an insanely strong mon with very high speed and special attack, not terrible bulk, and strong moves, and snow only helps it. Snow gives it more physical defense, which is nice, but it also lets it use Blizzard freely without worry of missing. This gives it a strong Ice move for when Freeze Dry is not enough. In the games that I have played, a lot of times I have been backed into a corner, then Iron Bundle comes out and sweeps the other team. Its biggest weakness is priority users, specifically Mach Punch because of its weakness. Because of Snow, Bundle can take more hits, and Mach Punch itself is resisted by a great snow setter, Slowking. Overall, the amount of offensive pressure that Iron Bundle exerts without being that frail. Under snow especially, it becomes a monster that hits like a truck without any special attack boost because of blizzard (Or at least, a bigger truck), and has its already good Defense boosted to be quite high. This all leads me to believe that Iron Bundle is worthy of at least a suspect test, and I would not be surprised if it will be on the new radar that will come out.
Back to snow itself, I think that with Slowking being a water type and gaining access to what is, essentially, teleport but you start snow on the way out, it is a great addition to snow teams. It still can use future sight, and the lack of scald sucks, but it can set snow and get a teammate in for free most of the time. There are only 2 slush rush mons (Cetitan and Beartic), but both of them can be used as Slush Rush Sweepers. Beartic gets Swords Dance and good coverage, and Cetitan has low bulk but high HP and Belly Drum, which sets it up as a risky but very rewarding Belly Drum snow sweeper. Aurora Veil still works under snow, which is a nice bonus, and there are mons that can set it like Avalugg, which is a good tank with ice Body, and Abomasnow, which can also be a second snow setter. Access to terastalizating helps Ice types as a whole, because Ice is not a great defensive typing, but a good offensive one. Pokemon can switch into their ice type to gain a very strong double STAB, or get a better defensive typing.
Snow overall is very interesting and a fun strategy to play with that has a lot of new inclusions that really help it, although has had things removed from it that does make seem worse. This is just my thoughts on snow and the state it is in, and a team I made, though, and I am not the greatest at seeing weaknesses in strategies, so if someone wants to tell me that snow is actually terrible, I would be glad to learn of it too.
There’s nothing wrong with being new or wanting to play with all the new toys. Unfortunately, I’m going to be honest with you in saying that it’s more likely that “all” will become “most” over time given the insane power creep.
Right now, I’m striving to strike a balance between removing clear, broken outliers and keeping the metagame fresh, fun, and filled with the general flavor of excitement that we are seeing now. So posts like yours are really inspiring, but I also try to be realistic and transparent about our direction, which is why I responded in suit.
Espeon also seems to be outclassed as a CM user by
.Espathra has access to speed boost, LUMINA CRASH (which sounds crazier in paper than what it really is honestly). It gains access to stronger Stored Powers much faster than Espeon thanks to Speed Boost. Espathra also has access to fairy coverage in dazzling gleam (which espeon also has) and instant recovery in roost (which espeon lacks). Overall I think espeon has become kinda trashy except for Magic Bounce which will probably carry it's usage to around RU or NU I guess.
Also
has a really funny CM set with moonblast/coverage/ CM / close combat that will probably pick up traction oncesome of the broken stuff gets gone'd
Iron bundle is a pokemon with no switch ins, and to be honest, it isn't more broken cause terastelizing exists. The fact it exists is holding back it's power by a lot and I'll quickly explain why:
This is the team that I've been running the most since day 1. I changed some mons in it once or twice but I found this to be pretty balanced. https://pokepast.es/dc37870de386cf52
Truth is, many iron bundle sets are running booster energy or specs, because if that wasn't the case, counterplay against it would be impossible. Being an ice type, he takes a bunch of damage from rocks and is weak against most priorities. Steel priorities he can avoid because of his water typing, but fighting still hits hard and there is a good amount in the tier. This being said, it's amazing a pokemon that has no apparent switch ins, and can get a mon per predict hit isn't considered more broken than palafin, but he needs to be banned aswell since he is just something else.
For a long time I ran scarf palafin so I could always threaten with cc, but I later on changed to band so now these would be my team's damage calcs against it.
0 Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 50-62 (38.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 64-76 (48.8 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 51-60 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 44-52 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 126-148 (96.1 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Flutter Mane Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 171-202 (130.5 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 109-129 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see, my best attackers aren't really able to touch him outside of flutter and iron moth, since the others get outsped or killed after using priority, so how can you hold this mon down? What I've been using to deal with such threat is simple, terastelize. I predict switches, go to my iron moth, and tera grass to survive hydro and hit back hard. Yes this is absolute bs but it's the best a person can come up to. If it switches to try to threaten my breloom I can tera electric and throw a close combat. Venoshock and Hex with toxic spikes up guarantee me the KO, so by outspeeding if it isn't holding speed booster item or by simply using a tera grass to survive an hydro pump I guarantee that I won't be seeing that thing no longer. With toxic spikes I can chip it down and to be honest it hates to switch into any of my mons so that is what really helps me a lot. Being real, my team is not the best one at countering him, but when you're trying to hold back a pokemon that has coverage agaisnt the whole tier I don't feel like that's really a point either. I find myself getting him chipped down enough to kill with priority, even having to sacrifice a pokemon at times if he has a moveset and stat spread that can destroy me, being forced to predict certain attacks and waste my terastelize in order to avoid getting sweeped by it. Actually, most of the times I see myself using terastelize in order to save myself, even if to get a priority stronger like first impression or jet punch. My team was made with the intention of stopping any type of attack that included boosting, although it does struggle against things like shed tail dragonite (Which btw I won games purely by starting with orthworm holding a chople, surviving a fighting type move, shed tailing to dragonite and dragon dancing to sweep, it's kinda op) it is quite good at, for example, threatning to kill roaring moon in one hit if it doesn't switch with first impression, and if I waste his tera, better, I've got tinted lens to deal more than 50% and my palafin can ko. (The high amount of priorities is rly strong btw so I rly advise y'all to try)
I'm getting a little bit off the trail here, but what I mean is, even a team made to handle most threats in the tier has to literally predict attacks in order to switch into something that can survive the attacks of that metallic bird.
Btw right now moves like curse/bulk up are getting really good, so I advise you all to try it, good mons for that are things like great tusk, dondozo, (Palafin but he is prob getting banned next), anhinihilape, and you even have iron defense users like garganacl.
This is the team that I've been running the most since day 1. I changed some mons in it once or twice but I found this to be pretty balanced. https://pokepast.es/dc37870de386cf52
Truth is, many iron bundle sets are running booster energy or specs, because if that wasn't the case, counterplay against it would be impossible. Being an ice type, he takes a bunch of damage from rocks and is weak against most priorities. Steel priorities he can avoid because of his water typing, but fighting still hits hard and there is a good amount in the tier. This being said, it's amazing a pokemon that has no apparent switch ins, and can get a mon per predict hit isn't considered more broken than palafin, but he needs to be banned aswell since he is just something else.
For a long time I ran scarf palafin so I could always threaten with cc, but I later on changed to band so now these would be my team's damage calcs against it.
0 Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 50-62 (38.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 64-76 (48.8 - 58%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Lokix Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 51-60 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 44-52 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 126-148 (96.1 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Flutter Mane Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 171-202 (130.5 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Bundle: 109-129 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see, my best attackers aren't really able to touch him outside of flutter and iron moth, since the others get outsped or killed after using priority, so how can you hold this mon down? What I've been using to deal with such threat is simple, terastelize. I predict switches, go to my iron moth, and tera grass to survive hydro and hit back hard. Yes this is absolute bs but it's the best a person can come up to. If it switches to try to threaten my breloom I can tera electric and throw a close combat. Venoshock and Hex with toxic spikes up guarantee me the KO, so by outspeeding if it isn't holding speed booster item or by simply using a tera grass to survive an hydro pump I guarantee that I won't be seeing that thing no longer. With toxic spikes I can chip it down and to be honest it hates to switch into any of my mons so that is what really helps me a lot. Being real, my team is not the best one at countering him, but when you're trying to hold back a pokemon that has coverage agaisnt the whole tier I don't feel like that's really a point either. I find myself getting him chipped down enough to kill with priority, even having to sacrifice a pokemon at times if he has a moveset and stat spread that can destroy me, being forced to predict certain attacks and waste my terastelize in order to avoid getting sweeped by it. Actually, most of the times I see myself using terastelize in order to save myself, even if to get a priority stronger like first impression or jet punch. My team was made with the intention of stopping any type of attack that included boosting, although it does struggle against things like shed tail dragonite (Which btw I won games purely by starting with orthworm holding a chople, surviving a fighting type move, shed tailing to dragonite and dragon dancing to sweep, it's kinda op) it is quite good at, for example, threatning to kill roaring moon in one hit if it doesn't switch with first impression, and if I waste his tera, better, I've got tinted lens to deal more than 50% and my palafin can ko. (The high amount of priorities is rly strong btw so I rly advise y'all to try)
I'm getting a little bit off the trail here, but what I mean is, even a team made to handle most threats in the tier has to literally predict attacks in order to switch into something that can survive the attacks of that metallic bird.
Btw right now moves like curse/bulk up are getting really good, so I advise you all to try it, good mons for that are things like great tusk, dondozo, (Palafin but he is prob getting banned next), anhinihilape, and you even have iron defense users like garganacl.
That means we need to make more lower tiers basically to keep up with powercreep, hoping we get one or two more tiers at least so some lower power mons can shine. ZU in my opinion should be an actual tier below PU that is separate from untiered because powercreep definitely calls for more lower tiers. Gen 8 was an example of powercreep, as most of the good to incredible pokemon were in NU or above. Maybe we can even make one or two more tiers below PU to make the pool of untiered pokemon even smaller.
Anyway, enough talking about decisions the council should look into not related to OU. I was going to say electrode is a shit bundle counter because at the end of the day you are left with a pokemon that doesn't do anything else well.
So right now the stupid broken stuff is Iron Bundle, Chien-Pao, Shed Tail, and Palafin-H basically.
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That's kind of my point with Orthworm. Yes, you get a slow Shed Tail which means if you are able to get the Shed Tail off, you get a guaranteed sub, but it comes with the trade-offs of being 1-2 times max per game and actually sacrificing health on Orthworm. I find it very difficult to be able to get off Shed Tail AND use any of the other moves on Orthworm's set. On the other hand, Cyclizar can just spam Shed Tail, maybe better than into passive mons thank Orthworm thanks to Taunt, although I find myself just clicking Shed Tail anyways. Regenerator makes it so forgiving. I think in front of more offensive mons, Cyclizar's ability to outspeed is actually pretty valuable. Orthworm has to fear getting chipped below 50%, Cyclizar doesn't care. It also means it turns into a guessing game, where the outcome if you guess right is a favorable outcome, but guess wrong and you lose a grand total of 12% of Cyclizar's health.
Example: Cyclizar vs. Great Tusk, you have the choice of passing to your Salamence or passing to your Iron Bundle
Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Close Combat --> Sub stays up
Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Headlong Rush --> Sub stays up
Pass to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Salamence used Hurricane
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Close Combat --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Iron Bundle used Hydro Pump
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Headlong Rush --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Iron Bundle used Hydro Pump
Pass to Iron Bundle --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Sub stays up
Cyclizar can do this over and over again thanks to Regenerator. He constantly forces these "50/50s" where you lose nothing from the sub breaking but gain a major advantage if you guess right. It only gets easier with screens up.
Think about it though, the consolation prize is getting a free pivot into any mon you want. It's like a slow U-Turn except the mon using U-Turn only gets hit by a move that does 12% damage. This is the difference:
Pass Shed Tail to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> Oh no, you're Sub broke! --> Salamence used Hurricane
U-Turn to Salamence --> Great Tusk used Ice Spinner --> R.I.P
I tried using a specs set with it that goes like this:Alsohas a really funny CM set with moonblast/coverage/ CM / close combat that will probably pick up traction oncesome of the broken stuff gets gone'd
Iron Valiant @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
Being real it's quite the mon like this, doesn't need to waste time calm minding and can put immediate work, switch, and come in to threaten something later on again. It's amazing special movepool with good bp also lets it land powerful hits and threaten walls. With the high amount of mons like dondozo and clodsire it's good to have something that hits them hard.
Anyone's been trying out Slyveon yet? Had some results with Specs Sylv. Pixilate boosted Hyper Voice that goes through subs is pretty good, Shadow Ball and Psyshock cover their weaknesses well and I like using Fire/Ground Tera to bait Steel types. Usually takes out at least 1 or 2 mons before it faints and feels pretty comfy behind sub
Idk I have never found Valiant overwhelming. Only asked because some people find it 'broken', which I disagree with
Ladies & Gentlemen
I would like to submit the following Pokémon as Exhibit B
Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Punch
Several Players submitted Blissy as a Switch-In to Iron Bundle.
I would like to submit Iron Hands as a possible Check.
I haven’t tested if Iron Hands could switch-in, but I have seen Iron Hands beat Iron Bundle if he gets free turn in.
I can‘t find the replay of the game I played, but I wanted to share what happened.
The Enemy player had stealth rocks on my side of the field.
The Enemy player had Chien-Po on his side of the field.
I hard switched-in Iron Hands to deal with the Chien-Po on the field.
My Iron Hands took Rock Damage.
My Iron Hands took 1 hit from Chien-Po.
The enemy stayed in the battle!
They hit me again with Chien-Po.
My Iron Hands had full health on switch-in.
- He took rock damage
- He took 2 Chien-Po
My Iron Hands with the above stats survived!
My Iron Hands retaliated with fury using a Drain Punch!
The Drain Punch was Super Effective it 1 shot Chien-Po and healed my health close to full.
Chien-Po has 4x Weakness to Fighting Type Moves.
My opponent was completely outraged and they brought in the Iron Bundle.
Thus, setting the stage of our discussion, The Iron Hands & Iron Bundle are both safely in the battle.
The Iron Bundle attacked first, but didn’t do enough damage to faint my Iron Hands.
My Iron Hands responded with a Close Combat fainting the Iron Bundle.
It is safe to say the Iron Hands can switch-in to Chief-Po.
It is safe to say the Iron Hands can potentially check the Iron Bundle, but might need a safe entry.
Now remember 1 very important thing, My Iron Hands has been built to switch-in and counter Chien-Po.
I put EV’s into Defense because Chien-Po is a Psychical Attacker.
The Iron Bundle is a Special Attacker.
I had no EV’s in Special Defense.
I only had Assault Vest.
This is what saved me.
Now Obviously, It might be possible to build Iron Hands with EV’s into Special Defense.
Iron Hands might become a hard Switch-in to the Iron Bundle.
However, I haven’t tested it.
The Damage Calculators are not updated so I don’t know what would happen or the most effective EV’s spreads.
I don’t want to speculate.
I just want to bring to other people attention the possibility of another counter.
Most people have said only Blissy as a switch-in to Iron BundLe.
How many people have actually looked into using the Iron Hands?
I would like to submit the following Pokémon as Exhibit B
Iron Hands @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Punch
Several Players submitted Blissy as a Switch-In to Iron Bundle.
I would like to submit Iron Hands as a possible Check.
I haven’t tested if Iron Hands could switch-in, but I have seen Iron Hands beat Iron Bundle if he gets free turn in.
I can‘t find the replay of the game I played, but I wanted to share what happened.
The Enemy player had stealth rocks on my side of the field.
The Enemy player had Chien-Po on his side of the field.
I hard switched-in Iron Hands to deal with the Chien-Po on the field.
My Iron Hands took Rock Damage.
My Iron Hands took 1 hit from Chien-Po.
The enemy stayed in the battle!
They hit me again with Chien-Po.
My Iron Hands had full health on switch-in.
- He took rock damage
- He took 2 Chien-Po
My Iron Hands with the above stats survived!
My Iron Hands retaliated with fury using a Drain Punch!
The Drain Punch was Super Effective it 1 shot Chien-Po and healed my health close to full.
Chien-Po has 4x Weakness to Fighting Type Moves.
My opponent was completely outraged and they brought in the Iron Bundle.
Thus, setting the stage of our discussion, The Iron Hands & Iron Bundle are both safely in the battle.
The Iron Bundle attacked first, but didn’t do enough damage to faint my Iron Hands.
My Iron Hands responded with a Close Combat fainting the Iron Bundle.
It is safe to say the Iron Hands can switch-in to Chief-Po.
It is safe to say the Iron Hands can potentially check the Iron Bundle, but might need a safe entry.
Now remember 1 very important thing, My Iron Hands has been built to switch-in and counter Chien-Po.
I put EV’s into Defense because Chien-Po is a Psychical Attacker.
The Iron Bundle is a Special Attacker.
I had no EV’s in Special Defense.
I only had Assault Vest.
This is what saved me.
Now Obviously, It might be possible to build Iron Hands with EV’s into Special Defense.
Iron Hands might become a hard Switch-in to the Iron Bundle.
However, I haven’t tested it.
The Damage Calculators are not updated so I don’t know what would happen or the most effective EV’s spreads.
I don’t want to speculate.
I just want to bring to other people attention the possibility of another counter.
Most people have said only Blissy as a switch-in to Iron BundLe.
How many people have actually looked into using the Iron Hands?
Just to add a practical example of how Iron Bundle's natural physical bulk is the straw that breaks its back:
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9ou-1717309596-zsvdwnmrib8673un7vl1bwcc0vav0s4pw
Turn 15, it takes 76% from LO Kingambit Sucker Punch with three mons down on Supreme Overlord. 114 uninvested defense is nothing to laugh at.
Like, the rest of that match is whatever. I should have been dead when Kingambit came in the second time and I wasn't.
Also, manual Electric Terrain is...not the worst?
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen9ou-1717309596-zsvdwnmrib8673un7vl1bwcc0vav0s4pw
Turn 15, it takes 76% from LO Kingambit Sucker Punch with three mons down on Supreme Overlord. 114 uninvested defense is nothing to laugh at.
Like, the rest of that match is whatever. I should have been dead when Kingambit came in the second time and I wasn't.
Also, manual Electric Terrain is...not the worst?
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Regardless of this new Quark Drive/Protosynthesis development, I feel that Iron Bundle should still be banned. I’ve found Choice Specs to be more useful on it than Booster Energy even before this new discovery. As for what I believe to be the other three most potentially problematic Paradox Forms—Great Tusk, Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant—I think they still deserve suspects, but they shouldn’t be prioritized.
I am likely to be voting ban on Palafin and Iron Bundle, which will be added to the radar, during the next slate later this week. I am considering others as well, but largely undecided.
Finchinator Cool to know! Are you working on an On The Radar update to show us what else is being looked into?
- Status