Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[awyp]

In all honesty, the tier is progressively getting more enjoyable to play. Say what you will about Tera ban or the quick bans but team building feels much less restrictive and set variety feels a little more fluid than the beginning of the generation. Tier leaders don't deserve the hate they get, although I know its just a vocal minority that speak out.

On to a different topic, Torkoal feels so good right now, even after the Chi Yu ban. A lot of strong mons benefit from Proto and between Yawn SR Spin and fire move, it has role compression and gives a ton of team support. Roaring Moon and Great Tusk slot in nicely and are top mons in the meta, and Proto Atk Scarf Great Tusk is such a threat to most teams. I already see a good bit of Torkoal but honestly I expect to see more. Torkoal Hatterene Brute Bonnett TR team when???

Simply put: Not having to plan to put something on the team to (try to switch-in) to a Specs Chi-Yu Overheat / Dark Pulse is extremely refreshing. I can team build in peace :)

What moveset do you run w/ Bonnet?

Offensive Growth set (Brute Bonnet)

Brute Bonnet @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Bullet Seed
- Sucker Punch
- Growth

 

[Venduria]

What moveset do you run w/ Bonnet?

You run anything else right now

 

[Endrism]

Thought I'd chime in on what I think of the current meta. Right now things are weird because it feels slightly unbalanced, but when I look at the mons individually, I don't see much of a problem. Could be that we just haven't adapted to them yet.


Gholdengo spike stack has been a topic of discussion, and a reason why people think it should get banned, and while I think Gholdengo is an S tier pokemon right now, it doesn't feel overbearing to me. Great Tusk can rapid spin without worry because Gholdengo doesn't want to swap in, Kingambit doesn't have to worry about Focus Blast when a prime Sucker Punch is ready to kill. Things like SpDef Amoonguss, Toxapex, Clodsire, Corviknight, and Dragonite can bulk hits nicely. People mention Shadow Ball SpDef drops, but I'll cover that in a bit. Overall I think Gholdengo is very nice to have, but not infallible like some people claim.


Mega Weavile is scary as hell, but it has some glaring weaknesses that Chi-Yu didn't have. The defensive ice typing means so many things hit it at least neutral, and with its already sub-par defenses, it functions as a glass cannon more than anything, and while Chi-Yu had no trouble pushing past its checks, Chien-Pao doesn't like the presense of the bozo dozo, Mach Punch Breloom, Bullet Punch Scizor, and Tera Fairy Skeledirge Will-O-Wisp. This one is definitely the most borderline of the ones I'm going to mention here, and I could go either way as its offensive prowess is extremely good, even if it isn't as good as Chi-Yu's was.


This is the one I really want to talk about though. I am fully convinced that people see this thing as OP because they refuse to adapt. Yes Salt Cure is a really good move, but Covert Cloak exists. I know, "Covert Cloak is too niche, having to use an entire item slot for it makes it centralizing blah blah" No it doesn't. Covert Cloak is an item I have found myself using on many teams for more than just Garganacl. So I want to start a Covert Cloak appreciation post.


COVERT CLOAK IS A GOOD ITEM.

What use could Cloak have other than to counter Salt Cure? Well first of all, that in itself is incredibly good. It means any ghost type holding this can set-up for basically free, whether thats Sub NP Gholdengo, DD Pult, Ceruledge, Polteageist, Mimikyu, or Gengar. All of them can get a free setup against Garganacl because the moves it mainly runs are Salt Cure and Body Press, and if it starts using like Tera Ghost Tera Blast, well then they have to give up hazards, recovery, or body press, which means it would be easier to break down.

but do you know what else Covert Cloak prevents? Shadow Ball SpDef drops. Clodsire can feel SO much safer around Pult and Gholdengo if its holding a Cloak. No more getting SpDef dropped and now you are forced to switch because you can't tank Shadow Balls anymore. Hell no more random burns on fire moves or random paras on electric moves, no more random poisons on poison moves. No more flinches on your walls from a Kingambit Iron Head, no more getting slowed down by Brelooms Bulldoze or getting your special attack dropped by Hatterenes Mystical Fire. It makes me feel so much safer having the item, especially on mons that in the past normally had a revolving door of items because it doesn't need passive recovery like:

Rocky Helmet was for some extra chip against specific things, but why not be immune to Garganacls Salt Cure for safer Defogs? Can stop Specs Pult from beating you down with Shadow Balls since SpDef drop won't be a problem.

Same deal, no trapping heatrans right now so no need for Shed Shell, Black Sludge is cool, but Recover exists, why not use Covert Cloak for the same reasons as Corviknight, no Salt Cure 25%, no Shadow Ball SpDef drops, life is good.

Already talked about him. Can wall Gholdengo without a care in the world.

Are you worried about Crunch lowering your defense leaving you susceptible to Chien-Pao shenanigans, not anymore!

I bet if Scald burns were still around, Covert Cloak would be up there with items like HDB as good items to use, but even without scald burns there are still multiple reasons to use a Cloak for just that extra feeling of safety. Removing the pesky RNG that can plague your life the moment you see that Special Defensive drop kill your entire game. Give it some more love, and give your Clodsires a shifty little cloak to sneak around the darkness avoiding SpDef drops like its nothing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Thought I'd chime in on what I think of the current meta. Right now things are weird because it feels slightly unbalanced, but when I look at the mons individually, I don't see much of a problem. Could be that we just haven't adapted to them yet.


Gholdengo spike stack has been a topic of discussion, and a reason why people think it should get banned, and while I think Gholdengo is an S tier pokemon right now, it doesn't feel overbearing to me. Great Tusk can rapid spin without worry because Gholdengo doesn't want to swap in, Kingambit doesn't have to worry about Focus Blast when a prime Sucker Punch is ready to kill. Things like SpDef Amoonguss, Toxapex, Clodsire, Corviknight, and Dragonite can bulk hits nicely. People mention Shadow Ball SpDef drops, but I'll cover that in a bit. Overall I think Gholdengo is very nice to have, but not infallible like some people claim.


Mega Weavile is scary as hell, but it has some glaring weaknesses that Chi-Yu didn't have. The defensive ice typing means so many things hit it at least neutral, and with its already sub-par defenses, it functions as a glass cannon more than anything, and while Chi-Yu had no trouble pushing past its checks, Chien-Pao doesn't like the presense of the bozo dozo, Mach Punch Breloom, Bullet Punch Scizor, and Tera Fairy Skeledirge Will-O-Wisp. This one is definitely the most borderline of the ones I'm going to mention here, and I could go either way as its offensive prowess is extremely good, even if it isn't as good as Chi-Yu's was.


This is the one I really want to talk about though. I am fully convinced that people see this thing as OP because they refuse to adapt. Yes Salt Cure is a really good move, but Covert Cloak exists. I know, "Covert Cloak is too niche, having to use an entire item slot for it makes it centralizing blah blah" No it doesn't. Covert Cloak is an item I have found myself using on many teams for more than just Garganacl. So I want to start a Covert Cloak appreciation post.


COVERT CLOAK IS A GOOD ITEM.

What use could Cloak have other than to counter Salt Cure? Well first of all, that in itself is incredibly good. It means any ghost type holding this can set-up for basically free, whether thats Sub NP Gholdengo, DD Pult, Ceruledge, Polteageist, Mimikyu, or Gengar. All of them can get a free setup against Garganacl because the moves it mainly runs are Salt Cure and Body Press, and if it starts using like Tera Ghost Tera Blast, well then they have to give up hazards, recovery, or body press, which means it would be easier to break down.

but do you know what else Covert Cloak prevents? Shadow Ball SpDef drops. Clodsire can feel SO much safer around Pult and Gholdengo if its holding a Cloak. No more getting SpDef dropped and now you are forced to switch because you can't tank Shadow Balls anymore. Hell no more random burns on fire moves or random paras on electric moves, no more random poisons on poison moves. No more flinches on your walls from a Kingambit Iron Head, no more getting slowed down by Brelooms Bulldoze or getting your special attack dropped by Hatterenes Mystical Fire. It makes me feel so much safer having the item, especially on mons that in the past normally had a revolving door of items because it doesn't need passive recovery like:

Rocky Helmet was for some extra chip against specific things, but why not be immune to Garganacls Salt Cure for safer Defogs? Can stop Specs Pult from beating you down with Shadow Balls since SpDef drop won't be a problem.

Same deal, no trapping heatrans right now so no need for Shed Shell, Black Sludge is cool, but Recover exists, why not use Covert Cloak for the same reasons as Corviknight, no Salt Cure 25%, no Shadow Ball SpDef drops, life is good.

Already talked about him. Can wall Gholdengo without a care in the world.

Are you worried about Crunch lowering your defense leaving you susceptible to Chien-Pao shenanigans, not anymore!

I bet if Scald burns were still around, Covert Cloak would be up there with items like HDB as good items to use, but even without scald burns there are still multiple reasons to use a Cloak for just that extra feeling of safety. Removing the pesky RNG that can plague your life the moment you see that Special Defensive drop kill your entire game. Give it some more love, and give your Clodsires a shifty little cloak to sneak around the darkness avoiding SpDef drops like its nothing.

i agree on gholdengo and garg. cinderace should also be mentioned as a ghold sort-of-answer because fuck whatever anyone says, court change is a really good move to have right now. as for garg, the people who want it gone are probably in the same category of people who want a full tera ban or who wanted boots banned last gen. they see something new and frightening and very good but not broken and decide they want it to go away instead of adapting to it. chien-pao i have to hard disagree with because it's just another unga bunga mon with like 3 and a half soft checks that you don't have to actually be good at the game to succeed with. we get at least 2 of these every gen and the arguments for and against banning them fall into the exact same pattern. just put the cat out already

What moveset do you run w/ Bonnet?

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Toxic
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore

 

[RedxThree]

I bet if Scald burns were still around, Covert Cloak would be up there with items like HDB as good items to use, but even without scald burns there are still multiple reasons to use a Cloak for just that extra feeling of safety. Removing the pesky RNG that can plague your life the moment you see that Special Defensive drop kill your entire game. Give it some more love, and give your Clodsires a shifty little cloak to sneak around the darkness avoiding SpDef drops like its nothing.

The Scald point is actually a valid one, for the record, I think we’re all thankful we don’t have to deal with that. Covert Cloak being niche doesn’t mean it isn’t worth using, it’s that it has an opportunity cost to use over items. Cloak can assist when it comes to Sball spam and the like, but choosing Cloak over Lefties/HDB is only a factor against those potential debuffs, not avoiding hazard damage or gaining passive recovery that let mons dodge these 2HKOs in the first place.

This is why something like Pex can maximize Cloak because its bulk and ability give it way more breathing room against hazard damage than the average pivot or wall, making it less dependent on an item. Cloak is definitely relevant and has specific uses, absolutely, but it’s not as splashable as other items we have.

 

[Rootb]

but choosing Cloak over Lefties/HDB is only a factor against those potential debuffs, not avoiding hazard damage or gaining passive recovery that let mons dodge these 2HKOs in the first place.

Cloak is definitely relevant and has specific uses, absolutely, but it’s not as splashable as other items we have.

HDB does stop the other hazards, but.. if we're being honest? When you look at mons who are using HDB as their most common item, a pattern starts to emerge:

x2
x2
x4
x2
x2
x2

In this meta, the best reason to be running HDB is if one specific rock move causes you to take extra damage on the switch-in. Even if Salt Cure was really the only thing Covert Cloak blocked, it'd still just be something that countered a single, albeit signature, move.

But, as written in your quoted post, it's really not. It's also Inner Focus. And, effectively, Magma Armor. It's no longer possible for you to be forced out by stat drops, or randomly statused by moves that are being used for their damage. It's the best item you'll never notice, and while that makes it very difficult to argue its strength? It is, in fact, strong.

Honestly? If it were Serene Grace, rather than Salt Cure, that was causing the issue, I think it would be a lot more obvious just how impactful one item can be.

 

[Bakugames]

I think the most popular unaware mon I've seen on low to mid ladder is skeledirge. It can be annoying to deal with, torch song is an incredible move and makes it the least passive out of the 3 unaware mons we have. I tend to surprise kill it with scarf gholdengo, but that's mostly prediction of tera fairy. Tera water is easier to deal with imo, but just the fact it exists makes me scared of clicking make it rain LOL. Just a really nice, if a bit scary depending on how your team looks, mon. Should try a team with it.

Also noticed that there were quite more water absorb clods than unaware clods. I assume the value of water absorb is for walling rotom w (other than it being able to burn you) and denying quaquaval n dondozo outta their usual "annoying but can break through" matchups with clod. I used mostly unaware in the early meta, but I haven't used clod in a long while so I was surprised water absorb was the most popular choice. Do you guys have a preference? I'm also not sure if the trends are different on higher ladder, I'm just a little guy here

 

[ApertureB]

Chien-Pao has effortlessly taken the place of fish. It 2 taps every mon in format with a single layer of hazards and has an unchallenged speed tier. Once again a mon is forcing like 3ish dedicated checks on every team.

Who couldve seen this coming....

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

the bozo dozo, Mach Punch Breloom, Bullet Punch Scizor, and Tera Fairy Skeledirge Will-O-Wisp

Donbozo is 2HKO’d by Tera dark banded crunch whether that will be hazards or icicle crash beforehand, Skeledirge must have Tera’d beforehand to be able to switch into crunch. The priority users CANNOT risk switching in

 

[ApertureB]

Donbozo is 2HKO’d by Tera dark banded crunch whether that will be hazards or icicle crash beforehand, Skeledirge must have Tera’d beforehand to be able to switch into crunch. The priority users CANNOT risk switching in

This
The only real counters against Pao atm is hope they are stupid or meticulously setup a plan for them to have to raw switch into an already setup mon while all they have to do is click tera crunch.

 

[Solar Power]

I think my only concern atm with banning Chien-Pao is that it would take away another pokemon that makes Gholdengo's life difficult. Every ban has made Gholdengo relatively stronger compared to what's left, and I worry that only taking action against Chien-Pao is going to make Gholdengo the next target on everyone's list. Idk, we all know how good Gholdengo is, but at what point does it become the problem too? I feel like that threshold could be approached if/when Chien-Pao is banned

 

[ayevon]

Nasty Plot Gholdengo is the most meta warping and restrictive mon in the metagame. Insane bulk and stock typing, strong even when unboosted with great moves (Make It Rain is basically a buffed Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball invalidates counters with drops). The only OU pokemon which resists it's STABs is Kingambit, which still takes north of 30% from Make It Rain and can't risk switching in without scouting the set first. It can run multiple items on Nasty Plot (Leftovers, HDB, Covert Cloak, Air Balloon, TrickScarf). Tera invalidates a good amount of the limited options available for defensive counterplay (assuming Shadow Ball drops didn't already) and also make it a nightmare to revenge kill when paired with it's natural bulk. Obviously, it's immune to status moves and can run a traditional scarf set which is a similarly strong albeit not as metawarping pick. I honestly don't think the fact that it blocks defog is that big of a deal when it comes to how broken it is, there's just such limited counterplay and a ton of guess work involved in handling it both defensively and offensively.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Oh boi Gholdengo is just almost on every other team right now, eh? Also hazards are getting a bir more popular at that same time, atleast form the few games that I've played on the ladder today (Oddly enough only one of the hazard teams that I fought had a Gholdengo)

 

[Pinecoishot]

Nasty Plot Gholdengo is the most meta warping and restrictive mon in the metagame. Insane bulk and stock typing, strong even when unboosted with great moves (Make It Rain is basically a buffed Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball invalidates counters with drops). The only OU pokemon which resists it's STABs is Kingambit, which still takes north of 30% from Make It Rain and can't risk switching in without scouting the set first. It can run multiple items on Nasty Plot (Leftovers, HDB, Covert Cloak, Air Balloon, TrickScarf). Tera invalidates a good amount of the limited options available for defensive counterplay (assuming Shadow Ball drops didn't already) and also make it a nightmare to revenge kill when paired with it's natural bulk. Obviously, it's immune to status moves and can run a traditional scarf set which is a similarly strong albeit not as metawarping pick. I honestly don't think the fact that it blocks defog is that big of a deal when it comes to how broken it is, there's just such limited counterplay and a ton of guess work involved in handling it both defensively and offensively.

While I do agree nasty plot gholdengho is an insane matchup vs any team that isn’t offense/hyper offense. I think it’s important to wait a bit to see if these teams can adapt. If we look at it, covert cloak (the real scary one) who can get free switches on garg, was kinda made to counterteam these garg balances that were being spammed. I’m more interested in the fact on how these teams will adapt to it. I’m already seeing some counterplay like haze clod and more. I do think we will eventually reach a point where gholdengo will get tested due to how restrictive it is though. But I don’t think there’s been enough time to say that it’s broken or something when teams haven’t adapted to it as much as I think they naturally will.

 

[Morkal]

Iron Jugulis @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Earth Power
- U-turn​

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Jugulis Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 408-480 (107.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I've been using Iron Jugulis since Gen 9's meta started a few times, but with the rise of defensive Gholdengo lately, I've been finding it far more helpful than it was before. Dark / Flying is a great STAB combination that nails a considerable portion of the meta for super-effective damage alongside great coverage in Earth Power which can become STAB with Tera (dodging Electric moves such as Gholdengo's Thunderbolt is also another huge benefit).

Iron Jugulis outspeeds Gholdengo without Scarf, and Scarf Gholdengo cannot OHKO Iron Jugulis without a critical hit -

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Jugulis: 238-282 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I personally prefer Air Slash outside of Rain because the flinch chance from Jugulis's high speed has saved me more than a few times (+ I hate Hurricane's accuracy), but I completely understand wanting to run Hurricane instead

 

[Beaf Cultist]

People should just learn to adapt to the meta.

People should learn to stop grandstanding every time someone expresses valid concerns about the impacts a meta shift may have on a mon that is widely recognized as very overbearing and meta-shaping.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Palafin, Cyclizar and gholdengo is not even that bad

Annihilape seems fine. Just needs to learn how to play around it.

People should just learn to adapt to the meta. So much complaints because people are afraid to change then we wonder why gholdengo becomes OP. If we lose all 3, y’all be complaining about dragonite afterwards. Just wait until home is released, most of the bans people want is going to get retested anyways. Just adapt and adjust. Home is a couple of months away. Adapt.

i'm starting to sense a pattern

 

[ApertureB]

People should just learn to adapt to the meta. So much complaints because people are afraid to change then we wonder why gholdengo becomes OP. If we lose all 3, y’all be complaining about dragonite afterwards. Just wait until home is released, most of the bans people want is going to get retested anyways. Just adapt and adjust. Home is a couple of months away. Adapt.

Learn to adapt to a mon 1-2 tapping every mon in format.
Learn to adapt to a mon that has the best ability ever with one of the best typing and best stat/movepools ever.

That isn't adapting. It's coping.

Chien Pao is another brainless click button hit hard mon that beats nearly all of its supposed check and counters.

Gholdengo is the most unpredictable mon ever, a single item change can make it beat its checks/counters, and its inability to be hit by anything not damage related makes it both immune to phasing, removing hazards, and disrupting if it sets up. Not only that but it lost almost all of its counters/checks with the past couple bans and it was already the best mon in the tier by a significant margin.

Everyone knows that the power creep of this gen is insane, but like sometimes it happens and needs to be dealt with. Pao 100% should be banned if the fish was and Gholdengo, while it has a small case for being fair, has lost 90% of its checks/counters and is probably reaching 70% usage easily because of it.

It isn't a weakness to want to ban things nor is is a failure to adapt. I'm more for banning things that are obviously broken early and then suspecting them later rather then dealing with obviously broken stuff and then going, " Wow the addition of like 500 more mons with home introduced more checks and counters who would've thought" while the playerbase is suffering.

On a more personal note after playing a ridiculous amount of the ladder is that the only things in the tier that are actually causing restriction in team-building are the above mentioned mons. Very rarely do any other mons come close to causing insane game loss scenarios off of a single mistake or causing teams to be gimped by forcing you to run direct(sometimes multiple) answers to them.

I couldn't imagine anything else causing issues if the above 2 were gone.

 

[Ibaragi]

Also noticed that there were quite more water absorb clods than unaware clods. I assume the value of water absorb is for walling rotom w (other than it being able to burn you) and denying quaquaval n dondozo outta their usual "annoying but can break through" matchups with clod. I used mostly unaware in the early meta, but I haven't used clod in a long while so I was surprised water absorb was the most popular choice. Do you guys have a preference? I'm also not sure if the trends are different on higher ladder, I'm just a little guy here

I've also seen multiple Water Absorb Clods, but strongly disagree with the idea. Maybe it works better as an implied bluff for Unaware? Not convinced. Clod is the only good Unaware mon we have on the SpD side, nullifying all Gholdengo sets (although can be awkward to have a 1v1 against Air Balloon Ghold with only Earthquake for offense, but that one's rarer nowadays) and stopping Volcarona, Skeledirge and even a set-up Espathra if Tera-Dark.
Arguments can be made that Skeledirge is also a decent answer for Volcarona, NP Gholdengo and Skeledirge can be checked offensively and Espathra is rare nowadays and without Cyclizar has a harder time to properly set up, but I still don't think it's worth it to run Water Absorb just to better check Rotom-Wash, that can Trick anyway to cripple Clod if Choiced and doesn't even 2HKO unless heavily/fully invested in SpA. We don't have enough Water mons to justify it in my opinion and many of the "dangerous" ones (Azumarill, Quaquaval, Floatzel) can also run Ice Spinner to kill Clod anyway.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

You need to seek some help psycho.

wow, rude. i mean, true, but rude

you could have at least said something like "just because i was wrong before doesn't mean i'm wrong now", which is a perfectly valid point, but you decided to go straight for hurtful words. i'm more disappointed than hurt, though

(edit: they apologized, we're bros now)

 

[Bakugames]

I've also seen multiple Water Absorb Clods, but strongly disagree with the idea. Maybe it works better as an implied bluff for Unaware? Not convinced. Clod is the only good Unaware mon we have on the SpD side, nullifying all Gholdengo sets (although can be awkward to have a 1v1 against Air Balloon Ghold with only Earthquake for offense, but that one's rarer nowadays) and stopping Volcarona, Skeledirge and even a set-up Espathra if Tera-Dark.
Arguments can be made that Skeledirge is also a decent answer for Volcarona, NP Gholdengo and Skeledirge can be checked offensively and Espathra is rare nowadays and without Cyclizar has a harder time to properly set up, but I still don't think it's worth it to run Water Absorb just to better check Rotom-Wash, that can Trick anyway to cripple Clod if Choiced and doesn't even 2HKO unless heavily/fully invested in SpA. We don't have enough Water mons to justify it in my opinion and many of the "dangerous" ones (Azumarill, Quaquaval, Floatzel) can also run Ice Spinner to kill Clod anyway.

Will also add that I find those water absorb clods easier to kill with the right positioning w/np gholdengo. Still dont like to eat an earthquake on switch in but if you enter without taking damage theres not much the clod can do (or even worse if it's the one entering). Not sure if this is just from the players I'm playing against, but I did start to notice it

 

[Yarvy]

I've also seen multiple Water Absorb Clods, but strongly disagree with the idea. Maybe it works better as an implied bluff for Unaware? Not convinced. Clod is the only good Unaware mon we have on the SpD side, nullifying all Gholdengo sets (although can be awkward to have a 1v1 against Air Balloon Ghold with only Earthquake for offense, but that one's rarer nowadays) and stopping Volcarona, Skeledirge and even a set-up Espathra if Tera-Dark.
Arguments can be made that Skeledirge is also a decent answer for Volcarona, NP Gholdengo and Skeledirge can be checked offensively and Espathra is rare nowadays and without Cyclizar has a harder time to properly set up, but I still don't think it's worth it to run Water Absorb just to better check Rotom-Wash, that can Trick anyway to cripple Clod if Choiced and doesn't even 2HKO unless heavily/fully invested in SpA. We don't have enough Water mons to justify it in my opinion and many of the "dangerous" ones (Azumarill, Quaquaval, Floatzel) can also run Ice Spinner to kill Clod anyway.

I've tried both abilities and agree with all this. Unaware Clod just does more. Being able to switch into NP Gholdengo and Skeledirge and not give a damn is huge. They can't do anything to you, and Skeledirge getting hit with toxic is rough for it

 

[Mikegengsta]

wow, rude. i mean, true, but rude

you could have at least said something like "just because i was wrong before doesn't mean i'm wrong now", which is a perfectly valid point, but you decided to go straight for hurtful words. i'm more disappointed than hurt, though

Going to PM you to keep it civil.

 

[RedxThree]

Unaware was the preferred Clod ability at first but it was quickly discovered that it also ignored the -2 from Chi-Yu’s Overheat, so Clod couldn’t check it after an attack whatsoever. Turned out to be a good thing cuz Water Absorb is good in its own right.

I prefer it just because it completely shuts down Waters, and there are other viable Unaware users if you need them.

 

[Low-Key]

Going to PM you to keep it civil.

My man you signed up for this website almost 11 years ago. How did you not learn to not use hurtful words when arguing with someone in that time span?