Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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calling ur bluff on this rn. give me a title, gen gimmick, regional rodent, and seven regional variants of dracovish
title: pokemon chartreuse and pokemon burgundy (named after the alcohols, not the colors)
generational gimmick: item that adds an additional typing to your pokemon. viewable at team preview and only one mon per team can hold it. also gives the pokemon two fancy hats and is graphically unintensive enough to easily port to showdown. put that in your pipe and smoke it, terastal. also megas are back
regional rodent: i don't know whether you're referring to the early game normal-type or the pikaclone so i came up with both. early game normal-type is a bushbaby pokemon called scambush that disguises itself as a bush. it evolves into a grass/dark type called bamboozle. the pikaclone is called zapybara
seven dracovish forms: dracovish-red, dracovish-orange, dracovish-yellow, dracovish-green, dracovish-blue, dracovish-indigo, dracovish-violet. they're all exactly identical to regular dracovish in every way but aesthetically. they spawn randomly in outbreaks that also include regular dracovish. their shinies all look exactly like regular non-shiny dracovish

go ahead and call my bluff again, i triple dog dare you
 
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I've been using Scarf Iron Valiant with Trick, it doesn't hit hard (like it's Choice Specs counterpart) but tricking fat walls such as Nacl with no protect (Iron Defense Body Press set) has been quite delightful.

Opinions on Scarf Valiant?

I feel like it does what it does well. It's a good late cleaner and speedy revenge killer with Moonblast and Close Combat. I run Knock-Off as my 3rd attacking move but it doesn't hit as hard as it feels like it should. Trick's nice for dealing with slower/stall teams, but I like holding onto the scarf if possible because Tera Fairy Moonblast's from its scarfed speed tier are a fun way to end games.

Big downside is it feels like it has no defensive utility, apart from a 4x Dark resistance which only goes so far. It also definitely can't push through many walls without Specs so you have to be conservative using it early.
 
for future reference, here's a better reaction image i just made
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Here’s a fun set for everyone to try, before chien pao gets the hammer:

:chien pao:
Chien-Pao @ Black Glasses
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

It’s a very simple set that takes advantage of the popularity of the regenerator Pokémon that have arisen as a response to the 50/50 predictions required for banded chien pao.

a lot of opponents deal with chien pao by doing the “regenerator check”, where they throw in a toxapex or alomolola to absorb a potential banded crunch, before switching back out to a great tusk, ting Lu, or other miscellaneous dark resist.

some opponents are still happy to risk the 50/50 games that chien pao can force, for example a 100% cinderace is forced out by banded crunch in theory, however it the opponent goes to its 85% great tusk expecting a crunch, only to be blasted by icicle crash… it’s going to have a hard time!

thanks to the black glasses boost + Tera dark, you can assure an OHKO on all Pex and max def bold corviknight at around 92%, ting Lu and great tusk are beaten by +2 icicle crash and you don’t need to risk life orb recoil, this means you can setup on earthquake and other softer hits in situations where the opponent stays in.

Sucker punch with black glasses is ridiculously strong, even without a boost. After a boost you're securely OHKOing priority threats like 100% scizor, 89% 252/0 Pawmot and non sash breloom, whilst Pokémon’s like azumaril need a little softening.

jolly is pretty much essential in the current metagame, I haven’t found a reason to use adamant yet, since you’re hitting KOs on the main things. Make sure you have a strategy to deal with kingambit and azumaril tho!

This set has a much harder time vs dondozo than the standard choice band set, although it has better matchups vs the extremely popular regenerator + dark resist core as well as the great tusk + ice resists going around right now.

you need a good defensive backbone with this set, as chances are you won’t want to always come in and SD, you might prefer a hit and run approach. With some hazard stopping support, chien pao can quickly unlock its Tera and start forcing switches.

as always, look out for the defensive Tera types, such as water great tusk or fairy gholdengo. This is the most common way chien pao is actually dealt with.
 
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I experimemted a little with sap sipper azumaril and I have to say that it is not bad at all.
being able to safely switch to spore is a good thing.
also being able to completely counter breloom is good too.
 
Is it just me or almost nobody is running Garganacl anymore due to every team sloting some hard Salt Cure counter?

I personally for example now always have at least 1 mon with covert cloak and i think many teams doing the same, not so muchbc of how good the item is but bc it completely shuts down one of the most annoying and hard to deal with threats in OU, the item pretty much hard counters it and now everyone is using it or some similar strats.

Thoughts on this?
 
Seen plenty of Garganacls on ladder yesterday, often paired with Knock Off users (between the Donphans and Meowscarada alone, almost every team has one) , so I don't think Covert Cloak diminished it's viability.
Using a Knock Off Pokemon does not suddenly change this dynamic too much. It’s very easy to switch your Cover Cloak user out of this situation when Garganacl is present on the opposing team at all, which happens frequently in my experience.
 
Using a Knock Off Pokemon does not suddenly change this dynamic too much. It’s very easy to switch your Cover Cloak user out of this situation when Garganacl is present on the opposing team at all, which happens frequently in my experience.
Depends on the Cover Cloak user and the Knock users. Toxapex won't be switching into the Donphans, but absolutely will into Meowscarada, since it doesn't suffer much from losing item... unless there is Garganacl. Cloak Corvi usually is a decent switch-in into the 3 common Knock Mons. Dondozo will not switch into Meowscarada, but will into the Donphans.

In the end, it depends on the actual match-up and the specific situation. I don't think people using Covert Cloak suddenly made Garganacl bad, it will just require careful game planning and not brainless clicking (except the brainless Knock Off clicking of course).
 
Indeedee pretty busted terrain setter. Tried pairing it with armorouge expanding force and weakness policy. Pretty much ohkos everything. Had hawlucha with psychic seed as backup sweeper. Ting lu hard counters it but hawlucha covers it. Would recommend trying.
 
so looking forward to home for a moment, beyond the pla mons, theres a ton of really threatening mons on the horizon:

:spectrier: :urshifu::magearna: and :landorus: are all going to ubers, no doubt about it
:regieleki: kinda depends on weather or not tera is looked into, if not eleki's getting the boot as well
:hoopa-unbound: is gonna be a massive threat, might be banworthy with the lower overall power level compared to gen 7, but its low speed might be enough to keep it down
:urshifu-rapid strike: is also gonna be a huge threat, one less check compared to last gen and newfound access to sd might make it banworthy
:landorus-therian: has really solid competition in the form of great tusk, who brings better overall utility with knock and spin, but landos defensive typing and access to intimidate still gives it a fighting chance in this meta.
:tornadus-therian: will be very strong as a fast regenerator pivot with solid offense, I see boots sets potentially with plot as well as assault vest pivot sets both being very strong, being a flier is also incredible for the tier due to the distinct lack of good birds, speaking of which:
:zapdos: will be a great defensive flying, static punishes common physical attacks while its good typing lets it check many things well, very good mon
:zapdos-galar: unsure on this one, on one hand, it's basically just flamigo with better stats, on the other hand, the one thing flamigo has over it is pretty big, scrappy is huge for flamigo and is part of what makes it work so well, and when you remove that gapdos might take a big hit, but it is still gapdos, and it absolutly apreciates the more hazzard-focused meta we find ourselves in
:slowking-galar: also unsure on this one, its a great special tank on paper, but in practice it's ghost weakness is a huge issue when 2 of the most dangerous special attackers are ghosts, might see some chilly reception sets and its still a decent check to the likes of valient iron moth and volc but it really misses out on not being able to check ghold/pult without burning tera
:greninja: probably the protean mon hurt the most by the protean nerf (besides kekleon L) but still will have some important traits to set it appart from the other 2 imo, water shuriken gives the tier some much needed special priority and with loaded dice it might even be fairy strong, beyond that its fast, reliable, and has a solid offensive typing for the tier, might end up falling to uu, but will still retain some niche

as for mons I think are gonna be the most affected by home:
:great tusk: is gonna fall off a bit, with lando giving it solid competition and the increased presence of flying types making its already somewhat present 4mms even worse, will still be good, but probably a bit worse
:quaquaval: will have tough competition in the form of urshifu-r, who's faster, stronger, is physically bulkier, and has access to drain punch, which if ape and palafin are anything to go by is a big deal, quaquaval has a few traits that let it stand out, namely brave bird, roost, moxie, and access to aqua step, I feel as though urshifu will be much more splashable and a better choice band user, whereas quaquaval will be more geared towards setup sweeper with moxie and aqua step
:meowscarada: this thing really hates more birds in the meta, let alone birds that outspeed it, while knock off lets it punish them for coming in, its still basically incapable of actually doing much meaningful damage to them, it risks getting static para'd by zapdos while it struggles to wear down torn, still good, but a tad bit worse
:kingambit: shifu is a great offensive check to the king, with surging strikes doing massive damage even if kingambit chooses to tera, the increased presence of lando also means we might see some defiant sets showing up.

some closing questions:
1. what old mons are you most excited for in home?

2. do you think any former ubers will find a place in ou? if so, which ones?

3. what are some mons you think will fall off once home releases?


thats all I had to say on this subject, thanks for reading!
 
Indeedee pretty busted terrain setter. Tried pairing it with armorouge expanding force and weakness policy. Pretty much ohkos everything. Had hawlucha with psychic seed as backup sweeper. Ting lu hard counters it but hawlucha covers it. Would recommend trying.

Dedicated psyterrain teams have proved to be pretty fun in general, they also greatly appreciate the recent bans of Chi-Yu and Cyclizar.
Been trying this one out to decent success.

https://pokepast.es/290b3d511ab0f2b2

(Hawlucha is sort of a meme set, Grass knot is purely for Dondozo, 2hkoing it)
252 SpA Hawlucha Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 256-302 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Can we just insta ban Landorus Incarnate now? i mean, it has always been broken, nothing has change, nothing new that can manage him, has arrive, im willing to give everyone else a try but theres no place for it, now, speaking of mons that we have now that are gonna change

:Volcarona: it can handle Heatran and Pex at the same time if Tera Blast Ground, but this means no giga drain shenanigans any more, AND its more prone to rain mons than eve

:Ting Lu: is gonna love tons Tornadus therian as a bulky mon that can pivot and wall stuff together

:Pawmot: is that another HO mons? time to kill myself [dies]*

:Hatterene: it depends on the defog/Rapid spin distribution but right now is looking good

:Iron hands: are those birds? hmmmm [punches the birds]*
 
Can we just insta ban Landorus Incarnate now? i mean, it has always been broken, nothing has change, nothing new that can manage him, has arrive, im willing to give everyone else a try but theres no place for it, now, speaking of mons that we have now that are gonna change

:Volcarona: it can handle Heatran and Pex at the same time if Tera Blast Ground, but this means no giga drain shenanigans any more, AND its more prone to rain mons than eve

:Ting Lu: is gonna love tons Tornadus therian as a bulky mon that can pivot and wall stuff together

:Pawmot: is that another HO mons? time to kill myself [dies]*

:Hatterene: it depends on the defog/Rapid spin distribution but right now is looking good

:Iron hands: are those birds? hmmmm [punches the birds]*
Genesect with access to tera is going to be fun during the two days it will be allowed.
Also, just noticed that Clef is going to end Garg's career.
 
Coming back to the present, did you guys know that Clodsire has haze? is useless with Unawere but with water absorb serves as a cool stopgap what do you guys think about that combo? and on an useless but fun note it also learns Megahorn somehow
 
Coming back to the present, did you guys know that Clodsire has haze? is useless with Unawere but with water absorb serves as a cool stopgap what do you guys think about that combo? and on an useless but fun note it also learns Megahorn somehow
Ah, yes. Clodsire attacks with it's...horn. :worrywhirl:

To not make this a one-liner, what are everyone's thoughts on Slowking? With Chilly Reception, it gets a nice niche as a defensive pivot and a reason to use it over the more popular bulky water, Dondozo. Plus, it is basically necessary to use Slowking if you are running a Snow team.
 
Can we just insta ban Landorus Incarnate now?
Why not just enjoy finally being able to use it again? (for the 2 days it is OU for yet another generation)
I don't see the point in pre-banning things, I don't think anyone expects a perfectly balanced OU the day Home drops. People just want to have fun until things get worked out and go back to normal.
 
Ah, yes. Clodsire attacks with it's...horn. :worrywhirl:

To not make this a one-liner, what are everyone's thoughts on Slowking? With Chilly Reception, it gets a nice niche as a defensive pivot and a reason to use it over the more popular bulky water, Dondozo. Plus, it is basically necessary to use Slowking if you are running a Snow team.

Honestly, pretty good, i think Flamethrower is better for chien pao, gholdengo and the fish burn chances. I honestly think that Hail right now is kinda mid, cetitan is kinda balls, Bax can be deadly but is not too scary, Chien Pao is getting banned soon (i hope) and abomasnow is.... yeah....

also clodsire has horns.... but on the sides.... like imagine clod yeeting himself sideways to hit Espathra with a megahorn thats gonna do like... give me a sec

0 Atk Clodsire Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espathra: 136-160 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- 51.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
We must be perfectly content with the current meta to resort to complaining about bans for Pokemon that aren't even in the game right now...

As for me, I think the recent wave of quick bans have done a lot to improve the state of things, but Chien Pao sticks out as an unhealthy presence in the meta currently. Reliable switch-ins to the Tera Dark CB set basically don't exist outside of the Paldean-Tauros forms and defensive Arcanine. Dondozo is a pretty shaky answer when you consider its vulnerability to hazards, poor recovery options, and the fact that it takes so much from Crunch anyway:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.4 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Adamant CB (which is perfectly viable, only really important things you lose out on outspeeding are Cinder and Roaring Moon) has nearly a 50% chance at that 2HKO with absolutely no chip whatsoever. And of course, lesser physical walls than Dondozo simply crumble when confronted with this set's power:

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 230-272 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I wouldn't even call it prediction reliant either--there are a few meta game staples that can somewhat dissuade it from just clicking Crunch all the time (Great Tusk, Kingambit, Valiant kind of) but they all incur a huge risk from switching in whereas Chien doesn't lose much from Crunching. The coverage and priority afforded by its other move slots are honestly just icing on the cake. Also, Crunch and Icicle Crash both carry with them powerful bonus effects means even some of the better answers in the tier are susceptible to being haxed past. It being the second fastest mon in the tier severely limits offensive counterplay, too, so that the list of reliable revenge killers isn't all that long. I've only touched on the CB set because I think it's the best one but of course HDB sets are potent in their own regard.

All in all, it feels like any team that isn't packing Paldean-Tauros is going to have a very difficult time dealing with Chien-Pao and I don't think this creates a very healthy dynamic in the builder or in-game.
 
I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day
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I think I'm done with Smogon and these people in the forum. Just banning Gen 9 mons because Game freak decided to nerf stall because that was Gen 8 all about. Knock off, toxic, scald, wish, protect. Just boring actually and then you guys wonder why game freak did that because that's all you guys knows how to do and play with the same mons every time. Are we going to ban every new Mon in every Gen because you guys constantly crying like little babies that this mon is too powerful, just ban it because I can't counter it or learn how to use other mons or play around lol. So glad I'm not playing showdown anymore. Consider that Game freak doesn't really care about Smogon anyways since why will Game Freak care about the crying little babies constantly complaining that this ban is broken, I hate this Gen because no stall, go back to Gen 8 and play your long boring stall game. No wonder Game Freak only cares about VGC. So much better and I can use whatever mons I want. How about you people learn to f***** adapt the meta for f*** sake. Only been one month yet a lot of new mons being banned because you guys don't have your usually mons doing the same boring crap because that's all you dumb players like to do. Use the same mons before like Lando and all that but no. Don't ban Lando from before right but ban Gholdengo is more better huh lol. Gtfo. So nice when home drops and one again Lando is going to have more usage but nobody complained about that right but Gholdengo having more usage is a problem for you guys lol. So glad you guys in the forum don't make the game lol. VGC all day

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