I will concede this point, since I made this argument thinking of what would potentially happen in the future instead of providing actual examples of pokemon that would be fine outside of veil but broken with it, so I apologize for that.
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SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition
- Thread starter Lily
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I will concede this point, since I made this argument thinking of what would potentially happen in the future instead of providing actual examples of pokemon that would be fine outside of veil but broken with it, so I apologize for that.
Now that I think of it, this is most likely the reason why it's being spammed.
While I also agree with Moute that the issue has been made worse due to losing two of our major defensive staples, I still stand by my opinion that veil has a mostly negative impact on teambuilding and centralizes the meta to a noticeable degree. As for it having the same effect as rain, I disagree with this statement due to rain being harder to make consistent due to it being more of a matchup fish, and rain sweepers having much less survivability than most veil sweepers.
I mainly just used these two calcs as extreme examples, but I probably should've used more realistic ones for my argument. I also should've properly clarified that I don't think Alolatales is a cheese mon, I just think it provides too much reward for so little risk.
Take what I say with a grain of salt because I haven't played too much of the current meta, this is mainly based of off test games I did play, and matches I've watched.
Considering all the veil talk going on rn, i figured id give my thoughts on it
Veil itself is kinda iffy to me bc i feel that while it may seem busted rn, thats prob just because of
and kinda 
(definitely hands tho bc that dude is broken as fuck even without veil). Its prob just for the best that hands gets banned first (and maybe gmolt too but idk), and then we see where things go. Odds are things get better bc i dont think smth like 
or 
can do anythning even remotely as insane as hands w veil, but I'd have to see for myself. As for gmolt, there isnt really anything that would do what it does if it was banned, i guess 
could kinda take up the mantel of dark type sweeper but... eh. Overall, i think action on veil can prob wait, if hands is gone the tier will be able to actually experiment more w defensive styles, as in my experience in the current meta those just get dumpstered by hands unless the run garbage like scream tail for it.
In short: Ban hands (and maybe gmolt) first, see how things shake out
Veil itself is kinda iffy to me bc i feel that while it may seem busted rn, thats prob just because of
and kinda (definitely hands tho bc that dude is broken as fuck even without veil). Its prob just for the best that hands gets banned first (and maybe gmolt too but idk), and then we see where things go. Odds are things get better bc i dont think smth like or can do anythning even remotely as insane as hands w veil, but I'd have to see for myself. As for gmolt, there isnt really anything that would do what it does if it was banned, i guess could kinda take up the mantel of dark type sweeper but... eh. Overall, i think action on veil can prob wait, if hands is gone the tier will be able to actually experiment more w defensive styles, as in my experience in the current meta those just get dumpstered by hands unless the run garbage like scream tail for it.In short: Ban hands (and maybe gmolt) first, see how things shake out
it's iron handover...
Alright, I think now that hands is gone, Goltres and Quaquaval should be given a week or two before they have potential action via survey.
I wonder if Quaquaval will see action taken on it soon, because its such a pain to deal with on builder, especially with no Dirge or Amoonguss, and is also an issue even outside of veil. Quaquaval has always been somewhat questionable of a presence due to its Volcarona-esque matchup fishing, but Dirge and Amoonguss being gone + Aurora Veil makes me think it is probably next in line for a quickban as it becomes stupidly easy for it to matchup fish without its proper counters in the tier
Goltres I feel like is more suspect territory though, as I don't think its as overbearing as Quaquaval right now
I wonder if Quaquaval will see action taken on it soon, because its such a pain to deal with on builder, especially with no Dirge or Amoonguss, and is also an issue even outside of veil. Quaquaval has always been somewhat questionable of a presence due to its Volcarona-esque matchup fishing, but Dirge and Amoonguss being gone + Aurora Veil makes me think it is probably next in line for a quickban as it becomes stupidly easy for it to matchup fish without its proper counters in the tier
Goltres I feel like is more suspect territory though, as I don't think its as overbearing as Quaquaval right now
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I feel like this tier is a lot better now. It felt like if you didn't build a team with cress or weezing-galar (or will o wisp but I prefer T-Wave on Rotom) Iron Hands would blow up all your defensive mons with that dual stab combo. This thing coming in forced you to use your tera most of the time. I hope all of our water types can shine now (except quavo he needs to gtf out of here).
I'm hoping that we don't unban him. Iron Hands has been banned three times, and I'd rather keep him on the ban list for DLC2, and then potentially retest him into the tier at a later date.
I'm also concerned with how tied Iron Hands ban-worthiness is to Skeledirge. Prior to Dirge's rise to OU, Iron Hands was on the radar, but not considered an immediate target for a ban. In this thread, more people seemed to be talking about Tornadus-T. Once Skeledirge left, UU lost one of the most reliable checks to Iron Hands, and it was banned within 10 days.
I expect Skeledirge to fall back to UU this winter, since OU will get some new toys with DLC2. Dirge was only slightly above the usage cutoff, so I wouldn't be surprised if it keeps going between the two tiers. I think we will get the gator back sometime soon.
If that is the case, is Iron Hands suddenly not broken, and allowed in the tier again? If not, then shouldn't we have banned Iron Hands a while ago?
Will the survey results for the latest survey be made public? I know Iron Hands was banned which makes me believe it had a lot of support on the survey, but I'm curious as to what the threshold for GMolt was, as well as anything else that was written in. Personally I think the meta is not quite stabilized atm, but unsure if there's anything to do about it before DLC drops, though seeing what others thought would be interesting in seeing how to handle this.
Heres the last data which was provided to the council by our fellow TL Lily. As you can see Iron Hands was definitively seen as an issue by the people who answered this survey. More than 54% of the people who voted gave a 5/5 to Iron Hands (5 being "Quickban necessary" and 1 being "No action needed"). If we're adding up the people who voted 4 on Iron Hands then it's a whooping 80% of voters who deemed Iron Hands problematic for the tier and requiring action from the council. With that in mind, the council decided to held a vote on this threat and it was banned. On the other (iron) hand, Moltres-Galar only reached 2.7/5 overall. More than 43% of the voters voted 1-2 on Moltres-Galar while a third of them opted for a 3/5. Moltres-Galar didn't accumulate enough complains to be voted on by the council. I don't have more informations to provide (such as X or Y Pokémon brought out as problematic) but since DLC 2 of SV is in 2 days, I doubt the council will do anything before its release.
I came into top 363 ladder, and I didn't even want to.
I just played Sinistcha, and this mon destroyed almost every team by its own.
I don't see any counterplay to it with tera poison, and this mon is even better in a veil metagame.
Nothing ohkoes it, or it can just tera.
It can also be healed so easily and get some burn!
Here is my last game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010656604
I think that the only way to win against sinistcha is to use taunt or encore.
(Sd scizor is good but can be burned)
I just played Sinistcha, and this mon destroyed almost every team by its own.
I don't see any counterplay to it with tera poison, and this mon is even better in a veil metagame.
Nothing ohkoes it, or it can just tera.
It can also be healed so easily and get some burn!
Here is my last game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010656604
I think that the only way to win against sinistcha is to use taunt or encore.
(Sd scizor is good but can be burned)
Sinistcha is definitely really good, and it's probably better than ever right now between the strength of screens, Dirge rising, and Hands getting banned again. Colbur sets have always felt particularly brutal to me to bait Knock Offs and turn would-be checks into setup fodder without committing to Tera. But it's still got its fair share of counter-play.
Encore, as you mentioned, is your best option, and it's extremely powerful in general this gen with all of the setup `mons that terastalization empowers.
Sinistcha doesn't like strong special attackers (Hoopa-U, NP Torn, Specs Drei, Tera Ice Sandy Shocks, Goltres, Tera Flying Thundurus-I, etc) as long as they switch in early, as even strong neutral hits can keep it from CMing out of control and put it in position to be revenged. And there are a few CM sweepers who can beat it at its own game (Cress being the most viable, but there's some fun fringe stuff out there, too).
Physical attackers are mostly relegating to revenge killing Sinistcha, but there are a couple options that can get the job done from full or near to it. LO/EBelt Mamo doesn't need much chip to break it if it's pre-tera or if it's tera poison/steel (you just need to bait the tera first). Iron Leaves needs to Tera out of its Ghost weakness to win, but SD boosts will accumulate faster than Strength Sap drops and it has the bulk to stand up to a boosted hit or two, you just need to know your magic number and not get burned (one of the reasons I like Tera Fire). Shockingly, most of our other SD Sweepers don't have much to offer against 'tcha between frailty and needing too many boosts to get through.
If you find your team really struggles with Sinistcha, though, my favorite 'mon by far into it is physical Sap Sipper Hoodra. It blocks both Strength Sap and Matcha Gotcha healing, can eat even boosted Shadow Balls pretty easily, can Knock lefties, phaze with Dragon Tail, and/or wear it down with Heavy Slam (especially if it grabbed an attack boost by switching into a predicted grass move). And if you want a truly cursed option...
Most/all of this counter-play is obviously altered by screens and/or tera, but that's no different from any other setup sweeper in this frequently infuriating generation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Quaquaval got triple Axel, time to banish it to UUBL for good probably
https://pokepast.es/8a8b52aba40264ae
tl:dr i like h-lilligant
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010941740 (if i had hit head smash the game was over and i won with h-lilligant in the late game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010938850 (it puts in a lot of work nailiing mandibuzz, killing volcanion, and had i hit my WoW earlier i prob couldve had a good ending esp with mandi and volcanion gone... but this is mons so oh well)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2006251178?p2 (back when i ran tera rock for moltres... it nailed moltres and was able to check h-arc and force a ton of chip on pokemon and allowed me to have a clean path at victory thanks to it)
The deletion of replays was a huge blow on what i was gathering but also i was limited because every other member did their job often (ladder really underestimates okidogi and how danegrous it is to let it bulk up)
Soo.... h-lilli. it is a good pokemon I feel like DLC is coming soon so inevidably this post is going to be out of date but on more balance teams ive been trying to try it out, its a fun addition! trust me! thanks to victory dance you can punish a lot of choiced pokemon, pokemon that cant really threaten you easily like meow (without risking death so they most likely will u-turn away), or pokemon who want nothing to do with you like gastrodon, rotom-w (risky but if the time calls for it you can victory dance), slowking, and smth like iron treads lacking spinner or iron treads who is pretty important to the team.
Even without victory dance you can click Close combat and leaf blade and have the entire meta covered. The rising of skeledirge and amoonguss did it wonders and its a surprise for me that no one even bothered to check it out esp after they rose and it seemed like the mon that would benefit the most from it. Unfortunately DLC 2 is coming soon so this is prob going all to waste so yeah...
it feels much better than what a b- mon is.. it feels consistent enough, it does its job on a game to game basis, and it often performs up to my standards, its speedy, its strong as well, and it can clean late game esp with the coverage it has for a lot of pokemon in the tier, and its typing allows it to setup on different pokemon to!
tl:dr i like h-lilligant
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010941740 (if i had hit head smash the game was over and i won with h-lilligant in the late game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2010938850 (it puts in a lot of work nailiing mandibuzz, killing volcanion, and had i hit my WoW earlier i prob couldve had a good ending esp with mandi and volcanion gone... but this is mons so oh well)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-2006251178?p2 (back when i ran tera rock for moltres... it nailed moltres and was able to check h-arc and force a ton of chip on pokemon and allowed me to have a clean path at victory thanks to it)
The deletion of replays was a huge blow on what i was gathering but also i was limited because every other member did their job often (ladder really underestimates okidogi and how danegrous it is to let it bulk up)
Soo.... h-lilli. it is a good pokemon I feel like DLC is coming soon so inevidably this post is going to be out of date but on more balance teams ive been trying to try it out, its a fun addition! trust me! thanks to victory dance you can punish a lot of choiced pokemon, pokemon that cant really threaten you easily like meow (without risking death so they most likely will u-turn away), or pokemon who want nothing to do with you like gastrodon, rotom-w (risky but if the time calls for it you can victory dance), slowking, and smth like iron treads lacking spinner or iron treads who is pretty important to the team.
Even without victory dance you can click Close combat and leaf blade and have the entire meta covered. The rising of skeledirge and amoonguss did it wonders and its a surprise for me that no one even bothered to check it out esp after they rose and it seemed like the mon that would benefit the most from it. Unfortunately DLC 2 is coming soon so this is prob going all to waste so yeah...
it feels much better than what a b- mon is.. it feels consistent enough, it does its job on a game to game basis, and it often performs up to my standards, its speedy, its strong as well, and it can clean late game esp with the coverage it has for a lot of pokemon in the tier, and its typing allows it to setup on different pokemon to!
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is axel really that different from brave bird and ice spinner
Maybe not for Quaquaval, but Weavile and Meowscarada learning it 100% means we are saying goodbye to these mons
Does Axel even help Meow that much? In OU, I see the vision since it destroys Zapdos, but in UU, I feel like it doesn't help too much vs Meows common answers. Moltres still goobs it with Flame Body and Dogi is only neutral to the move. Lets see the calcs....
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 234-279 (61.5 - 73.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 630-744 (179.4 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 201-243 (52.4 - 63.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Enamorus-Therian: 360-432 (102.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 246-291 (53 - 62.7%) -- approx. 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 576-684 (179.4 - 213%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar: 576-684 (179.4 - 213%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 630-744 (179.4 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 201-243 (52.4 - 63.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Enamorus-Therian: 360-432 (102.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 246-291 (53 - 62.7%) -- approx. 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 576-684 (179.4 - 213%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres-Galar: 576-684 (179.4 - 213%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...On second thought, this mon probably should be QB'd with Weavile to UUBL. Maybe OUBL when the time comes....
I think Knock is better than Axel rn. You get to hit Gapdos, Goltres and Torn but Iron Leaves and Sinis already got hit by Knock and you lose the ability to hit Slowking.
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada U-turn vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Slowking: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I was talking about the Duck not Meow here I definitely think you run Axel on the Cat
I don't think Triple Axel is a straight up upgrade on Meowscarada but more like a side grade. Meowscarada already has a 4MSS. It always run Flower Trick + Knock Off + U-turn which only leaves it with one free slot. Between Spikes/Toxic Spikes, Sucker Punch, Trick and Play Rough, it's kinda tough to justify using Triple Axel. Sure you can dent a lot of Pokémon but you need to hit all your 3 hits to ensure those good damages. Otherwise, it's mid af. It's most of time way better to pivot into something that pressure the opponent's Pokémon than using Triple Axel. On Moltres it's basically x3 the risk to proc Flame Body (which is bad). Play Rough is great enough to hit Moltres-Galar and Zapdos-Galar while Knock Off cripple pretty heavily Tornadus-T. The only time Triple Axel seems better on paper is vs Enamorus-T, otherwise.. meh.
The raw damage to get kills on stuff like Torn instead of just taking away its boots is a big deal IMO, as is the fact that it hits Gus when it inevitably returns. Obviously not a straight upgrade but seems like a great addition to its tool kit, especially on choiced sets.
Loaded Dice Triple Axel always hits the max 3 times if the first hit lands
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