SV UU Metagame Discussion

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gulch

heavenly ikuyumi
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alright alright alright, time to give my takes

:ceruledge:
Don't see how this is even being considered, really. Poltergeist is a reliable Ghost STAB, and that's really cool and good, but Ceruledge has big 4MSS already (especially on Bulk Up Sets) and this just makes it worse. You really just don't have the room for all the moves you'd like and I think that, while very strong on offense structures, Ceruledge is fine. As a side note, it's also entirely possible that we could go back to ye olden days of SS and just start running itemless walls as anti-Poltergeist tech. I think this one is a very clear DNB that deserves some more development time.

:tornadus-therian:
Knock is really good on this thing and definitely helps it a lot more, but again, not entirely sure how this is what pushes it over the edge. I think that the arguments for Torn-T being banworthy aren't changed at all by it getting Knock Off, and it getting Knock Off also doesn't invalidate any of the anti-ban arguments. Kind of just a neutral thing here that, while good for Torn, doesn't really influence its place in the meta too much since it's already top dog. I very much agree with Ty here in saying that, if there was any reason to ban it, it would be the NP sets that have already been present since we got it. Fitting moves was already, again, a bit of a pain (noticing a theme here?) and adding another excellent move to the arsenal doesn't help with that issue. I think this might be worthy of a suspect later, but with how much October is likely going to change the meta and the very real possibility that Torn rises to OU anyway, I don't think banning it will accomplish much.

:quaquaval:
100% absolutely support nuking this from orbit. It was already to some degree able to pick and choose its counters, but had the issue of being completely and entirely walled out by the Slowtwins and being forced into running Tera Blast to get through them. Knock Off makes this a complete and total non-issue, and also allows Quaquaval to run other silly Teras such as Steel to put a stopper on what would otherwise be very unfavorable defensive matchups. It's much more difficult to stop the duck from getting out of control in a meta where doing so was already daunting, and I am in full support of a ban.

:ursaluna:
Where is he? Again, other great posts have spoken for me for the most part, but it's a huge constraint in the builder that very heavily victimizes fat structures and outside of this doesn't really provide anything positive to the tier aside from an offensive Ground, which we'll likely be getting in the DLC. And no, making TR cheese viable is not value.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
With the additions of new moves due to DLC release and a global evolution of the metagame, the council has decided to held a vote this next week-end : Ceruledge, Quaquaval and Tornadus-Therian are walking on eggshells.


Since joining the Underused, Ceruledge has always been a decent threat in the tier. However, it was lacking a true Ghost-type STAB but this problem is now solved thanks to Poltergeist ! Once settled up with Swords Dance, Ceruledge is able to break throught even defensive walls such as Alomomola with Poltergeist. It also allows it to punish way harder checks such as Skeledirge. With the right filler, Ceruledge can either punish threats such as Hydreigon and Tyranitar with Close Combat or eliminate faster or weakened threats thanks to Shadow Sneak. Bulk Up variants alongside Flash Fire can also shine in the right match-up making Ceruledge quite tough to deal with.


Quaquaval was already a great Pokémon in UU but with the release of the DLC : The Teal Mask, it got even better thanks to its newly access to Knock Off. It allows Quaquaval to dent or even bypass some of its old checks such as Basculegion-F, Slowking, Slowbro or Iron Leaves thanks to this new coverage. While it's true those Pokémon could lose vs some SD variants of Quaquaval, notably its Tera Ghost + Tera Blast set, this required to invest way more resources than now. Quaquaval can now opt for better Tera types such as Steel or Fire to resist Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Hurricane from Tornadus-T, or Water to increase even more the power of Aqua Step. Knock Off is also really valuable to make some progress threw the game by removing items such as Heavy-Duty Boots or Rocky Helmet from foes. All in all, Quaquaval is a premiere threat in the builder thanks to its Swords Dance variants which allows it snowball really effectively.


Tornadus-Therian has always been one of the best Pokémon in the tier and this hasn't changed at all. With the return of Knock Off in its arsenal, Tornadus-Therian can now run even more options than before while being able to be a good user of the Assault Vest thanks to Regenerator. Nasty Plot and Taunt variants are still insane to make some progress threw the game and its ability to check so much Pokémon offensively thanks to its speed and use of the right Tera types allow it to be a prime threat !

An official post will be done later this week.
The purpose of that post is to give some news to our playerbase but also a place where they could share their thoughts on those three Pokémon.
:Quaquaval:
I think most people have already said this but yeah get this thing out. It was previously held back by needing to run tera ghost tera blast to blow past basculegion and the slow twins, but now that it has knock it doesnt need tera in the slightest. Not to mention that by no longer needing tera blast, it can opt for a better tera type, for example, tera steel to block rilla grassy glide and smash it with cc. Overall yeah boot the duck

:Ceruledge:
Im a little less sold on this one, but i can kinda see why its been considered. Poltergeist is a nuclear bomb of an attack and while it may have some 4mss in needing to choose between cc and shadow sneak, the underlying issue there (imo) is that the opponent doesnt know which one it has until they show it, meaning you need to try and find it which can either involve guessing, or just sacking something to scout it. It does come with the awkwardness of not wanting to use knock off on the team very much which can be weird, but overall I wouldnt mind it being gone considering it can be a pain in the ass to both build for and play around.

:tornadus-therian:
Ehhh, i dont think this thing is really that bad. Knock was a nice addition to it but as others have said if this thing were to be banworthy over something, it would be the plot set, which in my experience most teams are at least decently prepped for with things such as hoodra, scarf gapdos or hydre, or dirge. Could maybe be a suspect in the future but rn id say DNB.

:Ursaluna:
Saw some others talking about this and figured id give my two cents about it.
Its similar to ceruledge in the regard that its a pain to both build for and play around. Primarily because the gameplan of outoffensing it doesnt really work when its healing a ton every turn from things like leftovers, rillaboom gterrain, and mola's wishes, all while its constantly threatening a bulk up sweep that you need to be worried about. A lot of the things that supposedly check it... really dont check it at all, an example being mola which just kinda has to pivot out with flip turn lest it just be set up fodder (scalding the bear is not a good idea), the things that youd use to scare it out really dont want to come in on it, and a lot of them dont answer it well at all once it gets a bulk up. The only safe-ish check is chesnaught and that HATES when the bear turns into a ghost. Not to mention having to play under the assumption that its bulk up to avoid getting swept by that, only for it to whip out the flame orb and just nuke something (I am aware that flame orb isnt nearly as good as bulk up but the amount of times ive been screwed over by it due to fears of bulk up is annoying lol)
 

Lyssa

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DPL Champion
The first thing I want to talk about in this preface is why this vote is happening. This is an important point to me to mention for multiple reasons such as having been the most vocal person in council about this happening, or people taking it as a canon event due to SCL starting next week or there being an uu circuit tournament running at the moment in homefield. We also do realize that in just under 2 weeks we'll be receiving some tier warping drops and are on the verge of a completely different metagame. So, why is this happening? The answer, to me, is that the meta just feels borderline underplayable. I've been playing an unhealthy amount of games over the last week between ladder and friendlies, have tried pretty much every single style of teams and the only one I found even a little bit of consistency with was HO. Everything else felt pretty much horrible, all of what the tier was built around previously to me, in things such as AV Tornadus-T, Iron Treads or Skeledirge as a whole and more, runs into things or dynamics that you feel like you have no way around. The tier at this point in time feels like an hot mess: I do realize that maybe in just 2 weeks what we'll be voting on today will be completely fine, but leaving it as it is, even for just 10 days, would be madness to me.



Quaquaval is stupid broken and thankfully I don't need to spend much words on why since multiple people on this thread already said it. I just want to add that I think this mon really has no counterplay in the slightest outside of specifically max def water Skeledirge. Alomomola isn't real, both Sub and Lum Berry turn that into complete fodder and those are pretty much what i consider to be the best Quaquaval sets. Chesnaught and tera fairy Gastrodon do their job until they get randomly botted(I wish I could say that hasn't happened to me before), but also I don't consider them to be top mons at the moment nor they feel splashable to me, Chesnaught in particular has felt horrible ever since new moves landed. And lastly, Normalizing Colbur berry or the more optimal itemless on Slowking is not it. A mon like Slowking shouldn't be forced to run such a weak or better yet no item due to a presence within the tier, that's as close to unhealthiness as you can get, especially when considering how whatever you're looking to do back Quaquaval has an answer to. Things like that are team-specific techs to make certain MUs feel somewhat winnable, but you can't sacrifice your main intent and interactions to pretty much everything else for something like that.


I'm honestly shocked people haven't found this mon as oppressive as I think it is. Quite honestly, I don't think this is far away from Quaquaval, in terms of raw power level it's there it's just way more obvious what it's going to do and there are things you can plan around doing that can shut it down or at least negate it's opportunities to setup. They're just.. insanely hard to actually pull off, and to make it obvious what I'm talking about here is the Sash/Boots Weak Armor SD Stabs+CC set, as I think Flash Fire BU or whatever people are using is just a waste of a Ceruledge. There are like 2 total mons that come to my mind that don't get OHKO'd at +2, Bitter Blade is a stupid move especially with how it interacts with sash, and finally this is not something HO should be allowed to tool with. Having a mon that not only punishes the single best positioning tool available but also generates winning paths out of pretty much not allowing your opponent to play the game does not feel like it belongs in the tier. I'm having an hard time explaining this concept but I've had multiple games where a gamestate with a Ceruledge hitting the field from full was inevitable and at that point there was just nothing that could've been done. And truthfully, I'm not looking at a too niche of an example here, I haven't found playing with a clean field to be too hard for HO in this meta. I wish I had more examples than just this replay (I always forget to save my games x.x, ty to whoever i played for an actually nice example), but letting aside that I should've lost this game as I had lost the final 50/50, I had a really poor MU and luck wasn't on my side either here, yet it came down to this and I personally don't believe it was down to my opponent taking a bad route since clicking bleakwind doesn't make for a better pathing in reality. And to finish this paragraph, I also think that CB is dumb to some extent, the raw damage it has means it pretty much has no switchin that is safe from getting 2hko'd if not ohko'd, I just haven't tried it and wish other people did since they probably have a better understanding of it.


Ok I already wrote too much on here so gonna keep it short: do I think this mon produces healthy dynamics? Not particularly. Do I think this mon is broken? no. Does the tier go to shit if we ban this mon? yes. I'm not gonna vote ban on something that isn't broken, especially on tornt at this point in time. Others have said the long version and I will too when i write the thingy for the vote description.

And to close this post off, I personally have had 0 troubles with Ursaluna and found it to be worse than it was previously if anything, while some of the reasons I had to like it's introductions to the tier aren't particularly relevant anymore, I don't even believe it's unhealthy or anything so, and HO meta doesn't help it either. If there is something I believe is probably missing from the vote that is Rillaboom but I also think it's too early to give a fair judgement to it.

tldr; voting Ban on Quaquaval and Ceruledge, DNB on tornt. Haven't found Ursaluna to be anything crazy, Rillaboom is in my radar
 

Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
And to close this post off, I personally have had 0 troubles with Ursaluna and found it to be worse than it was previously if anything, while some of the reasons I had to like it's introductions to the tier aren't particularly relevant anymore, I don't even believe it's unhealthy or anything so, and HO meta doesn't help it either. If there is something I believe is probably missing from the vote that is Rillaboom but I also think it's too early to give a fair judgement to it.
TBH even if ursaluna isnt exactly broken in the HO meta, it destroys fatter playstyles with either bulk up drain punch or flame orb and it's not really possible to tell on preview, and even vs offense it regularly goes 1 for 1. It seems basically like the Annihilape of UU, and needs to be banned if we want to go back to a more balance-centered meta.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
I really hope Alomomola won't rise to OU because I've been dreaming of that set of Alomomola. Flip Turn + Wish is trully fantastic, there isn't any other word to describe it. It allows Alomomola to be one of the greatest Wish passer that ever existed. Scald is just the icing on the cake and allows it to punish physical threats and weaken other ones thanks to the burn.
erm, actually, y'all had this opportunity last generation with Vaporeon

of course no Regenerator, but this combination described existed. vaporeon was also an ok Pokemon last gen don't @ me

duck probably has to go, Torn T is a menace, excited to see how things shape up
 

Ok I already wrote too much on here so gonna keep it short: do I think this mon produces healthy dynamics? Not particularly. Do I think this mon is broken? no. Does the tier go to shit if we ban this mon? yes.
Honestly I think we are better off without torn-t but I do see the benefits of keeping it around

Edit: My bad had to fix the post since I accidentally embedded my comment in the quote
 
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Like past gens Lando-T, It has tremendous utility but is not broken. It never sweeps the entire of team and never break its checks and counters. Knock off doesnt buff NP(the only sweeper set).
1695262829095.png

It is broken. BUT, I believe that there is a good chance that this Pokémon will be healthy for the DLC shift. It relies on Aqua Step for its speed boost so it is likely to be revenge killed after killing a Pokémon with Tera Blast, and its bulk is not large enough so I dont think quaq is as unreasonable as roaring moon or iron hands at present. In addition, Rillaboom is a fairly powerful revenge killer so quaq is currently already highly dependent on Terra, and it is likely that more Pokémon will be unable to defeat it in the future.
1695264097498.png

I don't think this Pokémon even deserves an A-rank; it can be handled by common physical tanks such as alomomola and salamence, and is easy to play without activating weak armor or exploit with priority moves. It is only a passing fad due to the availability of new toys, so banning them is clearly wrong.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:Ceruledge:
I gave this thing a second look and now i kinda think it should be removed from the tier fully

On top of just murdering nearly everything at +2 it isnt really that frail or that slow, meaning that it finds plenty of opportunities to set up. Not to mention the fact that weak armor allows it to outspeed literally everything including scarfers, all while resisting every single priority we have (including :lokix: tinted lens first impression), meaning it doesnt really need shadow sneak and can probably just put cc always. :Rillaboom: can kinda threaten but ONLY if is both chipped and at -1, meaning the only real way to prevent it from getting usually a free kill is to have both :alomomola: and :rillaboom:, go mola as it sd's (make sure you have around at least 70%), flip turn as it does nearly all of your health with polter, go rilla, nuke with glide.

:Salamence: kinda works as a check due to intimidate, but imo it feels a bit odd to fit on a team because theres like a bajillion knock offs (especially on the things itd normally switch into like :scizor:, :rillaboom:, and :quaquaval:) flying around that it hates + its not really that bulky and takes a lot from most non-resisted attacks from what ive seen from it, meaning it has to click roost a lot rather than throw off attacks.

Maybe im being overdramatic but i really dont see how ceruledge contributes to the tier positively at all, especially over the negatives.
 
Regenerator + Knock Off is an unhealthy combination if the Mon is already good, so Torna-T gotta go.
Knock Off breaks the ugly duck too, he doesn't belong to UU anymore.
From what I have been playing, Ceruledge is much stronger than before but still fine. The abundance of Knock Off not only threatens it, but also limits Knock Off usage in its own teams, since it depends on Poltergeist KOs pretty often.
 
:quaquaval: I don’t have much to add that people haven’t already said. With the right Tera and moves, it can circumvent all of its usual counterplay. Please ban this

:ceruledge: I haven’t seen or built with it enough to form any strong opinions. CC vs sneak and weak armor mindgames seem frustrating on paper but idk how effective they are in practice. If I had to vote on it, I’d probably lean ban from what little I’ve seen, but I could be convinced either way and I won’t be unhappy with the outcome.

:tornadus-therian: The main reason I wanted to make a post, I don’t think banning torn is a great idea. I won’t deny that torn is a little strong for the tier, especially with the lack of good flying resists. However, I believe that the good torn brings to the table outweighs the bad. A fast ground immune with plenty of utility from taunt to knock off to u-turn is huge role compression for balance and BO teams. Its incredible longevity and ability to eat a strong hit or two is also valuable. Nothing can quite offer as much in one slot as torn does, and it’s a very common glue for a reason. So, while I think torn is a bit strong for the tier, I think banning it would only restrict team building instead of helping it.

TL;DR Ban quaq, DNB torn, idk on edge
 
I am always extremely skeptical of snowball "win-more" mons like Magearna, Spectrier, Naganadel, etc. I think the general framework for these types of one-dimensional ability mons is ban first and ask questions later. Defensive Quac is an unfortunate casualty of this necessary QB because it has a really useful defensive profile with spin and recovery while still not being totally passive. It is definitely an unhealthy presence in the tier (I'd argue it was even before knock) but now it's just absurd.
 

Amane Misa

Bring Them Home Now!
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:quaquaval:
Quaquaval was a good sweeper to begin with but what held it back is the fact it couldn't really make progress so in order to sweep; it either needed a really good matchup or a lot of support to break bulky Water-types and eventually win.

Thanks to Knock Off, Quaquaval has now become an incredible progress maker that can also break Slowbro. It also rides on the Alomomola trend because it literally sets up on Alomomola unless it gets burnt.

In short, don't think Quaquaval currently has a positive impact on the tier because it easily makes progress for itself, can break the most reliable counters it used to have and can usually easily snowballs for the rest of the game.

:ceruledge:
Ceruledge received the physical Ghost-type nuke it always wished it had. Consequently, it can now break past the bulky-Water types it previously couldn't.

However, in order to sweep it relies on the fact its opponent hits it with a physical move. It's too cheesy in my opinion for it to be banworthy because without the speed boost it's just an average-speed breaker but I guess we will have to see on that one.

:ursaluna:
Nothing really changed for it since I last voted on it; the metagame has adapted to it and the set that immediately kills everything usually gets one kill and then is easily traded. Its best set is probably Specially Defensive Bulk Up but it lacks the immediate power Facade-sets do and is relatively hard to fit onto teams.

I'd like to take this opportunity to share a fun and unique team I have had success with (I've been laddering quite often and this team kept me between 1600-1700 elo pretty reliably).

:Alomomola: :ditto: :quaquaval: :arcanine-hisui: :Iron treads: :tornadus-therian:
https://pokepast.es/513e6bfbdedf34f9

Alomomola + Ditto is a very interesting core. While a lot of setup sweepers have been taking advantage of Alomomola's passivity to set up, Flip Turn + Ditto in the back prevents them from mindlessly doing that. I added Quaquaval because it can make progress for its own sweep without the need for a strong wallbreaker, added AV Tornadus-T because it pairs well with Alomomola, forming a Regenerator-core between a physical and a special wall. Lastly, I added another of my favorite cores, Hisuian Arcanine + Iron Treads to patch up the team; Hisuian Arcanine is the most reliable SR setter in the tier and it also acts like a wallbreaker and a revenge killer, and Iron Treads is a really good hazard remover that also grants the team a Steel- and a Ground-type.

No strong special wallbreaker means opposing physical walls like Alomomola and Slowbro can be a pain but as long as Quaquaval isn't instantly burnt by Scald it should be OK. Plus, you can always stall them out with Ditto :heart: .
 
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struggling by getting ur ass kicked by quav, ceruledge, and ursaluna? well problem solved

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Foul Play

here is the legendary set that can fix that, the absolute snail can wall them and still force progress.. it feels everyone forgot about it while it can be annoying asf for most teams to switch into it esp if they dont have an alomomola and knock off the boots can be a really helpful progress maker

(i have a funny taunt set but i thought it was to not standard to be here... i like taunt wo chine because it fucks over chilly reception slowking, quag, hippo, alo and other mons)

Wo chien also kicks some ass against mons like gyarados, dd mence, sd scizor, and other things
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Having now used most of the questionable guys pretty extensively and faced them pretty extensively, I think I have a good enough grip on all of them now to comment well.

Of the three under investigation, I think Ceruledge is the most problematic. After losing the game Lyssa posted as a replay above, I decided to try Ceruledge out on a few different team configurations. Used on balance or bulky offense Ceruledge is okay; beating it with defensive play is basically impossible, so it's a nice breaker in a tier chock full of devastating breakers, punishing the occasional mistake (that is, weak physical attacks) with huge sweeps. Where it really gets ridiculous is on screens offense--now *any* physical attacks becomes a big issue, and the opponent is far less likely to be able to wear Ceruledge down into Rillaboom's Grassy Glide range. Poltergeist is an incredible upgrade, Alomomola (the premier Water type right now) and Quaquaval become non-answers, Skeledirge is a very inconsistent answer. I am in favor of banning Ceruledge.

Quaquaval is kind of ridiculous when it runs three attacks and Swords Dance, especially behind screens (obviously), but it has real limitations in ways Ceruledge struggles less with: it is very dependent on Tera to avoid being forced out by Rillaboom, it has to Swords Dance on the switch in to do much of anything to physically defensive threats like Alomomola and Bellibolt which are really excellent in the metagame right now. I'm on the fence as to whether I would want to ban this, there is just enough counterplay that you (should) never feel helpless against it from team preview.

Tornadus-T is a net positive and not, in the present metagame, especially overpowered. If you really don't like it, Bellibolt is a very real and underrated Pokemon at the moment, especially with the addition of Toxic to not get stonewalled by Gastrodon, Rillaboom, etc. Without Big Belli, Tornadus-T is still far from unstoppable, since it is so common to Knock Off its Boots or Assault Vest, and since Torn loses its ability to switch in on many Pokemon it theoretically checks once it is taking Stealth Rock damage--CB Rillaboom, for instance, can cause Tornadus-T to become overloaded in a heartbeat. Nasty Plot does not seem nearly so easy to bring in repeatedly as just a little while ago. To me, this is an easy do not ban.


Finally, I'd like to mention that three other Pokemon really grabbed my attention:
Ursaluna is still pretty nuts. Bulk Up Ursaluna on screens offense is a known quantity, so I don't feel the need to talk extensively about it. However, I feel that four attacks Flame Orb Ursaluna is also extremely oppressive. Facade/(Ground move)/Trailblaze/ (Crunch or Drain Punch) does so much damage that so ridiculously hard to mitigate if it is brought in against something slow and/or passive that only the presence of Rillaboom gives me any sense of security. The intense difference between the two sets is also a big problem when you see it in team preview. I'd love to get this out of UU.
Second, Rillaboom is even better than the press it gets. The speed control and breaking elements are the center of attention, but the presence of Knock Off/U-turn/Fighting moves/High Horsepower in its move pool makes it a phenomenal lure. Considering the extremely favorable metagame for it at the moment, this is edging very close to an auto-include on many of my teams.
Finally, joined at the hip with Rillaboom, I think we should keep a wary eye on Hawlucha. It's a little less consistent off of screens, but not a lot less consistent. A lot of the offensive and balance teams right now get swept outright by Hawlucha, and a good deal of defensive counterplay against it depends on getting favorable procs from Scald (Alomomola) or Discharge/Static (Bellibolt). Again, this is really joined closely with Rillaboom because of Grassy Seed, so if Rilla becomes less good that will impact Lucha by association.

In summary, this metagame is absolutely loaded with game-busting threats, especially behind screens, and this despite the fact that we have outstanding defensive cores available to us, like Alomomola + AMuk or Hoodra. Something needs to be done to bring offense back in line a little.
 
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I’d also like to at least look at a light clay ban. It enables degenerate cheese and barring weird techs like brick break or psychic fang, you’re very unlikely to Defog screens away. Offense is way too strong rn, if anyone has a defense of light clay I’d love to hear it.
 
:Ceruledge:
So I have thoughts on this mon... I really hate Ceruledge and its presence in the tier. To get one thing out of the way, yes the mon is quite linear in what it intends to do and is relegated to hyper offense for the most part. That said, lines into Ledge in-game are often extremely awkward and actually managing it in tandem w all the other sweepers ull see is not particularly pleasant. The snowball potential is dangerously high and if you can get it in at full then you often have scenarios where your opp can't attack into ledge yet simultaneously rlly can't afford to let it boost for free. Provided you keep hazards off then Sash forces a lot of very obnoxious lose-lose situations and getting in Ledge in front of something to put your opp in an awful position feels borderline inevitable w/o surgical positioning. Even if you are in control of whether or not it gets the speed boost, the problem remains that the mon is extremely potent offensively and you have to attack into it. Issue being that physical mons can dono a sweep via weak armor and the naturally high spd means it can usually take 1 -> bblade if you're going that route. Either way you rlly just need to get it in on the right mon and it's going to be a massive problem for your opp and has v realistic potential to just run away w games on a disturbingly frequent basis. You can run itemless mons to mitigate the threat of Polt, but quite frankly the opportunity cost is painfully evident and suboptimal into almost everything else, not good! Overall really do not love this as apart of the tier w how easily it slots on HO and how volatile games can b with it in the equation, get it out!

:quaquaval:
Knock compounded what was imo an already existing issue w the sheer amount of set variety the mon had, in its current state I think it needs to go. Personally think even prior to DLC the tblast ghost stuff was already getting obnoxious, but at the bare minimum there was an opportunity cost w tera necessity. Can't say I love how barren consistent cplay feels if not outright nonexistent at times depending on the set. It's really not anchored to one set either and there's a number of adaptations you can make to abuse w/e "check." Fwiw I do think Rillaboom alleviates the issue to some degree (admittedly a fantastic mon), but I think as it stands its just too great as cheesing through a significant portion of "counterplay" and running over teams. Sad that we lose a viable spinner & a splashable k9 check but w/e that's just how it goes.

:Tornadus-Therian:
Slot machine tendencies are annoying, but its just not broken in its current state imo. Just a pretty consistent and appreciated defensive presence most of the time. Knocks obv a v strong tool for Utility oriented sets, but it hasn't really felt explicitly overbearing in any regard from my experience. NPs perhaps the one set you could point to as a threat, but it also hasn't felt particularly broken from my personal experience. Regardless, I don't have much to add onto everything else that has been said, think he's fine as it stands.
 
1695507409260.png

I don't like this Mon's presence. It has a lot of viable sets it can be a bulky support mon, a progress maker or a sweeper. Even within those sets it has a lot of variety for moves and Tera Types. It all creates a guessing game that if you guess wrong can end your game. I also think its very difficult to revenge kill since Water/Fighting resists First Impression, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard and Bullet Punch leaving Grassy Glide, Extreme Speed and Mach Punch as only priority it doesn't resist. However Tera Steel turns 1695507946795.pnginto a set up fodder. Aqua Step is insanely spammable and at +1 1695507409260.pngoutspeeds
1695508004829.png
. It's a Mon that's difficult to check both offensively and defensively and who has a lot of variety while also having potential to sweep your team.

1695508280168.png

I don't know if it's broken but I do see why it could be problematic. Personally I only played with Focus Sash variant which can sometimes have issue with coming on the field if hazards are up. However once it does it can be very difficult to stop it between speed boost, swords dance and Bitter Blade healing. It's not actually that frial since at 0HP/0Def it gets to live a
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Sucker Punch so long Rocks arent up and potentially kill it with Bitter Bladel screens making the issue is even worse. Poltergeist has the luxury of ignoring Rocky Helmet and at +2 dealing over 50% to
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, it can't be burned with Scald either and the only real reliable answer it has is
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since Earthquake threatens it a ton, Toxic puts it on a timer, Unaware ignores the boosts and can set up Spikes to break sash, however I don't think 1695509814830.pngis currently that great. It is however a very linear mon in it's playstyle and you more or less expect everything it can do at team preview. I can accept either outcome of the vote.

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I don't think it's broken. I think it's a very strong Mon with great utility and set up potential between Nasty Plot, U-Turn, Taunt and Knock as well as good offensive movepool. I don't think it's impossible to check defensively or offensively and it's biggest strength is being insanely splashable and consistent. I think the tier is worse off without it's most reliable Flying type attacker.
 
To be honest, the only quickban I expect to see is Quaquaval, because it quite literally is ridiculous now and impossible to check thanks to knock off.

It was already annoying to play against but now its outright broken.

Gonna be sad to see Quaquaval go since it was a ton of fun to use, but at least it tore up the UU metagame and can rest happy in BL hell with the occasional small OU niche like it has had in the past
 
Oh I haven't noticed the update and that 1695548722148.pngwas taken off before my post. Tornadus-W

Anyway I don't think much of anything has changed for
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since the DLC except
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letting it come more easily with Flip Turn. Knock Off being more common means Flame Orb sets have to be more careful when they come in and Bulk Up lose Lefties more easily. Overall I think its less oppressive than both
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and
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and would rather keep an eye on it post drops rather than ban it out right.
 
I just remembered that we are gonna have to deal with rises and drops in a week.

What do you guys think is gonna rise out of UU or drop into UU?

I'm thinking that OU gets Tornadus-T and we finally get Sandy Shocks and we somehow end up with Clodsire (would be cool, and lately I haven't seen it much.), as well as all the other drops (Kinda hoping we get Meowscarada again, because it could be fun to have back here).
 

Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Flip Turn
- Mirror Coat

Metagame gonna change a shit ton in a week but while we can still play that big fish, I guess it's worth to share this "set". I feel like Mirror Coat Alomomola is a something really decent and I actually found it better than Scald variants. Fishing (you got the pun right ? right ?!) for burns is nice but being able to OHKO almost anything is way better in so many scenarios. Alongside Tera, Alomomola can lure so many threats such as Tornadus-T, Thundurus-I/T or Basculegion-F which would like to pressure it and overall trade vs a shit ton of special attackers. I feel like Wish/Tect + Flip Turn is basically what Alomomola really needs and that fourth slot is customable. Alomomola has such a huge HP stats that it can really punish a shit ton with Mirror Coat. Tera pairs well with that move too.
 
:Armarouge:
Armarouge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Grass / Normal / Fighting
Modest Nature
- Aura Sphere / Calm Mind
- Armor Cannon
- Psychic
- Energy Ball

WishTurn Mola has enabled quite a few different random bulky attackers. I have been messing around with a non-HO Armarouge build to moderate success. I am a fan of four attacks, it has absolutely insane coverage. Tera Normal is useful with Calm Mind for using standard Skeli as setup bait and to dodge random shadow balls. Your tera type is fairly customizable based on what troubles your team, Fighting is nice for bopping Ttar which is picking up in use.
 
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