Knock torn-t sounds kinda busted for UU (Torn-t was already straddling the line of being broken imo.), good thing that it should get it sent to OU in a month or two now that its most important utility move in its kit was given back to it.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
SV UU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
- Status
Agreed. Same with Quaquaval and Zapdos-Galar, two more birds who probably should've been UUBL in the first place
Have been playing a few dozen of games and so far, it's a blast. Tier feel so fresh even tho we didn't get anything yet. I feel like some Pokémon really stood up after the release of that first DLC, so let me share with you my thoughts.
Knock Off is back :
Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Knock Off is a bless for Lokix and pairs really well alongside Tinted Lens. It's a straight up upgrade from before. Being able to remove Heavy-Duty Boots, Rocky Helmet etc.. from its checks is really nice and allows it to make some real progress threw games. Unlike other Pokémon I'll talk about in this post, I don't think Knock Off pushes Lokix over the edge. It's just better now so it's nice. Really good alongside teams that rely on Volt-Turn.
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Holy fucking shit, duck is cracked. Knock Off is insanly valuable on Quaquaval and allows it to bypass most of its checks it had prior DLC. People were running Tera Ghost + Tera Blast but Knock Off is just a 2.0 upgrade of that set (except for the Normal/Fighting-types immunities). I swept so many games on the ladder with this Pokémon, it's frankly quite insane. Knock Off dents things such as Tera Ghost Gastrodon, Basculegion-F, Slowbro and Slowking..it's just so great for this Pokémon. I've been messing with Tera Water just to abuse Aqua Step and it's probably the best Tera for Quaquaval now. I think Quaquaval is a Pokémon which could be considered too good. I'm willing to see how people are going to adapt to it. Tera Steel probably legit too for the rare Grassy Glide Rillaboom and resistance to Fairy/Psychic-types.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Trailblaze
Well, well, well..Scizor doens't need Thief or Fling Big Nugget anymore because Knock Off is the way to go. Being able to dent Skeledirge + removing its Heavy-Duty Boots is just too good to forego. I don't think this change is as big as for Quaquaval but this makes Scizor better for sure.
I have been messing with SD Sash Weavile alongside Beat Up + Knock Off and..it's ok I guess ? I trully think Choice Band variants are way more threatening thanks to Weavile's speed tier and Tera Dark. There isn't a lot of Pokémon which can handle a CB Tera Dark Knock Off, is kinda insane how much damage this Pokémon can do.
Haven't tried a lot those 4 but they do feel better now with Knock Off. I still think Nasty Plot / Taunt Tornadus-T are better variants than Knock Off ones, maybe on some AV set this could be legit. Tyranitar loves that move but it struggles in the current state of the metagame. Zapdos-G got a nice filler and coverage. Last but not least, Knock Off is great on Zarude, like really great. Pivot set with Heavy-Duty Boots could really shine one the metagame is more stabilized.
Other buff :
Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
Poltergeist is a massive buff for Ceruledge and allows it to really dish out a shit ton of damages after a Swords Dance. I've been liking this buff a lot. It's straightforward so I won't talk too much about it. It's just kinda iffy to play since we got so much Knock Off users which is counterproductive alongside Poltergeist but otherwise, it's a great addition.
Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Flip Turn
I really hope Alomomola won't rise to OU because I've been dreaming of that set of Alomomola. Flip Turn + Wish is trully fantastic, there isn't any other word to describe it. It allows Alomomola to be one of the greatest Wish passer that ever existed. Scald is just the icing on the cake and allows it to punish physical threats and weaken other ones thanks to the burn. Just a fantastic defensive tool for the tier, I love it !
Knock Off is back :
Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
Knock Off is a bless for Lokix and pairs really well alongside Tinted Lens. It's a straight up upgrade from before. Being able to remove Heavy-Duty Boots, Rocky Helmet etc.. from its checks is really nice and allows it to make some real progress threw games. Unlike other Pokémon I'll talk about in this post, I don't think Knock Off pushes Lokix over the edge. It's just better now so it's nice. Really good alongside teams that rely on Volt-Turn.
Quaquaval @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
Holy fucking shit, duck is cracked. Knock Off is insanly valuable on Quaquaval and allows it to bypass most of its checks it had prior DLC. People were running Tera Ghost + Tera Blast but Knock Off is just a 2.0 upgrade of that set (except for the Normal/Fighting-types immunities). I swept so many games on the ladder with this Pokémon, it's frankly quite insane. Knock Off dents things such as Tera Ghost Gastrodon, Basculegion-F, Slowbro and Slowking..it's just so great for this Pokémon. I've been messing with Tera Water just to abuse Aqua Step and it's probably the best Tera for Quaquaval now. I think Quaquaval is a Pokémon which could be considered too good. I'm willing to see how people are going to adapt to it. Tera Steel probably legit too for the rare Grassy Glide Rillaboom and resistance to Fairy/Psychic-types.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Trailblaze
Well, well, well..Scizor doens't need Thief or Fling Big Nugget anymore because Knock Off is the way to go. Being able to dent Skeledirge + removing its Heavy-Duty Boots is just too good to forego. I don't think this change is as big as for Quaquaval but this makes Scizor better for sure.
I have been messing with SD Sash Weavile alongside Beat Up + Knock Off and..it's ok I guess ? I trully think Choice Band variants are way more threatening thanks to Weavile's speed tier and Tera Dark. There isn't a lot of Pokémon which can handle a CB Tera Dark Knock Off, is kinda insane how much damage this Pokémon can do.
Haven't tried a lot those 4 but they do feel better now with Knock Off. I still think Nasty Plot / Taunt Tornadus-T are better variants than Knock Off ones, maybe on some AV set this could be legit. Tyranitar loves that move but it struggles in the current state of the metagame. Zapdos-G got a nice filler and coverage. Last but not least, Knock Off is great on Zarude, like really great. Pivot set with Heavy-Duty Boots could really shine one the metagame is more stabilized.
Other buff :
Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
Poltergeist is a massive buff for Ceruledge and allows it to really dish out a shit ton of damages after a Swords Dance. I've been liking this buff a lot. It's straightforward so I won't talk too much about it. It's just kinda iffy to play since we got so much Knock Off users which is counterproductive alongside Poltergeist but otherwise, it's a great addition.
Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Flip Turn
I really hope Alomomola won't rise to OU because I've been dreaming of that set of Alomomola. Flip Turn + Wish is trully fantastic, there isn't any other word to describe it. It allows Alomomola to be one of the greatest Wish passer that ever existed. Scald is just the icing on the cake and allows it to punish physical threats and weaken other ones thanks to the burn. Just a fantastic defensive tool for the tier, I love it !
thoughts about some mons I used:
I remembered how strong the move toxic is. This move is huge pressure for mons which are not steel or poison type. Learning something that other Pokémon cannot use is very important, as evidenced by the fact that Decidueye and Talonflame were useful in pre-home because they could learn defog. Umbreon is currently very good in the metagame and it works outside of stall.
This Pokemon not only got grassy glide, but also received another buff, with iron treads getting high horsepower. Rillaboom team is much easier to play. Im using band rillaboom but it will be the best set even if you are not udongirl.
By many pokemons have learned knock off, it can give up it and run other moves(volt switch iron head stealth rock etc.) The day when donphan falls will not be far off (I thought high horsepower was one of the reasons why we use donphan over treads.).
and I agree knock is huge buff for quaq and many dark types. thank you for reading my post.
I remembered how strong the move toxic is. This move is huge pressure for mons which are not steel or poison type. Learning something that other Pokémon cannot use is very important, as evidenced by the fact that Decidueye and Talonflame were useful in pre-home because they could learn defog. Umbreon is currently very good in the metagame and it works outside of stall.
This Pokemon not only got grassy glide, but also received another buff, with iron treads getting high horsepower. Rillaboom team is much easier to play. Im using band rillaboom but it will be the best set even if you are not udongirl.
By many pokemons have learned knock off, it can give up it and run other moves(volt switch iron head stealth rock etc.) The day when donphan falls will not be far off (I thought high horsepower was one of the reasons why we use donphan over treads.).
and I agree knock is huge buff for quaq and many dark types. thank you for reading my post.
Some thoughts for stuff
Knock off was a godsend for this, it can now knock the fires and flyings that used to abuse it and watch as they take 25% on each switch in (except
but you get what i mean).
While not too big for it, knock is a fun option on the dtail set as it can now remove boots itself while shuffling too take advantage of hazards easier.
This thing is the devil, flip turn makes it a super annoying pivot to effectively kill as well as making it easier for it to pass wishes, and pairing it with makes for a painful pair to bust down without set up mon that doesnt mind scald burns.
This thing HATES all the knock offs flying around making it harder for it to check stuff. Its still prob a fine answer to most sweepers but you have to be so much more careful with it now.
Knock off was a godsend for this, it can now knock the fires and flyings that used to abuse it and watch as they take 25% on each switch in (except
but you get what i mean).While not too big for it, knock is a fun option on the dtail set as it can now remove boots itself while shuffling too take advantage of hazards easier.
This thing is the devil, flip turn makes it a super annoying pivot to effectively kill as well as making it easier for it to pass wishes, and pairing it with
makes for a painful pair to bust down without set up mon that doesnt mind scald burns.This thing HATES all the knock offs flying around making it harder for it to check stuff. Its still prob a fine answer to most sweepers but you have to be so much more careful with it now.
Last edited:
This mon was already incredibly polarising and knock off makes it even better, checking it is incredibly unreliable.
Knock definitely makes torn better but I think it's less broken now than it was before if anything, weavile becoming good hurts it a bit and support sets feel comfortably better than np for me rn, and I felt np was very close to problematic before dlc. Answering this with more defensive teams is probably still incredibly difficult and maybe it's not a healthy presence overall but I quite like it.
Knock off makes this mon really good, it's biggest issue is breaking mola. If you face offense/ho type stuff it's great although you have to be mindful of quaq, requires good support to break through more defensively oriented teams.
This mon is crazy good, I've only used cb and I think it's the best set but sd sets are also probably good, glide is a really easy wincon to play towards and there aren't very many mons that wanna switch in on wood hammer, and the mons that do hate taking knock.
I honestly kinda underestimated just how big flip turn and scald would be for this mon. Unless it runs into a water immunity it has 3 moves every turn with pretty much no drawback in scald/flip turn/wish, all of which require different responses. The slow flip turn + wish in combination with ursaluna feels incredibly powerful, and punishing alomomola feels like a choice you made in the builder rather than something you can do while playing.
Other thoughts:
really nice for messing with mola, also functions as a weavile/scizor check somewhat. Everything getting knock hurt this mon a lot, tera fairy will still wall your whole team if you ignore it though. 
this probably isn't broken but it's dumb. 
sd scale shot is legit as hell, hax was desperate for half decent dragon stab and it got it. 
rillaboom being really good makes this mon a lot better, has some other cool uses. 
incredibly difficult to deal with in the builder. 
best ground type in the tier.
@ Heavy-Duty BootsAbility: Defiant
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic / Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Thundy feels like a very very strong mon now... knock off means its better than its counterpart and can function similarly to its SS version. This set can force a lot of progress esp with knock + u-turn being good progress makers... I like tera electric because often times u dont need other tera and it can help u clean late game
@ Life OrbAbility: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Shock
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Rest
Idk how it is but this feels more creative than actually viable but i wanted to show it off anyway... Currently seed bomb is there for mons like quag, hippo, and other things... but with quag becoming less popular and hippo in general feeling like its shifted to be more sp. def i feel u can drop it in favor of knock off and be good to go since knock off helps removing items on a pokemon like donphan, chestnaught, mence, scream tail, and others. Tera fighting is to allow pawmot to break through pokemon such as hippo, donphan, chest, and rillaboom better
@ Leftovers Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Knock Off
Knock off is pretty darn good on this mon... so what can it do? well it can help cripple a lot of pokemon like gastrodon, slowking, sp. def hippo, and others... i feel its a pretty good tool to have esp when u faec smth like av torn-t or a-muk
@ Heavy-Duty Boots Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Ruination
- Taunt
- Leech Seed
What does this set even do? well leech seed + knock is a pretty darn good progress maker as always and can be able to chip a lot of things you wouldnt be able to with a rest talk set... but why is taunt here? am i nuts? well taunt helps vs smth like wish alo which can pp stall it easily, or smth like spikes chestnaught, what about slowking trying to chilly reception to scizor, that quagsire isnt getting free hazards and toxic off on you, no hazards for u gastrodon. This set feels like it has a lot of potential
Use Brute Bonnet.
use wo chien
With the additions of new moves due to DLC release and a global evolution of the metagame, the council has decided to held a vote this next week-end : Ceruledge, Quaquaval and Tornadus-Therian are walking on eggshells.
Since joining the Underused, Ceruledge has always been a decent threat in the tier. However, it was lacking a true Ghost-type STAB but this problem is now solved thanks to Poltergeist ! Once settled up with Swords Dance, Ceruledge is able to break throught even defensive walls such as Alomomola with Poltergeist. It also allows it to punish way harder checks such as Skeledirge. With the right filler, Ceruledge can either punish threats such as Hydreigon and Tyranitar with Close Combat or eliminate faster or weakened threats thanks to Shadow Sneak. Bulk Up variants alongside Flash Fire can also shine in the right match-up making Ceruledge quite tough to deal with.
Quaquaval was already a great Pokémon in UU but with the release of the DLC : The Teal Mask, it got even better thanks to its newly access to Knock Off. It allows Quaquaval to dent or even bypass some of its old checks such as Basculegion-F, Slowking, Slowbro or Iron Leaves thanks to this new coverage. While it's true those Pokémon could lose vs some SD variants of Quaquaval, notably its Tera Ghost + Tera Blast set, this required to invest way more resources than now. Quaquaval can now opt for better Tera types such as Steel or Fire to resist Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Hurricane from Tornadus-T, or Water to increase even more the power of Aqua Step. Knock Off is also really valuable to make some progress threw the game by removing items such as Heavy-Duty Boots or Rocky Helmet from foes. All in all, Quaquaval is a premiere threat in the builder thanks to its Swords Dance variants which allows it snowball really effectively.
Tornadus-Therian has always been one of the best Pokémon in the tier and this hasn't changed at all. With the return of Knock Off in its arsenal, Tornadus-Therian can now run even more options than before while being able to be a good user of the Assault Vest thanks to Regenerator. Nasty Plot and Taunt variants are still insane to make some progress threw the game and its ability to check so much Pokémon offensively thanks to its speed and use of the right Tera types allow it to be a prime threat !
An official post will be done later this week.
The purpose of that post is to give some news to our playerbase but also a place where they could share their thoughts on those three Pokémon.
Since joining the Underused, Ceruledge has always been a decent threat in the tier. However, it was lacking a true Ghost-type STAB but this problem is now solved thanks to Poltergeist ! Once settled up with Swords Dance, Ceruledge is able to break throught even defensive walls such as Alomomola with Poltergeist. It also allows it to punish way harder checks such as Skeledirge. With the right filler, Ceruledge can either punish threats such as Hydreigon and Tyranitar with Close Combat or eliminate faster or weakened threats thanks to Shadow Sneak. Bulk Up variants alongside Flash Fire can also shine in the right match-up making Ceruledge quite tough to deal with.
Quaquaval was already a great Pokémon in UU but with the release of the DLC : The Teal Mask, it got even better thanks to its newly access to Knock Off. It allows Quaquaval to dent or even bypass some of its old checks such as Basculegion-F, Slowking, Slowbro or Iron Leaves thanks to this new coverage. While it's true those Pokémon could lose vs some SD variants of Quaquaval, notably its Tera Ghost + Tera Blast set, this required to invest way more resources than now. Quaquaval can now opt for better Tera types such as Steel or Fire to resist Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Hurricane from Tornadus-T, or Water to increase even more the power of Aqua Step. Knock Off is also really valuable to make some progress threw the game by removing items such as Heavy-Duty Boots or Rocky Helmet from foes. All in all, Quaquaval is a premiere threat in the builder thanks to its Swords Dance variants which allows it snowball really effectively.
Tornadus-Therian has always been one of the best Pokémon in the tier and this hasn't changed at all. With the return of Knock Off in its arsenal, Tornadus-Therian can now run even more options than before while being able to be a good user of the Assault Vest thanks to Regenerator. Nasty Plot and Taunt variants are still insane to make some progress threw the game and its ability to check so much Pokémon offensively thanks to its speed and use of the right Tera types allow it to be a prime threat !
An official post will be done later this week.
The purpose of that post is to give some news to our playerbase but also a place where they could share their thoughts on those three Pokémon.
With the additions of new moves due to DLC release and a global evolution of the metagame, the council has decided to held a vote this next week-end : Ceruledge, Quaquaval and Tornadus-Therian are walking on eggshells.
Since joining the Underused, Ceruledge has always been a decent threat in the tier. However, it was lacking a true Ghost-type STAB but this problem is now solved thanks to Poltergeist ! Once settled up with Swords Dance, Ceruledge is able to break throught even defensive walls such as Alomomola with Poltergeist. It also allows it to punish way harder checks such as Skeledirge. With the right filler, Ceruledge can either punish threats such as Hydreigon and Tyranitar with Close Combat or eliminate faster or weakened threats thanks to Shadow Sneak. Bulk Up variants alongside Flash Fire can also shine in the right match-up making Ceruledge quite tough to deal with.
Quaquaval was already a great Pokémon in UU but with the release of the DLC : The Teal Mask, it got even better thanks to its newly access to Knock Off. It allows Quaquaval to dent or even bypass some of its old checks such as Basculegion-F, Slowking, Slowbro or Iron Leaves thanks to this new coverage. While it's true those Pokémon could lose vs some SD variants of Quaquaval, notably its Tera Ghost + Tera Blast set, this required to invest way more resources than now. Quaquaval can now opt for better Tera types such as Steel or Fire to resist Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Hurricane from Tornadus-T, or Water to increase even more the power of Aqua Step. Knock Off is also really valuable to make some progress threw the game by removing items such as Heavy-Duty Boots or Rocky Helmet from foes. All in all, Quaquaval is a premiere threat in the builder thanks to its Swords Dance variants which allows it snowball really effectively.
Tornadus-Therian has always been one of the best Pokémon in the tier and this hasn't changed at all. With the return of Knock Off in its arsenal, Tornadus-Therian can now run even more options than before while being able to be a good user of the Assault Vest thanks to Regenerator. Nasty Plot and Taunt variants are still insane to make some progress threw the game and its ability to check so much Pokémon offensively thanks to its speed and use of the right Tera types allow it to be a prime threat !
An official post will be done later this week.
The purpose of that post is to give some news to our playerbase but also a place where they could share their thoughts on those three Pokémon.
Tornadus-T was already kinda a bit busted for the tier without knock off as its longevity/power/speed tier was already a tad meta warping pre dlc with how fast it was and how stupidly easy it could make progress but with knock it definitely is too much for the tier, as anything that could wall nasty plot sets is moot if you can just remove the item that allows a pokemon to answer it. Even if you don't think its broken personally, its definitely too restricting for bulky teams to deal with.
Quaquaval was already a dominant force but knock off allows it to bypass all its old checks and counters too easily, probably should go as well was Quaquaval's old answers don't beat it anymore and now it has no real answers
As for Ceruledge, poltergeist is strong, but SD/Bulk Up sets limiting it to one coverage move other than its stabs is pretty significant still, i'm not as sure about it being broken.
Last edited:
I think Ursaluna is just as unhealthy as those three mons under inspection, even if it doesn't clean sweep entire teams like duck and Ceruledge. Tornadus-T seems fine with Knock, just a very good glue mon in the tier that's not that abrasive or out of control.
I'd probably ban Ceruledge, Quaquaval, and Ursaluna to try to stabilize the tier a bit before we get omega drops in October, then unban them all again as well as unban H-Lilligant and Hands when we get the drops since it'll be a whole new meta, then reassess again after a bit and see what action has to be taken.
I'd probably ban Ceruledge, Quaquaval, and Ursaluna to try to stabilize the tier a bit before we get omega drops in October, then unban them all again as well as unban H-Lilligant and Hands when we get the drops since it'll be a whole new meta, then reassess again after a bit and see what action has to be taken.
Ah yes, I can't wait to play with Iron Hands again for a week, will be fun.
This mon is definitely annoying to play against. Polt nukes a lot of mons and having access to weak armor for easy speed boosts or flash fire for skeledirges means you are probably picking up a KO with this thing regardless. I'm not entirely sold on it being super broken yet though as I do feel like there is a few ways to pivot around it. Maybe after drops we put it to a suspect test and see how bad it really is.
This mon feels really unfun to play against right now in my opinion. Tera ghost can easily takeover games, and now with the option of knock off it can even take over games without needing tera. I have been using a lot of chesnaught in this current meta which should be one of the strongest checks to quaq unless its running brave bird, but at that point at least it is killing itself against my tanks (i would mention acrobatics but this has seemed to fall off from what I have seen). The versatility gives our checks/counters a hard time to truly check it as it is a guessing game of tera brought too far imo. I'd like to see it quick banned as much as I would hate to lose a spinner.
Knock is an extremely nice QoL, but I don't think the changes has pushed it over the edge. Counters in things like bellibolt got buffed with accessibility to toxic, our steels can nicely cover the options it wants to do, wish passing is a pretty big part of the meta, and hazard stacking is still going to be as strong as ever with or without it. I feel like I have enough counterplay to properly handle this mon on my teams without worrying too much on what it will do. Nasty plot sets honestly might be the most threatening thing for this mon rn, but with offensive threats like weavile being relevant again, I'm not sure how long that will last either.
I agree with a lot of your takes friend but this one is not it. I agree luna is really strong once it gets in and you kinda have to pick once it enters the field. It makes trick room more viable and with the likely drop of conkeldurr the playstyle will only get stronger. But, banning just to unban everying in a week and a half is just definitely not the move. I dont think we need a hands vote for a 3rd time where we already banned it twice and idt it is likely we are getting anything to help face it with drops. Lilligant I could see, but I think its better to let the drops happen so we can have a bigger plate to vote on rather than having our council run around with ban, unban, ban.
TLDR / Conclusion: Ban quaq, suspect ceruledge, torn is fine (but if you want suspect it idc), keep trick room on future radar once conk drops, vote on brokens / lilligant retest depending on how drops go.
Short thoughts:
Tornadus-T is definitely not broken, especially with mons like weavile and belli as others mantioned becoming a bit better. torns end up knocking each other off a lot of games and with rocks up it's not hard to pressure at all. Great mon still, of course.
Ceruledge is broken to me, I think I would vote ban if it were tested publicly. I think it's way too hard to play around since polt is such a strong move and ghost resists are famously rare, and weak armor means you have to be extremely careful how you decide to chip it, especially if its running sash or smth, which becomes a very good option on it thanks to bitter blade (broken move). Counter play is too specific, and you lose so fast without it so ban.
Quaq is very very good, personally undecided tho since I havent used it myself unlike the other two.
Tornadus-T is definitely not broken, especially with mons like weavile and belli as others mantioned becoming a bit better. torns end up knocking each other off a lot of games and with rocks up it's not hard to pressure at all. Great mon still, of course.
Ceruledge is broken to me, I think I would vote ban if it were tested publicly. I think it's way too hard to play around since polt is such a strong move and ghost resists are famously rare, and weak armor means you have to be extremely careful how you decide to chip it, especially if its running sash or smth, which becomes a very good option on it thanks to bitter blade (broken move). Counter play is too specific, and you lose so fast without it so ban.
Quaq is very very good, personally undecided tho since I havent used it myself unlike the other two.
I'm not really sure where I stand on ceruledge, it's very strong and snowballs pretty easily, but I've seen it mostly on this team:
Or similar structures, generally feels much more manageable outside of this 6 although taunt bu can be dumb. Would be interested to see it without quaq, but I'm also not 100% sold on quaq being broken, probably at least one should go but I'm OK with it being either of both of them.
Since bfm mentioned ursaluna I wanted to add to it a bit, I honestly think this will be a uu mon eventually but I feel we're lacking a facade switch in that doesn't get folded by headlong rush, and bu is a bit too punishing if you go to the wrong mon expecting it to be flame orb. It's longevity issues feel less relevant with alomomola getting access to flip turn. Mola gets so many free clicks in a game unless you're using like ho and if you ever let it flip turn on a mon that's slower than ursaluna you pretty much have to pick one. There are ways to punish this combination in the builder but imo it's just really oppressive and bad for the tier.
Or similar structures, generally feels much more manageable outside of this 6 although taunt bu can be dumb. Would be interested to see it without quaq, but I'm also not 100% sold on quaq being broken, probably at least one should go but I'm OK with it being either of both of them.
Since bfm mentioned ursaluna I wanted to add to it a bit, I honestly think this will be a uu mon eventually but I feel we're lacking a facade switch in that doesn't get folded by headlong rush, and bu is a bit too punishing if you go to the wrong mon expecting it to be flame orb. It's longevity issues feel less relevant with alomomola getting access to flip turn. Mola gets so many free clicks in a game unless you're using like ho and if you ever let it flip turn on a mon that's slower than ursaluna you pretty much have to pick one. There are ways to punish this combination in the builder but imo it's just really oppressive and bad for the tier.
Last edited:
To be honest, I don't think any of these 3 are healthy. And I could see all 3 going, even if torn barely gets banned.
Also most Tornadus-T run boots anyway so as long as your tornadus-t does not get knocked you are fine typically.
Offensive counterplay isn't the issue with torn-t though, its that it shits all over bulky teams while having obnoxious longevity itself. Bulky mons really struggle to deal with it apart from bellibolt who is a B rank pokemon that isn't always optimal to slap on a team.
Frankly I think there is a good chance all 3 go, as all of them are varying degrees of unhealthy.
Quaquaval and Ceruledge are probably busted don't get me wrong, but I don't think tornadus-t is healthy either, even if we have better offensive counterplay since other than bellibolt, fat teams don't have a whole lot of reliable ways to deal with it as well
I’ve been on the Quaq band wagon since the mon first dropped to the tier. With access to tera, Tera blast, moxie, easy speed boosting, and now knock, it’s just a stupid and simply unhealthy Pokémon that provides nothing other than a nightmare in the builder. I think this is a no brainer ban.
Torn is stupid but it’s much more of a suspect than it is a quick ban. Knock gives it an additional annoyance but it’s dominant set has always been Nasty Plot.
Ceru frankly I haven’t seen much of so I’m indifferent on this.
And Ursaluna should for sure be on this list. Whether it’s banned or not, I don’t know how it evaded inspection.
Torn is stupid but it’s much more of a suspect than it is a quick ban. Knock gives it an additional annoyance but it’s dominant set has always been Nasty Plot.
Ceru frankly I haven’t seen much of so I’m indifferent on this.
And Ursaluna should for sure be on this list. Whether it’s banned or not, I don’t know how it evaded inspection.
ursaluna broken? i find it often times just gets a kill and dies (if at all)... if that is enough to be broken then idk i would expect it to get more value.... 90% of time on screens u can predict it coming in... im sure ur not letting espeon just be like screen -> screen -> yawn or smth ... like its taking rocks, its taking burn, its taking whatever attack ur throwing at it... its not iron hands lvl of bulk esp without lefties and having some expolitable weaknesses, its a A- mon in my opinion and it isnt even suspect worthy... id rather suspect torn-t or quav first before ursaluna at all
Torn-t is prob the most suspect worthy, with its many sets and NP having taunt or Knock off just being able to beat any target it wants is rough, regen makes it so its very hard to trade vs a NP torn-t as it can just get the health back... and tera making counterplay such as scarf zapdos-g, torn-t itself, scarf basculegion, and more just not work. Taunt also several forms of counterplya not work... like u want to encore it with scream tail? tough luck ur now giving it a free NP. Pivot out with slowking? nah. toxic from quagsire? in your dreams.
Torn-t is prob the most suspect worthy, with its many sets and NP having taunt or Knock off just being able to beat any target it wants is rough, regen makes it so its very hard to trade vs a NP torn-t as it can just get the health back... and tera making counterplay such as scarf zapdos-g, torn-t itself, scarf basculegion, and more just not work. Taunt also several forms of counterplya not work... like u want to encore it with scream tail? tough luck ur now giving it a free NP. Pivot out with slowking? nah. toxic from quagsire? in your dreams.
Very surprised to see not on here given it places major constraints in builder and is probably one of the main reasons why defensive teams have a hard time working at all in this current meta. I get the whole "more of an on-paper threat than it is in practice" ordeal but I believe it's current existence in the tier is a negative presence besides making semi-room and TR somewhat viable.
has 2 "real checks" that doesn't involve outoffensing it in and and one of those just gets folded to Brave Bird barring tera and hoping quav puts itself in range of priority which is not exactly uncommon from what I have seen and the other is kind of setup fodder long term if SD Quav. A lot of it's pre-dlc checks like the Basculegion forms and the Slow family now completly folds to knock off without tera. What I'm saying is Quaquaval effectively has gone from snowball mon that has some legitimate checks to gets to choose what checks it even more now. This thing should be gone by the end of the week.
is really an HO staple exclusive but it is pretty dumb from what I can tell but it's pretty limited on what kind of teams it fits on which Liz briefly touched upon. But on non-HO it could probably fit as a pivot punish since it actually resists u-turn but I haven't found a non HO comp for it to really click. Ceru has this weird constraint of not rlly wanting teammates to run Knock if it wants to spam Poltergeist so it's an interesting trade-off in teambuilding. I've already seen booster mons pop up more and item-less mons such as 
I'm not sure if it's really broken atm.
NP Torn is still pretty good and the utility sets are cool too. It gaining knock just makes it more annoying to face but if there was a reason to ban it it's probably NP Sets since it gets to pick and choose what beats it most days and a dominant speed tier. It's only held back by hoping it's STAB misses and regen means it can come back and try again later.
TLDR: Quickban Quavo, maybe QB Torn (I could live with a DNB ig), Ceru prob DNB, and vote on Ursa as well.
Side note: if any were to get suspected, you'd have to make the test last 1 week instead of 2 realistically so I highly doubt a suspect would happen with mass dlc drops coming so soon.
Edit (9/23): On second thought, Ceru forces ridiculous lose-lose situations against HO comps since the tier doesn't exactly have great defoggers, it can come in on a spin attempt with sash intact on shit not named
and either grant itself a free turn of setup or threaten a revenge kill and potentially gain most of its health back. This is especially notable given is probably the spinner of choice on most comps as Donphan is too much of a momentum sink for several teams. I've had several games on ladder where I basically had autowins or forced major progress off of this alone. This thing should be banned
not on here given it places major constraints in builder and is probably one of the main reasons why defensive teams have a hard time working at all in this current meta. I get the whole "more of an on-paper threat than it is in practice" ordeal but I believe it's current existence in the tier is a negative presence besides making semi-room and TR somewhat viable. has 2 "real checks" that doesn't involve outoffensing it in and and one of those just gets folded to Brave Bird barring tera and hoping quav puts itself in range of priority which is not exactly uncommon from what I have seen and the other is kind of setup fodder long term if SD Quav. A lot of it's pre-dlc checks like the Basculegion forms and the Slow family now completly folds to knock off without tera. What I'm saying is Quaquaval effectively has gone from snowball mon that has some legitimate checks to gets to choose what checks it even more now. This thing should be gone by the end of the week. is really an HO staple exclusive but it is pretty dumb from what I can tell but it's pretty limited on what kind of teams it fits on which Liz briefly touched upon. But on non-HO it could probably fit as a pivot punish since it actually resists u-turn but I haven't found a non HO comp for it to really click. Ceru has this weird constraint of not rlly wanting teammates to run Knock if it wants to spam Poltergeist so it's an interesting trade-off in teambuilding. I've already seen booster mons pop up more and item-less mons such as I'm not sure if it's really broken atm. NP Torn is still pretty good and the utility sets are cool too. It gaining knock just makes it more annoying to face but if there was a reason to ban it it's probably NP Sets since it gets to pick and choose what beats it most days and a dominant speed tier. It's only held back by hoping it's STAB misses and regen means it can come back and try again later.TLDR: Quickban Quavo, maybe QB Torn (I could live with a DNB ig), Ceru prob DNB, and vote on Ursa as well.
Side note: if any were to get suspected, you'd have to make the test last 1 week instead of 2 realistically so I highly doubt a suspect would happen with mass dlc drops coming so soon.
Edit (9/23): On second thought, Ceru forces ridiculous lose-lose situations against HO comps since the tier doesn't exactly have great defoggers, it can come in on a spin attempt with sash intact on shit not named
and either grant itself a free turn of setup or threaten a revenge kill and potentially gain most of its health back. This is especially notable given is probably the spinner of choice on most comps as Donphan is too much of a momentum sink for several teams. I've had several games on ladder where I basically had autowins or forced major progress off of this alone. This thing should be banned
Last edited:
Quaquaval has been one of the most toxic presences in UU since it dropped. I cannot tell you how many 6-0s I've seen in this tier the past couple of months (in high level tournament play nonetheless) because of this mon getting to pick and choose what teams get absolutely rolled by it thanks to the stupidity of Aqua Step + Moxie + potential Tera typings/Tera Blast sets. I think the previous reasoning for keeping it in the tier is pretty cope (It isn't always gonna have a good matchup, Tera Blast is a resource, copeeee that thing is so rewarding its not even funny) but now none of that matters, at all. Knock Off invalidates Tera Ghost counterplay and gives it an option to ALWAYS force some sort of progress. It's low pool of options to actually check it has decreased even more and like the above posts have highlighted, this duck STILL has options to brute force through those "checks". There is currently no reliable way to check this mon now and I'm glad that this tier won't have to deal with its uncompetitive playstyle.
Now u can use knock with this gas
- Status