SV UU Metagame Discussion

[Moutemoute]

I read somewhere in twitter that with the huge affluence of fire types in the tier, they think Scizor could drop to RN lol, as if that's gonna happen... if anything he may lose some steam but it will rise back up, he's Scizor after all.

I trully don't think this will happen, Scizor is still extremely potent with Bullet Punch. I think SD Tera Fire Scizor with Thief is actually quite great, HDB variants with 4 attacks are also great imo since Scizor has a great coverage on its own.

 

[Copland]

Yo, not usually one to post but I've played a lot of UU since the start, and I've got some thoughts on some neat mons in the current metagame.

--
This mon is really cool. It's helpful to have something that can switch into and force out , especially on balance builds. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Boots w/ Rocks + 3 attacks, especially since it opens up a moveslot on mons like or . Noticeably weaker than Banded, but you can still run Adamant and have moderately strong Extremespeeds to pick off weakened offensive threats. Tera could be something defensive (I've tested Flying), or you could do an offensive tera like Rock, Fire, or Normal.

--
Speaking of Gastro, this mon still has a nice place in the meta. If you can fit Rocks elsewhere (Boots Arcanine!), this mon sets up Spikes really well. Super customizable EVs, abilities, items, and Tera types, too. I've been running phys def for EQs, , and (once Tera'd), but you could really do any spread depending on what your team needs. SpDef Covert Cloak with Clear Smog can bail you out of a emergency. Sticky Hold is nice if running Boots or Helmet, but I love Storm Drain for the Water Immunity vs and . The old meta's Tera Poison still works for the Toxic immunity and boosted Sludge Bombs, but since I've been running Phys Def, I've experimented with Tera Ghost to spin-block and on builds without a Ghost Type. Such a good balance glue, if passive and matchup-dependent at times.

--
Another mon that works great on hazard stack balance, which I feel is the best way to build balance right now. Don't get me wrong, it can be super passive, and doesn't love the match-up into , but if you want to absolutely stuff physical attackers, Houndstone is the best boy for the job. (Banded Gapdos only 4HKOs with Brave Bird.) Its movepool is small, but there are some gems in there that allow for some set variety. I've been running Body Press/Hex/Wisp/Roar, but you can absolutely slot in Protect, Rest, or (with a sneaky item) Trick. Body Press deters from dropping a Draco on you, Wisp chips and neuters physical threats, and Roar can phase sweepers and rack up hazard damage. Hex might seem odd over Night Shade, but it does better damage than Night Shade vs. high HP targets with bad SpDef, notably 3HKO-ing offensive Donphan and 2HKO-ing any Slowbro/King variation after a Wisp. The main idea is just to deny hazard removal as long as possible, as people have been running far more Spinners than Defoggers since the tier shift. And as much as it dislikes Skeledirge, Houndstone actually forms a nice pair with it on balance, since not much breaks Phys Def Doggie and SpDef Dirge. Plus, after Tera on either mon, you maintain a spin-blocker and a Normal/Fighting immunity.

Rapid Fire Round -- Screens are maybe busted; is scary but ok for now (?); is fantastic with great set variety; is match-up fishy and gross; forms a great Regen-core with AV and/or . Also, where are and these days?

I'll try to be more concise in the future–just got a lot of thoughts pent up!

 

[TheTraininator]

You're right, I forgot when I made the post if it needed to be the user or the target that was grounded LOL

Just for general reference for anyone who is confused about terrain interactions:

- Damage multipliers of the terrain require the attacking Pokémon to be grounded.
- Defensive effects of the terrain, (damage reduction, priority blocking, status immunity, etc), require the defending Pokémon to be grounded.
- The healing effects of grassy terrain are applied to all grounded Pokémon.
- Grassy Glide, Expanding Force, and Terrain Pulse require the user to be grounded to be influenced by terrain.
______________________________________________

- All abilities that activate in terrain trigger regardless of if the user is grounded. (Think of Iron Jugulis’ Quark Drive, for example.)
- Seeds activate regardless of if the holder is grounded.
- Most other moves not already listed that either destroy terrain or have their abilities or effects influenced by terrain, (including Misty Explosion), destroy it/are influenced by it regardless of whether the attacker or defender is grounded.
______________________________________________

- Rising Voltage is the one weird exception to that; it increases in damage in e-terrain if the DEFENDING POKÉMON is grounded, but does not care if the user is grounded. The move’s text and animation reflect this.

 

[Pabloaram]

- Rising Voltage is the one weird exception to that; it increases in damage in e-terrain if the DEFENDING POKÉMON is grounded, but does not care if the user is grounded. The move’s text and animation reflect this.

There is a unique interaction when a Flying- mon use Roost and get hit by Rising Voltage he takes the same ammount on damage (in gen 7 terrain boost was 50% instead of 30% in gen 8/9) bc he was considered grounded in the turn he roost

 

[Moutemoute]

Agility Basculegion-F

Basculegion-F @ Wise Glasses / Spell Tag / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Surf
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam

I have not seen a lot of people talk about Basculegion-F even tho it's actually quite decent. Have played some games today using a HO with this Pokémon alongside Battle Bond Greninja and I think they're pairing well with each other since they tend to have common checks so they can weaken each others checks on the long run. Basculegion-F hits quite hard thanks to Adaptability and Ice Beam provides enough coverage to hit foes such as Hydreigon or Cyclizar. It does have a decent bulk thanks to its good HPs so yeah cool Pokémon !

LO Protect Battle Bond Greninja

Greninja-Bond @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Ghost / Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect / Water Shuriken / Tera Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot

Not gonna lie, I think Battle Bond Greninja is better than Protean variants, especially on really offensive archetypes. I've been a huge fan of this Pokémon since it's available on Showdown! and I'm still a fan. Recently, I've been trying new things, like Tera Ghost in order to be immune to things such as Mach Punch or Extreme Speed. I feel like Protect is pretty valuable on the ladder since people tend to cope on First Impression Lokix (bruh), it's also decent to scout a potential Tera from your opponent which allows you to click the right move the next turn. Once Battle Bond has been activated, Greninja is able to outspeed almost anything except Choice Scarf Meowscarada and induces great damage especially late game when things tend to be weakened. I've seen a lot of people using this kind of variants of Greninja and I think it's pretty legit atm thanks to its speed tier and coverage.

 

[Negative Charge]

Decidueye-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Scrappy
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Triple Arrows
- Knock Off
- Defog
- Roost

Big fan of this set. Decidueye-H has a more desirable typing compared to the original in the current meta because it resists/is neutral to Meowscarada's stabs and also resists Stone Axe from Kleavor. Also the best possible switch into Wo-Chien, though I have not seen it since the tier shift. Triple arrows lets you duel fat stuff and usually win. This packs a lot of role compression into a set that is not completely passive.

 

[SturdyShedinja]

​

I wanted to ramble a bit about a pokemon that was somewhat controversial early on, partially because I’m curious what other people’s thoughts are on it now that the metagame has settled somewhat and partially because I’m not entirely sure what my own opinion is of it yet. Hydreigon manages to both have clear and defined flaws while still being on of the most terrifying pokemon to account for, both in the builder and in battle.

The Primary Set

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor/Subsitute/Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon

Hydreigon’s best set isn’t anything earth shattering, but it’s extremely effective. The lack of good bulky fairies and special sponges makes a +2 hydreigon very difficult to handle defensively. Dark pulse and flash cannon have good coverage into most of the metagame. Draco meteor is hydreigon’s strongest hit against neutral targets, which can be useful to break through walls or pick off an offensive threat. Substitute can abuse the switches hydreigon forces while also punishing greedy dirge and quag that try to status it. Flamethrower is usually less consistent than the other options, but the strong hit on tink can be valuable. There are some other options that could be worth experimenting with, such as different Tera types like fire, poison, or ground or choiced sets, but this set is by far the most dangerous. However, what makes it so threatening isn’t just its ability to rip through most defensive cores, but also how easily it finds turns to set up.

Free Setup Before Tera

Set or choice lock dependent:

Tera 50/50

Free Setup After Tera

Set or choice lock dependent:

Note: These lists are pulled from all of the pokemon who are uu by usage, regardless of viability. It’s very likely that I forgot something or I could be exaggerating some matchups.

Almost every team has at least one, if not two or three pokemon that give hydreigon free turns to set up. It’s nearly impossible to stop it from setting up at least once, and its great defensive typing and synergy with Tera steel makes it excellent at abusing choice locks or passive defensive pokemon. However, the most concerning category is the Tera 50/50, which is almost always in the hydreigon user’s favor and can be game winning in some scenarios. It’s not unlikely for hydreigon to go two for one, forcing a sac to bring in a revenge killer only to Tera and remove it too.

However, hydreigon is not without its flaws. Scream tail and tinkaton can both eat a couple of hits and punish it with encore, although neither are good long term answers. For hardcore stall teams, blissey is as unbreakable as ever for special attackers. On the offensive end, faster fighting types can remove it regardless of if it Tera’s. Offensive teams can also try to limit its switchins and force the Tera early. Hydreigon’s mediocre speed tier leaves it open to revenge killing once it no longer has Tera to fall back on. It excels most against balanced an BO teams that can give it the free turns it needs while having limited counterplay, but against teams that are too offensive or defensive, hydreigon can struggle to find chances to make progress.

Overall, my first impression was that it would be a strong but balanced option, but after playing the early meta it seemed banworthy. However, as time has passed, I find it a bit more manageable to play around and build for. I wouldn’t oppose a suspect at some point, but I’m unsure if I would vote to ban it.

Tl;dr Hydreigon is very effective at finding the free turns it needs to setup due to its excellent defensive typing, and Tera guessing games allow it to circumvent traditional counterplay. However, its mediocre speed tier still holds it back to some degree. I wouldn’t mind a suspect, but I don’t know if it’s banworthy.

 

[Nauts]

Okay, so, I want to talk about Skeledirge for a bit. At first this mon felt super overwhelming to play against because everyone was running silly new toy offense, which Skeledirge just roadblocked completely. But recently I feel like building has been optimized a fair bit against it, there are most certainly plenty of ways to pressure Skeledirge and even punish teams who overrely on it to handle set up sweepers. Making it, in my opinion, a great addition to the tier as a whole, being A Rank or even S Rank material.

So first and foremost, Skeledirge is great because of how splashable it is, fitting on nearly any playstyle that isn't hardcore Hyper Offense, and from there you can choose to go either PhysDef or SpDef making it even more versatile as a Pokémon that can hold your team together while being hella threatening on its own.

With that said, while Skeledirge excels at stopping a lot of set up sweepers, it can struggle against good momentum cores by itself since it can't punish VoltTurn, inviting in a lot of strong wallbreakers and nasty matchups if you're not careful with it. Skeledirge is also afraid of Knock Off, Poison/Toxic status and any kind of chip in general that will severely hurt its ability to actually wall threats.

Now, Skeledirge is without a doubt a great Tera user, but in this case, it's better saved for the late game when you're sure you can win with Torch Song shenanigans. Terastalizing Skeledirge during the early or mid game, while good in some circumstances, can definitely come back to bite you, as the opponent is more likely to have tools to deal with Dirge's new set of weaknesses and resistances. For example, the popular Tera Fairy Skeledirge is left susceptible to Scizor, Bisharp, strong Fire and Poison Types and it can no longer spinblock.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that Skeledirge is undoubtedly an amazing Pokémon with a lot of great traits but also some key weaknesses that promote immediate power and good offensive momentum. (I can still see Skeledirge becoming potentially problematic in the future though, but if anything I personally think it would warrant a suspect rather than a QB)

 

[udongirl]

Need to be banned. I thought 110 atk isnt enough to destroy the entire of team but stab knock is simply powerful for uu and boots/leftovers removal is too hard for all counters.

Only some frail mons (electric-flying) can resist 125 atk 120 power stabs. it also has u-turn and decent bulk and typing. This meta has great pivots like slowking so you can abuse this mon easily. Its too much for this tier.

This mon is still scary. Powerful stabs has few counters and its typing walls skeledirge hard. One of the reasons why skeledirge cant be broken.

Dirge abuser 2. Its very powerful but it depends heavily on pivot so it may be healthy if meow goes?

This mon struggles vs broken meow and arcanine. It will stay in UU unless OU takes it.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Need to be banned. I thought 110 atk isnt enough to destroy the entire of team but stab knock is simply powerful for uu and boots/leftovers removal is too hard for all counters.

Only some frail mons (electric-flying) can resist 125 atk 120 power stabs. it also has u-turn and decent bulk and typing. This meta has great pivots like slowking so you can abuse this mon easily. Its too much for this tier.

This mon is still scary. Powerful stabs has few counters and its typing walls skeledirge hard. One of the reasons why skeledirge cant be broken.

Dirge abuser 2. Its very powerful but it depends heavily on pivot so it may be healthy if meow goes?

This mon struggles vs broken meow and arcanine. It will stay in UU unless OU takes it.

The Meowscarada part in particular I totally agree with. I think the Choice Band sets are really broken because of the incredible speed tier which outspeeds Cycle, Greninja and Tornadus which are frequently the fastest or second fastest mon on teams.

Scarfers aren’t super common anymore, they often just fail to ever progress vs our super common fat mons.

defensively speaking, there’s almost nothing reliable into CB Meow - Salamence and Decidueye fighting get nuked by Play Rough, Tinkaton and to a lesser extent Overqwil are extremely Leftovers reliant and will get very quickly chipped without it, Muk is a worse version of Overqwil wrt Meow matchup. Glowbro kind of works but has to use up tera and still gets nuked by Tera Grass Flower Trick if it’s not grass resistant.

I think the speed and ability to chip defensive mons is already super well established and frankly more than enough to ban already.

But what’s not as often discussed is it’s powerful Uturn and it’s ability to get an advantage over defensive teras. Previously borderline broken Pokémon, like Pawmot a few months ago, were also very difficult to wall but once a defensive Pokémon came in, like Slowbro, the Slowbro could fairly safely tera and then hard check Pawmot for the rest of the game. If Pawmot wanted to break through, at the very least it would have to Tera Electric to break Tera Fairy Slowbro and still, Tera Ground Slowbro would have been a harder stop.

Meow’s access to Uturn changes all this - Skeledirge and Quagsire, two very common defensive mons, obviously have to tera vs CB Meow lest they risk instant death. But first of all, even after they tera, they don’t become good switch ins - Quagsire gets 2HKO by a stab move after eating CB protean Uturn and Skeledirge Fairy gets straight up 2 tapped by Flower Trick.

Second, it’s entirely possible that the Meow user simply predicts and uses Uturn, thus making the defensive user expend their tera for very little gain.

Out of all our broken mons so far - Iron Hands and Liligant now, Hydreigon, Bax and Espathra before, none of them really abused Uturn as much as Meow. The ability to abuse Uturn to fake out defensive Teras is just another reason to ban Meow, in addition to its already incredible speed and ability to make progress vs it’s so called checks and counters.

 

[TheReal274]

I don't have much more to add after the excellent posts by udongirl and pif, but I would also like to voice my desire on tiering action against Meowscarada. I was surprised it got a unanimous DNB vote from the council on the most recent slate, but I am happy that it was at least voted on. I hope this mon remains on the radar. The combination of Dark / Grass / Fairy stab is very difficult to wall, and Knock / Flower Trick both have really excellent secondary effects that make them extremely spammable. Banded stab uturn is also very very easy to click, and guarantees free progress in a similar way to its banded stab knock off. This mon overwhelms common balance cores but it also matches up incredibly well into offense.

I think this mon is more broken than Sandy Shocks was at the time of its suspect, and they are obviously very different mons, but one of the main complaints about Shocks at the time was its ability to volt switch out on pretty much anything as it was able to threaten every ground in the tier. Meowscarada can similarly punish U-turn counterplay with Knock Off. If you switch in your rocky helmet mon to chip meowscarada on the expected U-turn, it can click the equally spammable Knock Off for a great trade. Flame Body Talonflame similarly fears switching in because it hates losing its boots. The comparison is, for me, further compounded by both mons' ability to set up Spikes as they force out huge portions of the tier, but Meowscarada is faster, has stab Knock, and has an additional nuke in Flower Trick.

 

[Deathbringer7]

Meowscarada is an interesting case. Just when HOME dropped , I believed the very large influx of flying types would help keep this thing in check and it wouldn't be a standout mon.
Oh how wrong I was.
This pokemon has absolutely no long term counterplay. The set that breaks it is undoubtedly the CB set with Play Rough, nailing would be switchins like Hydreigon , Salamence, H-Decky and completely shattering them. The thing that really makes it unstoppable , as pif and udongirl stated in their excellent posts above, is the combination of U Turn and Knock Off off of it's tremendous speed tier, notably outspeeding Greninja, Torn-T and Cyclizar, which are already th speedsters of the tier. It's Knock Off is incredibly free, guaranteed to make progress thanks to the loss of item which makes dealing with it as well as it's teammates over subsequent turns completely impossible. Taking the Knock is just not feasible, something like Tink which is an ok switch at best completely falls apart without it's leftovers. After the Knock, it doesn't even need to click Flower Trick to bring down the opposing team , it can keep clicking CB U Turn on whatever you can call a switch and inevitably wears it down to the point where a cleaner like Scarf Hydreigon can freely click buttons (Meow's great speed can make it a cleaner in its own right). Thundy + Meow is a braindead Volt Turn core, which preys on defensive cores with mons like Wo/Torn/Dirge/Tink/Quag/Gastro etc. When you notice that everything except maybe Quag and Gastro (which are trashed by FTrick anyway) absolutely despise Knock. Thundy with Meow is simply an unstoppable volt turn vortex.
Yeah this mon is on a one way trip to BL Hell.

In a nutshell : Knock + U Turn spam brings down an already limited pool of answers with ease, making stopping a repeated Meow attack impossible. It's far too straining on Balance and Bulky Offense structures to be a healthy presence in the tier.


On another note, Gapdos should really be more talked about regarding it's blantant brokenness. There's simply no switchin to CB, especially exacerbated by FSight + Chilly Recep Slowking, which provides incredibly free entry to an unstoppable breaker. I encourage people to try scarf, it's an awesome cleaner as Brave Bird racks up hilarious numbers, and it can use the offensive pressure it exerts and act as a pivot in the mid game, well supported by Chilly Recep Slowking. Tera Electric allows to stay in on Torn and just nuke it, as well protecting it vs Sciz BP, further limiting the already miniscule amount of "counterplay" to this thing.

In a nutshell: No Band Gapdos switchins exist and it can crush offense with Scarf. No reasonable counterplay across playstyles.

 

[Lizzie]

I think the quickban of hisuian lilligant was frankly ridiculous. Even if I were to accept the reasons given for it being broken, I think the acknowledged defensive counterplay in its ban post as well as the fact that it really doesn't get that many opportunities to set up due its poor bulk mean it was nowhere near quickban worthy.

 

[Bice]

I think the quickban of hisuian lilligant was frankly ridiculous. Even if I were to accept the reasons given for it being broken, I think the acknowledged defensive counterplay in its ban post as well as the fact that it really doesn't get that many opportunities to set up due its poor bulk mean it was nowhere near quickban worthy.

While I do think Hisui Lilligant needed to go, I do believe there are more pressing Pokemon at the moment (such as Meowscarada and Hydreigon) that needed to go first. I do hope council gives those two especially priority.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I think the quickban of hisuian lilligant was frankly ridiculous. Even if I were to accept the reasons given for it being broken, I think the acknowledged defensive counterplay in its ban post as well as the fact that it really doesn't get that many opportunities to set up due its poor bulk mean it was nowhere near quickban worthy.

I was meaning to make a post about this, but Liz knows how to sum it up much better. I tried for a long time to make a good H-Lilli team and it was quite honestly difficult to make it work, since no matter what you had to choose if you wanted to lose to either Dirge or Mence or Poison Quag. It wasn't a bad pokemon by any means, but a suspect would have been far more appropriate. I thought for sure Hydreigon was more pressing than H-Lilli, tho I don't think that's necessarily QB worthy either, but I can at least accept the difficulty it givess you in the builder and the actual immense practicality/usefulness it has on a variety of different builds and playstyles, whereas H-Lilli you really needed to build a specific structure to make it work. Worst of all the UU TL is Lily and we banned Lilligant, really terrible move. Please quick-unban it immediately.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I get the feeling that UUWC will result in a few more bans depending on how well some pokemon do and how broken some prove to be, and my predictions for the ones that will dominate UUWC in some very BS and possibly broken ways are:

Galarian Moltres, Meow, and Dirge I think will be the mons that get looked into after UUWC and the ones I expect to absolutely destroy the tournament.

I don't want the council to take their eyes off goltres, as I definitely think its a very egregious MU fish.

And meow and dirge are just probably a bit too much anyway.

 

[TyCarter]

I suppose I'll offer my two cents on the H-Lilligant amongst other things, I understand why it got quickbanned and it was fair enough given how frustrating it can be to need to account for it in builder since it could just pick and choose what beat it. But yes it was very limited in terms of viable team-building structures it can truly thrive on which was HO and maybe Sun if ur into Leaf Guard builds which I thought had some cool applications. (Chlorophyll is super underwhelming tbh) Hustle is also not worth the accuracy drop with all due respect.

Onto the actual matters at hand:
Meowscarada. with CB is quite frankly pretty free as nothing really likes getting knocked or u-turned on throughout the match and hits ridiculously hard alongside a commanding speed tier that outspeeds everything relevant that isn't and naturally. Stuff like can soften it a bit with intim and you can get the jump on it with the FI users of the tier in and , or scarfers with the most notable ones in the tier currently being , and . I haven't even mentioned the fact that if Meow opts to run scarf, it can be a pretty good anti-offense/setup insurance to a degree. Play Rough should be borderline mandatory on choice meow sets to say the least. Sucker probably has room for experimentation but kinda tough to fit. This should be looked into more at the very least.

ok yes fighting/flying stab is hard to switch in with. However, it suffers from some of the exact same issues another brave bird spamming flying type suffered pre-home. Base 100 speed limits it down to choice scarf most of the time and it wears itself down. The upside is that it can at least run sets like BU trailblaze thanks to its decent movepool and Thundurus Kick also provides some value in lowering it's switch-ins physical bulk and somewhat spammable in some cases. The dual typing does let it come in more often with choice sets at the very least even if it provides less defensive value.

another threat that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned in the voting slate since Battle Bond just lets Greninja snowball really hard and makes saccing more or less unviable. Specs hits a lot of the tier pretty hard and I think it does have pretty limited defensive counterplay on that front. Tera water also makes a lot of what would look like passable defensive answers like spdef or be fake answers.

this thing is fine and I don't really buy the hype on this thing at the moment. Yes Tera Blast can let Gmolt bypass some bad matchups and demon sets could do something but it feels like a massive opportunity cost at the moment and I feel most teams are more than equipped to handle it at the moment.

edit: I totally forgot gapdos also has defiant which means you can never lower its atk and can punish defog attempts pretty hard. I wouldn't be surprised if it got looked at more down the line

 

[udongirl]

I can say Galarian Zapdos is much stronger than Staraptor.
The main reason is its secondary stab. Fighting/Flying is much better combination than Normal/Flying because Fighting can hit rock and steel. Staraptor can learn close combat but we don't want to click cc because its not stabs and not boosted by reckless.
Additionally, close combat doesn't have recoil so it means you need to lure brave bird to exhaust gapdos.
And we should not forget stealth rock. No stealth rock weak is important for U-turn user. Staraptor couldn't click U-turn so much because it cannot come to the field so often.
Staraptor may have a bit more power but gapdos is better in most cases. Its stab combinations is impossible to stop and 100 speed is fast enough for 125 atk and 120 power stabs pokemon. It needs to go.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I can say Galarian Zapdos is much stronger than Staraptor.
The main reason is its secondary stab. Fighting/Flying is much better combination than Normal/Flying because Fighting can hit rock and steel. Staraptor can learn close combat but we don't want to click cc because its not stabs and not boosted by reckless.
Additionally, close combat doesn't have recoil so it means you need to lure brave bird to exhaust gapdos.
And we should not forget stealth rock. No stealth rock weak is important for U-turn user. Staraptor couldn't click U-turn so much because it cannot come to the field so often.
Staraptor may have a bit more power but gapdos is better in most cases. Its stab combinations is impossible to stop and 100 speed is fast enough for 125 atk and 120 power stabs pokemon. It needs to go.

I can tell you speedcreep makes one hell of a difference

 

[Deathbringer7]

I suppose I'll offer my two cents on the H-Lilligant amongst other things, I understand why it got quickbanned and it was fair enough given how frustrating it can be to need to account for it in builder since it could just pick and choose what beat it. But yes it was very limited in terms of viable team-building structures it can truly thrive on which was HO and maybe Sun if ur into Leaf Guard builds which I thought had some cool applications. (Chlorophyll is super underwhelming tbh) Hustle is also not worth the accuracy drop with all due respect.

Onto the actual matters at hand:
Meowscarada. with CB is quite frankly pretty free as nothing really likes getting knocked or u-turned on throughout the match and hits ridiculously hard alongside a commanding speed tier that outspeeds everything relevant that isn't and naturally. Stuff like can soften it a bit with intim and you can get the jump on it with the FI users of the tier in and , or scarfers with the most notable ones in the tier currently being , and . I haven't even mentioned the fact that if Meow opts to run scarf, it can be a pretty good anti-offense/setup insurance to a degree. Play Rough should be borderline mandatory on choice meow sets to say the least. Sucker probably has room for experimentation but kinda tough to fit. This should be looked into more at the very least.

ok yes fighting/flying stab is hard to switch in with. However it suffers from some of the exact same issues another brave bird spamming flying type suffered pre-home. Base 100 speed limits it down to choice scarf most of the time and it wears itself down. The upside is that it can at least run sets like BU trailblaze thanks to its decent movepool and Thundurus Kick also provides some value in lowering it's switch-ins physical bulk and somewhat spammable in sone cases. The dual typing does let it come in more often with choice sets at the very least even if it provides less defensive value.

another threat that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned in the voting slate since Battle Bond just lets Greninja snowball really hard and makes saccing more or less unviable. Specs hits a lot of the tier pretty hard and I think it does have pretty limited defensive counterplay on that front. Tera water also makes a lot of what would look like passable defensive answers like spdef or be fake answers.

this thing is fine and I don't really buy the hype on this thing at the moment. Yes Tera Blast can let Gmolt bypass some bad matchups and demon sets could do something but it feels like a massive opportunity cost at the moment and I feel most teams are more than equipped to handle it at the moment.

Imo Gapdos isn't as easy to wear down as Raptor thanks to a very crucial Stealth Rock neutrality that allows it to spam U turn more comfortably. And since Raptor didn't have STAB on CC, it was as incentivised to click BB a lot more for meaningful damage while Gapdos can easily pick between STABs. Another benefit of STAB CC is it's incredible synergy with FSight and we have a good FSight user in Slowking (Slowbro is also decent but it doesn't have Chilly Recep for a free pivot), Raptor's CC doesn't hit nearly as hard as Gapdos's. Also pre home Raptor struggled to hit the field since despite good pivot users like Sandy, it's SR weakness gave it limited opportunities to break with Band, while Gap doesn't have this issue (we also have better pivots now in Slowking and Thundy). I just think that the switchins are just way too limited for this to remain in the tier, Hippowdon is forced to switch if Gapdos spams Thunderous Kick and there's a whole host of stuff that just can't take the BB/CC combination. Revenge killing with Sciz is unreliable since it can tera electric to resist Bullet Punch.

 

[Jonbot]

How are you all finding the basculegions?

I don’t find either to be very good mostly due to their low speed and lack of power at times. Female is better than male but it always feels like they both lack raw power without specs or band but at the same time neither of their stabs feel particularly spamable. Again female fairs better in this regard as shadow ball + surf/hydro is better than just wave crash but the fact that a lot of really good Pokémon can switch into these stabs like meow, hydreigon and gren means that these sets do suffer. Female runs ice beam for that reason as it allows it to nuke 2/3 of these mons on the switch but it just makes basc F so much more prediction reliant and can end up putting the user on the back foot quickly.

Calcs to prove the point

Basc M
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 120-142 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 195-229 (66.5 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 159-187 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Basc F
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 147-173 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 180-212 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 177-209 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All of this wouldn’t be an issue if it had a better speed stat but base 78 is not good enough anymore and basc can’t run scarf due to lack of power and weakness to meow’s sucker punch. I’m not even gonna bother talking about swift swim after pelipper rose to ou. It just means that most mons can switch in to threaten it out, meaning that the basc user just loses all momentum that they had.

Overall, I think that both basc forms just feel so underwhelming despite their good attributes as their low speed means that they get revenge killed easily and they struggle to break mons due to their lack of power

 

[Copland]

How are you all finding the basculegions?

I don’t find either to be very good mostly due to their low speed and lack of power at times. Female is better than male but it always feels like they both lack raw power without specs or band but at the same time neither of their stabs feel particularly spamable. Again female fairs better in this regard as shadow ball + surf/hydro is better than just wave crash but the fact that a lot of really good Pokémon can switch into these stabs like meow, hydreigon and gren means that these sets do suffer. Female runs ice beam for that reason as it allows it to nuke 2/3 of these mons on the switch but it just makes basc F so much more prediction reliant and can end up putting the user on the back foot quickly.

Calcs to prove the point

Basc M
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 120-142 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 195-229 (66.5 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 159-187 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Basc F
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 147-173 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 180-212 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 177-209 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All of this wouldn’t be an issue if it had a better speed stat but base 78 is not good enough anymore and basc can’t run scarf due to lack of power and weakness to meow’s sucker punch. I’m not even gonna bother talking about swift swim after pelipper rose to ou. It just means that most mons can switch in to threaten it out, meaning that the basc user just loses all momentum that they had.

Overall, I think that both basc forms just feel so underwhelming despite their good attributes as their low speed means that they get revenge killed easily and they struggle to break mons due to their lack of power

I think you're misreading how effective Basc is. The best defensive mons in the tier do not want to switch into your stabs, especially in an era of fast Tink and extinct Wo-Chien. That leaves fake special walls like Cyclizar and offensive pressure as your best counterplay, and as your calcs show, even offensive mons that resist your stabs don't want to switch in. A Meowscarada at 40% is way easier to handle than a Meow at full. But what makes it especially good as a breaker is that it actually has the typing and bulk to enter the battle. Having a one-time check to boosted Quaquaval is really huge, for example.

Specs is a bit limiting for what this mon can do. In fact, I think its best set is the Wise Glasses 3 Attack + Agility set that Moutemoute posted earlier in the thread. Versus offense, you get one free turn and can clean easily late game, especially since the typing is immune to or resists most priority. Versus fatter teams, you won't need the Agility, but the ability to switch moves and Ice Beam a Cyclizar trying to pivot on your Shadow Ball is super clutch. Here's high-1500s replay of me leveraging Basc's typing to both spinblock Cyclizar and deter Gapdos's Close Combat, complete with a Tera checkmate at the end vs. the very annoying core of Skeledirge and Quagsire. Basculegion forces my opponent to Tera Fairy their Dirge, creating an opening for Banded Meow Flower Trick to clean up the game.

Replay

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1903835526

 

[HaxxLR]

I think you're misreading how effective Basc is. The best defensive mons in the tier do not want to switch into your stabs, especially in an era of fast Tink and extinct Wo-Chien. That leaves fake special walls like Cyclizar and offensive pressure as your best counterplay, and as your calcs show, even offensive mons that resist your stabs don't want to switch in. A Meowscarada at 40% is way easier to handle than a Meow at full. But what makes it especially good as a breaker is that it actually has the typing and bulk to enter the battle. Having a one-time check to boosted Quaquaval is really huge, for example.

Specs is a bit limiting for what this mon can do. In fact, I think its best set is the Wise Glasses 3 Attack + Agility set that Moutemoute posted earlier in the thread. Versus offense, you get one free turn and can clean easily late game, especially since the typing is immune to or resists most priority. Versus fatter teams, you won't need the Agility, but the ability to switch moves and Ice Beam a Cyclizar trying to pivot on your Shadow Ball is super clutch. Here's high-1500s replay of me leveraging Basc's typing to both spinblock Cyclizar and deter Gapdos's Close Combat, complete with a Tera checkmate at the end vs. the very annoying core of Skeledirge and Quagsire. Basculegion forces my opponent to Tera Fairy their Dirge, creating an opening for Banded Meow Flower Trick to clean up the game.

Replay

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1903835526

I agree with your post but I don't think the reply you chose illustrates well the potential of basculegion F, basically your opponent just sack his best basculegion counter play turn 9 and let their cyclizar take a draco meteor for nothing. All of that highly make the job of basculegion easier but at the same time tera fairy skeledirge illustrates well the lack of breaking power of a specsless basculegion who did only 41 at best with surf.

 

[Copland]

I agree with your post but I don't think the reply you chose illustrates well the potential of basculegion F, basically your opponent just sack his best basculegion counter play turn 9 and let their cyclizar take a draco meteor for nothing. All of that highly make the job of basculegion easier but at the same time tera fairy skeledirge illustrates well the lack of breaking power of a specsless basculegion who did only 41 at best with surf.

I see what you mean, but no mon exists in isolation, and that SpDef Tinkaton was still being 3hkod by Basculegion-F even if Basc had lost its Wise Glasses. Doing 41 without an item to a Tera Dirge is still good damage because you (1) force a Tera and (2) force Dirge to use Slack Off if it wants to survive a hit after killing the Basc.

Basc vs. Tink Calc

252+ SpA Adaptability Basculegion-F Surf vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Tinkaton: 136-160 (36.3 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The replay was meant to show how Basc influences the game without even needing to come out. Gapdos can't lock itself into a fighting move because Basc would make huge progress with a free turn, allowing me to get off an aggressive Spin with Cyclizar on Turn 16. Dirge would like to Tera to live a hit from Basc, but because Banded Meow is lurking in the back, my opp can't afford to lose their sturdy grass resist. So yes, Basc was only doing 40% to Fairy Dirge, but it forced awkward Gapdos positioning and a defensive Tera that ultimately won me the game.

Here's an example of Basc-F's breaking power (without Specs) vs. fat. The ability to switch moves is key here. Both of these replays are perhaps a testament to how strong Banded Meow is atm, but this could likely be recreated with another physical breaker. Turn 40, my opponent is put into another Basc/Meow checkmate with their Banded Arcanine. Espeed to kill the Meow, lose to Agility Basc. Let the Meow live, lose to Meow. (Ignore the misplay turn 30 lol)

Replay

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1903560988

 

[Negative Charge]

I just want to pile on the "meow is broken" train. Too fast, too strong. Flower Trick + Knock + Play Rough + U-Turn exerts way too much pressure imo. It generates too much value per turn and imo is reducing creativity in the builder.