And earlier I said I was in favor of a ban on having more than one swagger+prankster+foul play user.try this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91042093
extreme speed arceus AND rayquaza, and a rhyperior
And earlier I said I was in favor of a ban on having more than one swagger+prankster+foul play user.try this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91042093
extreme speed arceus AND rayquaza, and a rhyperior
Ah, then Glare seemingly is a good candidate for this argument as well. But the low distribution hurts more than likely.Glare is 100 percent accurate as of Gen 6. It has low distribution, though - the most common user is Zygarde.
I know the response to this will be "Why should we implement such a complex ban?", but last month Smogon implemented a clause that banned an item in combination with 2 moves. The clause was simplified, but even now the ban boils down to item + move/ability.I think that both the combinations of Prankster and Swagger, as well as Foul Play + Swagger should be banned. The uncompetitiveness of Prankster Swagger has already been thoroughly explained by other users, but from my experience facing Swagplay teams, I have generally found Swagger followed by Foul Play to be what makes the strategy broken. Foul Play makes a large majority of common Swagger users much more uncompetive, as a majority of common Swagger users can break through the opposing team much easier than they normally could. Swagger's confusing effects already grant the Swagger user free turns to do whatever the hell they want and the attacks boost means that Foul Play is going to do a Shiton of damage and limit the amount of turn the Pokemon affect by Swagger has to react in the situation.
Also, Haunter , I was wondering if these bans are going to apply to the 5th generations as well.
Tornadus and Thundurus are 100% counters since they can just Taunt it, but neither can switch into Swagger.Yeah, I agree that it was really Klefki that pushed this strategy over the edge. Honestly, the only thing I can really think of that can beat Swagger Klefki (and all of the others save for maybe Sableye) almost 100% is Chansey/Blissey (use 0 AtK IVs). Everything else gets hit with something like 20-40% minimum with Foul Play at +6, which will very easily add up when you inevitably get haxed 2-3 turns in a row.
Chansey/Blissey's reliability does need to be acknowledged, though I think this case is similar to Mega-Kangaskhan. Kanga had a basically 100% counter before in Sableye, and yet it was banned because having one counter isn't really enough. But I will note that last gen, Swagplay was never as overwhelming as it is now. I think the root of its recent popularity lies with Klefki. Perhaps just banning Swagger on Klefki would be the least intrusive solution.
just saying oblivious mamoswine and Lum berry chomp counter paraswagYeah, I agree that it was really Klefki that pushed this strategy over the edge. Honestly, the only thing I can really think of that can beat Swagger Klefki (and all of the others save for maybe Sableye) almost 100% is Chansey/Blissey (use 0 AtK IVs). Everything else gets hit with something like 20-40% minimum with Foul Play at +6, which will very easily add up when you inevitably get haxed 2-3 turns
Chansey/Blissey's reliability does need to be acknowledged, though I think this case is similar to Mega-Kangaskhan. Kanga had a basically 100% counter before in Sableye, and yet it was banned because having one counter isn't really enough. But I will note that last gen, Swagplay was never as overwhelming as it is now. I think the root of its recent popularity lies with Klefki. Perhaps just banning Swagger on Klefki would be the least intrusive solution.
Tornadus and Thundurus can't recover health. If they try to Taunt and are using a Swagplay set, Chansey/Blissey will just pound at them with Seismic Toss. (Blissey is the best here because of Leftovers).Toljik said:Tornadus and Thundurus are 100% counters since they can just Taunt it, but neither can switch into Swagger.
Lumberry Chomp can only switch into T-Wave not Swagger, and another Swagger means, you'll have 3x Atk and confusion...just saying oblivious mamoswine and Lum berry chomp counter paraswag
Counters to Klefki, not counters to the blobs. There's plenty of the latter.Tornadus and Thundurus can't recover health. If they try to Taunt and are using a Swagplay set, Chansey/Blissey will just pound at them with Seismic Toss.
How does Oblivious stop Klefki?just saying oblivious mamoswine and Lum berry chomp counter paraswag
Why are you staying in when swagger has you at +6 and you're eating foul plays? Lots of teams have a Rotom-W, who can't get paralyzed and has volt switch. Eat one swagger (or three, however many it takes), then pivot out to a ground type and now you threaten Klefki who 1) doesn't have a sub and 2) is facing a non-confused mon that he can't paralyze and who also has a super effective move. Klefki will likely swagger, and if you hurt yourself, swap back to Rotom and repeat the process until that fucker goes down. If you don't hurt yourself, congrats, dead Klefki.Yeah, I agree that it was really Klefki that pushed this strategy over the edge. Honestly, the only thing I can really think of that can beat Swagger Klefki (and all of the others save for maybe Sableye) almost 100% is Chansey/Blissey (use 0 AtK IVs). Everything else gets hit with something like 20-40% minimum with Foul Play at +6, which will very easily add up when you inevitably get haxed 2-3 turns in a row.
Chansey/Blissey's reliability does need to be acknowledged, though I think this case is similar to Mega-Kangaskhan. Kanga had a basically 100% counter before in Sableye, and yet it was banned because having one counter isn't really enough. But I will note that last gen, Swagplay was never as overwhelming as it is now. I think the root of its recent popularity lies with Klefki. Perhaps just banning Swagger on Klefki would be the least intrusive solution.
Again, all it takes is 1 simple Substitute user on your team and you can avoid ALL of this. The only time you have to be lucky is laying the initial substitute, after that you are golden.Only if you are sufficiently lucky. At some point to beat a swagplay team you WILL have to hit the opponent while confused. This alone wouldn't be so bad, but for every turn you hurt yourself in confusion, your opponent gets another chance to hide behind a Substitute, meaning you will have to hit him AGAIN through confusion. You CANNOT beat a swagplay team without some luck.
This guy has the right idea and is saying what I've been saying this whole time. The only luck involved is that which you force upon yourself, barring just a few turns, and if you have a special attacker with attack IV set to zero (you should), then eating confusion damage won't even matter.Why are you staying in when swagger has you at +6 and you're eating foul plays? Lots of teams have a Rotom-W, who can't get paralyzed and has volt switch. Eat one swagger (or three, however many it takes), then pivot out to a ground type and now you threaten Klefki who 1) doesn't have a sub and 2) is facing a non-confused mon that he can't paralyze and who also has a super effective move. Klefki will likely swagger, and if you hurt yourself, swap back to Rotom and repeat the process until that fucker goes down. If you don't hurt yourself, congrats, dead Klefki.
Teams with stuff like Suicune, Chansey, Zapdos, etc are at even more of an advantage because they can safely stall out all of Klefki's PP, but none of those are used as much as Rotom so I'll stick with him.
Chansey/Blissey having to take a +6 Foul Play is a worst-case scenario, as things like Spikestacking can often prevent just switching around to beat it. And even if they do have to take a Foul Play, Blissey takes only slightly more damage than Leftovers and Chansey takes less than 5% with 4/252 Defenses. The pink blobs are about as reliable as it gets.effyouzion said:Why are you staying in when swagger has you at +6 and you're eating foul plays?
Obviously Chansey is a counter, I even mentioned that myself. The guy I quoted was talking about leaving other mons (not Chansey) in against a +6 foul play.Chansey/Blissey having to take a +6 Foul Play is a worst-case scenario, as things like Spikestacking can often prevent just switching around to beat it. And even if they do have to take a Foul Play, Blissey takes only slightly more damage than Leftovers and Chansey takes less than 5% with 4/252 Defenses. The pink blobs are about as reliable as it gets.
I'm not arguing that Chansey/Blissey justify that Swagplay is balanced, I'm just bringing them up to attention, because they are effective against it.
I agree with much of what you said but here is the greater point I've been making;I can't believe this thread came up. Granted, it's the community that influenced this, but still...
Yes. Liepard and Klefki are insanely annoying and luck-reliant. I've played enough gen 5 nu (arguably the meta where this was used the most) to know that. People who use it rely on coin flips to get anything done, and are poor ladderers in general. It's probably the most obnoxious strategy you'll see when laddering.
But still. Is it really worth banning such a stupid strategy just because it can cause a coin flip? If we do, where do we stop? Do we ban king's rock Cloyster, Cinccino because it can potentially flinch and 2HKO your counter? Ban Dunsparce, Jirachi, and Togekiss because good paralysis and flinch rolls can potentially sweep a team? There's still confuse ray too, after all.
It's a very slippery slope. You ban one luck-reliant strategy and the community will want another gone because it simply frustrated them. Luck is a part of Pokemon and no matter how many bans are taken to limit its influence it will always play a factor. Some bans like evasion and OHKO moves make sense because they take this to the extreme. But I think moving on to paraswag is a very bad idea.
sorry I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Lum berry cancels confusion so if you bring in garchomp while he's not swaggering your well off I would thinkLumberry Chomp can only switch into T-Wave not Swagger, and another Swagger means, you'll have 3x Atk and confusion...
It can switch into any not-Swagger move, but if you switch in Garchomp to a predcted Swagger and it eats the Lum Berry, it's no longer protected against confusion. Also it works only once, if you're unlucky enough to face that arsehole using 4-6 pranksters.sorry I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Lum berry cancels confusion so if you bring in garchomp while he's not swaggering your well off I would think
The threat of Garchomp alone makes this strategy less reliant on luck, even if it only works once. Lum Berry Garchomp can wreck your Klefki if you mis-predict, so you need to think instead of mindlessly hitting a move.sorry I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Lum berry cancels confusion so if you bring in garchomp while he's not swaggering your well off I would think
The only moves the metagame "need" are Tackle and Return. (This needs to be an OMOTM). Nothing is strictly necessary in Pokemon.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91042093
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-91058271
Oh god, this is funny.
Seriously, if swagplay can be checked or countered isent the point.
The question is: why we need it?
Is like Double Team or Minimize.