Oh this is such an annoying topic. I have a table of brasilians (no offense to brasilians), and they all sit in their own table and point at people, laugh, and keep talking portugeuse. So aggravating -.-'
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Talking accross the table is rude (Language Discussion)
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
It being rude, Lexite, merely resides upon your definition of what is or is not rude. People making fun of people is rude when it is purely speculative or possibly completely vulgar, but if I see an especially fat or ugly person, then I will probably laugh at him or her. This is not rude to me, as it is an entirely natural reaction. Levity and mocking are only bad things because you let them be. I bet you play the 'insult game' with some of your friends, which would make you rude too, so who even cares any more (or if you want to claim you are not rude, then a hypocrite, and equally worthless an opinion then).
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This being my natural reaction hardly means it isn't rude. Then again, I don't exactly give a fuck.
I am not even going to bother arguing with you. If you do not think it is rude to laugh and make fun of someone to their face then you are an immature and a horrible person. And I hope that the next fat person you do laugh at punches you in the face.
I agree with RL. If you can speak fluent english, there is absolutely no reason to start speaking another language when with other people. It is for secrecy purposes which is rude and obnoxious. Perfect wording too; "a slap in the face." Maybe that's not exactly their intentions, but that's how it comes off. They don't want you to know what they are saying and that's pretty disrespectful during a public gathering. In private, it's their own deal. In public, it's impolite. RL hit it right on the head of the nail with this issue.
The security reasoning is a bit farfetched in my opinon though.
The security reasoning is a bit farfetched in my opinon though.
What I find offensive is when travelling abroad and people assume that you know how to speak in their native language. This happens especially in France (no offense to any Frenchmen or Frenchwomen here).
It would go something like this:
Me: Bonjour.
Him: Bonjour Monsieur. <Speaks in French for about half a minute.>
Me: Uh, sorry but I don't understand French.
Him: Ooh. <Looks at me somewhat crossly, then proceeds to speak in English.>
Just because I know that 'bonjour' means 'good morning' doesn't mean I know how to speak in French. But apparently they assume that everyone is able to speak French until you tell them that you don't.
And this comes from someone whose first language is not English.
It would go something like this:
Me: Bonjour.
Him: Bonjour Monsieur. <Speaks in French for about half a minute.>
Me: Uh, sorry but I don't understand French.
Him: Ooh. <Looks at me somewhat crossly, then proceeds to speak in English.>
Just because I know that 'bonjour' means 'good morning' doesn't mean I know how to speak in French. But apparently they assume that everyone is able to speak French until you tell them that you don't.
And this comes from someone whose first language is not English.
I'm pretty sure it's partially a french thing. :P. If you only know a few words of french, it's pretty likely you'll sound like you don't speak french - much the same way you can spot someone who learnt English as a second language. You don't pronounce things right, the emphasis on syllables is slightly off, there's slight pauses while you think what the word or grammatical construct is, etc.
On the OP - don't be ridiculous. While they may be fluent in English, they probably still think in Creole. Speaking a second language can be a serious mental effort, and it's not hurting you at all. Holding a private conversation right next to some people in a public space might be a little rude, but the language used is of no concern to you.
We all speak our own private languages, anyway. In real life, I speak Nerd. I'll casually reference XKCD, the theory of relativity, internet memes, and jokes about C++ (C++ - all the power and speed of assembly combined with the readability and maintainability of assembly). Not because I'm trying to appear smart, just because it's what I know. The result is that when I talk to people who aren't horrendous geeks I have to keep backpedalling when I realise I've been detailing the differences between RISC and CISC architectures for the last five minutes and their eyes have glazed over*.
I'm sure you've all got similar personal dialects. Sure, it might not restrict communication as much as another language, and it might not take as much effort to overcome, but you've experienced a very minor form of what people speaking English (or any other language) as a second language feel. Take the cognitive effort required to retarget your personal dialect, and multiply it by a few orders of magnitude. That's what you're saying people should do, for the sake of 'politeness'.
*It doesn't help that I know a few phrases in a bunch of other languages, too, and they've sort of slipped into my vocabulary. Every so often I'll buy something and casually say "danke" to the clerk.
On the OP - don't be ridiculous. While they may be fluent in English, they probably still think in Creole. Speaking a second language can be a serious mental effort, and it's not hurting you at all. Holding a private conversation right next to some people in a public space might be a little rude, but the language used is of no concern to you.
We all speak our own private languages, anyway. In real life, I speak Nerd. I'll casually reference XKCD, the theory of relativity, internet memes, and jokes about C++ (C++ - all the power and speed of assembly combined with the readability and maintainability of assembly). Not because I'm trying to appear smart, just because it's what I know. The result is that when I talk to people who aren't horrendous geeks I have to keep backpedalling when I realise I've been detailing the differences between RISC and CISC architectures for the last five minutes and their eyes have glazed over*.
I'm sure you've all got similar personal dialects. Sure, it might not restrict communication as much as another language, and it might not take as much effort to overcome, but you've experienced a very minor form of what people speaking English (or any other language) as a second language feel. Take the cognitive effort required to retarget your personal dialect, and multiply it by a few orders of magnitude. That's what you're saying people should do, for the sake of 'politeness'.
*It doesn't help that I know a few phrases in a bunch of other languages, too, and they've sort of slipped into my vocabulary. Every so often I'll buy something and casually say "danke" to the clerk.
You sound just as ridiculous as the OP. You begin the conversation in French, and then get offended when the other person begins speaking French... They simply assumed you could speak French because hey, you started talking to them in French. Just say hello next time if you don't know a lick of French.
People these days get offended by everything.
You are just immature. It isnt rude, it is called speaking in your native language. So you are saying that if you went to another country that spoke another language and you went with a buddy, you would speak in the other language just because you are in that other country, you wouldnt speak english when you and your buddy know english better then you know that other language. These two learned how to speak in French first and will always speak French then they will speak English. It is more convient for them to speak in French since they both know French. Grow up.
X-Act I have to agree with everyone else, this is kind of stupid. You greeted them in French in a French speaking country, of course they will assume you speak French.
Though he did have the good morning thing right, as bonjour is used as 'hello' and 'good morning'.
I can't believe someone is trying to rationalize what I consider to be one of the weirdest thing (to stay polite) that's ever been posted on smogon.
Yes, he probably said "bonjour" with a foreign accent. It is possible the waiter might pick up on it and speak english but it is highly unlikely. What it sounds to me, is an attempt to speak french, an attempt to make the conversation french, which you should respond to with french. If I went to Spain to learn the language, I would be clumsy with it, but I sort of hope people would interract with me in spanish when I take the initiative to use that language.
Secondly, from "bonjour", while he might guess it didnt come from a native french speaker, he wont necessairly know what is that speaker's first language. It is possible to know if you're used to accents, but it can also be difficult to tell.
A France thing, what the fuck. People would naturally react the same way to this everywhere.
It does not matter if it is rude, but it does matter that it proves that the fine smogon staff does not have to follow rules like everyone else. Not that I mind, it makes your incomprehenisible hardline against 'noobies' and 'unknowns' so hypocritically hilarious. (Sorry to any smogon staff who this does not apply to, it just happens all the time so!!)
P.S. Vineon the french assumption bit is not rude, but talking across a table is? That is quite (faultily) paradoxical.
Lexite, I do not care if it is immature. Once again, you are making value judgements that matter to you and foisting them upon others (or specifically me here). Maybe your value is more or less sensible than mine, but it has no bearing on my argument (I do not know whatever term people use to make themselves sound smarter to win arguments by default, but what you are doing is using this to dismiss an argument in a transparently flimsy manner). To claim being rude matters when it is NOT wildly, and probably maliciously, damaging makes your argument immature, no matter how wildly mature I suppose you must be. I do not specify merely physically because sure, maybe some fat person will commit suicide because I laugh at him or her bobbling rampantly as he or she walks, and some would argue that makes me responsible. Of course, I do not believe that, but I do want to preempt any 'GOTCHA' response!
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I was replying to X-Act & jamespicone. A different argument which has nothing to do with the table scenario.
Try to keep up, I never said anything about talking across a table.
I wasn't trying to rationalise it, Vineon. Note the 'partially' in 'partially a french thing'. As far as I am aware, the French, in general, like their language. Once again, AFAIK, they are more likely to try and speak French at a tourist than, say, a German is likely to speak German at a tourist in Germany. That's not a criticism of France or the French - it's just an interesting cultural facet. And yes, they wouldn't necessarily know what languages X-Act is comfortable in. And yes, it's a natural reaction to use a language that X-Act has already spoken something in. I was just noting that there are some cultural considerations and that it was probably obvious that it wasn't a language X-Act was fluent in.
The only thing I find offensive in all this can be summed up by two words: The public.
I won't prevent you, whatever country you are in, from speaking in your native language. I won't create rules to stop you. I won't hate you. I won't even give a damned damn about you. Just don't do it in front of me.
If you want to talk in your native language, don't do it in the public. The thing that makes it disrespectful is not using a different language, but the time and place you use it. This is basically suggested by the title: Talking across the table. If you're sitting along with some 10 people on a table, discussing something like why Garchomp should or shouldn't be uber, and then someone just goes like 'peor satina le madelk beakga Garchompy dus senq ou' out of nowhere, with a loud voice, across the table, while the other guy goes like 'wiyuf kjlnbvu yufksh fkdavu', what will your reaction be? You aren't going to go like 'let them talk as they want to, it's there language', are you? That's ridiculous. It's just like someone jumping to his friend in the middle of a serious conservation and whispering to him, while the others watch. Is that supposed to be "freedom in expressing"?
Talk about me and curse me the way you want, the language you want, the place you want, the time you want. Just not in front of me.
I won't prevent you, whatever country you are in, from speaking in your native language. I won't create rules to stop you. I won't hate you. I won't even give a damned damn about you. Just don't do it in front of me.
If you want to talk in your native language, don't do it in the public. The thing that makes it disrespectful is not using a different language, but the time and place you use it. This is basically suggested by the title: Talking across the table. If you're sitting along with some 10 people on a table, discussing something like why Garchomp should or shouldn't be uber, and then someone just goes like 'peor satina le madelk beakga Garchompy dus senq ou' out of nowhere, with a loud voice, across the table, while the other guy goes like 'wiyuf kjlnbvu yufksh fkdavu', what will your reaction be? You aren't going to go like 'let them talk as they want to, it's there language', are you? That's ridiculous. It's just like someone jumping to his friend in the middle of a serious conservation and whispering to him, while the others watch. Is that supposed to be "freedom in expressing"?
Talk about me and curse me the way you want, the language you want, the place you want, the time you want. Just not in front of me.
1. If you're sat with ten other people discussing Garchomp's tier, language is the least of your problems.
2. Why the hell not? People can converse privately if they wish, whether it's in another language or just speaking to each other on a one-to-one basis, even in a group situation. Most of my conversations with friends are obscure references and in-jokes that may as well be another language to the company we're in. This may be somewhat daft, but I think people tend to have closer friends, and to be in the company of several (lets stick with your example and say ten) other people you are equally close to, who are all as close to each other is rather contrived; people will naturally turn to speaking in smaller groups to the people they're more comfortable with and speak more privately. I don't see a problem with that, whether it's in another language, they're sharing in-jokes we're not privy to, or speaking about a subject that I have no interest or knowledge of. I don't mind; if they think it important enough to discuss in a way others can't understand you then they're either more comfortable conversing in that language, which is entirely their right; would rather not share it with the rest of the group, which is also their right (whether it's because offensive or just obscure); or they are rude and thoughtless in which case it's highly unlikely they'd have anything to say worth listening to.
Putting laws and "free country" in this is going a little too far. There's laws, and there's "things you just don't do because they're rude". You don't get fined for talking with your mouth full of food or farting really loud during a funeral, but you sure as hell are going to get dirty looks.
Now, if people talk Spanish when they're on the same bus or train station as me, that's fine. But if you're having dinner together, you should at least be polite and talk in the language you all share. There's plenty of time you can spend with close friends in everyone else's absence, but at that point you should probably be more considerate and social. Not doing so gives others (or at least, me) the feeling that "you're not into this", that you're excluding others. It's like whispering to each other. In fact, you may even raise the perception that they're talking gossip behind someone's back. It's not a fun feeling.
Now, if people talk Spanish when they're on the same bus or train station as me, that's fine. But if you're having dinner together, you should at least be polite and talk in the language you all share. There's plenty of time you can spend with close friends in everyone else's absence, but at that point you should probably be more considerate and social. Not doing so gives others (or at least, me) the feeling that "you're not into this", that you're excluding others. It's like whispering to each other. In fact, you may even raise the perception that they're talking gossip behind someone's back. It's not a fun feeling.
Ok, now you are the one that is rude. There are so many different cultures in the US and so many different languages. Yes the majority of people here speak English but there are many people that speak many different languages. Even if those people are fluent, it is always going to be easier for them to speak in English. You are just being a rude, pompous jerk if you are saying that everyone around you has to speak in English.