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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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Like the great Shofu mentioned in one of his live streams, talonflame is also hard walled by heatran and rotom-w ;)
Heatran maybe.
But Rotom-W can be 2hko if it's not as full health.
Rotom-W "bulkiest" set in the calc : +2 252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 145-171 (47.85 - 56.43%) -- 35.55% chance to 2HKO
That's item-less Talonflame, if you give him a Sky Plate it goes :
+2 252+ Atk Sky Plate (custom) Brave Bird vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Leftovers can't stop it either)
And a life orb :
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 188-222 (62.87 - 74.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously you want to try and switch your Rotom-W into an unboosted Talonflame, but if you can't you're in trouble.
Heatran can take hits better sure, but most of the time it doesn't carry anything that Talonflame can't outheal. Earth Power can't hit it, fire attacks are well, NFE, hidden power is at best Neutral, as is Dragon Pulse. Best it can do is roar it away or use Toxic.
+2 252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran: 145-171 (37.66 - 44.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Can still dish a lot of damage before being roared away too.
Obviously those calcs are flawed, because new sets will probably arise for those Pokemons in 6th gens, maybe more physically defense oriented. But with what we have here, Heatran and Rotom while better than most at stopping Talonflame, they aren't immune to failure.
I would never have believed it before spending some time testing it out, but I honesty believe Talonflame is a top tier OU threat. Keeping rocks off of the field in this gen is ridiculously easy with Defog - I use Defog+Stealth Rock Gliscor, gets the job done no problem. I've found that if you just put a little effort into constructing your team around clearing the path for a Talonflame sweep by chipping its counters down to about 45%, you can often steamroll teams and have a virtually 100% win if you can find just that 1 turn of set up. Talonflame is basically kind of like Swords Dance Scizor if Bullet Punch was a base 120 bp and not resisted by half the metagame.
It's kind of ridiculous actually how formulaic it is: scan the opponent's team during team preview for pokemon that are not OHKOed by +2 Brave Bird, locate a pokemon you can get one turn of set up against (Scizor is a common one), lure out counters (usually 2 per team) and sacrifice whatever you need to get them to 50% damage, then find the turn to SD and you've automatically won. It's obviously not fool proof, but even in the event that a sweep is impossible, having such a powerful priority attack is incredibly useful - making it impossible for you to ever get swept by opposing priority like BellyJet Azumarril, SD Breloom, etc.
This bird is good.
It's kind of ridiculous actually how formulaic it is: scan the opponent's team during team preview for pokemon that are not OHKOed by +2 Brave Bird, locate a pokemon you can get one turn of set up against (Scizor is a common one), lure out counters (usually 2 per team) and sacrifice whatever you need to get them to 50% damage, then find the turn to SD and you've automatically won. It's obviously not fool proof, but even in the event that a sweep is impossible, having such a powerful priority attack is incredibly useful - making it impossible for you to ever get swept by opposing priority like BellyJet Azumarril, SD Breloom, etc.
This bird is good.
So I've started running a defensive Bulk Up set and it's doing very well.
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 196 SDef / 248 HP / 64 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up
It allows it to be both a late game threat and a midgame pivot. I've been giving it Defog support and it's been great. The priority roost and brave bird are what really makes the set and the ability to burn switchins has been great.
Atm I'm running just enough speed to outspeed Jolly Garchomp, but I have seen a few Terrakions that have been making me think I should run a little more. But the bulk over speed keeps winning out seeing as half my moves are priority anyway.
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 196 SDef / 248 HP / 64 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up
It allows it to be both a late game threat and a midgame pivot. I've been giving it Defog support and it's been great. The priority roost and brave bird are what really makes the set and the ability to burn switchins has been great.
Atm I'm running just enough speed to outspeed Jolly Garchomp, but I have seen a few Terrakions that have been making me think I should run a little more. But the bulk over speed keeps winning out seeing as half my moves are priority anyway.
i think you should run enough speed to outrun a mega lucario imo i think every tallonflame just run enough speed to outrun base 112 speed becuase you want to make sure mega lucario dies with flare blitz imo.
So as most have noted, mostly rock types, heatran, and rotom-w can check talonflame. But all of those checks have one common thing that stop them sans rotom-w, dugtrio. Dugtrio can easily remove the likes of tyranitar and heatran and most other rock types that would hope to check you. Talonflame also has access to U-Turn so you can go right to dugtrio while breaking any potential balloons things like heatran would have. Its fairly good combo from my testing because many of talonflame's checks are the SR setters for peoples teams. Once they go down you can spin or defog away the rocks not have to worry about SR for the rest of the game.
it isn't going to die in 1 brave bird since it resists it and then you take a hydro pump to the face and die, seems like a pretty standard check to me
you will be forced to switch out and lose buffs or roll the dice on Hydro missing
I've tried running Talonflame as somewhat of a suicidal lead, with the following set.
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt
- U-turn (Swords Dance could also go in this slot)
Taunt may seem like an odd choice, but it allows me to easily deal with Aegislash (who I've been seeing on around 60% of the teams I've faced) without having to predict around King's Shield. It's hard to gauge exactly how effective this set might be in the long term, as a lot of teams I've faced haven't had a particularly good lead pokemon to counter it, and few pokemon are able to switch in and take a hit, and then survive a priority Brave Bird.
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt
- U-turn (Swords Dance could also go in this slot)
Taunt may seem like an odd choice, but it allows me to easily deal with Aegislash (who I've been seeing on around 60% of the teams I've faced) without having to predict around King's Shield. It's hard to gauge exactly how effective this set might be in the long term, as a lot of teams I've faced haven't had a particularly good lead pokemon to counter it, and few pokemon are able to switch in and take a hit, and then survive a priority Brave Bird.
I've been using and testing this from the front page:
"Swords Dance Talonflame"
Item : Flying Gem
Ability : Gale Wing
Nature : Adamant
EV Spread : 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Moveset : Swords Dance | Acrobatics | Flare Blitz | Roost
This set is monstrous. It's capable of hurting things badly, and once a swords dance or two is up, it's an almost guaranteed gg. This thing is more of a hole puncher for stronger pokemon, though, rather than a main sweeper (unless you get a few SDs in). I feel like this thing is so underrated though. At 71% health, it's bulk let it survive a volt switch from Thundurus-I under a roost, so it has some sort of bulk that shouldn't be overlooked for such a great wallbreaking sweeper. But it's definitely a top tier threat. It deserves to be in OU. It's been killing massively in OU, and doesn't deserve to go any lower.
"Swords Dance Talonflame"
Item : Flying Gem
Ability : Gale Wing
Nature : Adamant
EV Spread : 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
Moveset : Swords Dance | Acrobatics | Flare Blitz | Roost
This set is monstrous. It's capable of hurting things badly, and once a swords dance or two is up, it's an almost guaranteed gg. This thing is more of a hole puncher for stronger pokemon, though, rather than a main sweeper (unless you get a few SDs in). I feel like this thing is so underrated though. At 71% health, it's bulk let it survive a volt switch from Thundurus-I under a roost, so it has some sort of bulk that shouldn't be overlooked for such a great wallbreaking sweeper. But it's definitely a top tier threat. It deserves to be in OU. It's been killing massively in OU, and doesn't deserve to go any lower.
I would like to point something out. I was having a battle yesterday against my friend and we are both fairly reasonable and competant skill. so when I derped and protected my blaziken for a speed boost against a azumarill and let him set up belly drum aqua jet, It looked all over. he stood at three pokemon, and a nasty little water rabbit was the threat. and I had two (Greninja and Talonflame) All I could do was rely on my Phenoix. And thats what I did. And he priority brave birded his remaining 3 Pokemon for OHKOs. This thing is great a a lifeline. Priority OHKO a Mega gengar is good. infact anything not resisting with only average defenses cant uasually take a hit from this guy when banded.
Most Talonflame checks mentioned can't deal with an U-Turn into Dugtrio, though (outside of the aforemented Rotom-W)
Heatran can't take a Dugtrio Earthquake after an U-Turn, and Dugtrio + Talonflame looks extremely potent to clean up Rock-types.
Regirock is probably the most reliable check to this core, though, since I don't think Dugtrio can 2HKO it (Regirock is a bulky mofo (80/200/100 bulk)) while Regi certainly 2HKO's Dugtrio with Ice Punch. Regirock needs Wish support whenever possible though.
Talonflame is a beast. A ridiculous beast.
Heatran can't take a Dugtrio Earthquake after an U-Turn, and Dugtrio + Talonflame looks extremely potent to clean up Rock-types.
Regirock is probably the most reliable check to this core, though, since I don't think Dugtrio can 2HKO it (Regirock is a bulky mofo (80/200/100 bulk)) while Regi certainly 2HKO's Dugtrio with Ice Punch. Regirock needs Wish support whenever possible though.
Talonflame is a beast. A ridiculous beast.
Speaking of Talonflame checks and trappers, Mega Aerodactyl is a decent one that cannot be trapped by Dugtrio and also beats Mega Gengar. The only thing to worry about is a +2 gem boosted acrobatics, as even though it's resisted, Mega Aerodactyl takes it very poorly.
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 244-288 (81.06 - 95.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course Talonflame can just u-turn out on the predicted switch in, but Mega Aero is still a check nonetheless.
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 244-288 (81.06 - 95.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Of course Talonflame can just u-turn out on the predicted switch in, but Mega Aero is still a check nonetheless.
I've been wondering about running Fire Blast vs. Flare Blitz. Your base SpA is about the same (so it will end up lower since you'll invest harder into phys. atk, but not by too much), and fire blast was recently nerfed to be 10 BP lower than flare blitz.
However there are 3 types where Fire has an advantage over flying, steel ice and electric. You'll be spamming flying moves because of priority if your flying and fire tie for power anyway.
For Steel types, they are your number one target with fire moves, since fire is super effective and flying and the rest of your coverage is NVE. In almost all cases their special defense is significantly lower than physical defense. It's true for (mega) scizor, mega mawile, skarmory, forretress, magnezone, ferrothorn somewhat, metagross. There are a few steels about equal. Excadrill, heatran(lol like flare blitz vs fire blast matters anyway), genesect, jirachi. But there really aren't any exceptions...empoleon, and that's about it. So in many cases, Fire Blast>Flare Blitz.
For ice types, well, first they aren't all that common because of crap defensive typing. But the most common ones out there in BW, KyuremB, Cloyster, Mamoswine, are all not weak to fire anyway (and still neutral to flying). Though they had lower SpD anyway.
Electrics are really the only spot where Flare Blitz has a big advantage. They're also the only type out of these 3 where you're just gonna want to gtfo from them.
Fire Blast also gets bonus points for not killing yourself when you use it. And loses some for having 85% accuracy.
Edit: oh yeah, and there's overheat if Fire Blast is too weak/inaccurate for you. And I skipped from page 5 to 8 out of lazyness and found I managed to avoid this exact discussion quite precisely
However there are 3 types where Fire has an advantage over flying, steel ice and electric. You'll be spamming flying moves because of priority if your flying and fire tie for power anyway.
For Steel types, they are your number one target with fire moves, since fire is super effective and flying and the rest of your coverage is NVE. In almost all cases their special defense is significantly lower than physical defense. It's true for (mega) scizor, mega mawile, skarmory, forretress, magnezone, ferrothorn somewhat, metagross. There are a few steels about equal. Excadrill, heatran(lol like flare blitz vs fire blast matters anyway), genesect, jirachi. But there really aren't any exceptions...empoleon, and that's about it. So in many cases, Fire Blast>Flare Blitz.
For ice types, well, first they aren't all that common because of crap defensive typing. But the most common ones out there in BW, KyuremB, Cloyster, Mamoswine, are all not weak to fire anyway (and still neutral to flying). Though they had lower SpD anyway.
Electrics are really the only spot where Flare Blitz has a big advantage. They're also the only type out of these 3 where you're just gonna want to gtfo from them.
Fire Blast also gets bonus points for not killing yourself when you use it. And loses some for having 85% accuracy.
Edit: oh yeah, and there's overheat if Fire Blast is too weak/inaccurate for you. And I skipped from page 5 to 8 out of lazyness and found I managed to avoid this exact discussion quite precisely
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I'm thinking of partnering Talonflame and Noivern/Rotom-W depending on enemy lineup to support my MegaMawile.
I'm gonna run U-turn/Tailwind Talonflame and a Taunt/U-turn Noivern, Paralyze/Will-O-Wisp for my Rotom.
Noivern covers up the Electric weakness while Talonflame covers up the Ice weakness. MegaMawile will handle the burst damage and bulkiness. Rotom-w for pissing off people. :)
I'm gonna run U-turn/Tailwind Talonflame and a Taunt/U-turn Noivern, Paralyze/Will-O-Wisp for my Rotom.
Noivern covers up the Electric weakness while Talonflame covers up the Ice weakness. MegaMawile will handle the burst damage and bulkiness. Rotom-w for pissing off people. :)
Talonflame (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz
- Acrobatics
- Roost
I think people are seriously underrating (or ignoring) this set. It's amazing as a late game sweeper, setting up on a larger amount of threats such as SD (Mega)Scizor and Aegislash, whose priority attacks do laughable damage after a few boosts. In practice, its better than SD Talonflame for its ability to beat Aegislash and Megamawile one on one. Also, Acrobatics is no joke either, with monstrous power with Flying Gem, and is a 110 BP move with no drawbacks or recoil, adding to Flame's ability for a prolonged sweep. Heatran, Tryanitar, and Tyranitrum are its biggest counters, Rhyperior as well if it goes to UU, but all are easily taken care of by any offensive water like Greninja or Starmie (whose ability to spin away those SR makes it an invaluable teammate), or Grachomp if you have another spinner or defog user.
Trait: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz
- Acrobatics
- Roost
I think people are seriously underrating (or ignoring) this set. It's amazing as a late game sweeper, setting up on a larger amount of threats such as SD (Mega)Scizor and Aegislash, whose priority attacks do laughable damage after a few boosts. In practice, its better than SD Talonflame for its ability to beat Aegislash and Megamawile one on one. Also, Acrobatics is no joke either, with monstrous power with Flying Gem, and is a 110 BP move with no drawbacks or recoil, adding to Flame's ability for a prolonged sweep. Heatran, Tryanitar, and Tyranitrum are its biggest counters, Rhyperior as well if it goes to UU, but all are easily taken care of by any offensive water like Greninja or Starmie (whose ability to spin away those SR makes it an invaluable teammate), or Grachomp if you have another spinner or defog user.
God damn, this thing is so insane... we underestimated it like crazy. I highly doubt this thing will be UU-- it just is so deadly if given even the slightest opening to set up.
I totally agree. I almost want to go back in time and strangle myself for calling this thing overhyped and overrated. Like, this thing is such a threat to like 75% of my teams that I find myself running a Rotom-W on almost all of my teams just because it's one of the few Pokemon that can tank the deadly Fire/Flying combination comfortably and check it. It's a shame that most of the ones that I'm seeing are using All Out Attacking Life Orb Brave Bird and not SD or BU Acrobatics sets, which are easily the more terrifying sets thanks to its lack of recoil and insane power. I've tried both the BU set and the SD set, and it's hard to pinpoint which is probably the best right now. I think the SD set is more terrifying because it boosts it power to insane levels and it can clean up so easily, but the BU set, while harder to setup, can actually make Talonflame just plow through teams with ease if it gets an opportunity to setup. Speaking of which, setting up is actually easier at times then I thought, because it forces so many switches. But yeah, my god this thing is just so scary. If it's common enough, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhyperior will see the light of OU because it's one of the best counters to this thing in the game. Tyrantrum's a pretty nice switch-in too. I kind of compare this thing to Volcarona in a way, because yes it's incredibly weak to Stealth Rock and it needs a decent amount of support to succeed, but it's just so good that it doesn't even matter.
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This thing will be a staple on those starmie hyper offense teams. Being able to revenge kill with priority brave bird is too much to be ignored. At first I thought it would be rarely used due to it's huge weakness to stealth rock, but when facing and using this, I realized that this pokemon is definetely a top tier threat. Being able to stop hyper offense team's sweeps cold is what makes this bird especially amazing.
Originally I compared Talonflame to Volcarona in that its an extremely dangerous sweeper that only needs one boost to get going, yet Stealth Rock severely hampers its ability to come in. However, there a few key factors that Talonflame has that Volcarona does not.
- Flying type grants it immunity to Sticky Web. This is absolutely huge in a metagame where Sticky Web is probably going to be used quite a bit. Volcarona is Bug/Fire with Flame Body, so it does not have the pleasure of being immune to Sticky Web.
- Priority Roost. Talonflame can come in, threaten something, and Roost off its Stealth Rock damage in one go.
Originally I had thought using Aegislash would work pretty well on Talonflame, but fullmetalpsycho's Bulk Up set actually makes me question that. Bulk Up would let Talonflame beat its counters like stated. I'm really wondering what could take on Talonflame 1v1 and function as a counter. Barbaracle (I hope I'm spelling that right.) could work on non-bulk up sets due to its typing that resists both of its STABs, but if Talonflame carries Bulk Up or WoW, Barbaracle isn't doing much. Priority Brave Bird means that a lot of Talonflame's offensive counters are getting absolutely nailed. Tyranitar MIGHT work but he doesn't like being burned or hit with U-Turn.
I don't know a surefire counter (I say this because it gets U-Turn and Wil-o-Wisp to help itself) for this thing, but I do feel like its going to be an upper level threat once the meta settles.
- Flying type grants it immunity to Sticky Web. This is absolutely huge in a metagame where Sticky Web is probably going to be used quite a bit. Volcarona is Bug/Fire with Flame Body, so it does not have the pleasure of being immune to Sticky Web.
- Priority Roost. Talonflame can come in, threaten something, and Roost off its Stealth Rock damage in one go.
Originally I had thought using Aegislash would work pretty well on Talonflame, but fullmetalpsycho's Bulk Up set actually makes me question that. Bulk Up would let Talonflame beat its counters like stated. I'm really wondering what could take on Talonflame 1v1 and function as a counter. Barbaracle (I hope I'm spelling that right.) could work on non-bulk up sets due to its typing that resists both of its STABs, but if Talonflame carries Bulk Up or WoW, Barbaracle isn't doing much. Priority Brave Bird means that a lot of Talonflame's offensive counters are getting absolutely nailed. Tyranitar MIGHT work but he doesn't like being burned or hit with U-Turn.
I don't know a surefire counter (I say this because it gets U-Turn and Wil-o-Wisp to help itself) for this thing, but I do feel like its going to be an upper level threat once the meta settles.
I'm just glad Bulk Up is the ONLY Fighting technique it gets. If Talonflame had Rock Smash, I could even see it going to Ubers honestly... at least right now, any Rock-type not named Terrakion (lol) that has any sort of bulk can keep the Acrobatics onslaught at bay (kinda, sorta-- TTar does check it almost completely unless it has W-o-W and uses it while TTar tries Pursuit instead of Stone Edge). Also you can use Hidden Power Rock Heatran if that's your thing... lol
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