Team Preview

In my opinion, Team Preview is really just a step on a scale of randomness vs. predictability, towards the predictability end. Personally, I think this is for the better since Pokemon is pretty damn random as it is. It allows more for strategy as opposed to chance. While it does make the game more predictable in one aspect, all the other unpredictabilities remain, meaning you still have to think ahead and come up with contingency plans in case something goes wrong.

I also like that it means that if you screw up now and say end up getting swept because you lost your counters, now it's your fault and not just bad luck. We can still blame the game on hax, but at least now we can't blame it on someone pulling a double dance terrakion out of their ass right after your Slowbro goes down.

I'm not going to say that Team preview make the game better so much as it makes it different. New strategies were born and old ones died, just as you'd normally expect in a generational change. The same goes for all the other changes this generation. As far as I can tell, it's no better or worse than the last generation. It's a different game now, and there's no point whining about it now.
 
I don't really know how much I can contribute here, as I just started learning the competitive aspects of the game as the 5th gen Pokemon were being revealed, and I just started battling about a month ago. I guess you can take this as a new player's perspective.

I like a lot of the points being made, especially the one just made by Jimera0. It is a step towards predictability, which is nice in a very random game. It is also just a different game, as Jimera0 said. As a new player, I like it a lot. You can judge how aggressively you want to play with your hazards-setter(s) based on whether you see a Spinner or Espeon/Xatu. You can see Baton Pass teams coming or see if they have a phazer before attempting to set-up on your own. It allows new players to learn common sets quickly, while also learning how to play their own teams better.

The point of the game is not to cater to new players though, which is the next level of Team Preview I think. I know what you have, and you know what I have. I can switch in my Heatran every time your Ferrothorn comes out, but soon you'll catch on and start double-switching out to your Tyranitar, but maybe I'll suspect that and switch out to Conkeldurr instead. You have to think about what you're opponent is thinking and play accordingly. It also allows for aggressive predictions because you know how valuable each Pokemon will be right from the start.

Like others have said, Team Preview rewards creative sets, as players make game plans based on the most common sets. I ran a Scarf Cinccino in NU last month, which caught some people off-guard, as they thought their Scarf Sawk sweep was in the bag when it wasn't. A more OU example might be something like a Magic Coat Magnezone against a trapped Ferrothorn, or a Snatch/Sucker Punch Absol against DDNite (like I said, I'm still new, so forgive the bad examples). Sure, the standard sets are usually best; that's why they're standard. But depending on what your team does, a surprise set or two can be gamebreaking. With so many dangerous threats around, one surprise move or crucial stat distribution can destroy an important piece of the opponent's team and win the game for you.
 
Ive never fallen for those, in fact i always call when i need to pursuit or kill a switch-in pokemon, but i'd like to point out that teampreveiw often takes the fun out of battling. Its boring if you know what you opponent has and as for the saving you from stuff, its not like you can change your team if you see your vunerable to theirs. you can only switch the order and so can they. You see their tea, they see yur team. If you were going to counter them after seeing what they have, they would double-counter you(i think thats what you call it?) because they can see yours.
 
^ Except again, as I said, you still don't know their set. If they have extremely common pokemon, you have a good idea of how they play, but you still don't know. Seeing the pokemon sprite in no way shows you what sets they have and allows you to perfectly predict and turn the game into chess.
 
WinstonShnozwick said:
It's more random when you don't know the oppoents team, because then, you can't make a definate decision in battle if they can switch to an unknown pokemon.
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This more concisely sums up what I was trying to say. In Gen IV, if you're opponent kept something hidden all game and it's a close match, choosing what pokemon to sacrifice basically came down to a guessing game. You could make educated guesses to an extent; if the opposing team already had three electric weaknesses, chances are the last pokemon isn't Gyarados. However, with 50-ish pokemon in OU, at some point you just had to take a stab in the dark. At least in B/W if I have no pokemon left that can stop the opposing sweeper, I know it was my own fault for not playing better, and not because I guessed wrong.
 
To sum this up, Team Preview was created to make the metagame a prediction game, and not a guessing game...

This is to eliminate the fact that noobs can get away with a win 50% of the time, and actually leveled the metagame up from being casual to professional.

The metagame has extremely evolved itself such that you need thousands of info to understand the game just to become a mediocre gamer. The addition of Team preview shows this. Luck-based wins (except due to hax) are eliminated. You need to think and predict about your opponent sets/moves/type of teams instead of thinking on what poke he has.
 
Oh no I misread the poll and voted on it. Now Nix is gonna kill me or something ;_;

But basically, everyone has summed it up: Team Preview has changed the metagame from largely a guessing game to more centred on skill and prediction, which I think is a change for the better in anyone's opinion
 
I think that anyone who thinks that leads no longer exist is wrong. Leads exist, but they just take a longer view. I would say the modification would be 'lead strategies still exist.'

I quite like team preview as it eases the selection of sacrifices and reduces the number of mistakes made due to lack of information.

I would argue that while it makes prediction more tempting (as you have more info) it absolutely does not change prediction to something more than a guessing game. Your opponent has all the same information as you do, so prediction is still a fiction.
 
team preview is just really... different, it made pokemon a different game. it's very noticeable when you play a gen V game then try to play a gen IV game and end up forgetting to predict because you can't see your opponents pokemon.

it does make it incredibly easy to play around lesser opponents though, and makes the double switch game more fun :)
 
Team Preview is good now i'm used to it, but there isn't team preview on IR battles, but i feel team preview was bad for Zoroark, if he was introduced Gen 4 he might of been OU because of his suprise value, but it is a needed for the vast amount of threats this gen, it allows to form a game plan from the off.
 
Use some periods, man! >.>

The Pokemon that benefit from Team Preview are obviously those that can run a variety of sets; not just offensive or defensive, but both. An example of this is ParaShuffler Dragonite. It is easy to convince your opponent that you run DD + Outrage or mixed, then just go ahead and use either Thunder Wave (if they don't have a Ground-type to absorb it.... thanks Team Preview!) or Substitute and go to town phazing, Roosting, and spreading status to those who hate it. Rain is the perfect environment in which to bluff mixed, as Dragonite won't be taking residual damage from sand and can keep reactivating Multiscale with Roost, all while hiding behind a substitute.
 
I think Team Preview is ok, it makes means you need to know the metagame well to play well (even more so.) I think it pushes Pokemon with multiple good sets forward, like Rotom-W or Scizor. I don't feel that the element of surprise is spoiled. Just use banded thorn if you like the kick out of it, or something else. I don't see much problem with it. (Then again, I didn't play 4th gen, so I might not know what you guys are talking about.)
 
i simply don't like team preview. i liked it better when you didn't know if your opponent had a counter to something, so scouts were useful. i definitely liked the surprise better.
 
Entere said:
I think Team Preview is ok, it makes means you need to know the metagame well to play well (even more so.) I think it pushes Pokemon with multiple good sets forward, like Rotom-W or Scizor. I don't feel that the element of surprise is spoiled. Just use banded thorn if you like the kick out of it, or something else. I don't see much problem with it. (Then again, I didn't play 4th gen, so I might not know what you guys are talking about.)
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BW is the first generation to force team preview (not including stuff like Stadium for 64 and I think PBR) for competitive battling, so you really didn't know anything about your opponent's team when the battle started, nor could you rearrange yours at the beginning. In DPP, it was safe to use a dedicated "suicide lead" which is a fast but frail Pokemon who could set up Stealth Rock or Taunt opposing leads, or use a bulkier lead such as Metagross. From that point you could phaze or scout with various U-turn users to familiarize yourself with your opponent's team. It was "fun" in a sense but it took that many extra turns to figure out what you can now do on turn 0.
 
If I see more posts without significant content and substantiation of that content I'm going to start infracting.

An aspect of Team Preview that isn't as pronounced (read: not as easy) in Generation IV as it is in Generation V is an immediate game plan. With Team Preview it is quite easy to determine which Pokemon can get in the way of one of your sweepers, and also identify which Pokemon you need to scout the set for before going for a sweep with that Pokemon. As an example, most players are not going to go for a Volcarona sweep while they don't know what set an opponent's Landorus is carrying, and will instead focus on obtaining that piece of information during the game, and if it is indeed Scarfed, formulating a plan to eliminate it. If the opponent also has a Heatran, then you have to focus on removing that, as well as the opponent's Landorus should it be Scarved, before maneuvering into a position for Volcarona to set up. In the same example, offensive LO Hidden Power Ground Volcarona gives an advantage over the opponent since they do not know Volcarona's set yet. In this case another element of information-seeking is present in the match, as the Volcarona player must ascertain whether or not Heatran is carrying an Air Balloon (which is far easier to find out than most other sets), find a way to pop the Balloon without telegraphing Hidden Power Ground (such as by not popping it with Volcarona on the switch but instead double switching to something that puts Heatran in an awkward situation, such as Dragonite). Unless, of course, you want to telegraph the Hidden Power Ground to lure in Landorus to be OHKOed by Fire Blast.

Which is another difference between Generations IV and V: Blind guessing. Early on in Gen IV matches most players will be carrying out some sort of early-game plan to get ahead while neither player knows the other's Pokemon yet; as an example, Spikestacking. It is once you have learned the identity of all of your opponent's Pokemon that you can put a real game plan into action, but not before a substantial amount of guess work. In Gen V all of that information is handed to you, but in Gen IV you really have to think critically to figure out what your next best move would be. Should I go for Dragon Dance with Dragonite? I do have Fire Blast to hit his Skarmory, but does he have Scarf Flygon or a Mamoswine? He already has a Skarmory though, so how likely is it that he has Mamoswine? And so on and so forth. That's, in my opinion, the real skill of Generation IV: determining how your opponent has chosen to cover the weaknesses you have noticed so far. Generation V's skill is determined from how well you can read your opponent and how they will read you. I wouldn't say one skill is better than the other (or equal, either, contradictory though that might be). They're just... different types of skill, just like the two generations are different.
 
Without Team Preview I think Wobbuffet would be Uber again and Zoroark Suspect.

I played few Uber battles in 4th gen and Wobbuffet was one of the more fearsome pokemon ever. Tickle to walls and switch to a Scizor and Encoring non-damaging moves in order to obtain a free turn, but the fact most important is, your opponent could use it when he/she wants to eliminate the pokemon he/she wants. Even with Team Preview I think Wobbuffet is pretty underrated.
Of course Scarf pokemon without U-turn are going to die in Wobbuffet hands.

Zoroark is a bit scarier with Team Preview, but without it, it would be Suspect because it would overcentralizating too much. Doing crazy desicions like to hit Ghost types with a Fighting move if Zoroark is hidden back. At least there are entry damage clues, but too annoying to check it in ALL the battles if Zoroark would be in the team of the opponent disguised into.

Any more opinions I have have been already covered. Even when I discover few days later of the release of the games Team Preview was obligatory this gen and there is no option to not to use it, I though it was a terrible idea. But playing this metagame, like most of you, I think it is one of the bests tools to include to this metagame, more information, less "I will throw Shadow Ball if the foe has a Gengar" and less boring predictable "Suicide leads"
 
i feel team preview is directly or indirectly the cause of the volt-turn tactics that pretty much dominate OU right now.

i still prefer the days of being able to keep your threats as a ace in a hole deal rather than my foes knowing about it.

Was much more enjoyable of a game to me.

it also pretty much is a reason why more people forfeiting now than before.

before you didn't know you were screwed until the big threat was revealed.

personally would had vouched for the bans that would had happened without team preview.
 
While I'm a bit nostalgic about the old D\P\Pt gameplay and I was not a fan of team preview when B\W came out, I think that it has made the game a lot more competitive.

Knowing your opponent's team when the battle begins forces you to play a lot of mind games and to save key member of your teams in order to win the match. While team preview has basically removed the "surprise factor" from the game (though you can still catch your opponent offguard with unconventional sets) it emphasized the tactical component of competitive Pokemon.

I also like how the chance to re-arrange your party has removed any sort of pre-defined lead match up (especially now that Deoxys-S is gone).
 
Yeah im with Haunter on this one.

I was a big fan of Empoleon in DPP so when Team Preview came along I was kinda pissed that any of those late game sweeps were a fuckload harder to pull off. Still, Scouting was a big part of Gen 4, and with Gen 5 Team Preview, you basically fast foward to knowing your opponents team and setting up that game plan a good 12 turns earlier than you could in DPP.

After playing around with Team Preview, I must say that I do very much enjoy the amount of tactical thinking you can do now in advance. In my opinion, there are greater opportunities for mindgames and predictive attacks. For example, water types such as Starmie can easily just throw out an Ice Beam to smack a Celebi switch in wheras in Gen 4 this kinda of thing was harder to pull off. Team Preview is awesome in that both you and your opponent (provided you both are switched on and thinking hard) know each others game plan and how to execute your own plan while preventing your opponents. Heck, I have had battles when the first 6 moves have just been my opponent and I, double switching around to finally gain a favourable position.

tl;dr

Agreeing with Haunter 100%, Team Preview is excellent for competitive pokemon in general due to the high level thinking it encourages.
 
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still prefer the days of being able to keep your threats as a ace in a hole deal rather than my foes knowing about it.

Was much more enjoyable of a game to me.
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this i agree with. how does knowing the six pokemon make it more competitive? it only gives you information you used to find out the hard way; now its given to you before you even select your lead. back in gen 4, you run into ttar/tran/jirachi, and you can only guess what they switching in to counter your ground/fighting move; whether that be rotom-w/dragonite/flygon. now, it has become a 50/50 guessing game: do i select outrage or earthquake?!

without team preview, a huge reason as to why pokemon that werent as common could still make an impact was obvious - their hidden identity. file>team builder is more "competitive" than team preview ever will be.

it works both ways sure, but that doesnt make it more challenging/competitive; i do expect good players to keep up with trends and influence new sets to so that i dont wind up seeing landorus/scizor/rotom-w/ttar/terra on both sides of team preview... would you rather watch grass grow?

of course it was the reason for certain bans not seeing the ubers tier a little faster. but with team preview in mind, what was wrong with your own ttar + excadrill + garchomp team taking on toed + thundurus + latios? you knew what they had, and vice versa. it was whose team was better contructed and who exploited the weakness of the opposing team first to get the upperhand.

it makes it much easier to plow through opponents' teams regardless of what is available to us in the tier we play in.
 
For me the main problem I have with team preview, is that, in my opinion, it restrict the pokemon you can effectively use. This is because due to team preview, you can see the opponents team beforehand, therefore if he is using a pokemon that only has one, maybe even two effective sets, you can easily arrange your team to properly counter that given pokemon, in a way making it already, in theory, 6 vs 5 battle.

One example I really like for this argument, is Nidoking this Gen. If Nidoking had sheer force in Gen IV, he would much more effective than he is today, as even though he has only one effective set (Scarf is not very viable in OU), you could keep him concealed the whole match, just clearing and making the terrain suitable so that he could sweep later in the game.

But in Gen V, if someone sees Nidoking in Team Preview, they know he will be almost certainly be using a set of LO with boltbeam+Earthpower and probably flamethrower or Fire Blast, thus making it much easier for the opponent to appropriately manage his team counter Nidoking.

And that is why we see so many of the same teams in team preview, because it is pokemon such as Rotom-W, Landorus, Scizor, among others, that sports three or four viable sets that can be used in effectively in OU, as without the Surpise factor of an unorthodox pokemon that could potentially cause havoc if concealed, Players will normally rely on the old "Bread and Butter" pokemon to gain easy wins.
 
Team Preview didn't entirely "kill" leads. I just took the lead metagame and made it one with the rest of the game. Dedicated leads still exist and they still do their jobs very well. With Team Preview, you now don't have to choose just one Pokemon to lead with when team building and your leads can "appear to be" in any slot of your team.

The timing of this thread is a little funny to me because over the past few weeks, after seeing the havoc that Deoxys-S brought, I've been testing all the old "leads" and seeing how they still hold up with Team Preview. I can easily run down a hand-full here:


Azelf: Although the Explosion nerf hurt, Azelf still does it's job of getting SR up and can still prevent the opponent's hazards from being setup with that fast Taunt. When Azelf's put on a team of hard-hitters, after that first Taunt, your opponent might not be able to get hazards up the entire game without having to give up a Pokemon. Very much the same way that Deoxys-S was doing earlier.

Aerodactyl: Pretty much everything that can be said of Azelf can be said of Aerodactyl. "Taunt turn 1, Rocks turn 2" still works as effectively as ever so long as Magic Bounce/Coat isn't around. Funny how Team Preview actually helps remedy that issue.

Infernape: While normally a dedicated sweeper in 5th Gen, Lead Infernape still does it's job surprisingly well. No common Stealth Rocker in OU enjoys being around Infernape's Dual STABs. Just like his 4th Gen counterpart, given a Focus Sash, he can deal with those common Scarf leads like Landorus & Terrakion if need be.

Machamp: This guy is STILL a great lead. Nothing enjoys a Dynamic Punch, nothing can seem to OHKO the bastard bar SE or Weather-boosted attacks. Using Machamp is basically free damage turn 1, but with no recovery he does get picked off eventually due to his slow speed so I can see why he's not so hot right now.

Metagross: The old Occa Berry Metagross still works pretty well. Hammer Arm is a little more needed than EQ with the addition of Balloon making Heatran even more annoying, but aside from that, Meta's still a very sturdy & powerful lead letting it get SR up as well as hitting hard right afterward.

Zoroark: While not in 4th Gen, I wanted to say this. With as many people in this thread alone that say that Team Preview killed Zoroark, while it's true that Zoroark would be a lot better without it, it's really not that bad for Zoroark especially if you use it intelligently. For instance, I run a Scarf Zoroark set which almost always is disguised as Celebi but I switch the order of my ENTIRE team around so my opponent would never know who it's appearing as since Celebi & Zoroark both appear in the middle of my team in preview. Celebi encourges Scarf Landorus to stay in & U-turn, letting Zoroark OHKO it with HP Ice. Zoroark U-turning against a Rotom-W reveals if it's Scarfed or not as if it stays in, I KNOW it's Scarfed & using Volt Switch so I can go out to my Ground-type & get Rocks up for free as Rotom's forced to switch-out. You get the idea. Zoroark gains instant momentum for me.


That's just a few but honestly, the rest of the leads, anti-leads, & momentum grabbers of 4th Gen are seen in the current metagame. T-tar, Heatran, Jirachi, I mean even their lead sets are common even though there's no Lead metagame. Like I said before; Team Preview didn't hurt leads as much as you'd think. You can still run a lead and even hide it in the 3rd or 4th slot of Team Preview, but unlike 4th Gen, it's not mandatory.


With all that said, I do enjoy Team Preview just because there's too much to even dream of being prepared for this Gen. You could have counters for every top OU Pokemon and a random Scolipede would run train over you. It's not THAT bad. I play PO's DW OU and doesn't use Team Preview yet it's totally playable and fun to be honest. I prefer Standard OU but the game would still be okay without Team Preview, you'd just have to scout REALLY well to be good at it.
 
Katakiri said:
With all that said, I do enjoy Team Preview just because there's too much to even dream of being prepared for this Gen. You could have counters for every top OU Pokemon and a random Scolipede would run train over you.
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A very good post, with a single point I can expand on slightly. One of the thing's that's not often immediately obvious is that the biggest change in any generation is not some tweaked mechanic or a new move with good distribution, but that a load of new Pokémon are dumped into the metagame. In third generation, it was relatively easy to make a good guess at what an opponent's unrevealed sixth sweeper was, simply extrapolating from what was already shown, and act accordingly. You can't do that anymore, at all. There's just too much choice.
 
Scrawly said:
You can't do that anymore, at all. There's just too much choice.
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Even though there is too much, people 90% will only use the same old top 20 OU pokemon in their team, because, as I wrote in my previous post, players can now just identify the unorthodox pokemon in the other team, and plan accordingly against it, thus making it almost a 5 vs 6 game right from the start.
 
Even assuming your argument is true, that does not mean that a removal of team preview wouldn't result in an impossibly diverse metagame.
 
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