IMO Blissey is better than Chansey for one paticular reason: without Leftovers you severely compromise the ability to be a status absorber. To my surprise awhile again, taking a burn is bad news for Chansey, especially in situations where you are pressured to stay in. Burn inflicts 25% to Chansey after two turns as opposed to 12% for Blissey! Even something as mundane as paralysis causes trouble since Chansey is completely reliant on a turn in order to heal; while the small amount offered by Leftovers is enough to buy some time. Yes, you can switch out of the burn, but when you are under pressure to not to switch out (for exapmle aginsy Heatran) sometimes that oppurtunity isn't avalible.
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The answer to the ultimate question: Blissey or Chansey?
- Thread starter MMII
- Start date
Well said. I never thought it would make such a difference but Leftovers is so important. Chansey gets worn down so quickly by sandstorm and sponging random attacks...
However the most important thing for me is being able to use another attack such as Flamethrower or Ice Beam. Gengar basically gets a free switch in and sub everytime with Chansey. Flamethrower in particular is useful because it limits the amount of setting up Ferrothorn/Forretress can do.
Last gen, I used Blissey in Ubers... and it was freaking amazing. Once I heard about Eviolite Chansey, I decided to try it out. Again, in Ubers.
It works almost the same for me. The defensive boost has helped me in some tight spots, such as the occasional Ho-Oh or Zekrom... Blissey had a harder time walling those threats, and Softboiled didn't always help the most. Chansey's Wish+Protect strategy worked miracles, especially with Toxic. The only problem that I encountered was breaking Ho-Oh's Substitutes with Seismic Toss. However, the same thing happened with Blissey.
Overall, I'd choose Chansey, as the boosted Defense really helps... especially against Mewtwo's Psystrike and the occasional Psyshock from a random Lati@s, etc.
The leftovers recovery doesn't matter unless someone has a Sand team, which are very rare in Ubers, and due to the popularity of Kyogre, are quickly shut down.
It works almost the same for me. The defensive boost has helped me in some tight spots, such as the occasional Ho-Oh or Zekrom... Blissey had a harder time walling those threats, and Softboiled didn't always help the most. Chansey's Wish+Protect strategy worked miracles, especially with Toxic. The only problem that I encountered was breaking Ho-Oh's Substitutes with Seismic Toss. However, the same thing happened with Blissey.
Overall, I'd choose Chansey, as the boosted Defense really helps... especially against Mewtwo's Psystrike and the occasional Psyshock from a random Lati@s, etc.
The leftovers recovery doesn't matter unless someone has a Sand team, which are very rare in Ubers, and due to the popularity of Kyogre, are quickly shut down.
This is really the same arguement as the Stealth Rock (or other entry hazard) one and its answered the same way. How much more damage is Blissey taking from the attacks? If it's more then 6% Chansey is doing better then Blissey, burn and all (since really the burn changes nothing, they just each take an extra 12%). Also how is Heatran a threat even with burning? Unless we're talking Sun boosted Specs or something Chansey can comfortable wall most Heatran, heck Burns would actually be a good thing as it wouldn't let her be toxiced. Of course taunt would be an issue but it would kill Blissey too so no difference there... Same with Paralyze. If Chansey would die to parahax, I'm not seeing how Blissey would survive the parahax any better (either paralyzing her on the wish or the protect could prove fatal). If anything, Chansey's extra bulk gives her a "cushion" against parahax, at least as much as Blissey's leftovers.
Oh and Heatran would utterly wall a Blissey with Flamethrower/Ice Beam (really most attacks) while Chansey can kill the Heatran with Seismic Toss. Having an elemental attack has its downside too... Alot of downsides infact.
This was a question I've wanted to ask since I've seen this a few times...
How exactly does it help? Obviously the idea is that both Blissey and Rotom are in play, Rotom Volts in Scizor, Blissey Flamethrowers it, but I'm not getting how this would ever come about. Rotom would come in usually off a U-Turn from Scizor anyway so Blissey would have to switch into the U-Turn if it wanted to be "in play" in time to be there to flamethrower the Scizor when it comes back in. That doesn't seem like a something Blissey will survive doing much (nevermind Scizor going for a different move and killing Blissey on the spot or Rotom predicting and staying in to take the flamethrower easily). Adding Landorus to the mix just makes it worse as then Scizor/Landorus could just switch between themselves and force her out as both are strong enough to kill her before she can attack (and blissey's flamethrower won't do a ton to Landorus, no more then Seismic would anyway). Switching in when Rotom is in play doesn't help because you'll switch into the Volt which will leave you facing the Scizor directly, easy pickings for a Superpower (or just U-Turning out if he wants to be safe) since Scizor is faster. And then of course there is the threat of Tyranitar or Terrekion switching in instead of Scizor, taking no damage from flamethrower (both would be harder hit by Seismic) and possibly KOing with Pursuit/Superpower/Close Combat. I'm just not seeing how Flamethrower really helps here.
Of course maybe I'm just missing the obvious...
tehy
Banned deucer.
Listen, this is quite simple. Chansey beats offense better, blissey beats stall better. With stall, residual damage wears chansey down faster, but with offense, attacks beat blissey down faster. Very, very simple. As for the special attacks thing, i suppose you can use one on blissey but it needs its moves.
And yes, you're correct, murkglow. I guess it's like, rotom-w mispredicts and pumps/wisps, then volt switches away because it thinks scizor can pwn you and BAM, but TBH it always makes sense to volt switch on blissey.
And yes, you're correct, murkglow. I guess it's like, rotom-w mispredicts and pumps/wisps, then volt switches away because it thinks scizor can pwn you and BAM, but TBH it always makes sense to volt switch on blissey.
Sums up my thoughts exactly.
However, you haven't considered one pokemon: Sableye. It has access to both Knock Off AND priority Trick. Almost every Sableye you see will have one of these two moves. As a Ghost/Dark type, Seismic Toss will have no effect on it. So basically, Chansey has no chance against it other than Toxic, but Sableye generally isn't staying around long anyway. Chansey also is completely crippled by the loss of its Eviolite, and possibly (albeit to a lesser extent) by a Tricked Lagging Tail or Iron Ball. Although Sableye really can't do anything to it in return, it can and will ruin its usefulness for the rest of the game. On the other hand, Blissey suffers from few of Chansey's problems in this scenario, since losing Leftovers isn't as deadly as losing half your bulk. It can also damage Sableye in return with a coverage move if you choose to run it. Overall, in this scenario, Blissey is the clear winner.
Just my two cents, I know Sableye isn't a particularly common pokemon but it should at least be considered imo. And for the record, I almost always pick Blissey.
Edit: Sableye also gets priority Taunt, so Chaney is 100% screwed. Blissey can't do anything back at all now, but at least it's not crippled.
This is all assuming the trick is Lagging Tail or Iron Ball. 99% of tricks (most coming from Lati@s/Rotom, you know pokemon Blissey/Chansey might actually have a reason to stay in against) are going to be Choice Scarf/Specs and in those cases, yes Blissey is just as screwed. Chancey loses a third of its defenses (which doesn't leave it as far behind in stats as you're making it out to be, its stats are only 10/10/60 points less then Blissey's without Eviolite, which is a noticeable lose no doubt but hardly "crippling." Kinda like how Blissey is 100 SDef behind Chansey with Eviolite and that difference isn't "crippling" per say, she's still good) but it won't matter since both are set-up bait and soon to be dead regardless.
And its not like Sableye needs to Trick to beat either of them. Both of them are 100% useless vs Sableye (Flamethrower isn't going to do jack to Sableye with Recover, assuming Blissey herself isn't also using Seismic Toss) so both of them would switch out right away (since neither has any reason to be in vs Sableye) and not get tricked by it to begin with... So no, in reality Sableye isn't a pokemon either needs to consider. Both outright lose to it in pretty much every way possible and have no reason to stay in vs it.
And its not like Sableye needs to Trick to beat either of them. Both of them are 100% useless vs Sableye (Flamethrower isn't going to do jack to Sableye with Recover, assuming Blissey herself isn't also using Seismic Toss) so both of them would switch out right away (since neither has any reason to be in vs Sableye) and not get tricked by it to begin with... So no, in reality Sableye isn't a pokemon either needs to consider. Both outright lose to it in pretty much every way possible and have no reason to stay in vs it.
I have never ever seen a flamethrower blissey. No never. Most people (understandably) use seismic toss and I frankly don't agree with the "blissey has offenses" when its a non-stab'ed attack coming from a weak spatk. IMO stick with seismic toss. Gengar does mess you up but quite a lot more pokemon mess you up if you just have flamethrower.(heatran being one)
P.s And jellicent still defeats you if you have flamethrower and if you do not toxic it on the switch or set t-spikes.
P.s And jellicent still defeats you if you have flamethrower and if you do not toxic it on the switch or set t-spikes.
This is just plain wrong, according to usage stats 17% of sableye have trick and 5% have knock off
Sableye also wipes the floor with either mon anyway, with taunt and wow
Unless you are running some weird offensive blissey, in which case there is no point in making a comparison between chansey and blissey as they now fill completely different roles.
The trick is to put enough Spe evs so that Blissey can outspeed CB Scizor and hit him before he U-turns out.
So the idea is to spend 84 evs in speed minimum (or more: maybe 92 since putting 4 or 8 points in speed isn't uncommon for scizor, never mind the rarer scizors who invest more who you will never outrun) and using a move that leaves you walled vs anything not 4x weak to it (not to mention rain...) in an attempt to kill scizor... Hopefully* (never mind them switching Landeros/Tyranitar/Terrekion or the like in instead)... And those 84+ speed evs are a significant chunk you're no longer putting into defenses which is just further widening the gap in defenses chansey and blissey have... Yeah, I'm not seeing it but then that's just me.
*Also is it a sure fired OHKO? I guess I'll just look the calcs up...
Edit: Ok the smogon calc says Flamethrower is a 75.8% - 89.8% hit on the standard CB Scizor. So even SR damage doesn't clinch the OHKO most of the time. =/
*Also is it a sure fired OHKO? I guess I'll just look the calcs up...
Edit: Ok the smogon calc says Flamethrower is a 75.8% - 89.8% hit on the standard CB Scizor. So even SR damage doesn't clinch the OHKO most of the time. =/
Yeah you will need atleast 2 stealth rock hits to succure a kill, which isn't that hard since they will be switching like crazy anyway. Ive used a speedy Blissey with flamethrower and it isn't that bad, I often find that people will directly switch into Scizor as a counter for Blissey even if out of a volt turn, its pretty useful, but you need to then have a heatran counter somewhere else (unless you run flamethrower / toxic /seismic toss / softboiled for everything).
I don't see myself ever investing that heavily in speed for blissey just to ~maybe~ land a hit on scizor. I've used flamethrower blissey before and I like it, but I find it to be more useful to just wait for the opponent to switch scizor or ferrothorn in on the flamethrower.
The difference there has to do with your opponent's move choice not Sandstorm. The same situation applies in non-Sandstorm environments, so the "Use Blissey because of Sandstorm" belief is still a myth. On top of that, I already calculated a use of Protect for every other turn which Chansey has the benefit of the choice of not doing so in Sandstorm or can even run Softboiled which makes her, on the contrary, the better choice for Sandstorm teams. If your opponent has chosen to use a non attacking move in spite of Chansey's/Blissey's Toxic, then it isn't good news for either of them. (Or it is just a nub who isn't taking advantage of that every other turn Protect) Lastly, switch-outs mean a free opportunity to heal off any critical passive damage. I think the general problem is that it is easier to see the effect of a Lefties heal at the end of every turn versus a general reduction of attack damage.
@Murkglow: Sorry, I meant the sentence in my original post where I implied that only Blissey gets Wish.
As someone who has played Stall for over a year, testing both Chansey and Blissey, here's what I got.
All of the posts regarding Gengar hold little to no water if you are actually intelligent when using Chansey. As long as Chansey has Softboiled, SubSplit Gengar will NOT always defeat Chansey. PP stalling Focus Blast is quite easy, and it becomes simple when regarding the 70% hit ratio. Almost every battle with Chansey I've been in vs. a SubSplit Gengar I've just PP stalled Focus Blast, and then bring in something to resist Shadow Ball and go from there.
Another note on Gengar is that a good 75% of them that I see are SubDisable, which screws Bliss over anyways. Well, according to the above logic it screws over Bliss, when in reality Bliss can PP stall either Gengar just as easily as Chansey can (and with WishSoftboiled it's not even a competition vs. SubDisable Gar).
That being said, residual damage is very important in the long run, any player will tell you that. However, the sheer bulk of Chansey EASILY outweighs the momentum you might gain from Blissey.
HOWEVER, a big thing here is that, on most stall teams (and by that I mean, yknow, all stall teams) a dedicated Spinner is used. A good chunk of Stalls are weatherless, sun, or rain, with only a few being hail or sand. If you are running Chansey on a non-damaging weather stall team, it will FAR outclass Bliss.
A big thing is that people often overlook just HOW much bulk Chansey gets. It's the difference between Psyshock 2HKOing and not 2HKOing. Even very strong physical hits (+4 Landorus EQ out of sand) can be taken by Chansey. Blissey may have the ability to abuse WishTect better, but with all the sand flying around, this is even less useful.
Overall, even without spin support, I found Chans to be more useful than Bliss due to it's staggeringly good physical bulk, and the fact that both defenses can be boosted so much with Eviolite (max def/sp.d is spectacular).
So I'm in the Chansey crowd.
All of the posts regarding Gengar hold little to no water if you are actually intelligent when using Chansey. As long as Chansey has Softboiled, SubSplit Gengar will NOT always defeat Chansey. PP stalling Focus Blast is quite easy, and it becomes simple when regarding the 70% hit ratio. Almost every battle with Chansey I've been in vs. a SubSplit Gengar I've just PP stalled Focus Blast, and then bring in something to resist Shadow Ball and go from there.
Another note on Gengar is that a good 75% of them that I see are SubDisable, which screws Bliss over anyways. Well, according to the above logic it screws over Bliss, when in reality Bliss can PP stall either Gengar just as easily as Chansey can (and with WishSoftboiled it's not even a competition vs. SubDisable Gar).
That being said, residual damage is very important in the long run, any player will tell you that. However, the sheer bulk of Chansey EASILY outweighs the momentum you might gain from Blissey.
HOWEVER, a big thing here is that, on most stall teams (and by that I mean, yknow, all stall teams) a dedicated Spinner is used. A good chunk of Stalls are weatherless, sun, or rain, with only a few being hail or sand. If you are running Chansey on a non-damaging weather stall team, it will FAR outclass Bliss.
A big thing is that people often overlook just HOW much bulk Chansey gets. It's the difference between Psyshock 2HKOing and not 2HKOing. Even very strong physical hits (+4 Landorus EQ out of sand) can be taken by Chansey. Blissey may have the ability to abuse WishTect better, but with all the sand flying around, this is even less useful.
Overall, even without spin support, I found Chans to be more useful than Bliss due to it's staggeringly good physical bulk, and the fact that both defenses can be boosted so much with Eviolite (max def/sp.d is spectacular).
So I'm in the Chansey crowd.
I just thought I should chime in here, to note that Blissey CAN (to an extent) dismantle Volt Turn. This is because standard Wish Support Blissey only takes - believe it or not, do the calc yourself - 47.9% - 56.44% from Scizor's Choice Band U-turn. So, say you come in on Rotom-W as it Volt Switches into Scizor. Then, all you need do is Protect to scout the Choiced attack, and if Scizor attempts to U-turn, you can just stay in and use Wish, in preparation to heal after taking the hit. Furthermore, obviously Blissey takes far less from Rotom-W's Volt Switch and Landorus' U-turn, essentially forcing your opponent to lock themselves into a non-switching attack. Of course, this is all assuming Choiced pokemon (it's by far the most common though), and I'm assuming that you will have had time during the battle to scout movesets (i.e., find out if it's actually a Swords Dance Scizor etc).
It should be noted that, naturally, Blissey loses to Scizor 1v1, but if used correctly, it CAN block the Volt Turn cycle. Chansey can do this too, but this strategy only works with the Wish Support set, as Protect is crucial. Thus, Blissey does have the advantage of being able to Protect stall for Leftovers recovery, which is an advantage, but... eh.
It should be noted that, naturally, Blissey loses to Scizor 1v1, but if used correctly, it CAN block the Volt Turn cycle. Chansey can do this too, but this strategy only works with the Wish Support set, as Protect is crucial. Thus, Blissey does have the advantage of being able to Protect stall for Leftovers recovery, which is an advantage, but... eh.
Yeah with maximum defense. I bit off topic but this is the blissey/chansey thread so whatever; I never run maximum defense on Blissey or Chansey, I honestly don't see what it does aside from losing to special attackers easier. A spread of 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spdef bold takes pursuits fine and takes special hits like a boss on Blissey. Calm 116 HP / 252 Def / 140 SDef is good on Chansey to take 2 hits from Laios's psychoshock always.
I thought Fire Blast was the standard move for anti-Scizor sets.
I remember when Blissey first came into existance, people would never, ever use attacking moves (like Flamethrower, etc.) on it, apart from Seismic Toss.
The first time it started getting popular was in Generation III, a while after I joined Smogon, a Gengar moveset where it would use the sub-punch combo (nobody uses this anymore, but it was pretty popular in Advance) and Hidden Power Ice started getting popular, and Blissey (who was one of the most popular Pokemon in the game back then) was an easy Pokemon to switch-in to set up your Subsitute and start Focus Punching.
As a result of that Gengar set getting very popular, people realized that the base 95 elemental moves on Blissey could actually break Gengar's subsitututes, which is the first time I ever heard of Blissey using elemental moves. I think people realized they weren't THAT weak. However, back in Generation III I remember the Blissey almost always ended up using Ice Beam rather than Flamethrower, probably because it hit Salamence, Dugtrio, Claydol, etc. harder.
I prefer Blissey simply because she can use Charm which is a hugely underrated move on her. By default she lures in physical attackers and halving their attack on the switch puts the momentum firmly in your favour. I would reccomend that if you're using Blissey on a balanced team you give Charm a go because Charm Blissey makes for an excellent transition Pokemon.
Yes, I realise Chansey learns Charm too but it's illegal with Seismic Toss so, in using it, you basically condemn yourself to having no attacking move whatsoever. Blissey on the other hand can use it alongside elemental attacks (Flamethrower goes particularly well with Charm because it hits most of the Spikers who like to come in on the eggs - another problem I have with Chansey).
Yes, I realise Chansey learns Charm too but it's illegal with Seismic Toss so, in using it, you basically condemn yourself to having no attacking move whatsoever. Blissey on the other hand can use it alongside elemental attacks (Flamethrower goes particularly well with Charm because it hits most of the Spikers who like to come in on the eggs - another problem I have with Chansey).
Thanks,again, for all of the feedback I'm going to try to reply to everybody in one post.
After Note: Just checked the Smogon Strategy Pokedex and the Blissey's Wish Passing set dropped to second in the set lists. Chansey's is still first though.
According to the January 2012 Usage Statistics only 16.4% of Blisseys use Flamthrower where as Seismic Toss is the most popular move with a 71.8% usage. This pretty much throws the "Flamthrower makes Blissey better" argument out the window. I'm not trying to say that Flamethrower Blissey is useless or that Chansey is always the better choice, just that if you are the 83.6% of Blissey users not using Flamethrower you should make the switch to Chansey. Sandstorm/Passive Damage is a myth and the damage gap is just too big for a few extra free lefties heals outside of the already included Protect spam to rob Chansey of her superiority.
The calcs I posted were a comparison of the same popular Wish passing set used for both Chansey and Blissey (Seismic Toss, Toxic, Wish, Protect). I already included a Protect spam for every other turn in the final damage and remaining HP sections. All that to say that yes Chansey can do the exact same thing and better, too.
After Note: Just checked the Smogon Strategy Pokedex and the Blissey's Wish Passing set dropped to second in the set lists. Chansey's is still first though.
I didn't do very many calcs but I know that Chansey can wall +6 Lefties Celebi with the usual max defence set. Seeing as she has access to Toxic stall I don't think more special bulk is needed.
(I'm quoting you but the response goes to everybody suggesting Flamethrower)
According to the January 2012 Usage Statistics only 16.4% of Blisseys use Flamthrower where as Seismic Toss is the most popular move with a 71.8% usage. This pretty much throws the "Flamthrower makes Blissey better" argument out the window. I'm not trying to say that Flamethrower Blissey is useless or that Chansey is always the better choice, just that if you are the 83.6% of Blissey users not using Flamethrower you should make the switch to Chansey. Sandstorm/Passive Damage is a myth and the damage gap is just too big for a few extra free lefties heals outside of the already included Protect spam to rob Chansey of her superiority.