The CAP Kitchen: Non-Competitive Discussion Goes Here

Also, now that CAP LC is out, I made party icons for all of the CAP pre-evos. :D

Here's the full icon sheet with every CAP up to Kerfluffle (even the unfinished pre-evos), separated by generation (please full-view):


Edit: Updated Scratchet and Monohm according to KrazyCake's feedback. :)
Cap lc exists now? since when, tis absolutely amazing.
 
So with encouragement of the discord, I've decided to sculpt some sculptures of capmons I've made here
In order:
1: Naviathan calm mind
2: Naviathan dragon dance
3: Pyroak
4: Crucibelle(mega)
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I would like to bring up a couple points about flavour, realism and other non-competitive aspects of CAPs.

I am certainly not the first to notice how bloated CAP BSTs tend to be. Actual, non-special Pokémon very rarely exceed 535, a situation not shared by about two thirds of current CAPs. This, while unrealistic, is a consequence of the CAPs' inherently competitive and specialized design and I guess cannot be helped much. This also applies to some odd movepool choices.

There is however a characteristic which is often unrealistic without any need to be such, as it has no competitive impact whatsoever. That is, the internal organization of level-up movepools.

- Actual Pokémon tend to follow patterns in the way the learn moves, such as every 4 levels, every 3-4-5 levels in a recurring loop, and so on. The intervals of CAP Pokémon tend to be way more random, sometimes with oddly large gaps. This isn't really unprecedented, as the level-up movepools of several G6 Pokémon appear similarly random (including Chespin which has a huge 9-level gap between 18 and 27); this randomness might be a result of in-game considerations, however.

- Most moves are learnt by real Pokémon in a variedly fixed range of levels. For example, on average Fake Out is an early move (never after level 22), while Wring Out is among the last moves a Pokémon learns (never under 37); yet Kitsunoh learns Fake Out at 35 and Revenankh (pre-update) learned it at 9.

- Finally, CAP movesets tend to make little sense when compared to their pre-evolutions; for example Scratchet's levels are wildly different from Tomohawk's (which make even less sense on their own). Most importantly, when actual Pokémon evolve by level in most cases the levels at which they learn moves are consistently delayed, the usual delay being 1 level for the first move after the minimum evolution level, 2 levels for the seconds, and so on; some Pokémon (such ar Mareanie) get higher delays (e.g. increasing by 2/3 instead of 1), while some get no delays at all. This is not as consistent for CAPs, mainly because the pre-evolutions are always designed later and whoever makes the movepool has to abide to the precedent set by the evolved form.

I do think all of this is somewhat of a problem, flavour-wise. Encouraging those who submit movepools to have a look at how actual movepools work would be nice, but the pre-evolution problem still stands. The main issue, I think, is that the evolution line is not designed as a unit. TM and tutor moves pose no problems as they can be just removed from the pre-evolution's movepool, so this only applies to level-up (and possibly egg) moves. I could see two solutions:

- Design the level-up movepool of a full evolution line in one shot. This would be the most consistent outcome, however it would create logistic problems as the very existence of pre-evolutions is decided later in the process, and mandating it earlier would be burdensome.
- Design the whole thing as usual (final form only); then, in the pre-evolution stage, allow for slight shuffling of the final form's levels to account for delays and evolution moves (the new G7 mechanic). No new moves of any kind would be allowed to be added at this stage.

(Of course all of this has no competitive impact whatsoever and CAPs are not actually meant to be programmed in a real Pokémon-styled game, so none of this has to be actually followed nor implemented or anything; I just like consistency.)

A more meaningful thing I wanted to propose is including universal TM/tutor moves by default, whether they are included in the movepool submissions or not, unless there are competitive/flavour reasons to not include them. This would solve odd cased like Aurumoth not getting Snore and Cyclohm not getting Swagger pre-update, while not disqualifying valid movepools which somehow forgot a universal move.

As an unrelated note, would it be possible to add Pokédex entries to the CAP pages on-site since in most cases they exist but are buried deep in the process archive?
 
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HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Overall, almost all of your critiques have already been addressed in modern CAP.

I am certainly not the first to notice how bloated CAP BSTs tend to be. Actual, non-special Pokémon very rarely exceed 535, a situation not shared by about two thirds of current CAPs. This, while unrealistic, is a consequence of the CAPs' inherently competitive and specialized design and I guess cannot be helped much. This also applies to some odd movepool choices.
The BST of OU mons are much higher than the BST of just the average joe Pokemon. OU is full of 600 and 570 BST mons and many of the mons with lower-end BST have abilities that skew the power of one of their stats anyway. And you yourself note, we are a competitive project, so if we're going to compete with the competitive scene without resorting to broken stat-altering abilities, then usually a higher than 535 BST is needed.

Actual Pokémon tend to follow patterns in the way the learn moves, such as every 4 levels, every 3-4-5 levels in a recurring loop, and so on. The intervals of CAP Pokémon tend to be way more random, sometimes with oddly large gaps. This isn't really unprecedented, as the level-up movepools of several G6 Pokémon appear similarly random (including Chespin which has a huge 9-level gap between 18 and 27); this randomness might be a result of in-game considerations, however.
As someone who has both submitted for and led moves stages in gen6, I can tell you for a fact that a number of people take level up patterns very seriously. Not every submitter follows them, but many do and many modern cap movepools have won with level up move patterns.

- Finally, CAP movesets tend to make little sense when compared to their pre-evolutions; for example Scratchet's levels are wildly different from Tomohawk's (which make even less sense on their own). Most importantly, when actual Pokémon evolve by level in most cases the levels at which they learn moves are consistently delayed, the usual delay being 1 level for the first move after the minimum evolution level, 2 levels for the seconds, and so on; some Pokémon (such ar Mareanie) get higher delays (e.g. increasing by 2/3 instead of 1), while some get no delays at all. This is not as consistent for CAPs, mainly because the pre-evolutions are always designed later and whoever makes the movepool has to abide to the precedent set by the evolved form.

I do think all of this is somewhat of a problem, flavour-wise. Encouraging those who submit movepools to have a look at how actual movepools work would be nice, but the pre-evolution problem still stands. The main issue, I think, is that the evolution line is not designed as a unit. TM and tutor moves pose no problems as they can be just removed from the pre-evolution's movepool, so this only applies to level-up (and possibly egg) moves. I could see two solutions:

- Design the level-up movepool of a full evolution line in one shot. This would be the most consistent outcome, however it would create logistic problems as the very existence of pre-evolutions is decided later in the process, and mandating it earlier would be burdensome.
- Design the whole thing as usual (final form only); then, in the pre-evolution stage, allow for slight shuffling of the final form's levels to account for delays and evolution moves (the new G7 mechanic). No new moves of any kind would be allowed to be added at this stage.
I've witnessed a number of main CAP movepool submissions have a "gap zone" during the change in the level up pattern intending this to be a evolution zone. It does happen. The problem, of course, is that doing such a thing in a main cap movepool is a guessing game since prevos aren't guaranteed. Ultimately, however, CAPmons are a server product and trying to shift levels to match a prevo and evo really isn't that big of a concern. As you mentioned yourself, even some of gamefreak's mons get no dealys at all.

A more meaningful thing I wanted to propose is including universal TM/tutor moves by default, whether they are included in the movepool submissions or not, unless there are competitive/flavour reasons to not include them. This would solve odd cased like Aurumoth not getting Snore and Cyclohm not getting Swagger pre-update, while not disqualifying valid movepools which somehow forgot a universal move.
Once again, modern CAP does take this very seriously and universal moves are usually required. The examples you're refferring to are very old and have been fixed with the updates anyway.

Really, I think you are looking at the very old CAPmons and using their logic to build a picture of the current CAP rules. However, CAP has changed a lot over time and your points have largely already been addressed and incorporated into the CAP process for quite some time already.
 
On November 27th, 10 years ago, CAP was created, CAP is 10 years old everyone. Hard to believe. I thought CAP deserved something special so i made some birthday versions of the CAP mons with a huge help of Garbagery (give him some love, lots of it) who also made lots of then aswell. We both worked together and got feedback from others on the CAP discord ti create these babies. Will these be evee used? Probably not and it saddens me but it was fun making them.
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Syclant is supposed to be ice frosting
Revenankh us gift wrap with a boe tie and black rings kinda representing racecars
Pyroak is a flower celebration
Yo yo Fidget with them beats
Stratagem really has a strategy for making cakes.
Arghonaut sure loves being a kid again, even wrapped his hook
Kitsunoh sure does love mask
Cakeloholm, Yummy!
Coilsoil sure does love hats
Krilo loves cake, and being cooked...
Voodoom popped its balloon D:
Tomo the clown!
Necturna sure loves wearing dresses
Mollux loves hats aswell
Aurumoth loves being painted by preschool children
Malconda the roller coaster!
Cawmodore sure dressed up fancy
Volkraken brought balloons!
Woah is that pizzamanta? Oh wait better not eat that
Bounce House!
What's thr gift?
Someone loves too cosplay!
I also want to say thank you to Quanyails as she was also a reason why i continued to work on this. Me and Garbagery will make a cap 23 birthday sprite when it comes out
 
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On November 27th, 10 years ago, CAP was created, CAP is 10 years old everyone. Hard to believe. I thought CAP deserved something special so i made some birthday versions of the CAP mons with a huge help of Garbagery (give him some love, lots of it) who also made lots of then aswell. We both worked together and got feedback from others on the CAP discord ti create these babies. Will these be evee used? Probably not and it saddens me but it was fun making them.
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Syclant is supposed to be ice frosting
Revenankh us gift wrap with a boe tie and black rings kinda representing racecars
Pyroak is a flower celebration
Yo yo Fidget with them beats
Stratagem really has a strategy for making cakes.
Arghonaut sure loves being a kid again, even wrapped his hook
Kitsunoh sure does love mask
Cakeloholm, Yummy!
Coilsoil sure does love hats
Krilo loves cake, and being cooked...
Voodoom popped its balloon D:
Tomo the clown!
Necturna sure loves wearing dresses
Mollux loves hats aswell
Aurumoth loves being painted by preschool children
Malconda the roller coaster!
Cawmodore sure dressed up fancy
Volkraken brought balloons!
Woah is that pizzamanta? Oh wait better not eat that
Bounce House!
What's thr gift?
Someone loves too cosplay!
I also want to say thank you to Quanyails as she was also a reason why i continued to work on this. Me and Garbagery will make a cap 23 birthday sprite when it comes out
kerfluffle is a REBEL going full halloween to someone's birthday

cute stuff by the way
 

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