The Current State of ORAS OU

[AM]

Where We Stand At This Point In Time:

Discussion between the OU council are at this point focused on circulating issues amongst the community in regards to potential suspect applicable elements. The specifics of which elements have been, varied, depending on the players and communities involved that address the council with its individuals members and the council as a whole. Of the discussion points these are right now the following that are on the table as potential suspects that warrant further discussion in what we hope will be the more invested OU community at large, both high level ladder and tournament players.

These are extremely short reasonings as to why they're being considered that obviously doesn't emulate the entire picture when taking into account their individual and combined impact on the tier. Please consider this before replying, reading, and discussing in this thread.

Potential Candidates:

Hoopa-Unbound:

Pros:

• Ability to strongly impair defensive and defensively inclined balance archetypes.
• Coverage options provides it the necessary tools to pick and choose what it wants to support for itself and or team-mates, with lack of definitive switch ins to counteract it for these archetypes mentioned above.
• Extremely high offensive presence coupled in with its ability to hold an Item to supplement it while sporting the second point above makes its implementation have a very low opportunity cost, having a Pokemon sporting the prowess equal to many of the higher caliber Pokemon.

Cons:

• Matchup it excels at by itself can be strongly focused on which Item it holds, with Life Orb having difficulty to contend with the majority of offense, while Choice Scarf as one example mitigates its matchup with more defensive components.
• Prone to strong priority users, coupled in with its frailer defensive side. This makes it susceptible to many Pursuit users and faster users of U-Turn, thus creating a loss of momentum for the player utilizing Hoopa-Unbound.
• No defining resistances, with vulnerability to all forms of hazards and status effects, which can prove to make getting Hoopa-Unbound on the field easier said than done in many circumstances.

Manaphy:

Pros:

• Tail Glow and its access to viable coverage options provides it the necessary power to certify itself as one of the premiere wall-breakers, forcing most answers to it being heavily inclined offense, creating a large constraint in team-building.
• The presence of the first point paves the way to dictate the direction of team-building and battling in what some players have deemed to be in an unhealthy direction for the ORAS OU meta-game.
• Has enough defensive prowess and support tools to mitigate its matchup against most would be answers to it. Rain Dance coupled in with Hydration to eliminate defensive components with ease and removing status ailment, lure options such as Psychic to remove Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss as two primary examples.

Cons:

• Weak immediate power without Tail Glow supplementing it, necessitating a boost to maintain its consistency.
• Matchup against the tier can be often times move reliant. Move reliant in having the necessary tools along with a boost to break down certain checks to Manaphy, Ice, Bug, or Ghost coverage to break Celebi as one example.
• Due to the lack of direct offensive capacities in power and speed, Manaphy is certainly manageable, as it's reflected by the amount of Offense in the tier. Most Balance also often carry at least one Pokemon faster than Manaphy to check it reasonably well (Lati@s, Raikou, Tornadus-T, etc).

Shadow Tag:

Pros:

• Shadow Tags concept of removing the element of switching allows the user to substantially remove counter-play and freedom of choice, valued aspects of the game amongst many community members who have suggested Shadow Tag to be considered.
• Strongly discourages the use of passive defensive elements prone to the trapping abilities of Shadow Tag, with said defensive elements being key to the tiers natural response to the meta-game.

Cons:

• Little to no usage in the Tournament environment, displaying its lack of viability and consistency in higher level play outside of ladder.
• Shadow Tag users, primarily Gothitelle and Wobbuffet who are the viable offenders of Shadow Tag in OU, can be deadweight at times based on match-ups and the presence of faster and stronger opposing forces.

Goal of this thread:

Civilized and logical discussion about these suspect points specifically, nothing more nothing less. The OU Council is putting strong emphasis on primarily high level OU players to be discussing this. We don't want to read "two cent" posts, theorymon, posts related to suspecting something else, the suspect process, or opinions by players who don't have a clear grasp of OU in regards to its higher level environment. This thread was fostered in the hopes that a place can be provided to discuss these controversial topics, which up until now there was no area to do openly do this, and come to a consensus on the communities opinions on the matters at hand. We'll be following the ruling criteria for posting in any sort of suspect thread regarding OU for this thread as well, in addition to posting in Policy Review in general. These include the following that cater to OU suspect discussion specifically.

Rules for posting in this thread:
1) no one liners nor uninformed posts;
2) no discussion on other potential suspects;
3) no discussion on the Suspect process;
4) you're required to make respectful posts;
5) you're required to read this thread before posting.
Users that take it upon themselves to do exactly what I just told them not to do will be handed down an Infraction. No exceptions.

This bolded portion was provided in the suspect etiquette thread as well but I'm putting it specifically here because I can't stress this enough. If you don't adhere to the bold your post is at liberty to be removed and or infracted. Making this clear now so there isn't any sort of confusion for the duration of this discussion.

Conclusion:

These have been considered some of the elements being brought up on a more regular basis to the council warranting discussion and as such we will be providing an avenue to discuss them here amongst the OU community, with emphasis on its high ladder and tournament level players. In the long run we will be considering and reviewing the meta-game, community input, and its natural progression to view other potential suspects but at this very point in time we want to read and discuss these candidates and if whether or not they warrant further looking into, which at that point would be a legitimate suspect test.

Make sure you are experienced and strongly acquainted with ORAS OU before posting in this thread.

- OU Council

 

[PDC]

hmm ok

on hoopa: as a balance player myself i agree that hoopa itself is pretty menacing to face. hoopa is similar to BW hydreigon in that it has a very efficient way of breaking stall due to it's very solid coverage and great power, and just enough speed so that it manages to outrun most balance teams pretty easily. it has the ability to act as a mixed sweeper and due to it getting gunk shot, it can break through the normal balance failsafe, clefable. vs balance hoopa is a very strong pokemon which if it has the right moves, can wreck havoc a decent amount of the time, but i don't think it is as incredible as some people claim. especially considering that it is forced to choose only 4 moves to get the best coverage possible with, and missing one could mean it gets walled. hoopa also hates additional hazards outside of SR, especially when paired with life orb, so it isn't impossible to play around either.

but vs offense....eh. hoopa was hyped up to be some sort of monster who destroys everything, but that isn't how i see it when it is put into practice. on the first few days of hoopa's release people were getting incredibly hyped up and excited for it as it seemed like such a fantastic mon on paper. i myself haven't tested with it as much as i would like, but i would like to say that from what i have seen and played against, hoopa is not nearly as deadly as it is in theory. vs offense it is dead weight pretty much as it's typing is pretty terrible defensively, breaking neutral vs most common offensive types in the metagame. it also has a sub-par ability along with no real way to stay around. it's switching is limited vastly by the pressure that offense places (especially in ORAS) and i find that hoopa is best left to defeating balance / stallish teams. scarf hoopa is ok, but then again it still has trouble switching in, loses it's ability to break balance well, loses some power, and is even more vulnerable to hazards than before.

yes hoopa is good sometimes. but i can't see it really as a pokemon that deserves to be banned. i remember looking at the viability rankings and being surprised that hoopa was even placed in the A+ ranking (although maybe i'm wrong on that one). as of right now, i wouldn't say that it is up for testing, i think that if were are going to test it it should be after OLT / tour so we can get a good picture of how it plays out in higher levels of play. but as of now, do not ban.

on manaphy: lol remember when i got 6-0d by manaphy in spl? i'm going to say that i hate manaphy a lot. this mon is by far one of the most annoying god damn pokemon that i have ever had the displeasure to face. and while i would love to knock it's face off the earth for how it embarrassed me in spl finals (s/o ctc), i really only have to blame myself for that one. but honestly, i like manaphy. it could definitely be ban-worthy though. sometimes i feel that it is a necessary evil in a way in that we kind of do need something to handle balance in oras. manaphy also is not an insta-win vs most balance teams (at least it isn't anymore considering people actually now have the smart idea to build counters / speed into their balance teams most of the time now).

the thing with manaphy is often you need to have the EXACT right combination of moves to defeat your opponent, but the problem is finding out the 3 moves that manaphy has (or if u just don't have a way to beat it at all lol). switching around a mon at +3 to scout is always pretty risky especially if your team is slower considering any chip damage can be pretty bad in the future. this is what makes manaphy really hard to face, as it is hard to figure out what it is packing outside of scald if it is running the 3 attack set.

the bulky rain dance set is also pretty threatening to balance because of how it manages to be annoying throughout the game due to it being able to RD and recover, and it also sometimes comes down to being able to get sand up as it uses rest...of course this wouldn't be NEARLY as big a problem if it didn't scald burn venu / ferro / latios. scald is a pretty big part of what makes manaphy (especially the rd rest set) so annoying because being able to burn stuff is a great way to just block stuff from countering it in the future. once a ferro is burnt it loses the ability to beat manaphy / do pretty much anything else. same thing with venu, synthesis is a terrible recovery move and burn + sr + sand (optional) is a torture to face.

vs offense manaphy isn't bad, but it isn't necessarily great either. it usually has enough bulky to tank a hit, and sometimes has the coverage to get a kill / act as a buffer. but for the most part it isn't going to get much of a chance to set up / do much damage unless it manages to get the ball rolling vs something like RH chomp.

manaphy is pretty threatening though, probably the best pixie out right now. i see a lot of balance players wanting it to be suspected and honestly i wouldn't be opposed to it. while it can't pull of a million sets and you need to be very careful about what moves you are picking to give manaphy, it is one of those pokemon that can instantly make a balance player think from turn 1 "ok, how am i going to scout / avoid getting 6-0 by this?" this is why i think manaphy is suspect worthy.

on shadow tag: err... not really sure on this one. i mean i'm ok with banning shadow tag as it would render that abhorrent / atrocious / despicable / horrific bof stall null, but i don't know if it is 100% worth banning. you will see that nobody in serious tournament play actually considers using that team with goth, and it almost never wins vs an actual solid team anyway. wobb is different, but i don't see it being used much in competitive play either. i'm not opposed to banning it, so it probably is pretty suspect worthy.

ban volc tho fuck that mon stop bringing it vs me

 

[Tom Bus]

Hoopa-U

There are pokemon like Kyurem-B and Gengar that have very few switch ins/counters and typically fare very well against balance and semistall, but there are a few options like Clefable and Jirachi for Kyurem-B or M-Sableye and spdef Mandibuzz for Gengar if you want to have a reliable switch in. There is nothing that can switch into Hoopa-U. It has a fantastic match up against bulkier, slower teams and can (for the most part) only be checked by faster physical attackers. It isn’t a liability against HO as its 80/130 special defence stats are on par with Latias, allowing it to threaten the opposing team if it gets a free switch against something like -2 Latios (although Hoopa-U can take one draco after SR), M-Manectric, Alakazam, Thundurus etc., despite HO being its worst match up.

Its relatively low speed does mean it will only get one KO (or even zero) against HO most of the time, while stall can check Hoopa-U with signal beam Gothitelle (shoutout ABR) or Dugtrio (on Shedinja stall) after sacrificing one pokemon to get a small amount of damage on it. In my opinion, the best way to deal with Hoopa-U is to use HO or other fast offence, because using balance/semistall/stall and having to sac pokemon to Hoopa-U really isn’t practical most of the time. Seems broken to me for having no switch ins and restricting team building to the extent that the viability of entire play styles is greatly reduced.


Manaphy

Ban Manaphy. Again, Manaphy doesn’t fare very well against HO, although in this case it is because of its lack of immediate power. I don’t think Manaphy itself is broken, but it is broken because of the combination of offensive tail glow and bulkier calm mind sets (so I’d be happy with just a tail glow ban), giving it the ability to bust through slower teams with tail glow + three attacks or to 6-0 most stall teams with CM + rain dance + rest (unless they have the balanced pokemon: Gothitelle to check it). To clarify, Latios is a common switch in to tail glow Manaphy, despite draco not OHKOing it and +3 ice beam OHKOing Latios. CM Manaphy sets up on LO Latios (unless Latios also has CM) and other mons that check the tail glow set, like AV Raikou, allowing it to beat a lot of the pokemon that trouble the standard tail glow set. I’ve wanted this pokemon banned for a long time. It just seems very obviously banworthy :[. Again, it reduces the viability of slower, bulkier teams, and when combined with Hoopa-U (not necessarily on the same team; just the fact that both of these pokemon are in OU), it is very difficult to run defensive teams.


Shadow Tag

This seems fundamentally broken to me. It gives the shadow tag user an unfair amount of control over the game by allowing them to check a huge number of pokemon using just one slot: trick Gothitelle. Wobbuffet doesn’t have the same tools as Gothitelle (trick and attacking moves), so I think it is much less broken and probably not banworthy.

In normal gameplay, good teambuilding or fortunate match up can give rise to situations in which your opponent cannot afford to KO a pokemon or make a certain move because they will lose a vital pokemon or lose the game by doing so. Shadow tag provides the Gothitelle user with an unfair amount of these situations as stall breakers like M-Heracross, Togekiss, Manaphy can only get one KO before being psychic’d or tricked, KOing them or making them essentially useless. Gothitelle is mainly used on full stall, but it can also be paired with several potent sweepers on an HO team, allowing the Gothitelle user to take out a specific wall to allow a sweeper to win the game. Gothitelle also beats most stall pokemon one on one just by tricking them and stalling them out with rest. A complex ban of Gothitelle/Gothorita/Gothita + shadow tag is probably the best option here as that reduces the collateral damage associated with banning shadow tag as a whole.

 

[Finchinator]

Hoopa-Unbound

I've been playing balanced and offense ever since Hoopa-Unbound has been out and I think that it's a bit too overwhelming for the former to deal with while the latter can pressure it a bit too much for it to put in much work, but sometimes it can get an attack or two off. Since Hoopa-Unbound has been released, I've noticed that the metagame has accelerated in pace a bit (moreso than it already has) and offensive teams have been trending more than the Hippo and/or Clef standard balance that we saw a lot in WCOP. I'm not going to fully scapegoat Hoopa-Unbound as the reason for this as ORAS metagames are constantly changing and evolving as time elapses, but one would have to think that Hoopa-Unbound has to be one of the primary causes for this. Hoopa-Unbound does so well against balance given that it probably outpaces 4 or so of the team members on even a well constructed balanced team and it has an array of powerful attacks at its disposal to break through a lot of cores or teams in general without much support or circumstances in its favor. Sure, it is threatened by priority and physical attacks in general, but a run-of-the-mill balanced or bulky offensive team may lack much priority or may only have 1-2 fast pokemon while it may have a couple things that let Hoopa-Unbound in relatively safe, meaning that it is easily plausible for Hoopa-Unbound to get two or three kills without too much prediction (unless one of the quicker pokemon can pivot into common attacks Hoopa-Unbound uses, but even then, prediction is a two-way street and can't really be used as an argument, so that's a moot point - as are arguments like "playing around" Hoopa-Unbound, which PDC uses in his anti-ban argument, as "playing around" something involves taking a risk each and every turn and that just shows how threatening Hoopa-Unbound is if anything).

So overall my point on Hoopa-Unbound is that it plays a role in making the metagame more offensive, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but being that it does so because it makes balanced or bulky teams much harder to play, it is not a healthy presence in the metagame and given the overall lack of counters to its varied strong attacks, I think Hoopa-Unbound should be banned and it is certainly suspect worthy.

One last thing on Hoopa-Unbound:

yes hoopa is good sometimes. but i can't see it really as a pokemon that deserves to be banned. i remember looking at the viability rankings and being surprised that hoopa was even placed in the A+ ranking (although maybe i'm wrong on that one). as of right now, i wouldn't say that it is up for testing, i think that if were are going to test it it should be after OLT / tour so we can get a good picture of how it plays out in higher levels of play. but as of now, do not ban.

The fact that Hoopa-Unbound can be "good" (which is an understatement btw, because when it has the match-up it's fucking terrific) "sometimes" is enough to put it over the edge. Making a whole archetype or playstyle restricted or at least significantly less viable than beforehand is grounds to ban something because if something like Hoopa-Unbound faces a standard bulky Hippo team, it's going to do quite a bit of work unless it is pressured almost every single turn and there's not much the opponent can do to stop it besides run a faster paced team, so I feel like you're underestimating the importance of Hoopa-Unbound's effect on the metagame and bulkier playstyles in general. With that said, maybe having Hoopa-Unbound in the metagame a bit longer would let us gain an accurate glimpse on it and our opinions could change, so I'm not entirely opposed to your idea of waiting until after OLT and tour.

Manaphy

Aha, this is one of the pokes who I've been on the fence with in the past, but ultimately came to the conclusion that it'd be better for Manaphy to get suspected and potentially banned than otherwise. Unlike Hoopa, Manaphy's not going to pose an immediate threat to balanced or bulky-offensive teams (although offensive Manaphy can annoy offense off the bat, they usually have means of revenge killing and checking it within reason). Manaphy's main merit is its ability to set up a tail glow and/or rain dance without much consequence and proceed to run over bulkier teams; it's true that things like Latis and Specs Keld can be used to put a dent into or revenge kill Manaphy, but not all bulkier teams can fit these on as they don't provide much defensive utility and I feel that when you get down to the surface of balanced and even semi-stall, you're going to find yourself weak to some variant of Manaphy, if not multiple variants, given that they all are aimed to destroy bulky teams to some extent. To briefly touch on the best variants, there is TG+3 attacks (Scald, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Psychic, and HP Fire are all viable attacks..personally I've been using Scald+Ice Beam+Energy Ball, but it's team dependent and that works best with a lure to Ferrothorn, to be honest), Tail Glow + Rain Dance, and even Calm Mind + Rain Dance + Rest. I've found the 3 attack + tail glow variant to be the best, most consistently threatening, but it has fit my quicker paced playstyle the most. If someone is using a slower paced team and wants to fit Manaphy on, they can easily abuse a rd and/or rest variant easily and their match-up against bulkier teams becomes infinitely better. To cut to the point, Manaphy's nothing exceptional initially, but given that it has the speed to outrun offense and the coverage to hit almost everything in conjunction with a move like Tail Glow, Manaphy is a bitch to stop unless you have the necessary offensive pressure, revenge killer(s), or counters - which there are a limited quantity of. There are tons of WCOP and other tournament games where Manaphy either sweeps or pushes the issue to the extent that the person facing Manaphy has been put in a poor, probably unsalvageable position when Manaphy has finished doing its work and I think that instead of risking losing to it or having every bulky team run a specific pokemon or core to handle it, it'd be better for Manaphy to be suspected and potentially get the boot from ORAS OU on the grounds of there being few defensive counters and bulky teams struggling with all or at least some (case by case basis) of its variants.

Shadow Tag

Yea, I know it's annoying to deal with and at times it can make gameplay incredibly uncompetitive, but Shadow Tag has been lingering around the metagame for a long time and it doesn't see much usage because it's unreliable. With that said, just because something is rarely resorted to or something is rarely effective doesn't mean we can totally ignore it. When it's all said and done, Shadow Tag is a fundamentally crippling ability as switching is one of the key components of any competitive battle and without the ability to do that, a major wall that may be needed to check/counter something can be rendered useless set-up fodder for Gothitelle and eventually be eliminated alongside a stall teams's chance to check a threat. I'm not a fan of hard stall in ORAS, but there are plenty of ways to break it that involve using non-passive threats and actually outplaying as opposed to using something like Shadow Tag. So, I think that getting rid of Shadow Tag is beneficial as it isn't a healthy or competitive ability by any means (pretty sure it was banned in lower tiers under these conditions already, too) and I don't think that doing this will make stall too good or anything, but I don't think this is a very urgent matter as Shadow Tag has been around all generation and we can deal with it a bit easier than we can common, potentially broken threats like the two afroementioned pokemon.

 

[Oglemi]

It's kinda eerie how similar the arguments around Hoopa-U so far are to that of BW RU Nidoqueen. The arguments there being that Nidoqueen pretty much made stall non-viable, but was ultimately determined to not be broken due to it being hard to use against offense teams. If anyone would want to read up on that here's a link or two to take a look at: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nidoqueen-suspect-discussion.3470318/, http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ueen-votes-inside.3468851/page-2#post-4357483

I think the real important thing to keep in mind when discussing Hoopa-U is: is it really a /bad/ thing that stall/bulky balance may no longer be fully viable? I think it should be considered that maybe Hoopa-U limiting the metagame is a potentially good thing, since a lot of the complaints about ORAS OU before was that there was too much to prepare for and the metagame too wide. Perhaps Hoopa-U making a playstyle hard to use or largely ineffective is a good balancing tool to keep in mind going forward in the discussion. Determining a ban on Hoopa-U will go a long way in hammering out a new definition of what a desirable metagame is.

 

[Finchinator]

I think the real important thing to keep in mind when discussing Hoopa-U is: is it really a /bad/ thing that stall/bulky balance may no longer be fully viable?

An archetype that has been developed and used a plethora of time in various settings shouldn't be completely obsoleted by one Pokemon. When push comes to shove and you have to pick between the two, the one Pokemon is probably worth getting rid of if it has such a noteworthy impact on a metagame that a whole style of play is no longer worth using. If we were to let stall, semi-stall, and passive bulkier teams in general deteriorate in viability while letting Pokemon with few or even no checks like Hoopa-Unbound remain in the tier, then what would stop OU from turning into a "broken checks broken" tier? Generally speaking, a lot of people say that a necessary trait of a balanced metagame is that every playstyle is useable and if we want ORAS OU to reach that point, then we can't let something like Hoopa-Unbound play this role in shaping the metagame and how viable entire playstyles are, in my opinion.

I think it should be considered that maybe Hoopa-U limiting the metagame is a potentially good thing, since a lot of the complaints about ORAS OU before was that there was too much to prepare for and the metagame too wide. Perhaps Hoopa-U making a playstyle hard to use or largely ineffective is a good balancing tool to keep in mind going forward in the discussion. Determining a ban on Hoopa-U will go a long way in hammering out a new definition of what a desirable metagame is.

This is actually an interesting point and I am glad you brought it up. It is true that many people, including myself, feel that there is too much to cover in ORAS OU right now and that things need to be watered down in order to reach a more ideal metagame. I think that allowing Hoopa-Unbound may do as you foresee it to - limit playstyles and make preparing for threats easier; however, this comes with major consequences when you think it through - you cannot simply slap bulkier Pokemon that kill momentum onto offensive teams and in an accelerated metagame, offense will be dominant and there may very well be problems that arise with offensive teams being able to consistently check opposing offensive threats. To be completely honest, this sort of ties into the fear I mentioned in response to the first bit I quoted: allowing Hoopa-Unbound to remain in the tier in order to hurt stall's viability may very well turn the tier into a "broken checks broken" type of situation which is the exact opposite of a balanced metagame which we seek to attain.

-----
Overall, I feel like sticking to the conventional philosophy and banning a threat without many (or really any...) counters and then continuing to rid the tier of problematic threats is a safer bet than allowing this one in an attempt to regulate and limit the metagame through the hindering of stall/bulky teams's viability.

 

[Tom Bus]

It's kinda eerie how similar the arguments around Hoopa-U so far are to that of BW RU Nidoqueen. The arguments there being that Nidoqueen pretty much made stall non-viable, but was ultimately determined to not be broken due to it being hard to use against offense teams. If anyone would want to read up on that here's a link or two to take a look at: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nidoqueen-suspect-discussion.3470318/, http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ueen-votes-inside.3468851/page-2#post-4357483

I think the real important thing to keep in mind when discussing Hoopa-U is: is it really a /bad/ thing that stall/bulky balance may no longer be fully viable? I think it should be considered that maybe Hoopa-U limiting the metagame is a potentially good thing, since a lot of the complaints about ORAS OU before was that there was too much to prepare for and the metagame too wide. Perhaps Hoopa-U making a playstyle hard to use or largely ineffective is a good balancing tool to keep in mind going forward in the discussion. Determining a ban on Hoopa-U will go a long way in hammering out a new definition of what a desirable metagame is.

Seconding basically everything that Finch said in reply to this, but I also want to add that there are too many offensive threats to prepare for, as opposed to too many playstyles to prepare for. For example, things like M-Altaria and M-Metagross have very few reliable counters, which is why there are so many semistall or balance teams based around Hippowdon/Talonflame/Starmie/Ferrothorn. You can check most of the major threats with this combination and use something like CM M-Sableye as a stallbreaker, but there is very little room for variation due to the number of offensive threats in ORAS OU, so the result is that a lot of balance/semistall/defensive teams in general look the same, and this isn't a sign of a 'healthy' metagame. We should be suspect testing some of the threats with very few checks and counters as opposed to allowing defensive playstyles to become inviable because there are too many offensive threats to check and counter. My view of a desirable metagame is one in which all playstyles are viable as this allows for creativity/freedom in building.

 

[ABR]

Since the topic of Hoopa's and Manaphy's noticable lack of counters has already been thoroughly discussed, I'd like to focus more on the impact these pokemon have on the metagame itself. In response to what Oglemi has mentioned, I think that the overall effect of these pokemon on the metagame is negative. It is wrong to try to constrain the metagame even more than it already is. With both Manaphy and Hoopa allowed in the tier right now, the metagame is shifting towards offense at a much greater rate than any previous time period in ORAS. Even if people are using balance teams, they all, for the most part, follow a standard bulky core to wall all of these threats, because there are only a few ways of doing so. With these threats gone, oras could develop more and we would likely see an increase in creative and diverse builds. Manaphy and Hoopa severely restrict teambuilding in addition to having limited counterplay. Their presence is simply not healthy.

I would like to note that I find Hoopa to be a much more pressing issue than Manaphy. Manaphy may have lackluster and mediocre switchins, but at least we have some sort of clue as to what its going to do. For the most part, we know what item Manaphy is going to carry, that it has TG/cm + scald, etc. With Hoopa, however, it can run any 4 of ~10 viable coverage options in addition to more than a few viable spreads/items to use. There is no real way to safely scout Hoopa either because pivoting against 160/170 offenses with coverage is no easy feat. It is also important to note that Hoopa is not useless against offensive teams because it still avoids many ohkos with its special bulk and can run a choice scarf set. I find it irrelevant that Hoopa has poor physical bulk and mediocre speed, because its other qualities are so overwhelming in terms of counterplay and the effect on the metagame.

As for Shadow Tag, I think that Gothitelle is the real culprit here but I wouldn't mind throwing all the STag users into the suspect because Wobb is also very overwhelming at times. With Gothitelle, I feel that many people don't understand its true potential as a threat to all playstyles, and its viability on all types of teams. Gothitelle is mostly seen on stall teams, and its not hard to see why. Primarily, Gothitelle serves as a means of beating threats to stall like Manaphy and Magma Storm Heatran that are otherwise difficult to handle. Gothitelle can also revenge kill Mega Heracross, paralyze Gardevoir, and trick other threats like SD Gliscor/NP Thundurus. This also lets stall teams beat opposing stall by tricking the hazard user/remover and/or the cleric. The list really goes on and on when it comes to Gothitelle's uses on stall. As for Gothitelle's uses on offensive teams, there are still plenty. On offense, Gothitelle primarily serves as the way to trap and kill opposing hazard setters/removers as well as walls to teammates. For example, Gothitelle can run HP Fire for Ferrothorn to support Gyarados, and can also trick the opposing lead chomp so defogging is very easy and the opponent can never keep rocks. An argument I really dislike about Gothitelle is that its easy to predict and pursuit trap it for example. Like Finchinator said, predictions go both ways so thats a moot point. The gamebreaking and uncompetitve nature of an ability such as Shadow Tag is too much for ORAS OU to handle in a healthy way.

 

[Vinc2612]

On Hoopa-U:
When this thing came around, I was one of the people who said: "yeah, I'm not building taking this in account, I give it 4 days before a quickban". The quickban never came and I started to face him more regulary.
The main difference between Hoopa-U and other "broken" or big stallbreakers is the following: it does not have the 4th move syndrom. It can use the same 4 attacks (hyperspace fury, focus blast, gunk shot and grass knot) to 2HKO any defensive threat not named Mandibuzz, Landorus-Therian (37-44%, slower, no recovery) or Gliscor (252/252+ still takes ~48%, can not roost on Grass Knot, Hyperspace Fuy hitting through Protect and Substitute).
Against offense, it will make the battle 5v5 in the worst case scenario, taking away a Pokémon with it due to the lower speed/physical bulk. But still taking away a Pokémon with it.

On the other hand, stall is unreliable, with or without Hoopa-U. Hoopa-U may be the most obvious one, but there are many other examples of Pokémon that just break stalls (mainly because 6 defensive can't check the whole meta), making it the most matchup based playstyle. Offense are not that threatened if you manage to "pick which Pokémon to sac to deal with it" while balanced can play around by having usually two faster Pokémon that can pressure it out or revenge kill.

I would still be for the suspect since the con are really low compared to the pro, but it is probably the less needed of the three.

On Manaphy:
As it was said before, it needs Tail Glow to be significantly threatening. So it only has three moves. That is the only reason I can see to keep it unban.
Manaphy is the definition of the lure. Psychic will help against Venusaur. Ice Beam against Celebi and Dragons. HP fire against Ferrothorn. EBall against Rotom-W and Gastrodon. Scald when in doubt. The Rain Scaldburn also gives a fair shot at beating Unaware Clefable.
But more than that, Manaphy has a solid bulk. An offensive check will not OHKO and be OHKO'd by the right +3 move. A defensive check may avoid the OHKO/2HKO, but will it be able to deal back with Manaphy?
If you want to threaten an offensive team, "just" use Tail Glow on a Fire, Ground or on Scizor. It is not that hard actually.


On Shadow Tag:
First of all, Shadow Tag is not broken. Gothitelle is. People did not understand her true power yet. Since there will not be any possible switch, there is no need of coverage. You just adapt the set to fit your needs. I can pick which Pokémon will not threaten me. I can actually expend the pool of trapped Pokémon so there will always be one of them in the opposing team.
By using Gothitelle, you nullify the matchup problem against Stall and most balanced (except if you are weak to the offensive Pokémon that balanced is playing). It is not like Hoopa. The stall of balanced can not play around. Your Pokémon is trapped, it is now dead. You do not want to switch it in by fear of the trap? What's the difference between dead and stuck in the Pokéball?
I will say it again: I can pick which Pokémon will not threaten me. I want to build around Manaphy? Specs, Psyshock, HP Fire, there are no more Ferrothorn or Venusaur. Defensive Zard-X? Non-Specs Trick + Rest / Grass Knot kills Heatran, Hippowdon and bulky waters. I have a team based on Gothitelle and five threats for offensive teams. I know I will not be weak to stall or balanced, so I have those 5 Pokémon just to get a nice matchup against offense.

Still not convinced? Well, I am. Gothitelle is the devil. Maybe we need other bans before people realize it, but this is the most needed one in my opinion.

 

[Slimmer]

on Hoopa-Unbound:
being a "new toy", this monster was hyped so much, maybe even too much. Its qualities are already listed by AM so I won't go further describing them.
The main issue is that Hoopa can almost always take a kill thanks to its ridicolous and immediate power. It does not even need turns to set-up (it could anyway, thanks to NPlot and PuP, but it doesn't really need) to kill stuff, it just has to attack. Several defensive answers are 2HKOed, like Mega Scizor who usually tanks several neutral damages. You can't even discuss some "checks" like Landorus-Therian and/or Gliscor because Hoopa-U can rely on a too wide movepool and it, though its usual 4-6 moves can deal with almost everything. Yeah there are faster threats and priorities who can deal with it, but the main point is that in the moment Hoopa has an advantage, there aren't too many ways to prevent it severely cripples (or even kill) at least one monster. Offensive teams can't always have on the field a faster mon with a physical move that kills it, so even them aren't "untouchable". Hoopa can check stuff like Manaphy and hit it hard, just saying (while manaphy can't kill hoopa-u even with TG Boost).
So, despite its average speed and awful physical defensive bulk, it can rely on too much power, a too wide movepool and a really good versatility which makes it too much powerful for the tier, imo, and getting at least "only one" kill or more makes it banworthy to my sight, accordingly suspect-worthy for sure.

on Manaphy:
this all-100 bst monster showed to be the classical water offensive monster with godly coverage, like Greninja was. Manaphy showed to be a powerful balance breaker who can count on mainly two sets: the TG classical one and the RD one. These two sets can deal with different threats who usually "walls" the other one, like Unaware Clefable loses 1v1 vs RD Manaphy while it can wall the TG, and Ferrothorn or Keldeo vice versa. Manaphy can rely on a very good bulk that allows it to tank most of unboosted hits, some even supereffective. Its power isn't immediate tho, it needs to Tail Glow to start wallbreaking. It suffers a big 4MSS since it can't stop properly ferrothorn without HP Fire (but it can burn it with Scald, though seeds are too annoying), it can't stop bulky waters without Energy Ball (though Shadow Ball is a good compromise to take both Latwins and Slowbro) and it can't stop dragons+grass types without Ice Beam. It's not absolutely uncheckable (though Scald burns helps it so much in crippling some of its main answers) because there are enough defensive and/or faster threats that can take its moves, especially if unboosted. Manaphy became somehow manageable and, although it theoretically makes balanced teams unviable, they adapted to it practically (it's still one of the major threats, and some sets like the Salac Berry one helped him threatening offensive teams too). Suspect-worthy, nothing more.

I have to add a side note about these two mons: both contributed to turn the metagame in a more offensive way, which is not that bad considering the balanced spam during WCoP period made other playstyle being somehow less viable and the metagame turned to be a whole (boring) fat balance spam. A desiderable metagame is one in which any playstyle could be viable without too many flaws. Right now, fat balanced teams are way far better than hyper offensive ones or stall ones, since there aren't blanket wallbreakers and playing balanced is safer for matchup issues. Besides that, I'm not sure that Hoopa-U and Manaphy (especially the first one) can help the metagame being more balanced (which is different from playing /just/ balanced) in an healthy way. Suspect tests can help to have a better idea on this.

Shadow Tag:
this is more a matter of principle than a practical one, since Gothitelle and Wobbuffet's effectiveness is basically matchup-based. They are so good right now because, as I just said above, the current metagame is predominated by fat balanced teams which can't get rid of them quickly, but they can't do much against most of offensive threats, especially statupping ones (think about Charizard X, or Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, NP Thundurus, Mega Scizor etc). That being said, Shadow Tag can be banned following the logic that preventing switching without nothing in exchange (at least Mean Look, Block etc require a moveslot and a turn) is just lame, while in practice STag users aren't always successful, though Gothitelle is very good in just killing or trick-resting against fat stuff. I would rather go with a STag suspect than a Gothitelle one due to the lame nature of the ability itself, which can be even defined as "uncompetitive". suspect-worthy.

I think it should be considered that maybe Hoopa-U limiting the metagame is a potentially good thing, since a lot of the complaints about ORAS OU before was that there was too much to prepare for and the metagame too wide.

This quote reminds me the Aegi unban suspect, and the april fool Giratina's: both were unsuccessful, so, at least statistically, this won't be a good argument in order to keep Hoopa OU. It surely deserves a suspect due to its too much power. Even Manaphy could.
I repeat again that I'd prefer a balanced metagame rather than a "balance", but I'm not totally sure Hoopa will help the metagame to have an equity in playstyles' viability, it seems more like a powerful glass cannon (not that "glass" tho considering its SDef bulk) that just easily kills most of the meta. Manaphy seems less dangerous in this way because it absolutely needs the boost in order to end the game, but it can deserve a suspect too considering how much easily it can deal with fat balanced teams.

 

[henry]

Hoopa-Unbound:

if the goal of oras ou tiering is to make a balanced and diverse metagame then there's no reason to keep hoopa-u in the tier. the argument that hoopa-u isn't great against offense shouldn't be a reason for it not to be banned (if we're really pretending that scarf is a shitty set, even though offense has no way to switch into mixed scarf).

irrespective of the idea that oras ou is "more offensive" to a point of hoopa being less viable against the majority of matchups still means nothing. what actually matters for hoopa-u is the fact that it really and truly is impossible for a playstyle like stall (and bulkier balance to an extent) to actually be viable when a certain one of six slots can tear apart your entire team and outspeed at the very least 4/6 of your team members. hoopa-u's cons mean nothing when the benefits of using it include invalidating previously viable playstyle(s).

 

[Aurious]

Hoopa-Unbound: When I first saw this things offensive stats I felt like this thing will get banned soon anyway so I didn't rly test much with it until like 1 and a half week ago. After it didn't get banned as soon as I thought I decided to test a bit with it and now I feel like this thing is 10 times better on paper than in praxis. It's still a pretty good 'mon in praxis but simply not as good as onybody thought before. I am not saying it's deadweight against offensive teams but it usually can't really switch in on anything so it has to come in on a sacc or on a U-Turn / Volt Switch then it gets max one kill and gets revenged after that. Against Balance it's pretty destructive but it's definetely not a free win since Balance teams usually carry some more offensive 'mons which can outspeed and revenge it such as Garchomp, Scarftar, Mega Scizor, Latios, Keldeo, Mega-Charizard-X etc. It works pretty well against stall teams but even on these teams there is usually some stuff which can take a hit such as Mega-Sableye, Skarmory etc. or Scarftar as Pursuit-trapper which forces Hoopa into a 50:50 with Pursuit. The Scarf set helps against Offense but still struggles with switching-in and is not that strong as the LO-set so the best thing it can do is revenge killing some 'mons or late-game clean. I think it's a very good S-Rank / A+ Rank 'mon but more in a healthy form for the metagame since without Hoopa and Manaphy defensive teams would be way to spammable similair to late XY but it's not suspect-worthy

Manaphy: Similair to Hoopa-U this thing is a great Balance- and also Stallbreaker. The difference between these two is that Manaphy has way more bulk then Hoopa has but Hoopa has way more power while Manaphy needs to setup a Tail Glow before it can get very dangerous which it easily can do against more defensive teams. The thing is that most of the Stall teams around rn just carry an Unaware 'mon or a Chansey to wall it. It can usually come through against more Balance easier with a +3 boost but Balance teams also carry who are faster than Manaphy and can deal a lot of Damage to it such as Tornadus-Therian, Lati@s, Keldeoor some Electric types such as Mega-Manectric or Raikou. It also sometimes has the problem of the 4MSS sometimes since it needs Hidden Power Fire to beat Ferro, Psychic to beat Mega-Veusaur, Ice Beam to beat Lati@s etc. It usually can do more damage to offensive teams then Hoopa does because it can take some hits and deal some sort of damage with spamming Scald etc. The Rain Dance + cm set is designed to beat Stall teams and it does that very well but it's not as good against Balance and Offense teams as the Tail Glow 3 Attacks set is. Overall I think that Manaphy has some advantages and some disadvantages over Hoopa but none of them is ban worthy.

Shadow tag: Totally agree with Vinc here. Gothitelle is a really destructive 'mon especially on a Stall beat to beat random threats ur team can't cover otherwise. Wobbu isn't broken but it's still a very dumb 'mon to play against so I wouldn't mind if both get banned. But definetely ban Gothitelle.

Another 'mon which might be ban worthy in my opinion is Clefable. U can easily put the Magic Guard + Calm Mind on any kind of team and it can always be a very dangerous 'mon when it is able to setup at the right moment. I think suspect testing it would be a very good idea just to see how a metagame without it would be. Mega-Sableye would probably be a pretty pretty strong 'mon without it around so if Clef gets banned Sabl will probably have to be banned after.

 

[AM]

Hoopa-Unbound: When I first saw this things offensive stats I felt like this thing will get banned soon anyway so I didn't rly test much with it until like 1 and a half week ago. After it didn't get banned as soon as I thought I decided to test a bit with it and now I feel like this thing is 10 times better on paper than in praxis. It's still a pretty good 'mon in praxis but simply not as good as onybody thought before. I am not saying it's deadweight against offensive teams but it usually can't really switch in on anything so it has to come in on a sacc or on a U-Turn / Volt Switch then it gets max one kill and gets revenged after that. Against Balance it's pretty destructive but it's definetely not a free win since Balance teams usually carry some more offensive 'mons which can outspeed and revenge it such as Garchomp, Scarftar, Mega Scizor, Latios, Keldeo, Mega-Charizard-X etc. It works pretty well against stall teams but even on these teams there is usually some stuff which can take a hit such as Mega-Sableye, Skarmory etc. or Scarftar as Pursuit-trapper which forces Hoopa into a 50:50 with Pursuit. The Scarf set helps against Offense but still struggles with switching-in and is not that strong as the LO-set so the best thing it can do is revenge killing some 'mons or late-game clean. I think it's a very good S-Rank / A+ Rank 'mon but more in a healthy form for the metagame since without Hoopa and Manaphy defensive teams would be way to spammable similair to late XY but it's not suspect-worthy

Manaphy: Similair to Hoopa-U this thing is a great Balance- and also Stallbreaker. The difference between these two is that Manaphy has way more bulk then Hoopa has but Hoopa has way more power while Manaphy needs to setup a Tail Glow before it can get very dangerous which it easily can do against more defensive teams. The thing is that most of the Stall teams around rn just carry an Unaware 'mon or a Chansey to wall it. It can usually come through against more Balance easier with a +3 boost but Balance teams also carry who are faster than Manaphy and can deal a lot of Damage to it such as Tornadus-Therian, Lati@s, Keldeoor some Electric types such as Mega-Manectric or Raikou. It also sometimes has the problem of the 4MSS sometimes since it needs Hidden Power Fire to beat Ferro, Psychic to beat Mega-Veusaur, Ice Beam to beat Lati@s etc. It usually can do more damage to offensive teams then Hoopa does because it can take some hits and deal some sort of damage with spamming Scald etc. The Rain Dance + cm set is designed to beat Stall teams and it does that very well but it's not as good against Balance and Offense teams as the Tail Glow 3 Attacks set is. Overall I think that Manaphy has some advantages and some disadvantages over Hoopa but none of them is ban worthy.

Shadow tag: Totally agree with Vinc here. Gothitelle is a really destructive 'mon especially on a Stall beat to beat random threats ur team can't cover otherwise. Wobbu isn't broken but it's still a very dumb 'mon to play against so I wouldn't mind if both get banned. But definetely ban Gothitelle.

Another 'mon which might be ban worthy in my opinion is Clefable. U can easily put the Magic Guard + Calm Mind on any kind of team and it can always be a very dangerous 'mon when it is able to setup at the right moment. I think suspect testing it would be a very good idea just to see how a metagame without it would be. Mega-Sableye would probably be a pretty pretty strong 'mon without it around so if Clef gets banned Sabl will probably have to be banned after.

Aurious Clefable is most definitely not on the table as a potential suspect. Let's not bring up other candidates either as that is not the point of this thread which has been clearly established, please and thank you.

 

[bludz]

So I think one common aspect that broken or unhealthy pokemon share is limited counterplay. In this post I'll outline some of the counterplay for the potential suspects that were brought up, and whether I think this is limited enough to warrant a suspect test.

Hoopa-Unbound:
Basically we all know the deal here. Hoopa-Unbound is an absolute monster to switch into, definitely the strongest mixed attacker in the tier with a great STAB and awesome coverage to boot. Offensive teams don't require much counterplay: there's a certain level of sacrifice required in offensive play anyway so letting things take a massive chunk of damage to return some is normal. However, both balance and stall teams have little to no counterplay for this monster. Scouting for its moveset is undeniably going to lead to a lot of unnecessary damage being spread about, and even if the balance or stall player is able to take it out they will most likely have suffered a lot in the process leaving the rest of the opponent's team ample opportunity to clean up. Mandibuzz is not an answer because Hoopa has multiple ways of beating it: Adamant LO Gunk Shot 2HKOs after Rocks, Thunderbolt makes quick work of it and also 252 SpA LO Focus Blast 2HKOs after Rocks as well. Fairies are destroyed by Gunk Shot, physically defensive Skarmory is 2HKO'd by Fire Punch after SR and also can't take LO Dark Pulses at all. Unaware Clefable loses to LO Psyshock on NP variants (lol not even considering Gunk Shot) and Chansey can't take on physical or Nasty Plot variants.

In short, bulky playstyles have little to no counterplay to Hoopa-Unbound. This is unhealthy because it fosters a more offensive metagame and reduces the viability of other playstyles and many bulky pokemon in this metagame. I am in favor of a suspect test. This is probably echoing some sentiments that have already been shared but before Hoopa's release I felt like the metagame had settled and was seeming more balanced than it had been in a while.

Manaphy:
Once again, most offense doesn't require a lot of counterplay because Manaphy needs a turn to set up. However certain bulky offensive teams have pokemon that are setup fodder and Manaphy can still end up pressuring them decently. Hyper Offense doesn't have much trouble with it but I do believe that Sitrus Berry is a very underrated item on Manaphy that turns a lot of 2HKOs into 3HKOs and allows it to actually set up and get a kill. Balance teams have a few answers, but they are all reliant on Manaphy's final move. Unaware Clefable can stall out non RD Manaphy, Venusaur can beat non-Psychic variants and Ferrothorn is a decent answer to non-HP Fire variants (although it hates Scald burns). AV Slowking can take a +3 Energy Ball and Dragon Tail Manaphy out but this is only a temporary solution. This is a very short list of decent answers on balance. On stall the same answers exist but one of the more popular methods is using Gothitelle to Trick Manaphy a Choice Scarf which effectively neuters its ability to set up.

I believe that balance and stall have limited counterplay to Manaphy. I also think this is somewhat unhealthy because once again it shifts the metagame in an offensive direction and really limits teambuilding and effectiveness of many bulkier teams. I would also be in favor of a suspect test for Manaphy. I am not saying I certainly believe it should be banned, but I think moreso than the other two potential suspects that a suspect test here would give us a strong glimpse into a metagame without it (because in the case of Hoopa-U we already saw the metagame without it).

Shadow Tag:
I honestly believe this ability is straight up uncompetitive. It can be argued that neither Gothitelle or Wobbuffet are dominant pokemon, and I won't argue that. However they provide a type of support that can hardly be planned for. You can run things like Shed Shell on your Ferrothorn, but that solution is simply shit for pokemon like Clefable. Gothitelle is used to patch up holes on Stall teams that have problems with certain Wall or Stallbreakers (i.e. Manaphy) and this strategy cannot really be circumvented by the player holding this key breaker as a win condition. Granted you are capable of running more than one breaker but still. And conversely Gothitelle can remove the most troublesome pokemon on a stall or balance team for offense.

The level of counterplay for Gothitelle is very minimal. Maybe against some offensive teams it isn't going to do much but in certain games it is almost impossible to stop it from accomplishing its task. The highest level of counterplay that really exists is double switching, but the opponent can also wait for a free switch opportunity which will often present itself. Wobbuffet is less of a problem simply because of its limited movepool and can do very little besides trap offensive pokemon and either revenge kill them or turn them into setup fodder with Encore. I still think it's a stupid pokemon simply because your strongest win condition can just be trapped and there's very little you can do about it.

I would support a suspect test, but I don't really think it will give us much insight. Both Shadow Tag abusers are fairly uncommon and a suspect test without them probably will not appear all too different from the current metagame. In my opinion, the ideal scenario here is the council would just decide to ban it kinda like they did with the most recent Baton Pass nerf.

 

[dice]

hoopa-u's one of those dudes that has no real use on ur own team except being a goodstuffs mon which just exacerbates the issue of team matchup. even dudes like manaphy can be tossed on a squad by having the defensive capabilities of having a heatran check. even tho keldeo has a superior defensive typing, u can still work wit a bastardized defensive synergy. i'm not particularly sure if manaphy is healthy for the metagame per se, but at least in my book still formulates 'sound' squads with its usage. the problem with 'goodstuffs' mons is just that they don't really do much for you, but you just want to use it due to it being v strong. hoopa's lack of resists means that its only defensive niche is checking psychics i guess, but das not really supplying much to a squad in that manner esp b.c. mega zam is inevitably just gonna run signal beam anyway. i guess what i'm getting at is that the presence of hoopa-u seemingly necessitated teambuilding around it which has just made the factor of the pregame worse than before. its presence as being Too Good Not To Use yet mostly an objectively inferior dude if you're building for consistency is just a v paradoxical aspect. you're kinda stunting yourself if you're using it, and if you're not using it. even shit like dpp lucario has the virtue of being a steel type. most of the common builds i've seen w. it are reppin like a 5 mon balance core w. hoopa just to try and have some semblance of consistency, or just a yolo ass offense that forgoes any sense of security to cop a win via puttin the hammer down.. the latter is just an effectively dysfunctional mess since an ideal offense still has to be able to efficiently deal with most threats along with having the offensive synergy.. more or less, this dude imo pushes the paradigm of ou into a shallow place given that it creates fundamentally more matchup based games along with the power it packs. the dude can just 1v1 vs most squads at the worst from experience which is hella crazy considering how unimpactful some of the other top mons in ou can be in certain scenarios. this dude's just a lil too much and kinda skews the metagame where i'd just wanna see it banned.

i don't have big opinions on the other dudes b.c. i don't think manaphy is that broken and shadow tag is too inconsistent / rare for me to bother vocalizing my opinion

 

[Tele]

First of all, id like to point out that all of the 3 aforementioned pokemons are strongly matchup depending, in the sense that they can perform incredibly well with little effort but they can also have little to no use (aka be a dead weight); this thing alone is very harmful for the metagame and makes them suspectworthy in my opinion; matchup has also been the biggest issue since xy was released (from a competitive point of view, there is nothing worse than losing at team matchup), because of the increased number of new pokemons released, and the only way to face this problem is banning the more stuff you can. Manaphy may not have been broken 1 year ago, but it is now, as it makes 1 whole playstyle (balance) unviable. Im going to quote a sentence from the 1st post of the thread to prove you:
Most Balance also often carry at least one Pokemon faster than Manaphy to check it reasonably well (Lati@s, Raikou, Tornadus-T, etc).
Most balance often carry at least 1 pokemon faster than manaphy, this is true. But its not enough, because you need at least 2 pokemons faster than manaphy. Take latios: forget for a moment how frail it is, how easily it can be pursuit trapped, of how more popular pursuit metagross is becoming: Draco Meteor is doing 78-90 to offensive manaphy, meaning that if you dont have a faster pokemon in the back, you are fucked. Raikou has very poor usage, its frail, doesnt have any form of recover, can be weakened very fast, wont switch into stuff for ages. Oh and thunderbolt is doing less than dmeteor, probably becos of the phenomenal 100 100 100 defensive stats of manaphy. I laugh at Tornadus the manaphy check, considering you need to hit 3 hurricanes in a row and not even chuck norris can do that.
About shadow tag Gothitelle, i think its a major problem too but not as much as manaphy, thus can definetely be postponed after a potential manaphy or tail glow ban to see how the metagame will look like by then, considering that manaphy itself is one of the biggest reasons to why people use gothitelle on stall (the other reason is just to be annoying and compensate their lack of teambuilding creativity)

 

[baddummy]

Hoopa-U

Im going to have to be really pedantic here, and pick out the term "opportunity cost" mentioned in the OP. It is defined as "the loss of other alternatives when one alternative is chosen." When building with Hoopa-U, it's immediately apparently that this is actually the case, that it does have an opportunity cost, but rather than it not being a mega, which could be another interpretation of "ability to hold an item", it forces you to give up something else. To be clear, I play offence primarily, but when I'm building for it, I'm not just thinking about how I can wear down opposing checks/counters for another pokemon to sweep, I'm also thinking about how I can avoid getting swept by other threats. For example, I frequently use Azumarill on my teams as a DD Char X check, not just because I like how it can fire off powerful stab moves. For Hoopa-U, it really offers very little in terms of defensive synergy, and that is the opportunity cost, using it in place of something that does have good defensive synergy.

For more offensive builds, Hoopa-U isn't broken at all. The key argument here is how restricting it is for defensive teams, nothing more, nothing less. I've always been a believer in trying to keep all playstyles viable, but now I'm not so sure. There's no objective reason why we should do this for a balanced metagame. Let's compare two potential metagames that we could strive to build. Both would have ways to beat each and every individual pokemon, and both would utilise skill, keeping pokemon competitive. Matchup will still be an issue in both, let's not kid ourselves here. The only key difference is that one would be heavily offence based, and one would allow all playstyles. The fact that in both skill is a strong factor, and the game wouldn't be centralised around beating one specific pokemon, because Hoopa-U isn't considered overly tough to beat at all in a matchup vs offence, would still allow the game to be fun and competitive. Bearing that in mind, can you objectively say that one game is worse, or less fun than the other?

I think that Oglemi has a good point in how it does actually ease matchup issues. To be totally blunt about it, if Hoopa-U is common in the metagame, then stall and fat balance aka semi stall builds are two things I don't need to worry about anymore. As for my next point, I've just read Finch's post now, and I realise that this isn't exactly what you said, but it's worth bringing up anyway as a distinction from other anti-ban arguments for suspect pokemon. I don't agree with keeping Hoopa-U falling into the "broken checks broken" argument fallacy. What checks Hoopa-U is anything faster and physical, which shouldn't be too hard to come by. A good example of this argument would be claiming that banning a pokemon like, say, Aegislash, would result in other pokemon being overpowered. This argument is slightly different. There is a clear way for the metagame to adapt to Hoopa-U to make it not broken, and it is not there because otherwise x would be overpowered. It would just be there because it can be there and still allow for a perfectly competitive and fun game.

In any case, it's worth noting that I personally wouldn't mind a metagame where offence was by far the most common playstyle. I suppose that this really falls down to tiering philosophy, whether a pokemon should be banned because keeping all playstyles viable is paramount.

Manaphy

Initially, I'll start off by saying that if you accept my argument for Hoopa staying, that keeping all playstyles viable is not of paramount importance, then it logically follows that even if Manaphy did invalidate stall, then it could also stay.

However, I don't believe that Manaphy does invalidate stall, because it does have ways of dealing with different sets. We could get into circular arguments about how Manaphy can beat different would-be counters with different moves, but those counters that don't wall it if uses this set DO wall it if uses this set, but instead I'm going to raise some different arguments. The fact is that Manaphy can't beat every team with one set, it is simply not possible. When discussing Manaphy, you have to logically accept that it is perfectly possible for a defensive team to have a solid switch-in for the particular Manaphy set that it is facing. TG RD Scald Psychic gets walled by Celebi, TG RD Scald Ice Beam gets walled by Venusaur, and if I don't run RD, then Unaware Clef becomes a decent way of handling it. I will also state the obvious and say that fat teams should not be able to handle every single pokemon perfectly fine, otherwise the meta becomes atrocious.

Manaphy falls into the category of something that has become more and more common with each generation; it is an extremely powerful breaker. I personally believe that we need a good selection of extremely powerful breakers in the metagame, and this is mostly because of some new tools that stall and bulky builds have to deal with basically everything else. I'm not too knowledgable about old gens, but I've gathered this much, that back then it was possible to reliably break stall builds by applying pressure with hazards, and using pokemon with similar checks/counters to wear them down, then sweep with another. Now, this is much more difficult, due to multiple reasons. Hazard removal is more reliable than before, with defog having strong distribution, and Mega Sableye can even stop hazards from going up in the first place. Wearing down pokemon becomes increasingly difficult when they have regenerator. Although it has limited distribution, Unaware can prevent pokemon can setting up effectively in the first place. All in all, I believe that powerful breakers should be considered a necessity in the current metagame.

Furthermore, Manaphy does have an opportunity cost, because it is not particularly effective against offence, and I may be using it in place of a water type that is, such as Keldeo or Azumarill. Often it's made out that Manaphy is just something that can slap on a team and autowin against bulkier builds, but this just isn't true in practice. It requires more thought to build around Manaphy, and to make up for its obvious shortcomings against teams that actually pack a decent number of pokemon with a base speed stat of over 100.

The common myth that Manaphy makes bulky builds too difficult to use is just that: a myth. I'm not going to analyse the current metagame, because that might have shifted in favour of offence due to Hoopa-U, but before it was released, you didn't have to look far to see that bulky builds were actually perfectly viable. They saw good tour usage, collecting decent win rates. They have seen good usage on the ladder for a long time now. For the first week of the Landorus-I suspect ladder, bulky teams were all the rage, and almost everyone with a high gxe used them, it wasn't hard to see why. I don't really see the reason to ban Manaphy when the playstyle that it supposedly hurts so much was actually viable, and I would argue even thrived in a metagame where it was present. Anyone who wants to ban this pokemon should have to back up with sufficient reasoning why a pokemon should be banned in order to help out an already very successful playstyle.

Shadow Tag

Honestly, this seems like a really odd choice for a suspect, the low tour usage should speak for itself. Gothitelle isn't commonly used to shut down defensive teams by offence, on the rare occasions when it is used it is usually on stall to give it a favourable matchup against opposing stall, and also to shut down things like Manaphy and Clefable. Speaking of opportunity cost, I mentioned earlier that Manaphy suffers from not being overly effective against lots of offensive builds. Gothitelle is almost completely useless against offence, to the point where if I did use it, and I don't because of how deadweight it is vs everything other than fat balance aka semi stall or full stall, I would honestly consider at what point I should use it as fodder to give one of my pokemon a free switch-in before I would consider how to best use it against my opponent. This suspect would supposedly help out stall, but actually it would only hurt it by taking away a tool it uses to shut down opposing clerics, or set up sweepers that have low initial power, like Manaphy or Clefable.

 

[Harsha]

I wanted to respond to two key posts that essentially state opposing things.

if the goal of oras ou tiering is to make a balanced and diverse metagame then there's no reason to keep hoopa-u in the tier. the argument that hoopa-u isn't great against offense shouldn't be a reason for it not to be banned (if we're really pretending that scarf is a shitty set, even though offense has no way to switch into mixed scarf).

I think the real important thing to keep in mind when discussing Hoopa-U is: is it really a /bad/ thing that stall/bulky balance may no longer be fully viable? I think it should be considered that maybe Hoopa-U limiting the metagame is a potentially good thing, since a lot of the complaints about ORAS OU before was that there was too much to prepare for and the metagame too wide. Perhaps Hoopa-U making a playstyle hard to use or largely ineffective is a good balancing tool to keep in mind going forward in the discussion. Determining a ban on Hoopa-U will go a long way in hammering out a new definition of what a desirable metagame is.

We haven't hammered out a response to either of these points. I think it's quite clear that Hoopa-U makes stall even more difficult to pull off (though stall is already not the best style).

That said, what is tiering supposed to accomplish? Diversity is not a good thing to aim for, and I think I articulated my thoughts in another thread. Oglemi raises a good point in that Hoopa-U actually can help ORAS OU by limiting the playing field – should we ban it because suddenly we can't play stall anymore?* This reasoning sounds ridiculously selfish: "we don't want to adapt so we'll ban Hoopa-U." If Hoopa-U is some top tier threat that dominates the metagame then of course we'd want it banned. But if it "limits diversity" and "makes stall unviable" then we have a completely ridiculous reason for its banning. This is especially important given that Pokemon is tending towards offense due to the sheer amount of threats that it brings with each generation. Stall will continue to be a worse style without some significant buff in the future.

*There is a problem with this line of thinking. Metagames cycle. People will realize stall is harder to pull off due to Hoopa-U and stop using it, but once stall is gone, you can use more rewarding Pokemon than Hoopa-U. Once Hoopa-U is phased out of the metagame someone will pull off stall and others will see it and think it's the coolest thing ever. Then people will bring back Hoopa-U and this cycle will continue until either something new enters the metagame or this generation ends. Stall will not die due to Hoopa-U and it is ridiculous to think so because Hoopa-U will not be present on every team.

Quite honestly, I don't have an opinion on Hoopa-U in the current metagame. Hoopa-U + already powerful sweepers might be too overwhelming for any team to face. I might even end up being the biggest Hoopa-U hater here because it's ridiculously powerful. However, the reasoning that was presented by so many in this thread is what I primarily wanted to address because it is always brought up whenever a "threat to stall" arises.

 

[Bughouse]

AM is it fair to talk about Shadow Tag in the context of Gengar? With the incoming mega stone -> pokemon shift coming (see recent PR thread), Gengar, not Gengarite, will be banned to Ubers. It seems to me that a ban of Shadow Tag may be desirable in this case. It would enable Gengar to be unbanned, and I think Gengar is a more positive influence on the OU metagame than Gothitelle or Wobbuffet.

Is it fair to view this as a tradeoff, or would Shadow Tag have to be bad enough for the metagame (ignoring the positive of freeing Gengar) for the test to occur?

 

[Magnemite]

AM is it fair to talk about Shadow Tag in the context of Gengar? With the incoming mega stone -> pokemon shift coming (see recent PR thread), Gengar, not Gengarite, will be banned to Ubers. It seems to me that a ban of Shadow Tag may be desirable in this case. It would enable Gengar to be unbanned, and I think Gengar is a more positive influence on the OU metagame than Gothitelle or Wobbuffet.

Is it fair to view this as a tradeoff, or would Shadow Tag have to be bad enough for the metagame (ignoring the positive of freeing Gengar) for the test to occur?

Uhh, you have it backwards. Under the new mega tiering system, things like Charizard will be allowed to drop to lower tiers, and things like Gengar will remain the way they are now. The consensus was to tier them completely separately, not together.

 

[Bughouse]

Uhh, you have it backwards. Under the new mega tiering system, things like Charizard will be allowed to drop to lower tiers, and things like Gengar will remain the way they are now. The consensus was to tier them completely separately, not together.

That's true and so is what I'm saying. Users is not a usage tier. If mega gengar is to be uber, gengar would be as well. Charizard on the other hand can drop.

 

[Slimmer]

That's true and so is what I'm saying. Users is not a usage tier. If mega gengar is to be uber, gengar would be as well. Charizard on the other hand can drop.

Mega Pokémon and regular Pokémon will be tiered differently anyway. That's why Charizard can drop besides Mega Charizard is OU (I don't like this proposal at all - a Mega Pokémon is just a regular Pokémon holding a Mega Stone - but whatever...), so Mega Gengar will be Ubers, Gengar will be OU, like Charizard, or Altaria could drop NU while their mega still stands in OU (that's what I guess, I don't think we should ban regular Kangaskhan or Mawile just because their mega is Ubers, it's not the same thing as Latios OU and Mega Latios UU). I believe this is not the correct place to go further with this discussion, though.

 

[ryan]

This thread has been dead for a while, so I apologize if decisions have already been made on this subject.

It seems that all three of these potential suspects are geared towards increasing the viability of stall and more passive, defensive balanced teams. I don't actually think these will ever be top-tier playstyles in OU because they're at their best against teams that have a difficult time breaking through strong defensive cores. But the top Pokemon in any given meta are usually there because they can do that and more. In NU, you'll find Archeops, Tauros, Sawk, and Xatu in S-rank. None of them are there for their ability to break stall, but all of them can easily do it. Similarly in OU, Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard are both in S-rank. Both of them can do crazy things vs stall, especially given the right support, but both also are or can be good against every playstyle. Tailoring our suspect testing to revitalizing stall will ever end well because stall is almost never very good in any metagame anyways. Tournament play is a different because you're just looking to win one game with any particular team against one player, which means stall can always be a viable option depending on who you're playing against.

I'm pretty much piggybacking off Oglemi's post here. I don't think how something fares against stall should ever have a large influence on whether it not it should be suspected or banned. If Hoopa-U or Manaphy or Gothitelle is good enough against everything that it should be suspected, so be it, but I'd hate to see a Pokemon get kicked out because it makes stall bad when the existence of 30 different individual Pokemon and a million combinations already do that.

 

[Clair]

I'm pretty much piggybacking off Oglemi's post here. I don't think how something fares against stall should ever have a large influence on whether it not it should be suspected or banned. If Hoopa-U or Manaphy or Gothitelle is good enough against everything that it should be suspected, so be it, but I'd hate to see a Pokemon get kicked out because it makes stall bad when the existence of 30 different individual Pokemon and a million combinations already do that.

Let's have a look at this from a different perspective. Let's say this Pokemon gets introduced next generation:

Hypothetical Pokemon
Typing: whatever you like
Stats: 200 HP / 1 Atk / 200 Def / 1 SAtk / 200 SDef / 1 Spe
Ability: unaware / regenerator etc

Said Pokemon has access to status, Perish Song, phazing, recovery, maybe even Magic Coat for Taunt, but nothing else. This Pokemon almost completely invalidates offense when it's used, but can do absolutely nothing to defensively oriented teams. Hence, the metagame quickly becomes dominated by stall, and maybe, as this Pokemon's usage falls, balance.

Would you be okay with this? Would you also be okay, if you suggest banning it, when people tell you there are lots of other things that make offense bad, so there's no point? I'm guessing you wouldn't be. I definitely wouldn't be.

This scenario is almost exactly what Hoopa has done to stall, and really any other slow team. There's just so little counterplay; either you run Mandibuzz and come under enormous pressure to keep SR off (and hope the Hoopa doesn't carry Ice Punch or Thunderbolt), you do stupid stuff like me and use Drapion or Umbreon, or you just try to stop it coming in, predict well and hope for the best.

I'm a defensive-minded player generally, and I'm perfectly happy coping with restrictive threats like Zard-X, M-Medicham, even Manaphy. I'm not so happy about having to accept losses to any scrub using a Hoopa who I don't manage to completely outplay. And I'm definitely very very not happy when people try to justify this situation by saying "it's just stall, it doesn't matter".

Basically, please don't argue like this. Consider instead that there are a huge number of people who enjoy playing stall, and that it has been considered part of a healthy and balanced metagame since forever.

Of course, Gothitelle is just an even more extreme example; it's completely cancerous and needs to go.

 

[p2]

yeah lets ban gothitelle and remove stalls only way of coping with the myriad of threats in OU. I dont see where the logic of banning Gothitelle is coming from because by doing that you make stall infinitely weaker to loads of shit that goth counters by scarf tricking, otherwise which could easily overwhelm stall teams. I mean stall barely has any answers that hard stop Flamethrower Clefable (theres tran, but eh) and it kinda needs goth just to not get swept by that of all things.

point is, I dont get why stall players want goth banned when its a way bigger stall enabler than it is a stallbreaker