Yeah that's basically the conclusion I've reached as well - Scolipede is Uber under the Support Clause.
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Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf
- Thread starter Arcanine is Regal
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Most likely I will sound like a noob, but I have a simple question since I am not much experienced with baton pass.
Isn't Scoliopede the only reason why baton pass is an insanely accessable stragety now compare to the previous generations?
When that is true, than the only way to really nerf baton pass chains by limiting it to 1 or to stop Scoliopede being able to work in baton pass dedicated teams by banning it or not allow it being used with Baton Pass.
Isn't Scoliopede the only reason why baton pass is an insanely accessable stragety now compare to the previous generations?
When that is true, than the only way to really nerf baton pass chains by limiting it to 1 or to stop Scoliopede being able to work in baton pass dedicated teams by banning it or not allow it being used with Baton Pass.
@Stathakis(mini cancer)
Thank you for dedicating time to help prove the point, that some people refuse to accept. I hope what you have done will strengthen our argument for the true nature of baton pass teams, I too will start using this team(when I get some time) and see how far I can go, and hopefully convince a few more people. I encourage everyone to try this team because you will quickly
After reading all these comments it seems clear that baton pass is still very good,(borderline broken), and no doubt it goes against what we have grown accustom to expecting in a balance meta. So there are no more points I can make that havent been made, so I will just put my money where my mouth is and use a broken team to get near the top ladder just like mini cancer did, and hopefully that will help. In the meantime there is nothing else we can do but wait and see if it gets worse or better.
Thank you for dedicating time to help prove the point, that some people refuse to accept. I hope what you have done will strengthen our argument for the true nature of baton pass teams, I too will start using this team(when I get some time) and see how far I can go, and hopefully convince a few more people. I encourage everyone to try this team because you will quickly
This is exactly why everyone doesnt use it, all the top players I know have tried baton pass at some point and decided that it was either mind-numbingly boring to use, or just preferred the typical team that actually requires strategy and skill to use. What people forget is that this is a pokemon simulator, ladder ranking means nothing. The purpose of the site is not to win and be #1 on some arbitrary ladder, it is to test out teams and practice so that in actual tournaments or wifi events you know what pokemon you want on your team. For example denisss and costa have been #1 back and forth sooo much, and what do they have to show for it? Not trying to take away their accomplishment because it is impressive, but im just saying people are on this site to learn and have fun, so I am afraid I need another reason as to why everyone would swarm to using a boring, broken strat in order to top an arbitrary ladder that means nothing.
After reading all these comments it seems clear that baton pass is still very good,(borderline broken), and no doubt it goes against what we have grown accustom to expecting in a balance meta. So there are no more points I can make that havent been made, so I will just put my money where my mouth is and use a broken team to get near the top ladder just like mini cancer did, and hopefully that will help. In the meantime there is nothing else we can do but wait and see if it gets worse or better.
I'm still not convinced that Scolipede's quickpassing skeelz warrants it being suspected, not even in combination with the current panic over 3BP. Part of the reason why is that Deoxys-S (and Deoxys-D, to a lesser extent) is probably suspect with the bigger impact, and we need to see first if taking out the Deoxyses would balance the meta (which should be our main goal - nerfing BP is just a happy coincidence in this case). And another part of it is that quickpassing is too similar to boosting in my opinion that no decent team should go around without a way to deal with it.
Since it's introduction, Baton Passing has always had a little niche in the metagame. Scolipede's access to Speed Boost spiked the usage of Baton Pass, but isn't really what makes a Baton Pass team. Nerfing it down to one Baton Pass is pretty stupid. Some teams will get a high boost on a single Pokemon, and Baton Pass that sole boosting around their team, and these would get shut down entirely. Baton Pass in general would also be next to completely pointless, and knocking multiple Pokemon down to lower tiers.
The Best Baton Passers :3
Scolipede - Speed Boost, Swords Dance, Iron Defense
Ninjask - Speed Boost, Swords Dance
Mawile - Swords Dance, Iron Defense
Mew - Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Iron Defense, Agility, Nasty Plot, Amnesia, exc...
Celebi - Calm Mind, Nasty Plot
Scyther / Scizor - Swords Dance, Agility, Iron Defense
Gligar / Gliscor - Swords Dance, Rock Polish
Combusken / Blaziken - Speed Boost, Swords Dance
Medicham - Swords Dance, Acupressure, Bulk Up
Volbeat - Tail Glow
Absol - Swords Dance, Agility
Durant - Swords Dance, Iron Defense
Halucha - Swords Dance, Agility
Keep in mind that these are not all viable threats alone. Most of these need to have 2-4 other Baton Passers alongside to give them bulk.
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To add to that stall has no chance as well agaist this new playstyle. Sure you may have Haze quag but it will be worn down and gg.
I usually try to not to get into these kinds of debates but I just wanna say that this team is not as mindless as the previous. I battle in the 1800s and I just faced three players each using this new BP team. One was Arcanine is Regal, the other I don't remember and Denissss. I was easily able to beat the first two players by applying pressure with Thundurus in conjuction with Charizard X but then when I faced Denissss it was as if the level of play just ten folded. He knows what we're thinking and thus predicts us and as such he has 'skill' and it also not centralizing. People say that this new BP team is not beatable yet I am able to beat normal players with this team quite easily but lose to Denissss. So what if he is actually a good player and this is just a new playstyle that now you must account for similar to the other threats in the game.
Yeah, I dont remember battling you. But I just started using this team, and dont have the months and months of experience denisss does, but that being said I just beat denis on ladder using the team. Pretty much proving that the team forces 50/50s and not skill. I am so tired of thinking winning a 50/50 prediction equates to skill.
I don't think the "so few players" argument is using the "if it's broken, why doesn't everyone use it" argument. I would agree that this is not really a good argument under those circumstances, partially because many players utilize bp just to get quick reqs on suspect ladders. However, I think you are misjudging the argument's substance. To me, the argument is that because so few players have had success on ladder, we can attribute their victories to their skill rather than the team itself. As we speak, people are trying to ladder with the "Neo-bp" team, and most of them are failing because they cannot make the predictions Denis makes reliably enough to beat better players.
I don't have the replay but you used Gardevoir instead of Vaporeon if I recall correctly, maybe it wasn't you. Anyway, yes 50/50 is 'skill'. It takes a top player to recognise the opposing player's pattern of plays and try to predict accordingly. For example, if you are playing a player that chooses to attack rather than switch, you realize that your opponent likes to play aggresive and thus you change your plays accordingly. So let's say you are playing the aggresive player. You have LO Mamoswine at 22% and the other guy has a Landorus at 54% out against you and a 36% Scizor left. You also have Charizard X at 52%. Now this is a tricky situation because if you ice shard and he switches in Scizor, then you won't KO and he can kill you with Bullet Punch and then his Landorus can finish off Charizard X. If you EQ with Mamoswine and he decides to stay in, he can Earth Power his way to victory. So you must pick between EQ and Ice Shard. Now it takes a good player to recognise the player's tendency to switch or even realize that the other player can also break his pattern. This situation happened to me two days ago and I EQed as he switched into Scizor. I recognized that the cost of his Landorus staying in for higher for him and EQed. So no just because a situation becomes 50/50 doesn't mean that there is a lack of skill, because without prediction in the game it would simply come down to who can build the best team rather than who plays the best with said teams.
Bit off topic, but even smogon tournies I believe don't give out prizes. Neither do most wi-fi events. Only tournies with prizes to my knowledge are VGC which is irrelevant to this. A lot of players I know want to reach the top of the ladder and rank 1 is the epitome of that. tourny players may win like 7 games with their team, but ladder players can win 100+ with only few losses. Which seems more impressive.
While not definite, ladder results imo should play a big part in what gets banned. Last I checked top of ladder was swarmed with rain, HO, and stall/semi stall teams. Only a couple baton pass teams up there. If it really was such a broken strategy I feel there would be more up their. If you and more people feel you can top ladder with it, I feel that would be a great way to demonstrate its brokenness, in the mean type go suspect deos, thundurus, Zards, or Aegis and give these mini chains time to settle.
It's not that impressive when your average ladder player is awful.
Fair point, but not all tourney players are good either. But in both tourney and ladders you play better and better players the more you win. By the time you get to around 1700 it becomes quite hard to win. Winning a large number of games at this level with few loses takes a lot of skill and a good team also. I do not believe baton pass can win more consistently at this level than other teams and those that do win with baton pass are just good battlers and most likely be successful with other teams.
Deoxys forms are the ones giving the new age baton pass teams vital support that makes their jobs a lot easier and make it harder for the opposing team to disrupt them. I'd say to to their power with respect to other playstyles, that they are the ones that should be tested first. If BP is still too degenerate without them, we can go forth and do something about it.
As of right now, just waiting and letting the meta settle is the best option.
As of right now, just waiting and letting the meta settle is the best option.
Not to be cocky or anything but 1700 isnt hard to win, this is one of the first games I started using BP on....it literally automatically won me the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133152748
The ladder doesnt get truly competitive until 1800 imo.
Just cause you got won one game by forfeit doesn't mean much.
I do agree there is quite a skill gap between 1700 and 1800, but still quite a few good players in that range due to ladder decay and its not like 1700 players are scrubs or anything. Only bout 150 players are above 1800. I'd like to believe more than that number of ladder players are good battlers.
Smog Frog Espeon is important to BP, yes, but Scolipede enables Espeon much harder then Espeon enables Scolipede, which hints to me that Scolipede is more likely to be the broken aspect. Without Espeon, Scolipede can still pass iron defense to something like SD megazard-X and have a nigh unstoppable sweeper. Espeon without scolipede, however, is at best an exceedingly good stallbreaker and near worthless against offensive teams without a defense boost. For this reason, I believe scolipede is probably the broken element in BP, not espeon.
the-bumper-car I agree and disagree. I agree that the deos should be suspected (and maybe thundy too, if he doesn't belong in this meta, I want to know that before the next BP suspect because atm he is one of the best scolipede checks out there), before we do any BP related suspects. I do however think Scolipede should be suspected though eventually, because as you know I think he is the broken element.
the-bumper-car I agree and disagree. I agree that the deos should be suspected (and maybe thundy too, if he doesn't belong in this meta, I want to know that before the next BP suspect because atm he is one of the best scolipede checks out there), before we do any BP related suspects. I do however think Scolipede should be suspected though eventually, because as you know I think he is the broken element.
I think that the best option is banning Speed Boost + Iron Defense + Baton Pass on the same set. These three moves are what make it so easy for Baton Pass to get off to a good start and win. Without the defensive boost from iron defense Espeon will have a much harder time functioning along with the rest of the baton pass team. This would mean that it would take a little more skill to succeed with a bp team instead of just following the "formula" that essentially takes hardly skill to use.
Deoxys S and Deoxys D also need a suspect test.
Deoxys S and Deoxys D also need a suspect test.
...or just the third option, which was "Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban)."
To start off I just want to point out that I have not played on the OU ladder during BP's prime as well as not having any big titles in OU to my name as it is. But I'd like to point out my ideas even though I may not be as credible.
From what I've read in this thread, I think it's safe to conclude that BP's strongest piece is Scolipede. He abuses the idea of "free turns" and the teams he's used on benefit so much from it as a result. This could possibly lead to a core focus of BP teams: how well can you give Scolipede free turns to boost? With the recent limitations to BP this only centralizes the goal even more. Would it be an issue that BP is overly reliant on Scolipede, to an extent where it may be overcentalized?
On another note, Scolipede reminds me of another Poke that has been deemed too strong for standard play, and that is Blaziken. Whereas Blaziken's strengths are very apparent as a sweeper, Scolipede's power is hard to see on paper. In an old discussion I had with a friend about B/W, we mentioned that Blaziken had access to Baton Pass, which makes the Poke very threatening if used offensively for BP. However, that idea was overshadowed since Blaziken's raw base numbers (both on his moves and his attack) was threatening enough and that would be enough to warrant his ban. But we wondered how well he would function otherwise if not for his raw power, and with that we concluded this: if given 1 free turn Blaziken, as well as his BP recipients, can potentially sweep entire teams. Of course everyone knows that, but what was scarier to us was the unlimited potential if passed, which was naturally overlooked on Blaziken since he was powerful enough. One could make a similar argument about Ninjask, but seriously Ninjask can't get a free turn if his life depended on it (literally, lol).
Enter Scolipede, which doesn't have the power that would rival Blaziken, but instead has a stronger BP potential. Now, I understand that Blaziken was banned for his ability to nearly sweep the entire metagame, but if that wasn't the case would we have banned him for his ability to pass those stats? If, hypothetically, Blaziken's offence was overlooked, would his access to Swords Dance (Bulk Up?), Speed Boost, Baton Pass, as well as the ability to force switches nabbing a free turn be too strong for OU during the B/W era?
Scolipede is in a similar situation, but instead of offensive passing he passes defense. Given any form of free turns, such as what happened in the replay, then you've essentially neutered all physical threats the more boosts attained as well as accelerating stat gains from abusing Speed Boost. Would anyone argue that this form of support is too strong coming from any Poke?
If I had a say in BP's "nerf", I would've just banned Scolipede as a solution. The Poke is the reason why BP works, he gains stats incredibly fast and essentially invalidates physical attackers doing so. Then again, I'm just another person with another opinion.
From what I've read in this thread, I think it's safe to conclude that BP's strongest piece is Scolipede. He abuses the idea of "free turns" and the teams he's used on benefit so much from it as a result. This could possibly lead to a core focus of BP teams: how well can you give Scolipede free turns to boost? With the recent limitations to BP this only centralizes the goal even more. Would it be an issue that BP is overly reliant on Scolipede, to an extent where it may be overcentalized?
On another note, Scolipede reminds me of another Poke that has been deemed too strong for standard play, and that is Blaziken. Whereas Blaziken's strengths are very apparent as a sweeper, Scolipede's power is hard to see on paper. In an old discussion I had with a friend about B/W, we mentioned that Blaziken had access to Baton Pass, which makes the Poke very threatening if used offensively for BP. However, that idea was overshadowed since Blaziken's raw base numbers (both on his moves and his attack) was threatening enough and that would be enough to warrant his ban. But we wondered how well he would function otherwise if not for his raw power, and with that we concluded this: if given 1 free turn Blaziken, as well as his BP recipients, can potentially sweep entire teams. Of course everyone knows that, but what was scarier to us was the unlimited potential if passed, which was naturally overlooked on Blaziken since he was powerful enough. One could make a similar argument about Ninjask, but seriously Ninjask can't get a free turn if his life depended on it (literally, lol).
Enter Scolipede, which doesn't have the power that would rival Blaziken, but instead has a stronger BP potential. Now, I understand that Blaziken was banned for his ability to nearly sweep the entire metagame, but if that wasn't the case would we have banned him for his ability to pass those stats? If, hypothetically, Blaziken's offence was overlooked, would his access to Swords Dance (Bulk Up?), Speed Boost, Baton Pass, as well as the ability to force switches nabbing a free turn be too strong for OU during the B/W era?
Scolipede is in a similar situation, but instead of offensive passing he passes defense. Given any form of free turns, such as what happened in the replay, then you've essentially neutered all physical threats the more boosts attained as well as accelerating stat gains from abusing Speed Boost. Would anyone argue that this form of support is too strong coming from any Poke?
If I had a say in BP's "nerf", I would've just banned Scolipede as a solution. The Poke is the reason why BP works, he gains stats incredibly fast and essentially invalidates physical attackers doing so. Then again, I'm just another person with another opinion.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Let's see the definition of "Support Clause":
Scolipede does indeed fit the criteria, at least when it comes to BP chain teams. Is Scolipede really that good even in QuickPass teams?
I built a quick-pass team around Scoli + Espeon + Clefable at the start of the suspect test to see if Scoli was any good at doing this, and he is. Passing defense and speed to a CM booster that has a reliable recovery move (especially ones with powerful and complimentary abilities like Magic Bounce and Unaware) is indeed a strong strategy. That team is the one in my sig, and the other 3 mons in the team are designed to synergize well with the rest of the team (Band Tar for T-Flame, Keldeo for Bisharp, Ditto to counter other BP teams and sweepers that may have gotten out of hand). I definitely wouldn't call it broken though, it's just a powerful strategy that needs to be planned for like any other for the most part.
So a quick little progress report, I am around the mid 1800's using baton pass(which should already prove that the team can autowin its way to top 100). And I will keep going until I feel I am high enough to have proved somewhat of a point. But even though I am laddering with good intentions, here are some things I have learned about baton pass.
1. Everybody who I ever talked to on Pokemon Showdown, completely hates me now because I'm using bp
2. Nobody feels like they got outplayed when they lose to Baton Pass
3. Baton Pass is still formulaic and wins off matchup
So I am not going to lie and say I just started using it and won every game, I have lost a few times, Im not sure exactly how many but lets ballpark it and say my record with baton pass is about 30-10, I will name all of things that have beaten me thus far,
Ive lost about 5 times to crits.... so thats annoying, but not a "counter" to bp so it still helps prove my point
1 game to a haze honchkrow(Kinda touchin on that obscure counters arent we?)
2 times to taunt thundurus
1 time to denisss(I beat him twice)
1 time to taunt mega gyara(because I derped and forgot about moldbreaker lol)
I have also lost to aegislash, mainly because they are so unpredictable. Like the whole team kinda hates switching into a shadow ball, and if I go to smeargle and they predict that they can flash cannon or sword. So aegislash might be considered a counter to the particuar team I am using. The best set is sub/flash cannon/shadow ball/? Idk what his last move was but it was very hard to beat. (I didnt beat it lol)
I have lose more than ten times, but this is ajust a sample of how BP teams lose, and I thought Id throw it up there, the most important thing I want you guys to take away is that seriously the best counter to the new Baton Pass team is to crit them. This means that statistically the best answer to this "legitimate" playstyle is to hax it to death, that doesnt exactly seem to healthy for the metagame. Hopefully my next post will be me hitting top 10 and having more info to share with you guys but as of right now I am #56 which isnt too bad, for using the same formula every game.
Edit: I forgot to point out what counters did not work at all against BP, those included psych-up(because in the turn they use psych up they just get killed or 2hkod), any defensive mon with haze, infiltator switcharoo noivern, these were dedicated counters to baton pass and still didnt work on someone whose been using baton pass for just over a day.
1. Everybody who I ever talked to on Pokemon Showdown, completely hates me now because I'm using bp
2. Nobody feels like they got outplayed when they lose to Baton Pass
3. Baton Pass is still formulaic and wins off matchup
So I am not going to lie and say I just started using it and won every game, I have lost a few times, Im not sure exactly how many but lets ballpark it and say my record with baton pass is about 30-10, I will name all of things that have beaten me thus far,
Ive lost about 5 times to crits.... so thats annoying, but not a "counter" to bp so it still helps prove my point
1 game to a haze honchkrow(Kinda touchin on that obscure counters arent we?)
2 times to taunt thundurus
1 time to denisss(I beat him twice)
1 time to taunt mega gyara(because I derped and forgot about moldbreaker lol)
I have also lost to aegislash, mainly because they are so unpredictable. Like the whole team kinda hates switching into a shadow ball, and if I go to smeargle and they predict that they can flash cannon or sword. So aegislash might be considered a counter to the particuar team I am using. The best set is sub/flash cannon/shadow ball/? Idk what his last move was but it was very hard to beat. (I didnt beat it lol)
I have lose more than ten times, but this is ajust a sample of how BP teams lose, and I thought Id throw it up there, the most important thing I want you guys to take away is that seriously the best counter to the new Baton Pass team is to crit them. This means that statistically the best answer to this "legitimate" playstyle is to hax it to death, that doesnt exactly seem to healthy for the metagame. Hopefully my next post will be me hitting top 10 and having more info to share with you guys but as of right now I am #56 which isnt too bad, for using the same formula every game.
Edit: I forgot to point out what counters did not work at all against BP, those included psych-up(because in the turn they use psych up they just get killed or 2hkod), any defensive mon with haze, infiltator switcharoo noivern, these were dedicated counters to baton pass and still didnt work on someone whose been using baton pass for just over a day.
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
Ok so guys, I really hate the idea of banning scolipede. Why? Because he's actually good outside of BP. Just ban magic bounce+BP or iron defense+speed boost+BP. Just attack the problem at its core, fuck the collateral.
EDIT: while i may sound contradictory, just focus the collateral on the overall shittier mon.
EDIT: while i may sound contradictory, just focus the collateral on the overall shittier mon.
Just laddered with a Neo-Bp team for a bit, was boring as fuck so I stopped before I could really reach a decent ladder ranking but honestly the third option was the only legit option and idk why people didn't vote for that. We all know Espeon is completely unviable in OU outside of BP chains, so the odds that you are going to see MB Espeon + SB Scolipede on one team that is not a BP chain team are about zero. I think this is the best way to go about things. Alternatively, we can also just ban Denissss
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