I still say the Ravens aren't even making the playoffs. If they do it's as a 6th seed wild card. I think 10-6 is the cutoff point for playoff team or not this season in the AFC.
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The Everything Eli Manning Thread - Overrated Edition
- Thread starter DM
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Love how people are writing off the Ravens with absolutely no knowledge of our players. Almost all our key contributors last season aren't even in their prime yet (including our oft maligned QB) and yet people think we're gonna struggle to make the playoffs? Lol keep thinking that guys.
I will continue to write off the Ravens as long as they have Joe Flacco at QB. The Ravens are an amazing team, they really are, but Flacco is holding them back much in the same way Alex Smith is holding back the 49ers. You say he's "not in his prime" yet, but what is his prime even going to be like? He's going to be painfully average his whole career, and he's never going to make that jump to elite. He just doesn't have that extra something that differentiates the decent QBs from the great ones.
Also Stallion I think a lot of people are writing off the Ravens because of Suggs. Suggs was the one generating all the pressure from the linebacker position last year, so losing him exposes the glaring weakness of the other LBs (except Lewis, who is still a boss). Not to mention having yet another new DC will affect their style. The moral leadership of guys like Reed and Lewis is only going to carry them so far. I see them still making the playoffs, but probably as a wild card and losing in the first or second round. Much in the same way the Steelers will =/.
Also DM I kind of disagree with calling the Jets "on the cusp". They are backsliding yes, but they are no longer on the cusp as they were 2-3 years ago. I'd even be bold enough to say they come in last in their division this year, finishing 6-10 behind the 8-8 Dolphins, 10-6 Bills and 11-5 Patriots. I also think it's too early to lock the Bengals in as a playoff caliber team. I think they are still kind of in the third category in your post. Your assessment of the Steelers and Ravens is dead on though, which could open up that division for the Bengals to take it if Dalton doesn't slump.
Also Stallion I think a lot of people are writing off the Ravens because of Suggs. Suggs was the one generating all the pressure from the linebacker position last year, so losing him exposes the glaring weakness of the other LBs (except Lewis, who is still a boss). Not to mention having yet another new DC will affect their style. The moral leadership of guys like Reed and Lewis is only going to carry them so far. I see them still making the playoffs, but probably as a wild card and losing in the first or second round. Much in the same way the Steelers will =/.
Also DM I kind of disagree with calling the Jets "on the cusp". They are backsliding yes, but they are no longer on the cusp as they were 2-3 years ago. I'd even be bold enough to say they come in last in their division this year, finishing 6-10 behind the 8-8 Dolphins, 10-6 Bills and 11-5 Patriots. I also think it's too early to lock the Bengals in as a playoff caliber team. I think they are still kind of in the third category in your post. Your assessment of the Steelers and Ravens is dead on though, which could open up that division for the Bengals to take it if Dalton doesn't slump.
What's the stat... something like "For the past 16 seasons at least 5 playoff teams of the previous year did not make the playoffs the following year."
Basically I just have the Ravens as part of my 5. Joe Flacco is terrible, and that Defense got gutted with injuries and trades, and there are no huge upsides that can be immediately identified. Things don't look outstandingly strong there.
Basically I just have the Ravens as part of my 5. Joe Flacco is terrible, and that Defense got gutted with injuries and trades, and there are no huge upsides that can be immediately identified. Things don't look outstandingly strong there.
Good pick. Only thing that scares me is their damn owner.
Anyways, are the Steelers starting their rookies game 1? Not really sure how the Steelers offense stacks up against the Bengals defense but having BB still means something. So i give the division to them. However it is unlikely any team gets more than 10 wins this year. All of them (INCLUDING the Browns) are very evenly matched and have to play the NFC East(to not get off topic).The Steelers defense is still pretty good and they have the best qb in the division so yeah.
Wouldn't mind or be surprised if the Browns actually beat one of these teams this year. My guess would be the Bengals or Ravens.
i feel like the steelers offense will make strides this season, assuming the OL draft picks pan out. i don't know how i feel about the defense though, farrior and smith are both gone. although they weren't the big name stat guys, they played very important roles that allowed guys like harrison and polamalu to do what makes them famous.
i don't understand the bengals hype. they went 2-4 in the division last year and were swept by both the ravens and the steelers... and played the AFC South and NFC West... if i had to pick 5 teams to not make the playoffs, they are the very first team on that list. i'm pretty sure every victory was against a team that ended with a losing record... and you expect them to improve on this against the AFC West and NFC East? even if you believe the steelers and ravens are on the decline (good luck sweeping either of those teams) i will be impressed if they make it to 8-8.
i don't understand the bengals hype. they went 2-4 in the division last year and were swept by both the ravens and the steelers... and played the AFC South and NFC West... if i had to pick 5 teams to not make the playoffs, they are the very first team on that list. i'm pretty sure every victory was against a team that ended with a losing record... and you expect them to improve on this against the AFC West and NFC East? even if you believe the steelers and ravens are on the decline (good luck sweeping either of those teams) i will be impressed if they make it to 8-8.
The Bengals hype is coming from the fact that while they got swept by the Ravens and Steelers last year, they were starting a Rookie QB and Rookie WR, and were still very close to beating their division opponents. Their Defense is young and VERY good, and they're Offense is young and getting better. Sure, they didn't beat a team with a winning Record, but neither did the Patriots, and they went to the Super Bowl. Football isn't black and white, the teams with winning records aren't necessarily better than the ones with losing records on every given Sunday.
As we all know our glorious and beloved NFC East is great, but they are not infallible. AFC West? Who cares? Maybe the Chiefs and Broncos are a threat, but the Chargers and Raiders? Average on their best days next year.
Back in division, the Browns are almost two guaranteed wins and the Ravens are on poor footing going into next year and the Bengals have the Defense capable of winning against the Baltimore Ray Rice's. I say Steelers still win the division, but the Bengals have the potential to be 6th seed wildcard again.
P.S. Steelers Defense is fine. The guys lost were solid role players, but role players are a dime a dozen.
Ravens have been good almost every year for like 14 years (3 seasons badly executed), the Bengals have been good about 4-5 years. Why are you so attached to the idea of the Ravens = dead Bengals = young and good? Bengals are saddled with a bad quarterback and inept coaching. The Texans slaughtered them with their third string quarterback, the second straight year the Bengals were absolutely slaughtered come playoff time. They just have no real edges over other teams.
Which goes to show you how "great" Schaub(happy?) is.
some hero, your intentional misspellings of words are not funny. We all know you know how to spell, so kindly do so. This joke was played out from your very first post, so I'd appreciate if you stop beating the dead horse.
To stay on topic, I actually agree that Schaub is not really a "great" QB. To me, he's a solid starter that is above average and is consistent, like a Matt Ryan. He is not, however, an elite QB that could thrive in any environment or carry his team. Schaub I think has benefited greatly from an amazing offensive line (best in the league, IMO), and an effective offensive scheme. Not to mention he has a top 3 WR in Andre Johnson. Factor in the powerful running game that makes the play action pathetically easy to execute, and you have the perfect environment for even a mid-tier QB to thrive. Schaub has really only had two good years (2009, 2010) and only one of those two is even arguably great (2009). To me, a QB must have more than one great year before they can be considered great, and Schaub has not achieved that yet. Perhaps he will reach that status eventually, but he needs to consistently stay healthy to have a chance at that.
To stay on topic, I actually agree that Schaub is not really a "great" QB. To me, he's a solid starter that is above average and is consistent, like a Matt Ryan. He is not, however, an elite QB that could thrive in any environment or carry his team. Schaub I think has benefited greatly from an amazing offensive line (best in the league, IMO), and an effective offensive scheme. Not to mention he has a top 3 WR in Andre Johnson. Factor in the powerful running game that makes the play action pathetically easy to execute, and you have the perfect environment for even a mid-tier QB to thrive. Schaub has really only had two good years (2009, 2010) and only one of those two is even arguably great (2009). To me, a QB must have more than one great year before they can be considered great, and Schaub has not achieved that yet. Perhaps he will reach that status eventually, but he needs to consistently stay healthy to have a chance at that.
Certainly Dalton is bad if you hold extremist opinions that allow no wiggle room and demands everyone to be great or else they're terrible. Dalton as a Rookie performed perfectly well enough in a way that shows a lot of promise. If he improves over the next few years he can become a very good QB. He might not, but I don't know.
Inept Coaching? Maybe on Offense, I'll believe that, but they're still a top 10 Defense with no real big name talent (Geno Atkins is the closest thing, but his name actually isn't that big, but the talent and production is). The Bengals overall have talent, are showing cohesion and ability to win, and haven't hit their primes. That's almost a guarantee for future success.
Second straight year they were slaughtered in the playoffs? Oh wait they were 4-12 last year didn't make the Playoffs. Made it in 2009 under Carson Palmer and Chad Ochocinco, and that was almost a completely different team so irrelevant argument to make. If you want to say that you expected a better fight maybe you should realize that the Bengals strength of Pass Rush doesn't really work well when a team is using their Third String QB and they don't want him to pass often, but when he does he has the best Pass Blocking OLine in the business to protect him. The Bengals also weren't particularly the best at breaking down good run blocking which allowed Arian foster to carry the ball 24 times for 153 yards, 102 of them before even being hit by a Defensive player. I don't hold a failure to deal with one of the best OLines of recent memory so much against them that I say they're future success is doomed.
Also, I don't say the Ravens are dead, I just think they don't make the playoffs this year. Next year is different as is the year after that. Success is fickle in the NFL, and it takes true talent to stay consistently bad.
Other than the Jets and Bengals being so high, I agree with DM's list. The Jets were 8-8 last season and they got worse while everyone in their division got better. Plus, fuck the Jets. As a Patriots fan I laugh when anyone gives the Jets credibility.
The Bengals are still a middling wild card contender, I don't see what's changed since last season. Dalton + Green got a year older but that also means opposing coaches have one more year of film on them. I agree with CaptKirby that they still lack any notable advantage over the other AFC playoff contenders, even if "bad" is a really strong word to describe Dalton. I'd use "average" at best.
The Ravens are a puzzle to me. They're stable, have great coaching, and there's something to be said about a team with guts like that. But I really don't think that offense is good enough to win 3-4 playoff games. Flacco has been garbage for years, Ray Rice is past his peak (but still excellent), they only have one wide receiver and a guy who can only run a Go route, and no tight ends...I don't think they can win on guts alone. Not to mention that their best defensive players aren't just old, but considering retirement. They're still a playoff team as of today but I don't think they're as legit as Stallion seems to.
Yeah that sounds spot on. He's only considered "great" by the tuesday morning champion fantasy football types, but in reality he is carried by the spectacular talent around him. I could be a starting NFL QB if I was throwing the ball to Andre Johnson with the option of handing the ball off to Arian Foster. Ok maybe not literally but you know what I'm getting at. Schaub is above average numbers-wise but the Texans almost got to the AFC championship game with their 3rd string QB. I'm not impressed by him.
The Bengals are still a middling wild card contender, I don't see what's changed since last season. Dalton + Green got a year older but that also means opposing coaches have one more year of film on them. I agree with CaptKirby that they still lack any notable advantage over the other AFC playoff contenders, even if "bad" is a really strong word to describe Dalton. I'd use "average" at best.
The Ravens are a puzzle to me. They're stable, have great coaching, and there's something to be said about a team with guts like that. But I really don't think that offense is good enough to win 3-4 playoff games. Flacco has been garbage for years, Ray Rice is past his peak (but still excellent), they only have one wide receiver and a guy who can only run a Go route, and no tight ends...I don't think they can win on guts alone. Not to mention that their best defensive players aren't just old, but considering retirement. They're still a playoff team as of today but I don't think they're as legit as Stallion seems to.
Yeah that sounds spot on. He's only considered "great" by the tuesday morning champion fantasy football types, but in reality he is carried by the spectacular talent around him. I could be a starting NFL QB if I was throwing the ball to Andre Johnson with the option of handing the ball off to Arian Foster. Ok maybe not literally but you know what I'm getting at. Schaub is above average numbers-wise but the Texans almost got to the AFC championship game with their 3rd string QB. I'm not impressed by him.
Valkyries, Dalton might improve this season. Since he was already 24 coming into the league and played poorly, I am going to assume he is not going to improve very much. So what if it was not Tavaris Jackson level poor, that team is going to stall out into 150 yard playoff games again from their passing offense because he is inadequate.
2009, whatever. Same bad team strategy - relentlessly rush Benson for failed first downs, cater to defense in a conference where they are outmatched on defense, get outmatched on defense and offense in the playoffs. Not a single fucking thing changed.
Schaub has been good. 2009 and 2010 are the only seasons Schaub played complete seasons...are you just looking at his statistics to analyze and missing that fact or just actually consider getting injured as affecting what type of season you had? He might be someone you could call injury prone at this point, but I think it has been bad luck. The only full season Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub have played together has been 2009, settle down with the bold declarations about analyzing his career, we need more full seasons out of him.
Great versus "good" is semantic and not that important. No one is saying Schaub is elite OR on the cusp of being elite. Nothing indicates he can be elite. That does not matter much when you can bring 4500 yards and a ridiculously efficient rate to the table, he was on pace for like 24 TD 10 INT and 4000 yards this year which is always fine. Considering how relentlessly they have run the last few years, it takes numbers off the table for him in my opinion. It is hard to reconcile "does it help him or hurt him more", and I do not really care to try to analyze something like that. Just remember that Houston had the #1 and T-#3 most rushing TDs the last two years, so treating his TD numbers being low like a huge problem is a little off. He is part of the team with the current best mix of offense and defense in the league, and the team could only get 170 passing yards a game in the playoffs. That was with a rookie, but Schaub would have that number at least at 220 per game.
2009, whatever. Same bad team strategy - relentlessly rush Benson for failed first downs, cater to defense in a conference where they are outmatched on defense, get outmatched on defense and offense in the playoffs. Not a single fucking thing changed.
Schaub has been good. 2009 and 2010 are the only seasons Schaub played complete seasons...are you just looking at his statistics to analyze and missing that fact or just actually consider getting injured as affecting what type of season you had? He might be someone you could call injury prone at this point, but I think it has been bad luck. The only full season Andre Johnson and Matt Schaub have played together has been 2009, settle down with the bold declarations about analyzing his career, we need more full seasons out of him.
Great versus "good" is semantic and not that important. No one is saying Schaub is elite OR on the cusp of being elite. Nothing indicates he can be elite. That does not matter much when you can bring 4500 yards and a ridiculously efficient rate to the table, he was on pace for like 24 TD 10 INT and 4000 yards this year which is always fine. Considering how relentlessly they have run the last few years, it takes numbers off the table for him in my opinion. It is hard to reconcile "does it help him or hurt him more", and I do not really care to try to analyze something like that. Just remember that Houston had the #1 and T-#3 most rushing TDs the last two years, so treating his TD numbers being low like a huge problem is a little off. He is part of the team with the current best mix of offense and defense in the league, and the team could only get 170 passing yards a game in the playoffs. That was with a rookie, but Schaub would have that number at least at 220 per game.
I think my assessment was a bit misunderstood. To be brief, I was not saying that his TD numbers were "low" by any means, nor was I even using his TDs as an indicator of skill (a certain terrible QB who threw for 27 TD/7 INT one season comes to mind, reminding us how this stat can be misleading). The argument I was simply making was that his system, I believe, has allowed him to thrive and made his numbers better. I actually believe the strong running game has aided him rather than hindered him, as he's always had a pretty high number of attempts/game. The running game benefits him by causing defenses to adjust to it, making the play action so easy to pull off even one of us could do it. When you couple a threatening running game with a competent passer and elite receiver, you get a formidable big-play threat on almost any down. I also agree that we need to see more complete seasons from him before we can judge, which is part of my point - people who claim he's great (not necessarily on here, just in general) I believe are a bit misguided.
Well the Texans rushing #s were low before the last two years at least as far as TDs go, I did not cite it because in my head it was not an important point for some reason, but it is relevant after all - I think that it means that his numbers seem not to be impacted by the run game very much.
I just do not know why you think people are so misguided was what my whole thing was about. He is better than Eli Manning, and people are all over Manning's nuts because his team won another championship. People are always going to hype every player every way to sunday because it gets boring to hype just the 6-7 that we know are definitely 100% great.
I just do not know why you think people are so misguided was what my whole thing was about. He is better than Eli Manning, and people are all over Manning's nuts because his team won another championship. People are always going to hype every player every way to sunday because it gets boring to hype just the 6-7 that we know are definitely 100% great.
We all know you are a Cowboy homer(but since they suck are forced to hype other teams), but put that kool aid down for a little bit. In Schaub's best season, these were his stats: 29/15 4770 67%. And that was with a good OL, AJ and a running game. Eli's Stats this year: 29/16 4900 61%. The difference? Eli had the worst pass protection in the league(15 more pressures than the next worst) and had no running game(actually, the Giants scored a lot of rushing TDs but only because the other teams were too scared of Elis throwing abilities. Other than that, it was below terrible). Yet he was only 6% less accurate with 1 more interception but around 200 more yards. Also more than 50% of his TDs were in the 4th quater. Which shows you how much his "team" helped. Oh and if you didn't know it was 15 4th quater TDs, which was a record that had stood for more than 50 years.
Eli Manning in 2011 was only outplayed by two QBs Brees and Rodgers. He outplayed every other and for you to call Schaub better than Eli only reinforces the truth we all know... You just hate Eli and the Giants and are extremely biased towards them. Okay that's all, you can go ahead and keep drinking that kool aid now.
some hero told Capt Kirby to stop drinking his kool aid, and instead forces his personal kool aid on him.
I have some hero on ignore, I will never care about any of the posts he makes. I am objective, I do not think a quarterback with a set of 23/20 and 31/25 seasons in just the last 5 years [the latter is 2010] who does nothing but air out the ball is more than he is - a bottom of the "good" rung #9-12 best quarterback.
Like can people really not understand the airing out thing, he has 0 TD 2 INT and 0 TD 3 INT one and done years. No other top 10-12 quarterback has showings that bad - I believe I looked it up before to double check and like maybe Phillip Rivers once and Peyton Manning several times had performances that bad. The Colts still usually managed to win their games when this happened though, so I am willing to cut him more slack, they were just facing teams who were all in on defense. Brady had an 0/2 against the Ravens, but again, they are just invested all in on defense...the Giants facing the Eagles is just not the same thing. Either way, Romo does not air it out, he actually just makes shit happen, so he has nowhere nearly this bad of a result ever.
and lol Drew Brees worst performance is 2 TD 1 INT or 1 TD 0 INT, and his average rounded performance over the last 3 years / 6 games = 3 TD 0 INT. Best quarterback in football.
Like can people really not understand the airing out thing, he has 0 TD 2 INT and 0 TD 3 INT one and done years. No other top 10-12 quarterback has showings that bad - I believe I looked it up before to double check and like maybe Phillip Rivers once and Peyton Manning several times had performances that bad. The Colts still usually managed to win their games when this happened though, so I am willing to cut him more slack, they were just facing teams who were all in on defense. Brady had an 0/2 against the Ravens, but again, they are just invested all in on defense...the Giants facing the Eagles is just not the same thing. Either way, Romo does not air it out, he actually just makes shit happen, so he has nowhere nearly this bad of a result ever.
and lol Drew Brees worst performance is 2 TD 1 INT or 1 TD 0 INT, and his average rounded performance over the last 3 years / 6 games = 3 TD 0 INT. Best quarterback in football.
Using stats from years ago? Yeah, like i said before, Peyton must be a scrub for throwing 28 INTs his rookie year. I only used Schaubs 2009 numbers because the dude can't avoid injury to save his life(despite having one of the best OLs...). Eli on the other hand is the opposite of that.
Keep using old stats, it only again reinforces the idea of your obvious bias. Oh and tehvalkry(only mispell this name because DM said i could do so), i'm not the only one that agrees with Eli's year(where i get all of my Eli material):
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/03/no-8-eli-manning-qb-new-york-giants/
Eli(somehow) has improved dramatically over a year.
Keep using old stats, it only again reinforces the idea of your obvious bias. Oh and tehvalkry(only mispell this name because DM said i could do so), i'm not the only one that agrees with Eli's year(where i get all of my Eli material):
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/03/no-8-eli-manning-qb-new-york-giants/
Eli(somehow) has improved dramatically over a year.
Romo's playoff numbers:
17 29 58.6 189 6.5 1 0 89.6
18 36 50.0 201 5.6 1 1 64.7
23 35 65.7 244 7.0 2 0 104.9
22 35 62.9 198 5.7 0 1 66.1
Doesnt look like he makes anything happen.
While i typically think some hero is the worst kind of homer (and i'm a Giants fan), I can actually agree with this (for CK's sake) entirely. Cruz / Nicks even out the AJ advantage, but don't even out that fact that Eli was with the worst o-line and running game in the NFL.
The problem with Eli is the same as the problem with the Giants as a whole. They're inconsistent as all fucking hell. They can completely destroy the Packers in a divisonal playoff game only 4 weeks after completely losing their shit against the Washington Redskins. So while you can compare Eli's best season with Schaub's best and see Eli clearly did better, if you compared Eli's worst season to Schaub's worst, you see Eli clearly did a ton worse.
This is why CK and I are harsh on Eli and write him off as a guy who literally just chucks it up and prays. On his best day, he'll look as bright as the brightest stars. The problem is, on his worst day, he's really really outstandingly bad. It all depends on how you look at it I guess. If you look at it in terms of capability, then yeah Eli is more "capable", but in my eyes capability isn't worth that much, it only matters if you actually do it.
This is why CK and I are harsh on Eli and write him off as a guy who literally just chucks it up and prays. On his best day, he'll look as bright as the brightest stars. The problem is, on his worst day, he's really really outstandingly bad. It all depends on how you look at it I guess. If you look at it in terms of capability, then yeah Eli is more "capable", but in my eyes capability isn't worth that much, it only matters if you actually do it.
Well since no one is going to do it, i'm forced to point this out. Though i don't mind since i obviously don't like this Cowboys fan that only spouts "facts"(or Googled stats without any context).
So just because Dalton is 24 he had to be NFL ready? Never mind that the NFL is a total different sport than College Football or that it takes "normal " QBs years to adjust and finally improve. Never mind that. Dalton had a pretty good rookie season. But since he wasn't in a Texas based team your complete bias forces you to call him bad. According to you we saw Dalton's max potential this season.. because he was 24.. And for that we must hold him to some stupid high standard. Jesus this makes me want to facepalm so hard.
But since i disagree with your homer posts i am a troll and in your ignore list.. Right gotcha brah.
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