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The Everything NFL Thread - 2013-2014 Edition
- Thread starter Killah
- Start date
- Status
How does that man still have a job at ESPN?
Still can't watch Div round highlights. That loss still burns me. I can't WAIT to watch the Broncos blow them out opening day. They'll be facing Regular Season Peyton aka greatest QB who ever lived.
On a related note, I don't like John Fox. And I also think most good coaches from the past(Madden, Lombardi, Parcells) would irritate me as much. You know, coaches with a run first, take a knee into overtime even though you have the greatest QB who ever played the game, play defense, control the clock mind set. I can't wait to see Sean Payton back. I just want to see the Saints crush pathetic teams and run up the score on them.
And I admit, Romo is currently as good as Eli. Every year I go into it thinking one will overtake the other. But nope! Plot twist.
Still, we all know who the best will be once all is said and done. As I do believe Eli has a realistic shot at breaking Favres record for consecutive starts.
i didn't know you watched those 3 guys coach, you're pretty lucky
i also love the hate on flacco, he's at worst the 15th best qb in a 32 team league that is all about the quarterback these days. the people expecting him to crash and burn because boldin leaving will seemingly be waiting a while as he was a MORE efficient quarterback the year BEFORE boldin got there/the first year boldin got there. unsurprisingly, in the 2 years after that (2011/2012), flacco posted his worst statistical seasons as boldins level of play decreased to the level of an old man.
unsurprisingly, the ravens realized boldin has played like shit these last 2 seasons until this playoff run and decided it was more of a fluke than a trend and cut him. if flacco continues to do sub 60%, blame the fact that he wasn't added a WR, not that he lost one.
is there a more ridiculous achievement than consecutive starts record. probably the most pointless "accomplishment" in sports.
CK i know we were discussing newton the other day, i found this: 125/214, 1726 yards, 8.1Y/A, 11TD, 2INT, 5-2; 64 rushes, 327 yards, 6YPC, 4TD, 0 FMBL
These are the stats of newton post carolina being eliminated from the playoffs. he was what 8 td/9 int before that with 9 fumbles (with only 1 in those last 7) and 3 of them lost. maybe a sign of things to come or just a sign that cam being able to play garbage games vs crappy defenses produces ridiculously good results instead of when hes actually playing real teams (their opening schedule was really tough). newtons good but way overhyped
edit im just gonna add onto a public rant of mine: football isnt basketball, can we stop talking about coaches/players/teams that you never saw play and just read about on espns the greatest teams of all time or w/e the fuck you're reading. there is nothing that annoys me more than people in this thread (some hero is the example here) who pretend that they actually know what theyre talking about without actually watching. i think the literal worst is when people talk about jerry rice or montana, because apparently smogon is lurking with 40 year olds who watched them play with an understanding of football.
i also love the hate on flacco, he's at worst the 15th best qb in a 32 team league that is all about the quarterback these days. the people expecting him to crash and burn because boldin leaving will seemingly be waiting a while as he was a MORE efficient quarterback the year BEFORE boldin got there/the first year boldin got there. unsurprisingly, in the 2 years after that (2011/2012), flacco posted his worst statistical seasons as boldins level of play decreased to the level of an old man.
unsurprisingly, the ravens realized boldin has played like shit these last 2 seasons until this playoff run and decided it was more of a fluke than a trend and cut him. if flacco continues to do sub 60%, blame the fact that he wasn't added a WR, not that he lost one.
is there a more ridiculous achievement than consecutive starts record. probably the most pointless "accomplishment" in sports.
CK i know we were discussing newton the other day, i found this: 125/214, 1726 yards, 8.1Y/A, 11TD, 2INT, 5-2; 64 rushes, 327 yards, 6YPC, 4TD, 0 FMBL
These are the stats of newton post carolina being eliminated from the playoffs. he was what 8 td/9 int before that with 9 fumbles (with only 1 in those last 7) and 3 of them lost. maybe a sign of things to come or just a sign that cam being able to play garbage games vs crappy defenses produces ridiculously good results instead of when hes actually playing real teams (their opening schedule was really tough). newtons good but way overhyped
edit im just gonna add onto a public rant of mine: football isnt basketball, can we stop talking about coaches/players/teams that you never saw play and just read about on espns the greatest teams of all time or w/e the fuck you're reading. there is nothing that annoys me more than people in this thread (some hero is the example here) who pretend that they actually know what theyre talking about without actually watching. i think the literal worst is when people talk about jerry rice or montana, because apparently smogon is lurking with 40 year olds who watched them play with an understanding of football.
I actually wasn't aware of this, so thanks for the info. I still don't think Flacco is very good, but perhaps I was incorrect in my assessment that Boldin was carrying him.
we already talked about this on irc but newton played great against 5/10 quality teams he faced last year, and played poorly against 5/10...the NFL schedule is so short that I am not looking to take any conclusion away from that, and I think he is the best young deep passer, and we have seen in the last 6 years 3 Super Bowls decided by more traditional "elite" passing (Steelers and Packers D helped both lol...Saints/Colts the best elite QB bowl ever), and 3 were decided by relatively more mediocre QBs who could do nothing but throw deep/"clutch", in the Giants cases with help from at least some parts of their D but shockingly in the Ravens case with no real help from anything but the mildest of red zone D. I mean fuck I am not happy about that being how things shook out, I have been vocal about thinking the "wrong teams/crappy teams won", but in this case it does make an argument for why Newton will probably matter & prosper.
He also has an average OL and a mediocre D - the D was 27th and 18th in points allowed his 2 seasons. The offense was amazing in 2011 and less so in 2012, but the offensive side tends to fluctuate with turnover luck unless you have a rock solid QB or rock solid running system+elite D. Although Newton stopping drives a little more often than 2011 in the scope of the whole season obviously hurt the team on both sides of the ball at least a little.
I think Kaepernick and Griffin look like future elite passers, but I think Newton is going to matter just as much and might end up the most dominant of all the young QBs still. Newton's running is powerful without being extremely dangerous to himself and he is already better at the deep pass than any rookie could have ever been expected to be. If he actually develops an overall elite passing game, it will look like something the league has very rarely seen before. Daunte Culpepper only truly had one elite season, and Newton could have that same season 4-5 times depending on injury luck and how he develops from here.
He also has an average OL and a mediocre D - the D was 27th and 18th in points allowed his 2 seasons. The offense was amazing in 2011 and less so in 2012, but the offensive side tends to fluctuate with turnover luck unless you have a rock solid QB or rock solid running system+elite D. Although Newton stopping drives a little more often than 2011 in the scope of the whole season obviously hurt the team on both sides of the ball at least a little.
I think Kaepernick and Griffin look like future elite passers, but I think Newton is going to matter just as much and might end up the most dominant of all the young QBs still. Newton's running is powerful without being extremely dangerous to himself and he is already better at the deep pass than any rookie could have ever been expected to be. If he actually develops an overall elite passing game, it will look like something the league has very rarely seen before. Daunte Culpepper only truly had one elite season, and Newton could have that same season 4-5 times depending on injury luck and how he develops from here.
Do you even bother to read? I said "would", meaning they don't/haven't because i've never seen any of their games. Scratch that, Parcells did irritate me. My point still stands on the others though. Their old fashioned way of doing things would frustrate me so much.
Joe Flacco is one of the bottom 10 QBs in the league. I'd argue it, but it doesn't bother him, you think hes top 15(lol) and won't change your mind and i don't really care since i like Flacco.
Enjoy your 3500 yard passer though.
I may be some kind of moronic fanboy, but I'm going to go with "Brady will do better than what people are expecting", assuming that they change their offensive strategy according to the vast changes across the entire receiving corps.
ESPN Boston said:
Donald Jones is 25 years old and has been in the league 3 seasons. When exactly did they change the definition of "veteran" for players? Is the order now officially "Rookie -> Sophomore -> Veteran" ???
Brady will be fine, all he has to do is find receivers he can trust. He has a bad (or good) habit of picking favorites to throw to often, and he generally throws to them very often. If he finds he can't trust Amendola's hands (or health) and none of his other receivers step up, we could see a more indecisive Brady then we're used to seeing. However, I trust that the coaching staff will use their new weapons to their advantage, and there's certainly enough options for Brady to choose from that he'll probably find one he likes. I don't think he'll be as good as he's been lately, but I'd be shocked if Brady turns in anything but another top-5 season.
Yeah I think we will see numbers similar to what he put up in 2005 and 2009. 4100-4300 yards, 26-28 TDs and 12-15 ints.
This is as much a response to kd as it is a general topic starter. I separated the names into tiers. Which i'm far more comfortable doing than ranking these guys in a numerical order. The systems they play in are so different that at some point numbers aren't THAT important.
WARNING: It's all opinion bro, chill out.
1. Peyton Manning
2./1b. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Dree Brees
5. Matt Ryan
6. Tony Romo
7. Ben Roethlisburger
8. Eli Manning
9. Mathew Stafford
10. Philip Rivers
11. Matt Schaub
12. Jay Cutler
13. Cameron Newton
14. Carson Palmer
15. Andrew Luck
16. Robert Griffin
17. Russel Wilson
18. Andy Dalton
19. Sam Bradford
20. Alex Smith
21. Colin Kaeppernick
22. Ryan Tannehill
23. Josh Freeman
24. Joe Flacco
25. Brandon Weeden
26. Christian Ponder
27. Jake Locker
28. Kevin Kolb
29. Matt Flynn
30. Plaine Gabbert
31. Michael Vick
32. Mark Sanhez
As rookies, they cannot be ranked in my top 15. Teams they played against really don't have much to go on and it's just one season. Andrew Luck proved the most as he was a good ol' fashioned pocket QB and still put up amazing numbers. Why does being a pocket QB matter? Teams are used to his type and can defend him far more easily than griffin or Kapp. So he had it much tougher and his season was more pure.
WARNING: It's all opinion bro, chill out.
1. Peyton Manning
2./1b. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Dree Brees
5. Matt Ryan
6. Tony Romo
7. Ben Roethlisburger
8. Eli Manning
9. Mathew Stafford
10. Philip Rivers
11. Matt Schaub
12. Jay Cutler
13. Cameron Newton
14. Carson Palmer
15. Andrew Luck
16. Robert Griffin
17. Russel Wilson
18. Andy Dalton
19. Sam Bradford
20. Alex Smith
21. Colin Kaeppernick
22. Ryan Tannehill
23. Josh Freeman
24. Joe Flacco
25. Brandon Weeden
26. Christian Ponder
27. Jake Locker
28. Kevin Kolb
29. Matt Flynn
30. Plaine Gabbert
31. Michael Vick
32. Mark Sanhez
As rookies, they cannot be ranked in my top 15. Teams they played against really don't have much to go on and it's just one season. Andrew Luck proved the most as he was a good ol' fashioned pocket QB and still put up amazing numbers. Why does being a pocket QB matter? Teams are used to his type and can defend him far more easily than griffin or Kapp. So he had it much tougher and his season was more pure.
I think anyone can make the argument that Flacco belongs behind the following groups (in no particular order):
Top 4
Ryan/Romo/Ben/Eli
Cam/Stafford
The 4 Sophomores (Wilson/Kaep/Luck/RG3)
How you draw those 14 up is irrelevant, this is just an argument that can be made. All have posted superior statistics in the regular season. All Flacco really has to his resume is an impressive (admittedly very impressive) 4 game playoff streak, and otherwise has been pretty mediocre. All of these players have had at least one "very good" season (except maybe Kaepernick because he didn't play enough, and Luck because the inaccuracy/interceptions/general media hype that inflates our perceptions of him).
After that you're in the Dalton/Schaub/Rivers/Cutler group. These guys are mediocre now and have never really outshone Flacco ever. Don't think it's really fair to stick him here or behind them at all.
So in the end, it's exactly like kd24 said; he's at worst the 15th best QB. Maybe some of the guys behind him would do better in his shoes, but we'll never really know that either.
They might have lost several pieces, but Brady led the best scoring offense in the league last year with 59 TDs. I have trouble imagining that they'd step down that much, or rush for 25 TDs again as they did last season (Woodhead/Bolden/Vereen had 9 rushing TDs as backups, and Brady rushed for 4 too). I think he'll be even a little bit better than that, with a handful more TDs as they pass for more that they could have rushed for last season.
Top 4
Ryan/Romo/Ben/Eli
Cam/Stafford
The 4 Sophomores (Wilson/Kaep/Luck/RG3)
How you draw those 14 up is irrelevant, this is just an argument that can be made. All have posted superior statistics in the regular season. All Flacco really has to his resume is an impressive (admittedly very impressive) 4 game playoff streak, and otherwise has been pretty mediocre. All of these players have had at least one "very good" season (except maybe Kaepernick because he didn't play enough, and Luck because the inaccuracy/interceptions/general media hype that inflates our perceptions of him).
After that you're in the Dalton/Schaub/Rivers/Cutler group. These guys are mediocre now and have never really outshone Flacco ever. Don't think it's really fair to stick him here or behind them at all.
So in the end, it's exactly like kd24 said; he's at worst the 15th best QB. Maybe some of the guys behind him would do better in his shoes, but we'll never really know that either.
They might have lost several pieces, but Brady led the best scoring offense in the league last year with 59 TDs. I have trouble imagining that they'd step down that much, or rush for 25 TDs again as they did last season (Woodhead/Bolden/Vereen had 9 rushing TDs as backups, and Brady rushed for 4 too). I think he'll be even a little bit better than that, with a handful more TDs as they pass for more that they could have rushed for last season.
Gotta love the intentional spelling errors like Dree Brees.
why are people overrating the hell out of stafford? has no one watched him play? even his statistics are god awful.
the lions had the BEST Oline last year and stafford threw 727 TIMES for a whopping 20 TD/17 INT
if you're judging him off of his 2011 campaign where he threw the ball 663 times, he played such powerhouses as tampa bay where he 3/1, KC: 4/1, vikings: 2/1, denver: 3/0, injured as fuck carolina: 5/2, vikings again: 2/0, the RAIDASSSSS: 4/0, and san diego: 3/0
in games where stafford played good teams, he was 1/3 vs green bay, 1/1 vs new orleans, 2/1 vs chicago, 1/4 vs chicago, 1/0 vs atlanta, 2/0 vs sf
he also went 1/0 vs an average dallas team
his last game that season he went 5/2 for 520 yards while green bay was resting their starters
so vs those good teams (and green bay and new orleans have suspect defenses), stafford went a whopping 1-5 with 7 tds and 9 ints
vs those bad teams, he went 8-0 with 26 tds and 5 ints
yeah nothing suspicious about those results
the dude is the definition of mediocre and couldn't even produce last year after having the literal best oline in football. look at those numbers!
he also has some of the worst throwing ive ever seen and is wildly erratic in the games i've watched, so he certainly does not pass the eye test
edit: source for oline: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2012
the lions had the BEST Oline last year and stafford threw 727 TIMES for a whopping 20 TD/17 INT
if you're judging him off of his 2011 campaign where he threw the ball 663 times, he played such powerhouses as tampa bay where he 3/1, KC: 4/1, vikings: 2/1, denver: 3/0, injured as fuck carolina: 5/2, vikings again: 2/0, the RAIDASSSSS: 4/0, and san diego: 3/0
in games where stafford played good teams, he was 1/3 vs green bay, 1/1 vs new orleans, 2/1 vs chicago, 1/4 vs chicago, 1/0 vs atlanta, 2/0 vs sf
he also went 1/0 vs an average dallas team
his last game that season he went 5/2 for 520 yards while green bay was resting their starters
so vs those good teams (and green bay and new orleans have suspect defenses), stafford went a whopping 1-5 with 7 tds and 9 ints
vs those bad teams, he went 8-0 with 26 tds and 5 ints
yeah nothing suspicious about those results
the dude is the definition of mediocre and couldn't even produce last year after having the literal best oline in football. look at those numbers!
he also has some of the worst throwing ive ever seen and is wildly erratic in the games i've watched, so he certainly does not pass the eye test
edit: source for oline: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2012
We are pegging Stafford as anything after he threw for the most pass attempts in league history with only a 20/17 to show for it, but Rivers is definitely worse than that?????????
Rivers last year had the exact same season as Eli Manning, and remember that represents a still massively declined Rivers. If it is not an injury issue, then it is solely an OL or mental issue, both of which are potentially fixed for good (for several years) by switching to a team. Look, we know nothing about what next year will look like for a lot of QBs - Luck and Bradford could suddenly be in the top 8, Flacco could actually look good for the first time in his career and we can all say it was just the bad coaching and not Flacco actually being so fucking mediocre, or Stafford could throw 700 times and not look like the worst/most random fucking QB ever. Rivers has 145 TD 68 INT over the last 5 years, and he had 135 57 over his first 5 years (Flacco = 102 56 after his first 5). Rivers might really be washed up, I cannot predict the future, but jeez Flacco has been a game manager every season, Rivers has totally outshone him!
Also technically Dalton was pretty good last season idk I find it hard to care about him in the age of current "randomly fucking good" NFL statistics because I never feel like he shows me anything remotely special, but still more solid than Flacco for sure.
Rivers last year had the exact same season as Eli Manning, and remember that represents a still massively declined Rivers. If it is not an injury issue, then it is solely an OL or mental issue, both of which are potentially fixed for good (for several years) by switching to a team. Look, we know nothing about what next year will look like for a lot of QBs - Luck and Bradford could suddenly be in the top 8, Flacco could actually look good for the first time in his career and we can all say it was just the bad coaching and not Flacco actually being so fucking mediocre, or Stafford could throw 700 times and not look like the worst/most random fucking QB ever. Rivers has 145 TD 68 INT over the last 5 years, and he had 135 57 over his first 5 years (Flacco = 102 56 after his first 5). Rivers might really be washed up, I cannot predict the future, but jeez Flacco has been a game manager every season, Rivers has totally outshone him!
Also technically Dalton was pretty good last season idk I find it hard to care about him in the age of current "randomly fucking good" NFL statistics because I never feel like he shows me anything remotely special, but still more solid than Flacco for sure.
I'm not claiming Stafford is a top 10 QB (as that list may suggest) or a "better than Flacco" top 15 QB, just that an argument could be made for that.
Yeah maybe that was a bit harsh on Rivers, it's hard to know whether or not he's washed up. Considering he threw 34/11, 28/9, and 30/13 from 2008-2010, he certainly was better than Flacco at those times at the very least. Even his bad season last year is on par with Flacco's every season ever. I just have a big mental down-arrow next to Rivers' name, compared with an up-arrow for Luck who had a worse season than Flacco but I threw him up with the other sophomores.
I can't ever picture Dalton as good until he performs adequately at least against the Ravens or Steelers. In three games this season (ignoring the finale because he was pulled) he went 60/106 (56.6%) for 604 yards with 1/4 TDs/Ints. In other games against the Browns x2/Giants/Redskins/Raiders/Jags, he went a combined 15-6... against the #25/28/30/20/22 ranked passing defenses. That means in 9 other games against top-20 pass defenses, he threw for 12 TDs and 10 Ints, not terrible numbers but definitely game-manager level. When I watch him play, Flacco-level almost seems like a compliment to me.
Yeah maybe that was a bit harsh on Rivers, it's hard to know whether or not he's washed up. Considering he threw 34/11, 28/9, and 30/13 from 2008-2010, he certainly was better than Flacco at those times at the very least. Even his bad season last year is on par with Flacco's every season ever. I just have a big mental down-arrow next to Rivers' name, compared with an up-arrow for Luck who had a worse season than Flacco but I threw him up with the other sophomores.
I can't ever picture Dalton as good until he performs adequately at least against the Ravens or Steelers. In three games this season (ignoring the finale because he was pulled) he went 60/106 (56.6%) for 604 yards with 1/4 TDs/Ints. In other games against the Browns x2/Giants/Redskins/Raiders/Jags, he went a combined 15-6... against the #25/28/30/20/22 ranked passing defenses. That means in 9 other games against top-20 pass defenses, he threw for 12 TDs and 10 Ints, not terrible numbers but definitely game-manager level. When I watch him play, Flacco-level almost seems like a compliment to me.
I definitely have no grief with Dalton being someone anyone is down on, I just think his basic statistics indicate someone who will get to a 30 TD/15-17 INT level at the very least, and it will happen faster than it ever does for Flacco, not only in terms of NFL seasons but real age too.
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