The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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hmm, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. In a lot of pokes, like Starmie, ice moves shall still be used coz that makes pure sense. However, in some pokes where they have other option like Ape who has HP Electric (I know not a good one eg), we will see less usage with Ice as they have better ways to deal with the pokes the Ice would hit. Overall, Mence won't have a huge impact on the usage of ice moves, just a small one, making many other pokes unpredictable.

Edit: Besides, this is not relevant and not an important point. We are talking about Mence's OU and Uber characteristics.
 
I think many previous posts have pretty much summed up Salamence's effect on the game. It puts an end to the endless paint by numbers of switching to counters and draws a line in the sand for a decisive showdown. There are few options for a Pokemon that the defender can switch in to survive any move from any variant of Salamence. However, the Salamence user is under pressure as well because it cannot afford to switch willy-nilly and needs to make Salamence do something for his team before it faints or is forced out.

People who do not like to predict do not use Salamence. However, in facing it, you are taken out of your comfort zone because predict you must. So in a sense, I can understand the desire to get rid of that impediment to "countering everything". However, even with a prediction mistake a good player will seldom lose his whole team to a Mence, in my experience. OTOH, I've seen whole teams go down in a whirlpool of Taunts, DDs, and Waterfall flinches from one Gyarados misplay. It's good enough to force stuff that could do without it to carry HP Electric.

My opinion is that the whole aim of competitive Pokemon is to create an unstoppable Pokemon. A static scenario where every Pokemon, even after setting up is easily answered by another is neither desirable nor possible, IMO. Ultimately, during a match we want to create a Pokemon, through whatever legal means, that laughs at all remaining countermeasures. A well played Salamence can aid in this process with it's natural firepower but I have seldom seen it act as a one-man army blowing through entire teams without support. Some of the main factors that check it are intrinsic and environmental rather than due to specific counters. However that's fine, IMO, as it elevates the game beyond endless repetition of the same countering tactic.

On a side note, I think the current OU is very healthy in terms of Pokemon usage. In April there were about three Pokemon at 20% with Scizor at about 30%. The reason for Scizor's #1 slot is that it checks both Tyranitar and Salamence at numbers 2 and 3 respectively. Whereas Heatran and Gyarados at numbers 4 and 5 act as countervailing forces against Scizor. It's not until about the 20th Pokemon that anything drops below 10% usage which is about the same as UU. Even though we're not discussing this here, I don't see it as overcentralized in the least.

I sometimes say, a bit facetiously, that Palkia should be dropped onto an OU ladder to remind ourselves of what broken is (if it is indeed!). But on a more serious note, maybe auto-banning of titular legends, though convenient, is a bad idea. I'm not sure, but it certainly removes experience that would act as an empirical touchstone for the idea of an Uber.
 
On a side note, I think the current OU is very healthy in terms of Pokemon usage. In April there were about three Pokemon at 20% with Scizor at about 30%. The reason for Scizor's #1 slot is that it checks both Tyranitar and Salamence at numbers 2 and 3 respectively. Whereas Heatran and Gyarados at numbers 4 and 5 act as countervailing forces against Scizor. It's not until about the 20th Pokemon that anything drops below 10% usage which is about the same as UU. Even though we're not discussing this here, I don't see it as overcentralized in the least.
If you compare the OU and Suspect (although they are still a little premature for Suspect) you will instantly realise that Mence is incredibly over centralising.

I sometimes say, a bit facetiously, that Palkia should be dropped onto an OU ladder to remind ourselves of what broken is (if it is indeed!). But on a more serious note, maybe auto-banning of titular legends, though convenient, is a bad idea. I'm not sure, but it certainly removes experience that would act as an empirical touchstone for the idea of an Uber.
You must realise that some pokes, like Palkia/Kyogre are incredibly broken, whereas others are still broken, but not as much like for example, possibly Mence or Latias.
 
I think many previous posts have pretty much summed up Salamence's effect on the game. It puts an end to the endless paint by numbers of switching to counters and draws a line in the sand for a decisive showdown. There are few options for a Pokemon that the defender can switch in to survive any move from any variant of Salamence. However, the Salamence user is under pressure as well because it cannot afford to switch willy-nilly and needs to make Salamence do something for his team before it faints or is forced out.

People who do not like to predict do not use Salamence. However, in facing it, you are taken out of your comfort zone because predict you must. So in a sense, I can understand the desire to get rid of that impediment to "countering everything". However, even with a prediction mistake a good player will seldom lose his whole team to a Mence, in my experience. OTOH, I've seen whole teams go down in a whirlpool of Taunts, DDs, and Waterfall flinches from one Gyarados misplay. It's good enough to force stuff that could do without it to carry HP Electric.

My opinion is that the whole aim of competitive Pokemon is to create an unstoppable Pokemon. A static scenario where every Pokemon, even after setting up is easily answered by another is neither desirable nor possible, IMO. Ultimately, during a match we want to create a Pokemon, through whatever legal means, that laughs at all remaining countermeasures. A well played Salamence can aid in this process with it's natural firepower but I have seldom seen it act as a one-man army blowing through entire teams without support. Some of the main factors that check it are intrinsic and environmental rather than due to specific counters. However that's fine, IMO, as it elevates the game beyond endless repetition of the same countering tactic.

On a side note, I think the current OU is very healthy in terms of Pokemon usage. In April there were about three Pokemon at 20% with Scizor at about 30%. The reason for Scizor's #1 slot is that it checks both Tyranitar and Salamence at numbers 2 and 3 respectively. Whereas Heatran and Gyarados at numbers 4 and 5 act as countervailing forces against Scizor. It's not until about the 20th Pokemon that anything drops below 10% usage which is about the same as UU. Even though we're not discussing this here, I don't see it as overcentralized in the least.

I sometimes say, a bit facetiously, that Palkia should be dropped onto an OU ladder to remind ourselves of what broken is (if it is indeed!). But on a more serious note, maybe auto-banning of titular legends, though convenient, is a bad idea. I'm not sure, but it certainly removes experience that would act as an empirical touchstone for the idea of an Uber.
You convinced me, my friend. But I have a question: would this point also have applied to Garchomp before it was banned from OU? Or is Chomp a different story?
 

toshimelonhead

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Chomp is a different story because he centralized the metagame much more than Mence did. 50% peak usage is a whole lot different compared to Salamence's current 25%.
 
Chomp is a different story because he centralized the metagame much more than Mence did. 50% peak usage is a whole lot different compared to Salamence's current 25%.
Agreed that Chomp was more. However, SalamenceIS over-centralising and everyone with any sort of intelligence knows that. It isn't the usage of Mence which makes it over-centralising but rather the pokes to counter it like Scizor/TTar who are in the top 3. Look at Suspect usage stats and you will realise it is a whole different picture. That means it is over-centralising.
 

toshimelonhead

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"but rather the pokes to counter it like Scizor/TTar who are in the top 3"

I get Scizor as a check, but how is TTar a counter to Mence?
 
CPrime said:
<Example of playing around Salamence>
The pro-uber group would probably point out the following about that instance:

1. You have Scizor, Heatran, and Scarf Flygon on your team because of Salamence.

2. You revealed a sizable part of your team.

3. They can switch out of your Outrage and kill you with their own Steel.

Ugh...
 
IMHO, the reason why Salamence has never swept a full team like you guys say it hasn't is because it is a requirement, a NECESSITY to have a lot of counters/checks to it on your team for fear of that happening. Mense has affected the metagame in that big of a way.

And you need amazing prediction and to reveal a sizable part of your team to keep mense from killing someone on your team, which hurts you long-run anyway.
 

toshimelonhead

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"1. You have Scizor, Heatran, and Scarf Flygon on your team because of Salamence."

How would Heatran be on a team because of Salamence? You have Scizor to take Outrages and fire back with Bullet Punch. After a DD having a Scarftran doesn't help that much.
 
IMHO, the reason why Salamence has never swept a full team like you guys say it hasn't is because it is a requirement, a NECESSITY to have a lot of counters/checks to it on your team for fear of that happening. Mense has affected the metagame in that big of a way.

And you need amazing prediction and to reveal a sizable part of your team to keep mense from killing someone on your team, which hurts you long-run anyway.
That first part was extremely silly. No it isn't a requirement to carry a Mence counter. I don't carry one and I never get swept. Also checks such a scizor are generally good pokemon anyway and would be used regardless.
 
Heatran is probably unaffected by mence, BTW thank you for correcting me on the check/counter thing, you are right, it was just a mistake. However, having to use Scizor/TTar on most of your teams to deal with Mence is over-centralising.

/discussion

Also, no poke, not even an Uber can sweep a whole team by itself, everything requires some support.

EDIT: Scizor would not be used so much if it were not for Mence, go check Suspect stats
 

Chou Toshio

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Scarf Flygon is a terrible check to Salamence. Scarf Flygon can be an incredible valuable player, and more often than not its survival or death can determine the outcome of an entire fight. Outraging into a Salamence that could just switch out to a steel type (ANY steel type can shrug off Flygon's pathetically weak outrage) is just stupid.

In short, Flygon is not a mence check-- it's a transition pokemon that forces switches, with a strong chance to clean house in end game.

Heatran isn't a mence check unless it has scarf, and you can look at the stats to see scarf is far from being the majority of Heatran.

Scizor is an awesome pokemon period, and while it does check salamence, it's bigger role is in checking special attackers-- Gengar, Starmie, Celebi, and previously latias provided scizor with its most useful and relevant targets. Checking mence is just a bonus for scizor.
 
"1. You have Scizor, Heatran, and Scarf Flygon on your team because of Salamence."

How would Heatran be on a team because of Salamence? You have Scizor to take Outrages and fire back with Bullet Punch. After a DD having a Scarftran doesn't help that much.
That's just what I was thinking! After one DD Heatran doesn't stand a chance. Scizor Switching in on a +1 LO Outrage takes about 40.4% - 47.7% Damage! Scarf Flygon needs to win the speed tie to defeat Salamence. This is all for DD Salamence! Either way Salamence will hurt one Pokemon badly or it will KO one!
 
EDIT: Scizor would not be used so much if it were not for Mence, go check Suspect stats
You mean the ones from May 25 - 31? Probably not smart to compare a period of what, 12 months, to 6 days, lol.

I noted in my last post I was seeing Scizor increase and that's probably because people are realizing it just rocks, and probably stopped using it before because they thought they were only using it for Salamence. I still use Scizor because I like the scouting and extra damage that U-turn can give and the strong priority Scizor gives. I'd wager a lot of people relied on Bullet Punch to revenge other threats besides Salamence or used U-turn to scout effectively so they could set up a plan.

*This post does not advocate anything related to the tiering of Salamence and if it seems that way I don't want it to*
 
If you compare the OU and Suspect (although they are still a little premature for Suspect) you will instantly realise that Mence is incredibly over centralising.
Clearly you missed Latias being banned so late in the month...

However, having to use Scizor/TTar on most of your teams to deal with Mence is over-centralising.
No, you used them to A) deal with Latias and B) to deal with Special Attackers.. if you payed attention, Blissey went down to #23 because those 2 went up and check many special attackers. Also, did it ever occur to you that Tyranitar doesnt fucking counter Salamence anyway?

IMHO, the reason why Salamence has never swept a full team like you guys say it hasn't is because it is a requirement, a NECESSITY to have a lot of counters/checks to it on your team for fear of that happening. Mense has affected the metagame in that big of a way.
Yes, it is necessary to check a large threat. If you dont you will be swept and think Mence is broken. Guess what!? If you dont have a check for Lucario, he will sweep you. Don't have an infernape check? Good luck. This post means nothing.

These arguments are becoming weaker and weaker and are based off lack of common sense or incorrect data... smh
 

SJCrew

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Metagames will always have an undisputed king. There will always be a #1 Poke in the metagame. How long has Scizor been on top?? How long has Venusaur been on top in UU?? You can't get a metagame where there is no #1, because frankly, that is impossible.
I knew you'd misunderstand me here. When I say "undisputed king", I don't mean "Pokemon at #1 usage", I mean a Pokemon with such a presence and influence that it restricts your teambuilding options to the few Pokemon that can beat it (IE, Latias) That's a huge imbalance as opposed to the standard sweepers in a metagame that have a healthy list of at least five or so common and practical options to beat it on a regular basis. I believe it's an imbalance that should be corrected as soon as possible, or else the metagame is going to continue to focus on said Pokemon, rather than standalone viable strategies. Salamence has had its foot on the neck of OU for a while and I think it's about time we put a stop to it.
 
Clearly you missed Latias being banned so late in the month...



No, you used them to A) deal with Latias and B) to deal with Special Attackers.. if you payed attention, Blissey went down to #23 because those 2 went up and check many special attackers. Also, did it ever occur to you that Tyranitar doesnt fucking counter Salamence anyway?



Yes, it is necessary to check a large threat. If you dont you will be swept and think Mence is broken. Guess what!? If you dont have a check for Lucario, he will sweep you. Don't have an infernape check? Good luck. This post means nothing.

These arguments are becoming weaker and weaker and are based off lack of common sense or incorrect data... smh
I never said TTar counters Mence, that was an accident, it causes problems for Mence though.

If you read my post properly, you would have noted that I said it was a little premature for Suspect stats, but they still give you a basic picture of what is going on.
Your obviously posting to troll as you are nit picking at anything because ofc you need to counter the biggest OU threats, however there are many pokes to deal with most of them. Mence only has checks, the most common of which are in the top 5.
I was merely speculating so if you don't have anything useful to contribute please don't post.

Please analyse what people have posted then respond, as that was very insulting and utter bs.
 

panamaxis

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While it may be very destructive, it can also be easy to deal with. It all comes down to how well the Salamence user can predict, along with the predictions of the person trying to take Salamence down. Prediction of moves is basically all that decides whether Salamence will sweep or be useless in any given match, as it is absolutely not guaranteed one kill per game.
So Salamence is easy to deal with if you can outpredict your opponent? So you have to (nearly) always outpredict your opponent every time salamence comes in to deal with it easily? Same thing would apply to Rayquaza in OU, no? (I'm not saying whether salamence is uber or not I'm just trying to clarify)
 
A few of you have taken my post completely the wrong way, regarding my playing and my team...
First off, I like using things that I've trained in-game on shoddy to see how well they can do. I do use Heatran, Scizor, and Flygon quite a lot when battling my friends and other people.
Secondly, I don't see how having those three on my team is caused by Salamence AT ALL. That just makes no sense at all. Flygon is a great scout with Ground and Electric immunities, as well as Stealth Rock resistance and the ability to clean up late game. Scizor is a beast, and I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to use a 135 power priority move coming from base 130 attack. Heatran is simply a boss, being able to come in on Scizor and Subbing on the switch out.
People who say my team shows an over-centralizing effect caused by Salamence take my example and twist it around to fit their argument. Sure, I'm prepared for Salamence. That doesn't mean I build my team specifically to beat it. That's a terrible way to make a team. If all you guys would rather build teams full of "counters" for other pokemon instead of making a team full of things that are just straight up good, then of course you'll complain. However, if you base your team around one or two or three favorite things, then fill in the other slots to cover their weaknesses and other duties, you'll find the game to be much more enjoyable, which is what a GAME is all about anyway.
If you seriously can't handle Salamence, then either nut up and try harder, or put some effort into your strategy.
 
I do use Heatran, Scizor, and Flygon quite a lot when battling my friends and other people.
Secondly, I don't see how having those three on my team is caused by Salamence AT ALL.
Let me explain to you why people say that. Alot of offensive teams use those 3 pokes because they each can come in 2 of mix mences attacks. Scizor resists draco meteor and can take an eq, flygon can come in on fire blast or eq, and heatran can come in on draco meteor or fire blast. They also do a decent job at stopping a dd mence sweep too (scizor can hit non-bulky ones for around 60%, heatran can take an outrage, and flygon can force a speed tie). Yes they are decent pokes without mence around but they wouldnt be nearly as popular without mence (well maybe heatran would). However a well played salamence can STILL be a disadvantage for you to face. Because as we all know bullet punching with scizor is generally a bad idea and the same goes for outraging with flygon unless you have seen your whole opponents team. They both can be set up on by something like agiligross, and thats why some people are crying support characteristic. Also, there arent many other viable ways for offense to deal with mence other then said 3 pokes (well 2 since heatran doesnt really count, especially since yours isnt scarfed). Thats why people are screaming centralization. And dont bring up scarf rachi up either since it only ties +1 mence (same with flygon so he doesnt really count either)
 
Through my first seven or eight battles on the Suspect ladder, it is quickly becoming clear that a lot of the teams people are using at the moment are heavily stall weak. No Salamence makes a big difference there! Just slapping Infernape onto your team doesn't mean it can break stall, especially if it can't beat Resttalk Gyarados.
I haven't had a chance to play suspect yet but I don't see teams being stall weak being a big problem. Ummm hello, maybe people should learn to beat stall without thinking that slapping a mence on their team would solve all their problems? I have no problems with forcing players to think at a higher level.
 

toshimelonhead

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Scarfrachi is better than you give it credit for--Most of the time it can come into a locked Outrage so it doesn't get KOed if it loses the speed tie.

I don't get why you need two pokes to counter Mence. Having a bulky water with Ice Beam can do the job if you need only one counter/check. Losing only one pokemon to mence a battle does not scream "Centralization" to me at all, maybe that's because I've been playing with Mence and other DDers for so long. Factor in a SR and LO recoil and it's already down to 65%--or have no DD at all and have it be dealt with HP Icers. Having two "checks" is not considered broken or "centralized", either. Mence isn't going through a bulky water and a CB Scizor's Bullet Punch or similar priority/scarf move even with a DD. Garchomp always had that chance because of Sand Veil and/or a Yache Berry taking care of that Ice weakness of even taking down its counters a third of the time. Mence never had that luxury and probably never will.
 
Scarfrachi is better than you give it credit for--Most of the time it can come into a locked Outrage so it doesn't get KOed if it loses the speed tie.

I don't get why you need two pokes to counter Mence. Having a bulky water with Ice Beam can do the job if you need only one counter/check. Losing only one pokemon to mence a battle does not scream "Centralization" to me at all, maybe that's because I've been playing with Mence and other DDers for so long. Factor in a SR and LO recoil and it's already down to 65%--or have no DD at all and have it be dealt with HP Icers. Having two "checks" is not considered broken or "centralized", either. Mence isn't going through a bulky water and a CB Scizor's Bullet Punch or similar priority/scarf move even with a DD. Garchomp always had that chance because of Sand Veil and/or a Yache Berry taking care of that Ice weakness of even taking down its counters a third of the time. Mence never had that luxury and probably never will.
Comming into a locked outrage means it just got a kill and magnezone will likely be there to revenge your revenge. Thats 2 for the price of one! (possibly 3 if mag is a sub version).

Im not doing calcs again because someone else already did, and every singly bulky water is ko'd by draco metero+outrage or 2 dms. Also most bulky waters take between 80-100% from a +1 outrage and are 2hkod by +0 outrage. That means they cant switch into his stab attacks witch likely means you have to sac something just to force him out.
 
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