The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Vile]

most people arguing against mence=uber are making this mistake. They think mence is counterable just because you can revenge kill it. the simple fact that you almost always have to lose one pokemon it (not unlike wobbuffet in ubers) is what seems to be the issue. very few other pokemon can boast this, that yeah, you might put them down but not after they've raped one of your own.

what i said in that line, was about my personal experience... not real fact, i think i clarified it. but consider this factor, salamence usually comes in mid-late game, on when something specific happens, soo... of course people will have problems dealing with it, same with a late game sweeper.
problems. not imposible. its a game...tactic, luck and conditional factors are relevant.

when you take into account mence's stats, the fact that it has perfect coverage, and two STAB attacks, one physical and one special that hit with 120 BP or more... no other OU pokemon boasts that. Its the hardest and fastest hitting pokemon in OU, hands down..

please dont say that,we have infernape, he boast close combat,120bp and overheat 140bp, not the same stats has mence, but the phrase "its super effective" its more common on him

 

[Robb90000]

Agreed with Dura.

OT: I agree with Salamence being uber on the grounds that it has only one true counter, Cresselia, and that is true-countered by the current #1 and #2 most used OU Pokemon in the current metagame, Scizor and Tyranitar. Even Regirock cannot call itself a true counter, needing Sandstorm support to survive the special hits.

As for predicting Salamence, you have more of a chance to be right (ex. If his head pops up late, he's more likely a DD, if against a wall, more likely Mix.), yet the consequence of being wrong is so severe it guarantees the loss of a team member, possibly an entire sweep if you're unprepared for such a threat.

When it comes to using him, however, you have the advantage of playing mind games with your opponent. First, you enjoy them guessing what set you are, and can take that a step further by assuming they guess correctly and still punishing them with an Earthquake or Fire Blast or early Outrage. Second, they now must guess when Mence is switching out -- again, not difficult, but it can penalize you horribly if you chose Protect when they switch or something to that effect --. Lastly, you now have to guess when he is showing his ugly head again. Still, this is not difficult once you figure out the set, but it's reliant on guessing right the first time, and your opponent has intelligence, more likely than not.*
*If you predict all three correctly, and with Stealth Rock in play, then you have successfully countered the Salamence threat. But Stealth Rock makes all the difference, meaning you have to take it even a step further in stopping the Rapid Spin to begin with.

Overall, it comes down to the team Salamence is on and the amount of skill that the player is using him with. With the correct support of a Rapid Spinner and a Wish user, and some amount of skill, you have a clearly overpowered Pokemon that will demolish you, given the opportunity. (Which a lot it has!)

Feel free to tear my arguement apart; I'm sure I'm missing some vital flaw.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

For something you claim to be so uber, I fail to see how anyone would be 'unprepared' for such a threat.

 

[Robb90000]

For something you claim to be so uber, I fail to see how anyone would be 'unprepared' for such a threat.

Say <insert random person here> had only one Salamence counter, as crazy as that sounds, that could come in and perfectly counter the DD set, but required correct prediction for the Mixed set. <random person> saw it appear late-game, making <random person> believe it's the DD set, and doesn't want to risk losing a valuable teammate this late to find out what it is. So, being the insightful human being he/she/it is, immediately goes to said counter, only to be Draco Meteor'd upon and then proceed to be EQ'd or Outraged to death. They pretty much just lost the game, wouldn't you say?

 

[Shizzle]

You guys do realise how stupid the AU tier idea is, for godsake we can't keep making NEW tiers, the idea for the tiering system is to balance the gameplay, which they are doing. And you guys do realise that this is a DEBATE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SALAMENCE SHALL BE MOVED, not a statement that Salamence WILL be moved.....

How about we keep on topic?

Say <insert random person here> had only one Salamence counter, as crazy as that sounds, that could come in and perfectly counter the DD set, but required correct prediction for the Mixed set. <random person> saw it appear late-game, making <random person> believe it's the DD set, and doesn't want to risk losing a valuable teammate this late to find out what it is. So, being the insightful human being he/she/it is, immediately goes to said counter, only to be Draco Meteor'd upon and then proceed to be EQ'd or Outraged to death. They pretty much just lost the game, wouldn't you say?

The best way to counter Salamence IMO, is to switch to a pokemon that CAN threaten Salamence, yet is the least useful pokemon you currently have. Then the salamence goes for the attack, allowing you to bring in your counter when salamence lays waste to your death fodder. Sure its a sacrifice, but many pokemon have this affect.

 

[shrang]

I'm seeing a problem here. If Cresselia is probably the one counter that can take Salamence, and Tyranitar and Sandstorm is probably the only thing that really gives her big, big, problems (Scizor does too, I know, but just letting it U-Turning onto Zapdos isn't too much of a problem, not to mention Cress can run HP Fire anyway), why are we not Suspect testing Tyranitar for the Support Characteristic since he makes Salamence (And in Stage 3-3 Test, Manaphy) broken?? The number of things Tyranitar can remove from a battle is simply ridiculous. Spin blockers hate that thing. It's not only Salamence that is made very threatening with Tyranitar being used to remove checks. Gyarados loves Rotom-A being removed, Ape loves Starmie being removed. If Salamence is so broken because Cresselia is being hampered by TTar, I fail to see why Mence would be so hotly debated while no-one gives a fuck about Tyranitar (I mean, if we can do something as stupid as claim Dugtrio as a Suspect in UU, there is absolutely NO reason why we can't Suspect Test Tyranitar).

 

[Robb90000]

You guys do realise how stupid the AU tier idea is, for godsake we can't keep making NEW tiers, the idea for the tiering system is to balance the gameplay, which they are doing. And you guys do realise that this is a DEBATE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SALAMENCE SHALL BE MOVED, not a statement that Salamence WILL be moved.....

How about we keep on topic?

Sorry if my wording was a little off; pretty early in the morning here. I meant I agree with him being moved to Ubers. Again, sorry if I caused confusion. x.x

 

[Shizzle]

@shrang, pretty horrible typing, weak x4 Weak to fighting, and x2 for grass/water/ground, which is pretty terrible, his stats kind of make up for it, but his subpar defensive typing makes him not as good. Also he has a low speed >.>

Sorry if my wording was a little off; pretty early in the morning here. I meant I agree with him being moved to Ubers. Again, sorry if I caused confusion. x.x

Its ok, clearly unintentional

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

But in that situation, you're telling me they had no way of stopping MixMence at all in the first place before the battle started....

Otherwise the situation holds true for basically any Pokemon. Hold a threat until late game, they send out their last possible counter, only for it to get toasted somehow, before being cleaned up by the threat.

The problem everyone seems to have is that they think:

A. The holder of the Salamence is always in control. Salamence will be out there turn 1 causing havoc. The user has to make all his conditions right. He has to know what he's doing and executing his game plan. Salamence, like anything else, will only be a threat if you create the right conditions, and the opposite holds true. If the opponent of the Salamence has his way, sets up everything he wants, the Salamence, or any other particular threat, will not be a threat.

B. That the Salamence user will always be good enough to NOT GET BEAT the second they use Draco Meteor or Outrage. Remember, you're leaving yourself open at -2 spatk or stuck in Outrage. This does not mean you're still going to win just because you killed one single Poke with Mence. It's like Tyranitar killing off something with Pursuit, or Scizor with Bullet Punch, they are now set up bait, just like Salamence when at -2, and to a lesser extent, stuck in Outrage (though extremely huge set up bait if Outrage confusion kicked in).

 

[Shizzle]

@Aeroblacktyl, you also must consider that only 1 type resists dragon, and when its a 180 power move off 405 Atk and Life Orb, its going to hurt..everything. Although Agiligross set up is eminent :)

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

If you're using Adamant then you leave yourself absolutely vulnerable to far more things and become even easier to check. In fact if Salamence base speed was 90 and everyone always used +speed (which is 306) then it wouldn't even be an issue right now as it'd be in the same situation as people who disregard Dragonite as a replacement for when if Salamence is banned.

 

[Shizzle]

Thats another thing though, Salamence has amazing all round stats for such a powerful yet fast sweeper. It combined with its STAB Outrage/Draco Meteor + awesome EQs/Fire Blast make him a extremely powerful, not sure about the Uber status though, although I would find OU much more fun if he was.

EDIT: Most pokemon drop speed or raw power for higher defensive stats, salamence does neither, and as an added bonus, has intimidate

 

[Robb90000]

But in that situation, you're telling me they had no way of stopping MixMence at all in the first place before the battle started....

You can have a revenge-killer to a Pokemon, if you're really that intent on stopping it. A Lead Swampert isn't 1HKO'd by any of MixMence's moves, and can Ice Beam for the return kill.

Otherwise the situation holds true for basically any Pokemon. Hold a threat until late game, they send out their last possible counter, only for it to get toasted somehow, before being cleaned up by the threat.

I agree with this; but the problem being Salamence is one with so few counters stretched far and wide, conditions must be perfect to deal with him, when he is only on about one-fifth of enemy teams. You simply cannot have the perfect conditions 5/5 games, and there's always the possiblity he'll slip into the hole and have that much more advantage over the average sweeper.

The problem everyone seems to have is that they think:

A. The holder of the Salamence is always in control. Salamence will be out there turn 1 causing havoc. The user has to make all his conditions right. He has to know what he's doing and executing his game plan. Salamence, like anything else, will only be a threat if you create the right conditions, and the opposite holds true. If the opponent of the Salamence has his way, sets up everything he wants, the Salamence, or any other particular threat, will not be a threat.

As said above, he is more likely than not in control of the situation. You cannot have perfect conditions to deal with every Salamence in the game at every point in the game.

B. That the Salamence user will always be good enough to NOT GET BEAT the second they use Draco Meteor or Outrage. Remember, you're leaving yourself open at -2 spatk or stuck in Outrage. This does not mean you're still going to win just because you killed one single Poke with Mence. It's like Tyranitar killing off something with Pursuit, or Scizor with Bullet Punch, they are now set up bait, just like Salamence when at -2, and to a lesser extent, stuck in Outrage (though extremely huge set up bait if Outrage confusion kicked in).

This is highly situational, dependant on human intelligence. Generally, yes, they are smart enough to not get beat, because Salamence is just that damn powerful. When he is -2 for SpA, He still is boasting a 140 SpA STAB attack bolstered by Life Orb, and has his Atk completely unhindered. As for Outrage, one simply wouldn't Outrage unless it was a follow-up attack to Draco Meteor on a threat that could potentially cause his team problems, or knew you had nothing to stop the Outrage. Keep in mind, we're excluding if they've DD'd or not, making him that much harder to revenge-kill.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

The situations in which Salamence comes out into play are totally dependent on the rest of the team. Sure if you've eliminated all the opponents Scarfers, his Swampert, the rest of his steels, and have all the remaining members paralyzed then Salamence will be a force to be dealt with. However, this is why there are other aspects of Pokemon. It is up to you to make a suitable team that knows what it wants do, and knows how to get around what is strong against it. If Salamence is strong against your team with minimal lines of protection, then Salamence isn't uber, your team building is shit.

Let's go through some examples.

If you're just throwing 6 Pokemon together that you 'think fits' then it's a complete toss up to whether or not Salamence wil cause damage. If you're using a stall team, then you know you have your residuals down. You have a 31% buffer on all Salamence switch in's. And that still limits what you're coming in on. If you're facing a fast paced offensive team, Salamence will probably not do shit to you. You're either trying to set up DDGyara, SD Lucario, having a revenge killing Jirachi, or throwing in powerful fast cleaners such as Gengar or Infernape. Or yuo're using a more 'themed' team. Do you think Paralysis teams give a fuck about Salamence? It'll just paralyzed you and go from there, threat resolved. Or we choice teams. Salamence is no bigger threat to that than other Pokemons are in the same vein. If you get caught EQ'ing something as a flyer comes in, you're equally fucked, Salamence or not. It all comes down to your team's execution. If your team can't execute in any way to stop Salamence, you have a shitty team.

You can't use "depending on human intelligence." Otherwise every dumbass that gets raped by one but can't seem to use one correctly will deem it indefinitely uber as they would for any other threat.

So you're telling me I'm going to be facing max special attacks DD'ing Salamences with Draco Meteor and Outrage?

 

[Robb90000]

The situations in which Salamence comes out into play are totally dependent on the rest of the team. Sure if you've eliminated all the opponents Scarfers, his Swampert, the rest of his steels, and have all the remaining members paralyzed then Salamence will be a force to be dealt with. However, this is why there are other aspects of Pokemon. It is up to you to make a suitable team that knows what it wants do, and knows how to get around what is strong against it. If Salamence is strong against your team with minimal lines of protection, then Salamence isn't uber, your team building is shit.

Let's go through some examples.

If you're just throwing 6 Pokemon together that you 'think fits' then it's a complete toss up to whether or not Salamence wil cause damage. If you're using a stall team, then you know you have your residuals down. You have a 31% buffer on all Salamence switch in's. And that still limits what you're coming in on. If you're facing a fast paced offensive team, Salamence will probably not do shit to you. You're either trying to set up DDGyara, SD Lucario, having a revenge killing Jirachi, or throwing in powerful fast cleaners such as Gengar or Infernape. Or yuo're using a more 'themed' team. Do you think Paralysis teams give a fuck about Salamence? It'll just paralyzed you and go from there, threat resolved. Or we choice teams. Salamence is no bigger threat to that than other Pokemons are in the same vein. If you get caught EQ'ing something as a flyer comes in, you're equally fucked, Salamence or not. It all comes down to your team's execution. If your team can't execute in any way to stop Salamence, you have a shitty team.

You can't use "depending on human intelligence." Otherwise every dumbass that gets raped by one but can't seem to use one correctly will deem it indefinitely uber as they would for any other threat.

So you're telling me I'm going to be facing max special attacks DD'ing Salamences with Draco Meteor and Outrage?

Your first two points are valid, and I completely agree with them.

Since when did we care about an idiot's opinion? They just suck at battling.

Yes, I am saying you will be facing all of that, just not in a single battle. You have to prepare for every plausible threat as best you can, but some you just don't have the space to prepare for. That's Pokemon for you; no one team is the absolute best. But I put my two cents into the jar saying the closest thing possible would have a Salamence on it.

 

[shrang]

@shrang, pretty horrible typing, weak x4 Weak to fighting, and x2 for grass/water/ground, which is pretty terrible, his stats kind of make up for it, but his subpar defensive typing makes him not as good. Also he has a low speed >.>

Those are irrelevant. Tyranitar is perfectly capable of removing many checks to many sweepers. It does not matter if he has horrible typing or whatever. He's removing your Starmie, Cresselia, Rotom, whatever. He's not sweeping. If Tyranitar can remove Cresselia, Salamence's best counter, and a whole lot of other checks for other sweepers, he would fit the bill for the Support Characterstic much better than Mence can.

 

[purple crobatchop]

Thats another thing though, Salamence has amazing all round stats for such a powerful yet fast sweeper. It combined with its STAB Outrage/Draco Meteor + awesome EQs/Fire Blast make him a extremely powerful, not sure about the Uber status though, although I would find OU much more fun if he was.

EDIT: Most pokemon drop speed or raw power for higher defensive stats, salamence does neither, and as an added bonus, has intimidate

The power bit does not mean anything since Dragonite is about the same as well (nvm special atk). I think it's definitely speed that puts people off though.

And to the one about whether or not to create new tiers... I think we can agree that there will be a temporary Limbo tier between OU and UBer. Can wait for the new pseudo-legendary dragon to come out though. Hopefully it will have a huge influence in the metagame.

EDIT: Salamence does have to drop defense though.

 

[Shizzle]

Considering that Earthquake and Surf are amongst the most popular moves, I do think that it is incredibly relevant for Tyranitar. His speed is also an issue. As I said before, most pokemon give up good defenses or speed to remain brutally offensive, Salamence does not.

EDIT: @purple, you just contradicted what I said completely. Dragonite sacrifices speed, where 20 Base Speed is A LOT around that range especially.

 

[SJCrew]

Those are irrelevant. Tyranitar is perfectly capable of removing many checks to many sweepers. It does not matter if he has horrible typing or whatever. He's removing your Starmie, Cresselia, Rotom, whatever. He's not sweeping. If Tyranitar can remove Cresselia, Salamence's best counter, and a whole lot of other checks for other sweepers, he would fit the bill for the Support Characterstic much better than Mence can.

That's a ridiculous assessment. Removing one counter to one Pokemon doesn't make it a suspect, especially since said counter is rarely used and not even OU. Besides, it's more of a testament to Salamence's power if it only has one counter, rather than Tyranitar's ability to get rid of it.

Everything else is complete wash. Tyranitar can't take Gengar behind a sub, can't come in on Starmie's Hydro Pump, and won't do anything to Rotom if it switches in on Will-o-Wisp. Scarftar is the only variant that can effectively take these guys out to begin with and it's sorely lacking the power necessary to check anything other than frail sweepers, who might not even be applicable threats to the team's premier sweeper.

Basically, if Tyranitar isn't providing universal support, it's not good enough to a supporting Uber. The things it takes out even with Pursuit are way too specific to amount to anything other than a nuisance.

 

[shrang]

Removing one counter to one Pokemon doesn't make it a suspect, especially since said counter is rarely used and not even OU.

While Cresselia is one counter, there are plenty of Salamence checks. Actually, I'm quite sure other people have pointed out obscure checks like Regirock as well (Even though he requires Sand). Cresselia being "rarely used and not even OU" is mostly due to Tyranitar only, so yeah, if TTar wasn't around, you'd be sure Cress would be used much more often than she is now (Don't even bring up Scizor, he'd get fried by HP Fire if he got so annoying). You'd also be sure random checks like Scarf Gengar and Starmie would be more common as well, further limiting Mence's sweeping potential.

 

[dark]

Agreed with Dura.

OT: I agree with Salamence being uber on the grounds that it has only one true counter, Cresselia, and that is true-countered by the current #1 and #2 most used OU Pokemon in the current metagame, Scizor and Tyranitar. Even Regirock cannot call itself a true counter, needing Sandstorm support to survive the special hits.

As for predicting Salamence, you have more of a chance to be right (ex. If his head pops up late, he's more likely a DD, if against a wall, more likely Mix.), yet the consequence of being wrong is so severe it guarantees the loss of a team member, possibly an entire sweep if you're unprepared for such a threat.

When it comes to using him, however, you have the advantage of playing mind games with your opponent. First, you enjoy them guessing what set you are, and can take that a step further by assuming they guess correctly and still punishing them with an Earthquake or Fire Blast or early Outrage. Second, they now must guess when Mence is switching out -- again, not difficult, but it can penalize you horribly if you chose Protect when they switch or something to that effect --. Lastly, you now have to guess when he is showing his ugly head again. Still, this is not difficult once you figure out the set, but it's reliant on guessing right the first time, and your opponent has intelligence, more likely than not.*
*If you predict all three correctly, and with Stealth Rock in play, then you have successfully countered the Salamence threat. But Stealth Rock makes all the difference, meaning you have to take it even a step further in stopping the Rapid Spin to begin with.

Overall, it comes down to the team Salamence is on and the amount of skill that the player is using him with. With the correct support of a Rapid Spinner and a Wish user, and some amount of skill, you have a clearly overpowered Pokemon that will demolish you, given the opportunity. (Which a lot it has!)

Feel free to tear my arguement apart; I'm sure I'm missing some vital flaw.

a scarf starmie can easily counter any salamence set with ice beam, isn't this the perfect salamence counter and some people might use it since latias is now uber.

 

[purple crobatchop]

EDIT: @purple, you just contradicted what I said completely. Dragonite sacrifices speed, where 20 Base Speed is A LOT around that range especially.

The only way Salmence can use fire blast is to have a naive or Naughty, and only Naive or Rash is good for the mixed set. Salamence has to sacrifice defense. Or perhaps I am not too sure what you mean by "scarificing"?

@dark: The definition of a counter is that it can switch in safely against a Pokemon and pose an immediate threat. Satarmie fails the first critition.

 

[Shizzle]

Dragonite would have to do the same >.>, and thats not what I am referring to. I am referring to the actual base stats of a pokemon, OF COURSE THEY HAVE TO USE A MIXED NATURE, I mean what you pointed out is fairly obvious. Salamance has 95 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD, you don't think thats a little high for a pokemon with 135 Atk / 110 SpA / 100 SpA?

Lets look at some others around that speed level. Flygon only has 100 Atk / 80 SpA / 100 Spe, and its defenses are all base 80, weaker, yes, it has decent defenses, yet lacks tremendously in power compared to Salamence!! Scizor has 130 Atk / 55 SpA / 80 Spe, that means it can only be effective as a pure physical pokemon, making it easier to counter too, and its defenses of 70 HP / 100 Def / 80 SpD which is decent, has a speed level so low that it is fairly easily countered, and it should also be mentioned that Salamence has Intimidate.

In fact look at all other base 600 OU pokemon.
Jirachi - Well balanced....completely diverse yet not insanely powerful in any of its jobs.
Dragonite - Slow, inferior in terms of raw offense when compared to Salamence
Heatran - x4 to Ground [Earthquake] and x2 Water [Surf], also rather slow
Tyranitar - slow and many weaknesses
Metagross - slow
Celebi - same as Jirachi

I hope you get the point I am making >.>

 

[Randomdog]

I think we all need to go back to basics here.

When it comes down to it, there are two main styles of play when designing a pokemon team - Offensive and Stall. (I know this is a broad generalisation but it's effectively true - trying to strike a balance between offense and stall is of course possible but doesn't actually affect the relevancy of my next point and would just make it about 3 pages longer to explain in the long run.)

When you choose a style, you have pokemon which are the best in that style. This is indisputable, it's in the basics of the game and the competitive mindset that you don't want to use something that's worse at doing the same job than something else you have available.

Mence is one of the best attacking pokemon in OU. Again this is indisputable and people from both sides of this debate will agree with this. Latias was also one of the best offensive pokemon in OU. And now the discussion has moved on to Scizor, who is again, one of the best attacking pokemon in OU.

If all 3 end up uber then people who favour and offensive style of playing will be turned off the game.

We seem all too happy to ban the offensive threats but things like Blissey who can survive any special attack in the game (with a few exceptions, and even then it might use protect) hasn't even been considered for a ban.

I'm going to link to sirlin's 'Playing to Win' articles again (which IMO, should be read by everyone who posts in this topic)

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted.

Now, enforcable and discrete are no worries here, that's pretty obvious, the category I'm going to look at is 'warranted'

(I'm not quoting the entire passage because it's massive and a lot of it is about bugs in games, so I'll just get the important bits)

Warranted
Here is the whole issue, of course. If it isn’t warranted to ban something, we don’t need to even consider whether it’s enforceable or discrete. The great lesson of competitive games is that hardly anything warrants a ban.

I don't fully agree with this in the context of pokemon, some things DO need to be banned. But not EVERYTHING

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. It also creates artificial rules that alter the game, when it’s entirely possible that the game was just fine the way it was.

Does mence have counters? Answer - Yes.

It also usually leads to an avalanche of bans in order to be consistent with the first.

And that's the - 'lol, scizor is only played b coz mence' argument countered in one, if you ban one thing it WILL have a knock on effect. Remember that mence is only being considered because of the Garchomp ban.

When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted.

So as it stands, nobody can prove that the entirety of the OU metagame is reduced to 'Salamence or lose'


If the usage of mence ever gets close to 100% the ban should be considered. As it stands it isn't anywhere near that, its not even the most used.

I'm going to end with another quote which I think nicely sums up my entire argument.

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.

 

[Efemera]

I'm seeing a problem here. If Cresselia is probably the one counter that can take Salamence, and Tyranitar and Sandstorm is probably the only thing that really gives her big, big, problems (Scizor does too, I know, but just letting it U-Turning onto Zapdos isn't too much of a problem, not to mention Cress can run HP Fire anyway), why are we not Suspect testing Tyranitar for the Support Characteristic since he makes Salamence (And in Stage 3-3 Test, Manaphy) broken?? The number of things Tyranitar can remove from a battle is simply ridiculous. Spin blockers hate that thing. It's not only Salamence that is made very threatening with Tyranitar being used to remove checks. Gyarados loves Rotom-A being removed, Ape loves Starmie being removed. If Salamence is so broken because Cresselia is being hampered by TTar, I fail to see why Mence would be so hotly debated while no-one gives a fuck about Tyranitar (I mean, if we can do something as stupid as claim Dugtrio as a Suspect in UU, there is absolutely NO reason why we can't Suspect Test Tyranitar).

You do realize if we ban Tyranitar, we've done nothing about the problem. All you've done is make the game more about using Salamence and stopping it. Tyranitar is hardly broken. Its low speed and poor defensive typing really hampers it, in spite of its excellent stats.