OU The Ninjask Thread

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violet river said:
if anyone whose opinion matters actually had the drive to ban sand attack it would be gone. you shouldnt be trying to go directly up the chain, this is like peasants banging on the castle palisade because the baron raised taxes. you have to get the nobles on your side so that your yapping and bitching actually gets heard instead of battered aside. tldr either get good or get someone good to champion your cause
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You're not wrong, but I question the productivity and helpfulness of explaining the message in such a dismissive and "above you as a human" tone.

I do agree though, the issue with speedpass/sand attack ban is solely the fact it's not used in tournament enough to be a massive issue to the people with power to ban it.

I can only think of one prolific jasker in high level play in the past year (used it more than once in tournament), because while it can be consistent into certain strategies it's a inconsistent strategy overall. The smogon system is one the people in this thread can dislike, and I dislike it too, but unfortunately the only way out atm is to handle jask with your teams in the builder.

Some tech I like is to slap roar on your offcune/pert/etc or run a boltbeam mon. This usually for offense is enough to shut it down, and is alot easier to fit even though it can be outplayed by the jasker or they can run even more niche tech. It's unfortunate it comes to this, and some styles it's very obnoxious to fit like specoff, but you have no realistic option. (source: 1834 elo peak using jask)

I think this thread would be potentially better used at sharing more anti jask ideas in the builder, as it can be hard as a newer player to wrap your head around the lines you take to not get jaskwakcune'd.

Unfortunately this is the reality we live in. Every jerk and adver has mentioned the situation to higher ups and we all dislike it, but this kind of thread isn't doing anything unfortunately because simply bringing it up and how it's too common on ladder has been done before and didn't work. I especially don't think memes and specific targeted post (at users) aren't going to help either.
 
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Funkybeangamer said:
You're not wrong, but I question the productivity and helpfulness of explaining the message in such a dismissive and "above you as a human" tone.

I especially don't think memes and specific targeted post (at users) aren't going to help either.
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While I see the reasoning of why you would say this, I have not seen this same reaction towards https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-ou-metagame-discussion.3687814/post-10151497 , and I doubt a few memes will hurt them any
 
I'm bored so gonna write something here. Last 2 times I faced Ninjask, one it clicked sand attack 5 times, I didn't miss any moves and I rolled over their team, the second they would've prefered the coverage they could have gotten if they didn't waste the moveslot.

I find it wrong to name this thread "The Ninjask Thread", as Ninjask itself is fine, only seen people complain about Sand Attack. Gonna be real, I believe Sand Attack isn't even really viable on Ninjask. like yeah sure you can "fish" for misses but when those don't happen (Usually 67% of the time if an 100% accuracy move was clicked) you are either losing all the momentum you gained previously or Ninjask. After Protect, you'd usually like to have either a sub and an attack with a hidden power/silver wind or both of them, as the utility can prove itself much more important in revenge killing. Sand Attack isn't even considered usable on any other pokemon, I've MAYBE heard about sand attack jolteon as a meme before but that would be it, it's far from viable. I feel like no one considers it a serious option because it really isn't one, just a move someone tries to cheese in low ladder with and you can argue "Oh I've reached high ladder with it", yeah I'm trash and last time I felt like it I grinded top 10 with a team I now look back at and ask myself "What the ****" so yeah, you did it congrats, but is it reliable? Would you be able to say that by playing well all games nothing would stop you from getting there again with the gimicky team that relies so much on rng?

(Also if u are brave enough to do it, go ahead o.0, I'd love to see if people would start complaining about this too)
Madness Inc. (Jolteon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sand Attack
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
 
Msousa said:
I'm bored so gonna write something here. Last 2 times I faced Ninjask, one it clicked sand attack 5 times, I didn't miss any moves and I rolled over their team, the second they would've prefered the coverage they could have gotten if they didn't waste the moveslot.

I find it wrong to name this thread "The Ninjask Thread", as Ninjask itself is fine, only seen people complain about Sand Attack. Gonna be real, I believe Sand Attack isn't even really viable on Ninjask. like yeah sure you can "fish" for misses but when those don't happen (Usually 67% of the time if an 100% accuracy move was clicked) you are either losing all the momentum you gained previously or Ninjask. After Protect, you'd usually like to have either a sub and an attack with a hidden power/silver wind or both of them, as the utility can prove itself much more important in revenge killing. Sand Attack isn't even considered usable on any other pokemon, I've MAYBE heard about sand attack jolteon as a meme before but that would be it, it's far from viable. I feel like no one considers it a serious option because it really isn't one, just a move someone tries to cheese in low ladder with and you can argue "Oh I've reached high ladder with it", yeah I'm trash and last time I felt like it I grinded top 10 with a team I now look back at and ask myself "What the ****" so yeah, you did it congrats, but is it reliable? Would you be able to say that by playing well all games nothing would stop you from getting there again with the gimicky team that relies so much on rng?

(Also if u are brave enough to do it, go ahead o.0, I'd love to see if people would start complaining about this too)
Madness Inc. (Jolteon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sand Attack
- Agility
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
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So a few things.

1. This is The Ninjask Thread because, even without sand attack, Ninjask is kind of just not fun to deal with and, in my and many other people's opinions, is detrimental to the overall health of the tier.
2. Sand Attack Jask has been top 1 on ladder multiple times.
3. Even if it's not "reliable", Sand Attack on Ninjask makes the matchup even more polarizing than it already is. Like if you aren't exactly Celdanami, Ninjask is probably miserable to play against at the best of times. Combine this with suddenly you can just miss your roars and those games lose what little competitive merit they already had.
4. The difference between that Jolteon set and Ninjask is that Jolteon has to take a turn to Sand Attack and then another turn to Boost Speed, while Jask can do it in 1 while also clicking Protect and Substitute. Don't get me wrong, that Jolteon set should also be illegal but it's not nearly as polarizing as Sand Attack Jask is because you just get more opportunities to click your phazing move.


I love ADV OU, and I assume everyone in this thread does as well, and I think having this discussion is good for the tier. Even if nothing is done policy-wise we can at least determine how best to argue our points if and/or when the council becomes free.
 
let's give credit where credit is due because i was outside with sand attack ninjask all summer

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162327530?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162330942

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162327530?p2

Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Sand Attack

This thing is actually ridiculous, though I don't know if you can ban it with skarmory stopping it from boosting and passing- and already, skarmory is favored due to its resiliency against toxic damage, spikes, and sand.
 
mrnoodleoctopus said:
let's give credit where credit is due because i was outside with sand attack ninjask all summer

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162327530?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162330942

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-2162327530?p2

Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Sand Attack

This thing is actually ridiculous, though I don't know if you can ban it with skarmory stopping it from boosting and passing- and already, skarmory is favored due to its resiliency against toxic damage, spikes, and sand.
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with jask they always run mag.

usually this makes skarmdug pretty good into jask cuz skarm is a perfect counter
 
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I don’t know if my perspective is helpful or worthless here.

I’ve been perusing ADV OU threads, as I’m looking to get into it after fabulously losing my Round 3 match in the ongoing ADV ZU tournament, and I’ve been an ADV OU spectator for a while. So, for what it’s worth, I’m coming from the perspective of a newbie with no dog in this fight.

Just taking accuracy-lowering moves in isolation, isn’t it just blatantly uncompetitive and worsen the experience? It’s hard to imagine a context in which Sand-Attack or Smokescreen is healthy or has satisfying counterplay.

As far the concern for complex bans, I very much sympathize with not wanting to depart too far from true Pokémon or make the rules too many to keep track of. That being said, I don’t think banning Sand-Attack makes things more complicated in reality. Suppose Tackle is banned. Sure, it adds an extra line to the rules list, but does it really create more red tape in practice? Certainly not, since no one uses Tackle. While I concede Sand-Attack is, in fact, used, I would think the concern for lengthy rules is generally with expanding to new players like myself rather than those that know the rules and the meta backwards and forwards, and I would have a hard time imagining a world in which a newbie would rightly put Sand-Attack on a set, especially if they’re not seeing it used by opponents.

Maybe I’m missing some key information - which I am very much open to critique - but I think everything I’ve said here is perfectly logical.

Best,
Chaz
 
Chazual Fridays said:
Just taking accuracy-lowering moves in isolation, isn’t it just blatantly uncompetitive and worsen the experience? It’s hard to imagine a context in which Sand-Attack or Smokescreen is healthy or has satisfying counterplay.
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Why don't we ban freeze as a whole? The random 10% chance (Or 20% with Serene Grace) to potentially take a 'mon out permanently is intrinsically unfair, yet we resort to a complex alteration of the game's code to limit it. What about critical hits? Or flinch chances? Attack rolls? I don't see any clauses about those, despite seeing it affect tournament play numerous times. The most I hear is "The game giveth and the game taketh."

All of you 'jask haters keep trying to remove luck from a game that wouldn't exist without it. In an effort to make things more "fair" and "competitive", you paradoxically makes things uncompetitive by erecting laws that oppress those who are only using the tools laid before them to gain high ELO, despite obvious, common countermeasures existing in the meta right this second. You spurn God's design with venom, only to become the Tyrant yourself when given the chance. Rejecting the chaos and absurdity of this universe does nothing but leave you mad and broken inside. A wise man once told me that if I wished to play a game without elements of luck, I should go play chess instead. From that moment on, I learned to stop worrying and love the sand.
 
Spreek said:
I really can't understand the reasoning behind keeping sand attack. It is obviously uncompetitive and not good for the tier
.
"But it's not good/super niche." Fair, but that also means that very little is being lost by banning it.

"Muh complex ban. Too many rules hard to understand!" Adding an extra word to the evasion clause seems pretty easy to understand. As a relative newcomer here, I can say for sure I could just as easily have understood an accuracy + evasion ban as an evasion ban.
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largely, you're right. nobody's really in defense of sand attack, it adds nothing. but also it's largely irrelevant from a competitive standpoint. forumposters will complain about any part of a meta that they struggle to interact with - ddtar keeps sweeping my teams, baton pass is broken, whatever. If there's enough support from a competitive playerbase to warrant a sand attack ban, it will go through.
 
aeris999 said:
Why don't we ban freeze as a whole? The random 10% chance (Or 20% with Serene Grace) to potentially take a 'mon out permanently is intrinsically unfair, yet we resort to a complex alteration of the game's code to limit it. What about critical hits? Or flinch chances? Attack rolls? I don't see any clauses about those, despite seeing it affect tournament play numerous times. The most I hear is "The game giveth and the game taketh.".
Click to expand...

Obviously, the game is full of luck based outcomes which are not necessarily ideal for a competitive game. But there's a reason why you don't hear many calling for secondary effect mods, or crit mods, or rock slide flinch mods, etc. The game and the tier are balanced around them existing. If you removed freezes and other secondary effects, hard stall would probably be overbearing (there's a reason Milo is considered a hax magnet...). If you took out crits, cmers and cursers would probably be overbearing. You get the picture.

Comparatively, you could remove sand attack tomorrow, and nothing would change besides a few very niche degenerate strategies going away and everyone else's day being a little brighter. If we are analogizing, do we think Sand Attack is closer to Ice Beam freeze or to Swagger / Double Team? I'd go with the latter.
 
Also want to mention, I don't think Sand Attack jask has been seen in the ongoing ADV cup yet, but there have been (likely) two Sand Attack umbreon teams as part of a BP chain speed pass team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-785728?p2, roro won with this, which i'm like 90% sure has a sand attack taunt bp sub umbreon in the back. another player lost with the same team (forgot which player/series it was tbh, but someone can probably find it).

Honestly it just reinforces my view that this is primarily a sand attack problem, not a ninjask problem.
 
aeris999 said:
All of you 'jask haters keep trying to remove luck from a game that wouldn't exist without it. In an effort to make things more "fair" and "competitive", you paradoxically makes things uncompetitive by erecting laws that oppress those who are only using the tools laid before them to gain high ELO, despite obvious, common countermeasures existing in the meta right this second. You spurn God's design with venom, only to become the Tyrant yourself when given the chance. Rejecting the chaos and absurdity of this universe does nothing but leave you mad and broken inside. A wise man once told me that if I wished to play a game without elements of luck, I should go play chess instead. From that moment on, I learned to stop worrying and love the sand.
Click to expand...
IMG_2259.jpeg
 
aeris999 said:
Why don't we ban freeze as a whole? The random 10% chance (Or 20% with Serene Grace) to potentially take a 'mon
Click to expand...
aeris999 said:
Why don't we ban freeze as a whole? The random 10% chance (Or 20% with Serene Grace) to potentially take a 'mon out permanently is intrinsically unfair, yet we resort to a complex alteration of the game's code to limit it. What about critical hits? Or flinch chances? Attack rolls? I don't see any clauses about those, despite seeing it affect tournament play numerous times. The most I hear is "The game giveth and the game taketh."

All of you 'jask haters keep trying to remove luck from a game that wouldn't exist without it. In an effort to make things more "fair" and "competitive", you paradoxically makes things uncompetitive by erecting laws that oppress those who are only using the tools laid before them to gain high ELO, despite obvious, common countermeasures existing in the meta right this second. You spurn God's design with venom, only to become the Tyrant yourself when given the chance. Rejecting the chaos and absurdity of this universe does nothing but leave you mad and broken inside. A wise man once told me that if I wished to play a game without elements of luck, I should go play chess instead. From that moment on, I learned to stop worrying and love the sand.
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Y'all just get told "bug bad" and become Advent Children Sephiroth
The difference between the randomness of Sand Attack and everything else you mentioned is that often the moves with those effects are moves you'd click anyway
 
Croconaw Guy said:
The issue isn't Ninjask or Sand Attack, it's Baton Pass, as always. Just ban it on any Pokemon not named Zapdos, Celebi, Jolteon, or Vaporeon, limit to one abuser per team, and be done with this years-long debacle.
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Funnily enough, you just uncovered the hypocrisy of BP handling. I personally think that even 6 Mons chains are totally fine and can be adapted to without being massively weak to non BP strats. I do admit though that the majority thinks otherwise and I might be wrong.
What is the hypocrisy though is that I am pretty sure that if Zapdos and Celebi specifically (top Meta Mons) didn't learn BP, the move would have been entirely banned long ago, instead of endless nerfs. Smogon often protects top metagame threats while banning/nerfing irrelevant Mons if some of their strats are regarded as cheese/uncompetitive, but if banning that would make some dominant Mon worse (though I think Zapdos would still be crazy good without BP), the strategy is allowed to stay.
 
Eeveeto said:
Funnily enough, you just uncovered the hypocrisy of BP handling. I personally think that even 6 Mons chains are totally fine and can be adapted to without being massively weak to non BP strats. I do admit though that the majority thinks otherwise and I might be wrong.
What is the hypocrisy though is that I am pretty sure that if Zapdos and Celebi specifically (top Meta Mons) didn't learn BP, the move would have been entirely banned long ago, instead of endless nerfs. Smogon often protects top metagame threats while banning/nerfing irrelevant Mons if some of their strats are regarded as cheese/uncompetitive, but if banning that would make some dominant Mon worse (though I think Zapdos would still be crazy good without BP), the strategy is allowed to stay.
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Damn it's kinda like oldgens have identity and shouldn't be homogenized by tiering policy based around modern metagames and mechanics. That's crazy I know. It's kinda like Baton Pass (with the exception of Ninjask) adds more to the metagame than it takes away. Like boo hoo you can't click Sand Attack or Baton Pass with ninjask anymore. Anyway I don't think you have much room to talk about bad tiering decisions given your opinions on
A. Arena Trap in this generation
B. Chlorophyll in Gen 5

If you said you hated Jolteon I'd be on board tho sarcasm
 
if Gen 3 OU ever decides to ban inaccurate sleep moves, I think Mash should go as well.
Turn 20

The opposing Heracross used Swords Dance!
The opposing Heracross's Attack rose sharply!

Skarmortis used Roar!

Metagross was dragged out!
The opposing Metagross was hurt by the spikes!

Turn 21

Skarmortis used Protect!
Skarmortis protected itself!

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
Skarmortis protected itself!

Turn 22

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
(Skarmortis lost 35% of its health!)

Skarmortis used Counter!
(The opposing Metagross lost 75% of its health!)

Skarmortis restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 23

Skarmortis is paralyzed! It can't move!

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
(Skarmortis lost 71% of its health!)
The opposing Metagross's Attack rose!

Skarmortis fainted!
☆gnore: all the stuff
gnore has 120 seconds left.

Go! Milium (Milotic)!

Milium restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 24

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
(Milium lost 68% of its health!)
The opposing Metagross's Attack rose!

Milium fainted!
gnore has 120 seconds left.

Go! Hariose (Hariyama)!

Hariose restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
 
gnore said:
if Gen 3 OU ever decides to ban inaccurate sleep moves, I think Mash should go as well.
Turn 20

The opposing Heracross used Swords Dance!
The opposing Heracross's Attack rose sharply!

Skarmortis used Roar!

Metagross was dragged out!
The opposing Metagross was hurt by the spikes!

Turn 21

Skarmortis used Protect!
Skarmortis protected itself!

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
Skarmortis protected itself!

Turn 22

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
(Skarmortis lost 35% of its health!)

Skarmortis used Counter!
(The opposing Metagross lost 75% of its health!)

Skarmortis restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 23

Skarmortis is paralyzed! It can't move!

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
(Skarmortis lost 71% of its health!)
The opposing Metagross's Attack rose!

Skarmortis fainted!
☆gnore: all the stuff
gnore has 120 seconds left.

Go! Milium (Milotic)!

Milium restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 24

The opposing Metagross used Meteor Mash!
It's not very effective...
A critical hit!
(Milium lost 68% of its health!)
The opposing Metagross's Attack rose!

Milium fainted!
gnore has 120 seconds left.

Go! Hariose (Hariyama)!

Hariose restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
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That isn´t proof of brokeness, that´s you or the opponent having bad RNG.
 
Not super active but play (high) ladder here and there. My view is that Ninjask is really not that bad or uncompetitive. I think people really overexaggerate the lack of 'reliable' counters to it. I also don't think it is as one dimensional/simplistic playstyle as people make out, at least not as much as dragmag/old baton pass/some HO, at least from what I've seen.

I would be in favor of a sand attack ban if it was allowed, as I think that is just RNG and doesn't really add anything. Not sure if it makes Ninjask 'broken', more just makes you lose some games that you should win,. Without sand-attack though I haven't seen nearly enough from Ninjask to warrant a ban. I don't think it has a good enough chance to win vs most teams if you are just clicking. If there is legitimate thought and skill needed to play it, and that can make it a viable team strategy, then what exactly is the argument against it?

If sand-attack ban is not allowed as it is looking like, I'm holding judgement on whether this makes Ninjask itself broken, though at this point I would err on the side of 'no'. Though maybe just ban it anyway because it's annoying and rng.

TL;DR: Sand Attack is annoying and pointless, ban if allowed. Ninjask without sand attack is totally fine. Ninjask with sand-attack I'm not sure.
 
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Olliert said:
Not super active but play (high) ladder here and there. My view is that Ninjask is really not that bad or uncompetitive. I think people really overexaggerate the lack of 'reliable' counters to it. I also don't think it is as one dimensional/simplistic playstyle as people make out, at least not as much as dragmag/old baton pass/some HO, at least from what I've seen.

I would be in favor of a sand attack ban if it was allowed, as I think that is just RNG and doesn't really add anything. Not sure if it makes Ninjask 'broken', more just makes you lose some games that you should win,. Without sand-attack though I haven't seen nearly enough from Ninjask to warrant a ban. I don't think it has a good enough chance to win vs most teams if you are just clicking. If there is legitimate thought and skill needed to play it, and that can make it a viable team strategy, then what exactly is the argument against it?

If sand-attack ban is not allowed as it is looking like, I'm holding judgement on whether this makes Ninjask itself broken, though at this point I would err on the side of 'no'. Though maybe just ban it anyway because it's annoying and rng.

TL;DR: Sand Attack is annoying and pointless, ban if allowed. Ninjask without sand attack is totally fine. Ninjask with sand-attack I'm not sure.
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I mean the problem with jask is that using it makes people hate you so top tournament players don't use it for presumably that reason. Like you'll see all sorts of random bullshit in tours, most of it much worse than Ninjask, but Ninjask is almost never seen.
 
YubelVT said:
I mean the problem with jask is that using it makes people hate you so top tournament players don't use it for presumably that reason. Like you'll see all sorts of random bullshit in tours, most of it much worse than Ninjask, but Ninjask is almost never seen.
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This was probably true like 15 years ago but really isn't the case anymore. Several top players have used ninjask in tournament and as far as i know haven't suffered any sort of loss of reputation. It's a very rare pick because it isn't good or consistent.
Also, please back that second statement up... maybe you're seeing random bullshit that's worse than ninjask in tournament, but I'm not and I think I follow most of the tournament scene pretty well.
 
Siglut said:
This was probably true like 15 years ago but really isn't the case anymore. Several top players have used ninjask in tournament and as far as i know haven't suffered any sort of loss of reputation. It's a very rare pick because it isn't good or consistent.
Also, please back that second statement up... maybe you're seeing random bullshit that's worse than ninjask in tournament, but I'm not and I think I follow most of the tournament scene pretty well.
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I now know this screenshot is fake and I sincerely apologize.
 

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