-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
The true OU metagame. Discussion on the "theorymon metagame" belongs in the Other Metagames thread, as does discussion of the old theorymons (Defog Hydreigon, Slack Off Blastoise, etc.).
We do not take into account other theorymons in our analyses.
Anyway, i saw many post about Virizion but i'm still affraid flowerveil is far enough to make it shine in OU.
To be clear, with flower veil, virizion have no trouble with status anymore; but it had only few issues with status, those from chansey/blissey,wow from rotom, toxic from Gliscor, and thunder waves from thundurus (which btw can surprised it with HP fly but that an other story). Was it what Virizion needed, i have doubt when i see bigger issues it has to manage that year ==> Fairy type and Flying moves which are very common, and a quite restricted offensive movepool (with only giga drain, focust blast and energy ball/grass knot in the special spectrum).
The abillity is great anyway and may have competitive use, but i believe virizion takes too few profit from it giving its own issues.
Last edited:
But Virizion gets everything it needs in Calm Mind / Focus Blast / Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Ice], or you can forgo Hidden Power for Synthesis, making it all the harder to take down. Seriously, this thing has Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Speed, Special Defense, an amazing ability, and Synthesis. This is just really great and everyone's ignoring the fact its now immune to Intimidate and other stat droppers. It's technically a Magic Guard bar the immunity to hazards.
But Virizion can get to +4 before dying to Seismic Toss if it holds Leftovers. Virizion uses Calm Mince once as Chansey comes in, and then three more times as Chansey uses Seismic Toss, after which Virizion is left with 321 - 300 + 60 (3 turns of Lefties) = 81. And at +4 Giga Drain does 183 damage minimum to 252 HP Eviolite Chansey, which means that Virizion will be healing 91 + 20 (Lefties) = 111 minimum each turn, which is enough to outheal the damage done by S-Toss. So CM Virizion always comes out on top.
Im looking forward to being able to use SD Virizion and be immune to will-o and intimidate. Makes it pretty good, minus the removed justified :x
Flower Veil Virizion - This isn't a bad suggestion but I really don't think much will get Virizion out of UU. (It was banned from RU or something, right?) I really like Virizion as a concept but it's just not all that suitable for OU level play with Aegislash, Mega Charizard-X, and flyspam everywhere.
Edit: I do now see its merits against stall (besides Clefable), though. I guess that's a pretty cool niche, but I'm not sure why I wouldn't just use pretty much any Magic Guard/Taunt user to accomplish a similar thing. The favorable match-up against Chansey is pretty valuable, though.
Shed Skin Zygarde - While RestSkin is unreliable, Shed Skin now allows Zygarde to forfeit Substitute and occasionally shrug off Toxic and burns. I can't say for certain though, as I never played with Scrafty last generation and I can't really vouch for how useful of an ability Shed Skin is on boosting sets. This will be more interesting to see how it plays out since Zygarde is a teamslot choice that doesn't require very much support at all. It's relatively self-sufficient.
Scrappy Forretress - Still doesn't fix Forretress' complete lack of offensive presence, which is honestly its main issue. Sorry to beat a dead horse but I would have much rather use the Refrigerator Avalugg I suggested before for its offensive threat. Forretress is entirely useless outside of Rapid Spin and hazard setting, and I would honestly much sooner use Excadrill or Defog (with Stealth Rock on something else), since Excadrill still heavily threatens the most common spin blockers (Aegislash/Gengar).
Competitive Mega Houndoom - I can't say for sure. Houndoom's base form's defenses are NOT okay, so predicting incorrectly and switching into a Zapdos' Thunderbolt, Lati@s' Draco Meteor/Surf, or really any other Defog user's attacks (besides Mandibuzz's Foul Play) seems really common since a switch into Houndoom is relatively predictable. It doesn't have a bad match up against Mandibuzz (if running Taunt) or support Latias, but it just can't reliably switch in and not get wrecked with its terrible base defenses. Once it's mega evolved, though, its defenses are actually decent, but it still has common weaknesses to Water-, Ground-, Rock-, and Fighting-type attacks that really outweigh its useful resistances when common Defog users get to outspeed this thing and hit twice (although Latios must be wary of Sucker Punch).
I'm probably going to end up voting for Shed Skin Zygarde, honestly, since it's a good upgrade to a bulky set up sweeper that is not all too far off in viability for OU play.
Edit: I do now see its merits against stall (besides Clefable), though. I guess that's a pretty cool niche, but I'm not sure why I wouldn't just use pretty much any Magic Guard/Taunt user to accomplish a similar thing. The favorable match-up against Chansey is pretty valuable, though.
Shed Skin Zygarde - While RestSkin is unreliable, Shed Skin now allows Zygarde to forfeit Substitute and occasionally shrug off Toxic and burns. I can't say for certain though, as I never played with Scrafty last generation and I can't really vouch for how useful of an ability Shed Skin is on boosting sets. This will be more interesting to see how it plays out since Zygarde is a teamslot choice that doesn't require very much support at all. It's relatively self-sufficient.
Scrappy Forretress - Still doesn't fix Forretress' complete lack of offensive presence, which is honestly its main issue. Sorry to beat a dead horse but I would have much rather use the Refrigerator Avalugg I suggested before for its offensive threat. Forretress is entirely useless outside of Rapid Spin and hazard setting, and I would honestly much sooner use Excadrill or Defog (with Stealth Rock on something else), since Excadrill still heavily threatens the most common spin blockers (Aegislash/Gengar).
Competitive Mega Houndoom - I can't say for sure. Houndoom's base form's defenses are NOT okay, so predicting incorrectly and switching into a Zapdos' Thunderbolt, Lati@s' Draco Meteor/Surf, or really any other Defog user's attacks (besides Mandibuzz's Foul Play) seems really common since a switch into Houndoom is relatively predictable. It doesn't have a bad match up against Mandibuzz (if running Taunt) or support Latias, but it just can't reliably switch in and not get wrecked with its terrible base defenses. Once it's mega evolved, though, its defenses are actually decent, but it still has common weaknesses to Water-, Ground-, Rock-, and Fighting-type attacks that really outweigh its useful resistances when common Defog users get to outspeed this thing and hit twice (although Latios must be wary of Sucker Punch).
I'm probably going to end up voting for Shed Skin Zygarde, honestly, since it's a good upgrade to a bulky set up sweeper that is not all too far off in viability for OU play.
Last edited:
Gawd that's actually pretty damn sweet. On the note on beating chansey, it can also viably run a work up set considering its special bulk doesn't exactly need boosting. The work up/cc/giga drain/stone edge from last gen's analysis looks pretty solid too. Biggest problem that set had are intimidate and status since it was boosting slower than sd or CM, but flower veil solves both.
Last edited:
Shed Skin Zygarde is definitely my favorite of this group. If anyone remembers SS Scrafty in early BW, you know that that thing was a major pain because SS is actually pretty damn effective at keeping you healthy. I'm actually not sure why DD is not being brought up as a really viable option. Zygarde's bulk (backed by shed skin for status) is more than enough to handle priority attacks, but it's special attackers he fears more. DD can easily life you up beyond that worry so you can go on an effing sweep (getting to +2 is really not that hard...).
?
By the way, regarding Shed Skin Zygarde it is too bad it is already immune to Thunder Wave, removing that is the biggest use of Shed Skin pretty much imo. Really helps vs Thundurus and such. Though, setting up versus something with Will-O-Wisp and hoping Shed Skin kicks in can be nice too, also really helps with Scald, but I don't think it's enough to make me use it if I wouldn't otherwise.
As for Scrappy Forretress, meh. Forretress is pretty shit anyway, I suppose spinning versus Aegislash can be nice but on the other hand you can usually just Spike on the Ghost switchin and it works fine, and that way you still have Sturdy. I mean, it's a nice improvement but eh.
Flower Veil Virizion is nice. Something that can reliably switch in on Scald, holy shit. Though, its BW1 glory days are over. It loses horribly to Aegislash. Water mons aaren't that prominent either (or rain) and basically it's Kelldeo which can just Secret Sword your ass. Still, I think it's a pretty nice suggestion even though status is not really that big of a deal for Virizion anyway, but it is a nice fit on Dual Screens HO team, because it is sometimes viable on that for breaking through Quagsire but the item was an annoying tossup between Lum and LO, where both had annoying flaws but that is fixed by Flower Veil which is nice.
I'm aware it is a kind of magic guard but that can help it in only few and specific cases. As you mentioned, its only fighting stab on the special side is focus blast that have a very bad 70% accuracy and may cost you a win many times. Moreover, using HP ice is good for the coverage but the drop of efficiency of HP that gen is quite anoying and make that choice less reliable than it was before.
For the chansey thing, that is impressive and is one of those few cases where this abillity can improve virizion's efficiency. But if the chansey's owner is aware of that, it can simply decrease the virizion health about 50% and switch into a true counter has they are not rare with that huge flying weakness and lack of Def. Anyway, i guess that is good to lose one of those counter and not being forced to use close combat.
To end with the virizion case, i just saw few S and A threat that it can check or threaten. If you add the fact it can be revenge kill quite easly and its frailness on the physical spectrum. we may understand a bit better why we don't see it a lot in OU, the Flower Veil add won't fix it.
Last edited:
Putting your name Tomahawk, i didn't see your PM because Agile Turtle PMed me the latest submission, but you were first.?
By the way, regarding Shed Skin Zygarde it is too bad it is already immune to Thunder Wave, removing that is the biggest use of Shed Skin pretty much imo. Really helps vs Thundurus and such. Though, setting up versus something with Will-O-Wisp and hoping Shed Skin kicks in can be nice too, also really helps with Scald, but I don't think it's enough to make me use it if I wouldn't otherwise.
As for Scrappy Forretress, meh. Forretress is pretty shit anyway, I suppose spinning versus Aegislash can be nice but on the other hand you can usually just Spike on the Ghost switchin and it works fine, and that way you still have Sturdy. I mean, it's a nice improvement but eh.
Flower Veil Virizion is nice. Something that can reliably switch in on Scald, holy shit. Though, its BW1 glory days are over. It loses horribly to Aegislash. Water mons aaren't that prominent either (or rain) and basically it's Kelldeo which can just Secret Sword your ass. Still, I think it's a pretty nice suggestion even though status is not really that big of a deal for Virizion anyway, but it is a nice fit on Dual Screens HO team, because it is sometimes viable on that for breaking through Quagsire but the item was an annoying tossup between Lum and LO, where both had annoying flaws but that is fixed by Flower Veil which is nice.
Forretress doesn't need offensive pressure to be good with scrappy. Scrappy makes it like the most reliable spinner ever with amazing physical bulk and the fact it can set up all hazards and spin on spin blockers.
Hm... this is a fairly interesting slate. I haven't been doing a great job of keeping up with things around here, so let's try to fix that a bit.
Flower Veil Virizion and Shed Skin Zygarde are much more directly comparable than most theorymon because they're basically the same concept slapped onto two different Pokemon. Both are capable boosting sweepers that handle status fairly easily. Virizion's ability is a lot better, as it offers immunity to non-volatile status as opposed to the chance to heal it off, PLUS immunity to Sticky Web and the like. Both have advantages and disadvantages over one-another. Virizion has better speed, but no way to boost it, and only base 90 Atk and SpA (at least Zygarde gets 100 Atk to work with.) Both have crippling weaknesses, but Virizion's Flying weakness is a lot worse than Zygarde's Ice weakness. Virizion is very frail on the physical side, while Zygarde is a bit modest on the special end of that spectrum (though really only in comparison to his physical bulk.) They both have interesting competitive value, and I think the argument for each hinges on which one is better at the job of boosting. I'd lean towards Zygarde myself, but I can totally see Virizion as a threat.
Scrappy Forretress doesn't seem like enough to warrant much discussion or use. Refrigerate Avalugg also hinged on the concept of an unblockable spin, which isn't really all that great when Excadrill exists. The two main Ghosts Gengar and Aegislash don't want to switch in on a (Mold Breaker,) EQ with STAB from 135 Atk already, so coming in on the premier spinner of OU is already extremely risky. Meanwhile, Forretress can spin away hazards/set them up, but he's not doing much besides. What's stopping Gengar from getting a Sub up, or Aegislash from doing any of the several thousand things it can do to ruin your day? Forretress could run Payback or Scrappy Explosion to deter them, but when you want moveslots for Rapid Spin, a hazard (or two,) Volt Switch or Gyro Ball, it's a bit hard to fit those in. It's not like they're even very effective. Both need investment to even OHKO Gengar. I'll just stick with Excadrill, thanks.
Competitive (Mega) Houndoom is a bit tricky, considering his typing isn't as good from a defensive standpoint as Bisharp's, and neither are his defensive stats (for the most part.) Houndoom doesn't have priority that works off his primary attacking stat (nor is it boosted by Competitive,) so that's another point against him. He's got some pros, such as not being ruined by WoW, but I don't think they're enough.
Flower Veil Virizion and Shed Skin Zygarde are much more directly comparable than most theorymon because they're basically the same concept slapped onto two different Pokemon. Both are capable boosting sweepers that handle status fairly easily. Virizion's ability is a lot better, as it offers immunity to non-volatile status as opposed to the chance to heal it off, PLUS immunity to Sticky Web and the like. Both have advantages and disadvantages over one-another. Virizion has better speed, but no way to boost it, and only base 90 Atk and SpA (at least Zygarde gets 100 Atk to work with.) Both have crippling weaknesses, but Virizion's Flying weakness is a lot worse than Zygarde's Ice weakness. Virizion is very frail on the physical side, while Zygarde is a bit modest on the special end of that spectrum (though really only in comparison to his physical bulk.) They both have interesting competitive value, and I think the argument for each hinges on which one is better at the job of boosting. I'd lean towards Zygarde myself, but I can totally see Virizion as a threat.
Scrappy Forretress doesn't seem like enough to warrant much discussion or use. Refrigerate Avalugg also hinged on the concept of an unblockable spin, which isn't really all that great when Excadrill exists. The two main Ghosts Gengar and Aegislash don't want to switch in on a (Mold Breaker,) EQ with STAB from 135 Atk already, so coming in on the premier spinner of OU is already extremely risky. Meanwhile, Forretress can spin away hazards/set them up, but he's not doing much besides. What's stopping Gengar from getting a Sub up, or Aegislash from doing any of the several thousand things it can do to ruin your day? Forretress could run Payback or Scrappy Explosion to deter them, but when you want moveslots for Rapid Spin, a hazard (or two,) Volt Switch or Gyro Ball, it's a bit hard to fit those in. It's not like they're even very effective. Both need investment to even OHKO Gengar. I'll just stick with Excadrill, thanks.
Competitive (Mega) Houndoom is a bit tricky, considering his typing isn't as good from a defensive standpoint as Bisharp's, and neither are his defensive stats (for the most part.) Houndoom doesn't have priority that works off his primary attacking stat (nor is it boosted by Competitive,) so that's another point against him. He's got some pros, such as not being ruined by WoW, but I don't think they're enough.
Kinda disappointed by the mons this time round. Sturdy is really nice on forretress due to its special defense and extends its role while your opponent doesnt have hazards up, allowing it to get up hazards as long as your opponent doesn't have taunt and if avalugg isnt strong enough with refridgerate (which grants him additional fantastic offensive power and the ability to 2hko dragons with rapid spin.. i mean cmon) then giving forretress scrappy is a completely tiny buff in comparison. sSure forretress is a better pokemon to begin with, but eh..
Also I kinda feel stuff like scrappy forretress is cool and all but we have discussed this sort of mon before and it doesnt create much interesting discussion or even create anything metagame changing or particularly unique. What I liked about refridgerate avaluggs unblockable rapid spin was that it did 60+% to 4x ice weak dragons and therefore did actual damage, not to mention its newfound strength in ice Return/double-edge, and created something unique. Forretress basically gets access to defog with this, and unblockable rapid spin is not really anything crazy without bringing anything else to the table whatsoever, unless Im missing something. I guess it fits the thread aim but I really enjoy talking about stuff that creates discussion and thought n stuff and I hope more stuff like that is on the next slate, as none of these mons have to change their movesets whatsoever with their new buffs. They all become better at the thing they already do
I will probably vote for flower veil virizion
Also I kinda feel stuff like scrappy forretress is cool and all but we have discussed this sort of mon before and it doesnt create much interesting discussion or even create anything metagame changing or particularly unique. What I liked about refridgerate avaluggs unblockable rapid spin was that it did 60+% to 4x ice weak dragons and therefore did actual damage, not to mention its newfound strength in ice Return/double-edge, and created something unique. Forretress basically gets access to defog with this, and unblockable rapid spin is not really anything crazy without bringing anything else to the table whatsoever, unless Im missing something. I guess it fits the thread aim but I really enjoy talking about stuff that creates discussion and thought n stuff and I hope more stuff like that is on the next slate, as none of these mons have to change their movesets whatsoever with their new buffs. They all become better at the thing they already do
I will probably vote for flower veil virizion
People are once again making the same mistake they made with Refrigerate Avalugg - Scrappy Forretress' matchup against Ghost-types does not matter anymore. You switch a Ghost in on him, so what? He spins anyways. Mission accomplished. You may as well have switched in any one of your other 5 mons.
Instead of focusing on his matchup against any given Ghost-types, talk about any of the dozens of mons that use him as setup bait. Whether or not they are a Ghost-type is irrelevant.
All in all, Scrappy Forretress is completely outclassed by the previous concept of Refrigerate Avalugg, which didn't perform too well itself. At least Avalugg had an offensive presence. Refrigerated Returns hurt.
Instead of focusing on his matchup against any given Ghost-types, talk about any of the dozens of mons that use him as setup bait. Whether or not they are a Ghost-type is irrelevant.
All in all, Scrappy Forretress is completely outclassed by the previous concept of Refrigerate Avalugg, which didn't perform too well itself. At least Avalugg had an offensive presence. Refrigerated Returns hurt.
Shed Skin Rest is cool too. It's something you don't see much because the only remotely relevant Shed Skin Pokemon is Scrafty, whose Bulk Up set isn't even that good anyways. But on something with actual bulk and a good boosting moves such as Dragon Dance and Coil, it could be really cool. I'd say more, but I honestly can't remember what else I was going to say except that it's a cool idea.
While it is true that Forretress lacks offensive pressure, it has a much better defensive typing that doesn't make it weak to SR, it has Volt Switch to act as a slow pivot, and it can set up hazards, all of which make it quite different from Avalugg.
Does the world really need more incentive to use talonflame? If elected, all virizion would do is feed the monopoly.
Vote for zygarde, he'll stop that menace in its tracks, and he'll do it for you!
Vote for zygarde, he'll stop that menace in its tracks, and he'll do it for you!
In a world where your hopes are ravaged by dark and ghost types, does the world really need to be assaulted by a beast that is at once both a stronger and faster Bisharp but hits on the opposite side of the offensive spectrum? Let it be known that when the world is ravaged by the Blasts of Fire from the Hell Hound scourge, there was one who tried to save you from tyranny with his unwavering stance on his sole job.
then we have a competitor who hides behind the veil of "flowers", never letting us know the true motives he hops to attain by gaining the win. Does he seek to be the king of grass types by his ability to decimate the feared Chansey or is he trying to get the vote only to further his own agenda of no longer being regarded as second fiddle to the bull and pony? With this one's veil, the world may never know.
Finally, do you really want to vote for wyrm that may be capable of changing its skin? Why would you vote for one who may shed off a burn one minute only for the next seeing it reveal its true nature by stealing your macadamia nuts!? How can you trust a candidate that seems to do one thing then another just by changing his "skin"?
Vote for a true winner today, and only one can be that winner. Vote for a new slate to have candidates that wont all be such corrupt monguls or at the very least, the safest pick and most useless of them all.
Forretress ftw yall.
then we have a competitor who hides behind the veil of "flowers", never letting us know the true motives he hops to attain by gaining the win. Does he seek to be the king of grass types by his ability to decimate the feared Chansey or is he trying to get the vote only to further his own agenda of no longer being regarded as second fiddle to the bull and pony? With this one's veil, the world may never know.
Finally, do you really want to vote for wyrm that may be capable of changing its skin? Why would you vote for one who may shed off a burn one minute only for the next seeing it reveal its true nature by stealing your macadamia nuts!? How can you trust a candidate that seems to do one thing then another just by changing his "skin"?
Vote for a true winner today, and only one can be that winner. Vote for a new slate to have candidates that wont all be such corrupt monguls or at the very least, the safest pick and most useless of them all.
Forretress ftw yall.
Don't vote for Forretress. Who knows what it is hiding under its shell? How can you vote for something which won't even show its face?
A vote for Mega Houndoom is literally selling your soul to the devil.
Zygarde is just too creepy to win. What the hell is it? Is it a bug? A snake? A dragon? It's really slimy. Its eyes are weird.
Virizion will gouge you for crappy cell phone service. Don't vote for it.
Since none of the candidates on the ballot look appealing, cast a write-in vote for Huge Power Infernape who has overwhelming support from children under the age of 10.
A vote for Mega Houndoom is literally selling your soul to the devil.
Zygarde is just too creepy to win. What the hell is it? Is it a bug? A snake? A dragon? It's really slimy. Its eyes are weird.
Virizion will gouge you for crappy cell phone service. Don't vote for it.
Since none of the candidates on the ballot look appealing, cast a write-in vote for Huge Power Infernape who has overwhelming support from children under the age of 10.
Woah man, are you being specist with that? Not cool. Just because Zygarde looks different than you doesn't mean it doesn't want to protect your children from Talonflame.
And just cause that's one goal of Zygarde does not mean that's all the legend wants to do with them children.
Last edited:
- Status