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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
- Status
please dont put Durant in D-Rank because a only reason: he set-up in Pursuit users except Fire Blast Tyranitar, making a good partner of Pursuit weak pokemons like Latios, and people know of the power of Durant before one Hone Claws, Also you can run with Lum Berry making set up bait SDef Jirachi, SDef Celebi, Ferrothorn even Breloom that Go for Spore,And Even Scald users in Rain, but i prefer LO Because without LO you need dual screens to beat Landorus-T (Iron head 3HKO and EQ 2HKO), sadly has many flaws like general difficult set up and SuperPower nasty downside effect, But Durant isnt most times a trash bag like E rank Pokemons
Also this is my opinion of C Rank
TOP
Azelf
Azumarill
Cobalion
Cresselia
Empoelon (This Can be B-Rank easily)
Froslass
Heracross
Lilligant
Moltres
Sawsbuck
Slowbro
Slowking
Shaymin
MID
Chandelure
Crustle
Durant
Jolteon
Meloetta
Metagross
Porygon2
Rotom-Heat
Sandslash
Staraptor
Vaporeon
Virizion
Victreebel
Zoroark
LOW
Aerodactyl
Crobat
Ditto
Donphan
Smeargle
Nidoqueen
Also this is my opinion of C Rank
TOP
Azelf
Azumarill
Cobalion
Cresselia
Empoelon (This Can be B-Rank easily)
Froslass
Heracross
Lilligant
Moltres
Sawsbuck
Slowbro
Slowking
Shaymin
MID
Chandelure
Crustle
Durant
Jolteon
Meloetta
Metagross
Porygon2
Rotom-Heat
Sandslash
Staraptor
Vaporeon
Virizion
Victreebel
Zoroark
LOW
Aerodactyl
Crobat
Ditto
Donphan
Smeargle
Nidoqueen
Yeah I hate to be that guy wanting the "bad mon" to move up but honestly I feel like Staraptor could be somewhere in B Rank if someone gave it a chance. How many of you have honestly used it more than once or twice?
Admittedly, it does have a lot of weakness such as being super frail combined with the fact it literally with almost kill itself with what moves it has to use (recoil/U-Turn compounding SR damage) but the thing is, without a doubt in my mind, the best Pokemon to use with a Choice item. Normal/Flying/Fighting/Bug coverage is actually insane and the thing hits like a truck. I'm not saying it's like A+ rank but as long as you have some way to deal with Rotom-W and Thundy-T there's not much that can take a hit from it and it can probably nab you 1-2 KO's before killing itself. I don't care if it doesn't move up but there's absolutely no reason it should be D-Rank when Infernape suffers from some of the same problems bar SR and it isn't D-Rank.
Admittedly, it does have a lot of weakness such as being super frail combined with the fact it literally with almost kill itself with what moves it has to use (recoil/U-Turn compounding SR damage) but the thing is, without a doubt in my mind, the best Pokemon to use with a Choice item. Normal/Flying/Fighting/Bug coverage is actually insane and the thing hits like a truck. I'm not saying it's like A+ rank but as long as you have some way to deal with Rotom-W and Thundy-T there's not much that can take a hit from it and it can probably nab you 1-2 KO's before killing itself. I don't care if it doesn't move up but there's absolutely no reason it should be D-Rank when Infernape suffers from some of the same problems bar SR and it isn't D-Rank.
LOL wtf? How the hell is Snorkax D Rank. Dude, it's one of the best tanks ever used in UU. This thing, can stop Chandelure even if he had Shadow Tag thanks to the ability Thick Fat and his really awesome special bulk. Plus, he has really amazing bulk and possesses a very high HP unlike any other pokemon. Thick Fat is one of the reasons why Snorlax is popular used, meaning he can take powerful hits in the sun, such as a sun-boosted Fire Blast from a Ninetales, which doesn't even make a 2KO range on Snorlax. His huge collosal attack is also one thing, meaning that he can take hits, while hitting hard at the same time. Heck, he can also run a Choice Banded set, which OKOs and 2KOs most of the metagame! Snorlax also has a niche in beating Gengar in 1v1 if it runs crunch, which Blissey really wants, since Gengar fucks Blissey. Snorlax Dude, Snorlax is powerful, if used correctly. I mean, screw D rank, heck he should be B rank for this.
Pretty much everything Vertex said and more. In OU, the Normal-typing isn't treated too kindly offensively or defensively. There's Fighting-types around every corner that can easily OHKO pretty much any variant of Snorlax. Even with Snorlax's monstrous bulk, Snorlax does not like to take rain boosted Hydro Pumps or, heck, even sun boosted Fire Blasts. It's speed doesn't help it much either, and it has to rely a lot on its bulk to deal any kind of hit. Most of the time, Snorlax can only get 1-2 hits off before fainting, because OU is so offensive that Snorlax literally can't keep up. The only niche that Snorlax really has in OU, is his decent ability to check opposing sun teams. Other than that, he not nearly as good in OU as he is in UU. Definitely a niche D-rank Pokemon.
I think the list is overall great, but I have a gripe about two things:
Politoed being S while TTar is A+.
Dragonite being A (along side Salamence and beneath Kyube).
First of all, TTar and Poli are similar, they both set weather flawlessly, do what they do best (Poli leans better to defensive sets and TTar with offensive ones, but they can do the other side just as well), and can never be considered a liability or what we competitive gamers call "playing with 5 pokemon" unlike Abamasnow or Ninetales. Hippo is great but we can all agree that playing him Defensively is best, offense not so much.
So, if they are equal at this point, why does the list put one above the other? I know TTar has/had two pokemon that abused his existence to the extreme (Excadrill, Landrous) while Poli has...well basically many pokemon some of which are banned and many which still roam the OU, but that shouldn't be a differentiating factor.
IMO both of them are S.
And now Dragonite, Dragonite is a class above Salamence and Kyube and I really don't understand the sarcastic remarks or gasps about how he's still top 10 (technically 5).
Dragonite has:
1) Priority (ies): Extreme Speed is basically one of it's main advantages over any other physical Dragon.
2) Movepool: Dragonite has such a wide movepool that he isn't forced to run mixed sets, he can dedicate max evs in the relevant stats to do what he wants, Fire Punch instead of Fire Blast, etc. He's also not a one trick pony where as Sally is basically the same set with different items.
3) Ability: Dragonite has most of the time a guaranteed DD while Salamence cannot for example come in late game and set up upon a non Stab Ice move.
Dragonite should be A+.
Politoed being S while TTar is A+.
Dragonite being A (along side Salamence and beneath Kyube).
First of all, TTar and Poli are similar, they both set weather flawlessly, do what they do best (Poli leans better to defensive sets and TTar with offensive ones, but they can do the other side just as well), and can never be considered a liability or what we competitive gamers call "playing with 5 pokemon" unlike Abamasnow or Ninetales. Hippo is great but we can all agree that playing him Defensively is best, offense not so much.
So, if they are equal at this point, why does the list put one above the other? I know TTar has/had two pokemon that abused his existence to the extreme (Excadrill, Landrous) while Poli has...well basically many pokemon some of which are banned and many which still roam the OU, but that shouldn't be a differentiating factor.
IMO both of them are S.
And now Dragonite, Dragonite is a class above Salamence and Kyube and I really don't understand the sarcastic remarks or gasps about how he's still top 10 (technically 5).
Dragonite has:
1) Priority (ies): Extreme Speed is basically one of it's main advantages over any other physical Dragon.
2) Movepool: Dragonite has such a wide movepool that he isn't forced to run mixed sets, he can dedicate max evs in the relevant stats to do what he wants, Fire Punch instead of Fire Blast, etc. He's also not a one trick pony where as Sally is basically the same set with different items.
3) Ability: Dragonite has most of the time a guaranteed DD while Salamence cannot for example come in late game and set up upon a non Stab Ice move.
Dragonite should be A+.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Because the only reason these pokes are anywhere near the top of the ranks anyway is BECAUSE of the weather support they provide. Rain, with its 1.5x boost, Thunder, Hurricane, and multiple abusing abilities (even not including the banned SS) offers much more support than sand which sees only one common abuser and a somewhat inconsequential 1.5x boost to spdef.
They are ranked based on their support, mainly, rather than their offensive/defensive abilities by themselves (with the sand mons an exception, obviously)
Hell, I'd much prefer to use abomasnow with no hail than ttar with no sand or politoed with no rain. Abomasnow is a good pokemon, the issue lies in hail support not being all that abusable, thus it holds a lower rank.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
That isn't to say I would be opposed to TTar moving to S (I prefer A+, especially if lando/keld are banned) but I certainly oppose moving it solely on the grounds that you provided.
TTar isn't near the top JUST because of sand. It also happens to be the best pursuit trapper in the game, which provides invaluable support to a lot of teams in the current metagame. I'd say that sand + pursuit from TTar is equal to, if not better than, the support that Politoed can provide from rain alone. I support moving TTar up to S.
T-Tar is far more useful without Sand Stream then Abomasnow is without Snow Warning. At least T-Tar can Pursuit trap, use Stealth Rock, and run a really dangerous Banded set. Abomasnow is just another Ice-type with a terrible defensive typing. That shit would easily be NU without Snow Warning.
Well you provided a good clarification which I agree with for the most part but you do understand that TTar along with the SpD boost also makes rain team unusable should he set up sand stream (Hurricane, Thunder becomes unreliable), breaks sashes and abilities such as multi scale and chips away at health. Yes it is best that we should evaluate both on the current situation of the metagame not what they were initially worth (TTar had Sand Veil till a recent date).
Mhm...I guess we can revisit this subject again once the community tests Keledo and if he's banned then Poli should be the one joining TTar not the other way around.
I also have a gripe about Ninetales, his support is excellent (Cloro, making his widespread weakness 50% less effective, Morning Sun), but I do believe he should be punished for his utter inability to defend himself and the fact his sets are just meh on any side.
Mhm...I guess we can revisit this subject again once the community tests Keledo and if he's banned then Poli should be the one joining TTar not the other way around.
I also have a gripe about Ninetales, his support is excellent (Cloro, making his widespread weakness 50% less effective, Morning Sun), but I do believe he should be punished for his utter inability to defend himself and the fact his sets are just meh on any side.
Of course T-Tar wouldn't be nearly as useful without Sand Stream, but the user who stated that Abomasnow would be more useful without Snow Warning than T-Tar with Sand Stream, is just plain silly. Maybe T-Tar wouldn't last in OU, but it sure as hell would fuck shit up in UU if it dropped. Still, T-Tar has its uses outside of sand, and it shouldn't be taken for granted.
If anything should get Dragonite into A+, it'd be its Choice Band set. At least, in my opinion. I've used both CB and DD Dragonite and found CB Dragonite to be more effective by miles. This isn't to say DD Dragonite is bad, but CB Dragonite's ability to hit hard right off the bat while, at full health, surviving almost anything that isn't a STAB Ice-type attack makes it easy to simply punch holes in your opponent's team (I like punching holes in my opponent's team). Plus, immediately powerful priority is nice for picking off weakened threats. I could support Dragonite in A+ thanks to just how good its CB set is. People keep telling me DD Dragonite is good, but it just never lived up to the hype every time I used it. I can't speak for any of Dragonite's other sets, though, since I've never used them.
All weather starters with the exception of abomasnow should be A+ Rank. Toed and tales provide support that allows many pokemon to destroy teams with ease using weather boosted moves and abilities while ttar and hippo provide sand that makes landorus and stoutland monsters and are capable of walling several threats while providing extra support in the form of stealth rock. Ttar can also use pursuit to remove threats for several sweepers. Abomasnow unfornately inst exactly a great pokemon due to its stats and typing and hail abusers are few and far between and all of them share abomasnow ice typing which doubles several weakness and prevents the player from using more than one in the same team, therefore he should remain B rank.
Edit: The reason toed should drop is because rain simply inst as threatening as before with the bans of its most powerful abusers, the fact that the best rain sweeper atm is being more used in sand with greater effectiveness and celebi and ferrothorn are everywhere to make rain sweepers lifes miserable. If anything keldeo is really the only threat that is even making rain remotely overpowered. But hey thats why he is S-Rank after all. Its really keldeo rain boosted moves that are the real problem here. I see no reason why toed should stay S-Rank anymore. Keldeo being S-Rank, which is a testament of how good he is and how he pushes rain and sand to ridiculous levels is already enough.
Edit: The reason toed should drop is because rain simply inst as threatening as before with the bans of its most powerful abusers, the fact that the best rain sweeper atm is being more used in sand with greater effectiveness and celebi and ferrothorn are everywhere to make rain sweepers lifes miserable. If anything keldeo is really the only threat that is even making rain remotely overpowered. But hey thats why he is S-Rank after all. Its really keldeo rain boosted moves that are the real problem here. I see no reason why toed should stay S-Rank anymore. Keldeo being S-Rank, which is a testament of how good he is and how he pushes rain and sand to ridiculous levels is already enough.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
It is only the best pursuit trapper because of the spdef boost.
Try tanking ANY of the latis attacks without it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 343-405 (88.86 - 104.92%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 310-366 (80.31 - 94.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 298-351 (77.2 - 90.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or celebi
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 164-194 (42.48 - 50.25%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 302-356 (78.23 - 92.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or anything really.
Tyrannitar is godawful without his sand and spdef. His typing is abhorrent. His speed makes matters even worse.
On the other hand, Gary, Abomasnow is such an underrated pokemon. It is very difficult to find an immediate answer to the mixed life orb set and it can often take out a surprising amount of pokes unexpectedly.
I'd certainly prefer aboma's typing to ttars.
If TTar loses sand, I would 100% replace it with scizor
And wut. Are you saying that TTar is a much better pokemon than aboma without weather because it would be fantastic in UU? This is incredibly surprising because you are generally at least somewhat sound logically
I can vouch for how deadly ES coming from a banded Nite can be, especially to HO teams who can't risk sending in a check lest they be 2HKO'd and be easily be bluffed early game.
@MikeDawg abomasnow mixed set is indeed very good but i think youre forgetting about tyranitar versatility. Tyranitar can run mixed sets much better than abomasnow due to its gigantic movepool and offenses, it can run effective choiced sets due to the fact that it inst rocks weak and again has much better offenses and movepool and it can also run effective lead sets to setup rocks and beat other leads. Tyranitar is a much better pokemon than snow even without weather. While the lack of sand would hurt its ability to switch into special attacks it would in no way make it a bad pokemon while abomasnow use is only justified because of weather.
Even if it is the best trapper only because of sand...it still is the best pursuit trapper. You're talking in hypotheticals, because TTar does give sand support as well as pursuit support as well. While perhaps both traits support each other, the fact of the matter is TTar does give unparalleled support to offensive teams. Even if it wouldn't be a great pursuit trapper without sandstream, that doesn't really change how it is right now. I don't know why you're talking about any of the weather 'mons without weather, it's pretty irrelevant for this thread.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Without sand, though, ttar loses most of its niches almost in its entirety. It can't really pursuit trap because now fblasts/surfs/hpfightings are 1hkoing. It can't tank special hits at all really for the same reason. Its typing becomes a completle liability, being weak to fighting, ground, water, bug (it feels like im just listing the most common offensive types...) and it can't do anything about it because it's so slow. And of course it can't supply sand.
I wouldn't use either poke without their weather, but aboma maintains every niche it has now, it simply loses weather support (but hail isn't the difference between surprising a skarm with hp fire or hitting something with wood hammer, etc.)
And what is abomasnow niche outside of setupping hail? The mixed set is not a niche since abomasnow use is only justified because of hail. There are many pokemon that can run superior mixed sets (like tyranitar himself) but they usually have better things to do while that is abomasnow best shot at surviving in the ou tier. Also abomasnow has all of those flaws you cited, slow, weak to common types, cant tank hits without heavy investment.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I'm sorry, niche wasn't the right word. I'm more discussing their non-weather purposes. Abomasnow is already accepted to be quite formidable offensively whereas ttar's uses as a pursuit trapper and the like are quite dependent on his own sand.
And while aboma does indeed have technically poor typing, it fares much better in this meta, namely due to its resistence to water (as opposed to a weakness) as well as one to ground
I dont youre getting it. Tyranitar mixed sets are a lot better than abomasnow. The reason ttar dont use them commonly is because bulkier sets and choiced sets are preferred since they take advantae of ttar huge special bulk and access to pursuit. The reason abomasnow pretty much always uses them is because the other sets are plain innefective in the current meta.
Yes all of them are innefective. Subseed/Specially defensive (which are similar) are too easy to force out and completely shut down by ferrothorn and substitute users, many of the mons its supposed to wall can screw it on the switch with status, the majority of the special attackers can beat it which seriously hurts its effectiveness (landorus, thundurus-t, tornadus, keldeo, volcarona, venusaur etc.) and its myriad of weakness severly reduces its switch opportunities. Physical attacking sets are simply mixed sets without hp fire i dont really know what are you talking about.
Calling Abomasnow "equally useful" as Mamoswine in using Ice Shard is incredibly misleading. Mamoswine is far more powerful and is also neutral to Rocks so bringing him to revenge Dragons is far easier. As far as mixed attacking goes, let's be honest, shit like Electivire is much much better than Abomasnow. He's used for Snow Warning.
No, Abomasnow is a lot better than Electrivire at being a mixed attacker, but that's not its primary role by any means. Abomasnow has a pretty decent enough move-pool to make use of, and it has a decent enough of a chance to hit every other weather starter pretty hard. Politoed can't take a Wood Hammer safely by any means, same goes with Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Ninetails can out speed, but it will always lose the weather war Turn 1. With proper prediction an Expert Belt Earthquake can do a huge amount to the standard defensive set. With proper prediction Abomasnow can also throw around Hidden Power Fires to hit steels like Scizor hard. If Abomasnow didn't have hail of course it would be a lot less useful, it would be nowhere near where it is used today, and that isn't saying much.But it does have a decent enough offensive capabilities, and sure as hell is better than Electrivire at it, who has no redeeming qualities. At least Abomasnow can revenge dragons with an Ice Shard and partially break through standard stall. But as useful as Mamoswine is in Ice Sharding? Hardly, Mamoswine is much more useful as an attacker in this aspect.
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