Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Monte Cristo]

Hm, intresting topic, I do have to agree that jirachi's non luck-based sets are still pretty solid in this metagame and it MIGHT be S, it's got a lot going for it, though garchomp is really annoying it to death with that thunder/twave immunity, SE STAB 130 base attack EQ, and 2 point higher base speed, not sure if chomp is enough to scare rachii back into A+, because SD chomp KOs through shuca I believe, regardless, while it may be amazing and stuff, we have to admit it's shit against sun, Sun unless your running non HP Fire venusaur, can deal with this thing, QD volc can beat it pretty easily, Landorus-t who is commonly seen on some sun stall teams can basically just ruin it's day even with shuca, not only that but we have to admit the whole 100 base speed tier not being what it used to be thing IS true. 100 leaves you open to a lot of shit, and that factor should be considered, though after Lando-I was banned, Rachii really thrived, but we still have strong ass fire mons like volcarona, victini and even some other shit you might see on sun and we have shit like lando-t, gliscor (haven't seen gliscor much, but we have to admit people still use it), chomp and more just scaring non shuca + Ice Punch (though bulkier/yache SD garchomps and lando can handle most of those) rachi. Honestly rachi is amazing, but weather it really deserves S rank is really debatable

I don't see much talk about moving victini anywhere, (I don't want S tini lol, now that would be blind fan-boying) so I might touch upon that seeing as it's Special Ebelt, scarf band and even specs/LO special sets thrive in thsi metagame, seriously man, vcreate/blue flare respectively in sun with great coverage like (trick for band and scarftini) bolt strike on physical and amazing moves in glaciate, tbolt, psyshock, focus blast on special, plus pre-vcreate, this shit can actually live hits just like rachi except you know, worse typing defensively and stuff, but hey, the bulk is there.

Also js, Sdef and NP celebi with batton pass are amazing in this metagame, just encouraging the use of a good mon.

 

[Halcyon.]

The way I see it, if you have more of a chance of the effect working than not (paraflinch, Charge Beam, etc.), then I don't see it as hax. How can it be hax when the odds are on your side???

 

[MikeDawg]

The way I see it, if you have more of a chance of the effect working than not (paraflinch, Charge Beam, etc.), then I don't see it as hax. How can it be hax when the odds are on your side???

Because the fact that the odds are on your side impose somewhat of a reliability on the move, or at the very least an expectation of hax.

Given that said expectation only holds true 60% of the time, it is very easy to see where rachi lacks in the consistency department.

Edit: The only thing I think holding rachi down at this point is keldeo. If that leaves I fully support for S-rank

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Jirachi is not lacking anywhere. Its the single most unpredictable pokemon in the tier, not a one trick pony para flincher. Its best sets are the ones that DONT rely on luck like the subcalm and shuca berry ones and those are the reasons it should be bumped to S-Rank. Its versatility is its real selling point, turning would be counters into easy ohkos. Shuca rachi is one of the most ridiculous sets ever, it can simply destroy everything that used to switch into it and opens ridiculous large rooms for other attackers to pick up from. CM rachi in rain is still one of the best setup sweepers around, taking advantage of its bulk and movepool, making sure that even after you find out its calm mind you still need to figure what attaks its using. Scarf jirachi is an extremely effective revenge killer, being completely customizable to fit your team needs and having access to healing wish to support. Seriously this thing is S-Rank with absolutely no doubt in my mind. It just keeps getting better and better as new sets are discovered and old sets are updated and i must say jirachi is at its prime in the current meta.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Jirachi is driving me crazy because I'm on the fence on whether it's S or not, because it has it's flaws and counters, but whatever, not like my opinions matter too much. Though it's really hard whether Jirachi is just a really good A+ or S, plus Jirachi is roadblocked by most current bulky waters, though rachi can sometimes fall to 4MSS, and jirachi in general can't have the viability of all it's sets at once, making you really pressured to bluff . Basically wrong set for the current match up = unreliablity for the match. Overall Rachii is amazing, but I think it just struggles to define itself from A+ to S. Also something to note, if the opponent isn't using a direct *UNBOOSTED* ground type to handle jirachi, then you have a waste of an item slot for the rest of the game if you're using shuca

 

[Mandeln]

Jirachi is driving me crazy because I'm on the fence on whether it's S or not, because it has it's flaws and counters, but whatever, not like my opinions matter too much. Though it's really hard whether Jirachi is just a really good A+ or S, plus Jirachi is roadblocked by most current bulky waters, though rachi can sometimes fall to 4MSS, and jirachi in general can't have the viability of all it's sets at once, making you really pressured to bluff . Basically wrong set for the current match up = unreliablity for the match. Overall Rachii is amazing, but I think it just struggles to define itself from A+ to S. Also something to note, if the opponent isn't using a direct *UNBOOSTED* ground type to handle jirachi, then you have a waste of an item slot for the rest of the game if you're using shuca

I think it fits all the S class criteria

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support

With a combination of ParaFlinch, and WishProtect he can sweep and wall all on his own.

and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").

Jirachi provides amazing support by spreading paralysis among teams, along with wish.

Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.

Everyone else has explained this perfectly

If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

I don't see any flaws, but your ideal flaw is that some sets don't work against certain teams, well I personally don't know of a single team Jirachi doesn't threaten.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I think it fits all the S class criteria
With a combination of ParaFlinch,

(Jokes aside, paraflinch is so skill-less and uncompetitive that any self-respecting individual should never consider such a thing. It's disgusting.)

 

[Mandeln]

Well someone's rage against ParaFlinch doesn't make it any less of a good strategy, or any less of a boon to Jirachi's viability.

 

[Shayhok]

The thing is, when someone is out of options, paraflinch enables them to have a chance at removing said threat, even if they don't deserve it. The set doesn't have to be designed to paraflinch, running Iron Head / Body Slam is good in general for at least being able to spread the paralysis, but then it has that additional option there. See: Jirachis Iron Heading a Heatran down when it would otherwise sweep the rest of their team.

 

[Monte Cristo]

When you're using rachi as a viable answer to heatran, one of the best counters to rachi in this meta, you know paraflinch has gone way too far, or you're using jirachi wrong.

 

[Mandeln]

The only reason you should ever not use a certain strategy is if it's bad, or doesn't work with your team. There's no morals or honour in this, it's just a video game. Stop trying to use "cheapness" or "skilllessness" as reasons to why something is bad.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

He's not saying Jirachi is his main answer. He's pointing out the fact that Jirachi can potentially get past Heatran

 

[Mandeln]

What he's been saying is that paraflinch is bad because of how cheap/uncompetitive it is, and that's not valid. Now if you said it was unreliable I'd say that's a valid complaint, but then I'd reply and tell you paraflinch isn't the main strategy, spreading paralysis and being a defensive pivot is.

 

[Shayhok]

He's not saying Jirachi is his main answer. He's pointing out the fact that Jirachi can potentially get past Heatran

Right. Your Jirachi set isn't designed to get past Heatran, but paraflinch enables the set to do more than it should be able to, even if it's only on a chance. It's still able to do all that you need it to, which is to take special hits like Draco Meteors, but is able to extend past it's original intention by forcing odds into the match.

 

[termi]

The only reason you should ever not use a certain strategy is if it's bad, or doesn't work with your team. There's no morals or honour in this, it's just a video game. Stop trying to use "cheapness" or "skilllessness" as reasons to why something is bad.

But skill-lessness does matter in a metagame that is based on competitiveness. Paraflinch rachi (or anything that usesd that "strategy" for that matter) is so extremely easy to use that even somebody who has never played competitive Pokemon before can just take its Iron Head/Body Slam/Wish/Protect set from smogon and nab some wins without any experience or skill involved. It does not encourage you to improve your skills when you can already win with a minimum amount of skill. Of course paraflinch is not foolproof at all, so you might eventually find the motivation to improve yourself anyway, but it works in two ways: skillful players can be annoyed to death by some scrub's Jirachi and if they happen to lose thanks to that they'll just wonder why the hell they're not getting what they deserve. The ladder is supposed to give you a good idea of how good someone is atm, not of how lucky he's been getting with Jirachi (heh). Stop trying to use "no morals in vidya" and "no honour in vidya" as reasons to why something is uncompetitive and shouldn't be tolerated.

tl;dr Paraflinch Jirachi isn't bad like Delibird is bad. Rather, it's just not very supportive of skill, the main factor in the metagame, and does not support improvement of said skill. When luck becomes the main factor then I'd like to refer you to the casino.

 

[Mandeln]

This thread is on Viability Ranking of OU Pokemon, nothing more. The "Skill" of a set is irrelevant, just the viability.

 

[termi]

This thread is on Viability Ranking of OU Pokemon, nothing more. The "Skill" of a set is irrelevant, just the viability.

Well can't we derail even the slightest nowadays? As long as it's limited to somewhat intelligent discussion it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

But if you want some comments on how viable rachi is: I'm fine with him in S-rank. His awesome typing, large movepool and excellent mixed stats give him huge unpredictability, especially considering how none of its sets are really outclassed by others. I still stand by my point that paraflinch is awful from a competitive point of view, but there's still plenty of sets left that make use of its other great assets and there's nothing that's a surefire counter, especially with Lando-I being gone. Plenty of reasons to throw him into S-rank regardless.

 

[magic123]

Jirachi being S rank is debatable IMO,and Latias being C- or D is just stupid.Anyways,people have said enough about that,so I'll just tell you what I suggest.

Nominating Conkeldurr for B or B+ rank

There are a few reasons why this thing should be moved up.Today,a heavily offensive metagame means that Conkeldurr can come in on appropriate Choice-locked moves and begin to destroy offense's number 1 pivot:Landorus-t with it's Life orb Sheer Force Ice Punch.That is the set I am going to mostly be talking about in this post.I do agree that the good old BW1 Bulk Up set no longer gives it a huge niche due to a huge influx of rain Hydro Pumps and Thunders and Draco Meteors and other powerful special moves,and the Sheer Force set serves as a good wall-breaker that opens up holes for it's teammates to sweep.Once premier physical walls such as Lando-t,Skarmory,Gliscor,Hippowdon and Forretress have been removed by Conkeldurr,(Forretress always loses to the Life Orb Sheer Force set given that Conk has Drain Punch or Fire Punch)it's Physical Sweeping teammates can simply come in to heavily damage the opponent's team.Other Bulky Waters such as Jellicent,Tenta and Defensive Starmie who think they can wall the normal set gets swiftly destroyed by Thunder Punch on the switch (I said on the switch because Conk has to watch out for Scald burns,Will-o-Wisp on Jellicent's case and Psyshock on Starmie's case)and allow threatening sweepers such as Keldeo to destroy the opposition.

Conkeldurr's main niche is to be a huge problem to stall and balance,due to high-powered attacks and great coverage.It does have some problems against offense,however.

While removing the pivot from offensive teams is it's main niche against it,it is easily vulnerable to high-powered special moves due to low speed and below-average special defense.Things like Latios, Keldeo, Alakazam, Thundurus-T and Volcarona can easily come in after something has died and proceed to damage it critically or KO(or even set up on it in Volcarona's case) it with their respective moves.Though it's not completely useless against offense because of Mach Punch and still usable physcial bulk,it is going to struggle a lot.

Overall,the main reason I suggest that Conkeldurr should be moved up is because it gives balance (which is slowly becoming more common) a lot of problems.The second niche is that it destroys many common walls,so top-tier sweepers that are stopped by said walls can finally sweep,which is always game-changing.
If you guys tell me otherwise and give constructive reasons for it (or even suggest that it should be dropped),I am completely fine with that :).

 

[termi]

Today,a heavily offensive metagame means that Conkeldurr can come in on appropriate Choice-locked moves

Ehm, on what moves exactly can Conkelduur switch in? With what resistances? The only common resisted, choice-locked moves Conkeldurr can take advantage of are Terrakion's Stone Edge and Bandtar's Crunch/Pursuit. Of course his solid physical bulk means that he can switch into weaker attacks that aren't resisted, but these usually aren't choice-locked to begin with. If anything, he can switch in on walls that can't really harm him. I'm not gonna say he's bad simply because I don't use him, but don't just assume he can switch in on attacks willy-nilly. Also, while it gices stall problems, pretty much everything can give stall problems nowadays. You said it yourself: The metagame is extremely offensive so the circumstances simply aren't ideal for a bulky, slow attacker.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Hey- there are several Pokemon that are in the top 100 in usage, and aren't mentioned here. Are any of these gonna be ranked?

| 60 | Machamp | 2.03021% | 58236 | 2.385% | 48408 | 2.477% |
| 62 | Umbreon | 1.91668% | 74814 | 3.064% | 56888 | 2.911% |
| 63 | Arcanine | 1.90749% | 73738 | 3.020% | 60134 | 3.077% |
| 68 | Swampert | 1.64054% | 64837 | 2.656% | 54601 | 2.794% |
| 76 | Charizard | 1.47161% | 71979 | 2.948% | 57452 | 2.940% |
| 82 | Blastoise | 1.29582% | 52897 | 2.167% | 42864 | 2.193% |
| 84 | Electivire | 1.29220% | 54990 | 2.252% | 44142 | 2.259% |
| 88 | Milotic | 1.13439% | 41618 | 1.705% | 33141 | 1.696% |
| 89 | Sigilyph | 1.12214% | 31198 | 1.278% | 23456 | 1.200% |
| 92 | Nidoking | 1.05114% | 31866 | 1.305% | 25398 | 1.300% |
| 97 | Ambipom | 0.98092% | 31551 | 1.292% | 27037 | 1.383% |
| 98 | Gallade | 0.97108% | 40574 | 1.662% | 32822 | 1.679% |

Of these Ambipom, Electivire, Charizard and Swampert are definite and obvious D-ranks.

I can see Nidoking being C-rank, as it has great coverage + Sheer Force, and has a niche a good Baton Pass recipient.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

^^This pretty much explains Nidoking, I guess.

Sigilyph was decent in early BW as a bulky booster with Cosmic Power/Stored Power/Psycho Shift + Flame Orb, but its bulk just isn't enough right now to tank all these super powerful attacks. D rank, probably.

Machamp is probably in the same camp - sure, STAB DynamicPunch coming from 130 base attack is great and all, but this isn't DPP anymore. 90/80/85 bulk is subpar at best for such a slow Pokemon. The metagame has shifted away from bulky attackers to faster, harder-hitting attackers and now Machamp is plain outclassed. D-rank, or C- at best.

I haven't used any of the rest (Umbreon/Arcanine/Blastoise/Milotic/Gallade), nor saw them in use, so I'd rather not comment about them.

 

[Schpoonman]

Pokemon getting ranked is dependent on their viability and not their usage. Nidoking is the only one of these that really merits being ranked.

 

[Ryuuki]

I'm going to agree with moving up Jirachi from A+ to S rank. It's unpredicable and can use so many ways to beat its counters depening on what counter threatens it most on this specific team. Not much to add here as the most have been said already.

So next to Conkeldurr. I think this guy deserves some more love on the ladder but I think it stand pritty good where he's right now. He compites with both Breloom and Terrakion for a spot but he fits more balanced teams more then offensive teams. But once he's in there are few things that dares switch in on him without getting ripped in two peaces so he's a real beast with the right support but not an every team. I can agree with B rank for him but not so much higher.

@Plopper: I don't think they do really need to be ranked at all. They are clear D-rankers and outclassed by other pokemons in this tier or just have a really small niche and not much to do in OU at all. I haven't had any problems with those pokemons on a serious team in a long time so I don't see any reason to add them except for saying that there's better around.

I can agree with Lord of Bays on ranking Nidoking but not the other ones.

 

[magic123]

Ehm, on what moves exactly can Conkelduur switch in? With what resistances? The only common resisted, choice-locked moves Conkeldurr can take advantage of are Terrakion's Stone Edge and Bandtar's Crunch/Pursuit. Of course his solid physical bulk means that he can switch into weaker attacks that aren't resisted, but these usually aren't choice-locked to begin with. If anything, he can switch in on walls that can't really harm him. I'm not gonna say he's bad simply because I don't use him, but don't just assume he can switch in on attacks willy-nilly. Also, while it gices stall problems, pretty much everything can give stall problems nowadays. You said it yourself: The metagame is extremely offensive so the circumstances simply aren't ideal for a bulky, slow attacker.

I didn't phrase that properly.When I said "come in on appropriate choiced moves" I meant come in after said choiced move has KOed one of Conk's teammates and come in such that it can force the choicer out.For example,Conk can come in on a choice-locked Terrakion in Close Combat and threaten to KO it with Drain Punch while simultaneously healing off CC damage.In fact,I should not have even said "choice-locked moves" because Conkeldurr's job is to always come in after something has been KOed.Thats my fault because I didn't say that properly.

But other than the second sentence,I didn't say anything about Conkeldurr switching in to attacks.It should be common knowledge that Conk shouldn't be trying to take hits that it can't heal off with Drain Punch or that KO it.Conk can only come in after one of it's teammates went down or after one of it's teammates used Volt Switch,U-turn or Baton Pass against a Pokemon faster than it.I never said Conk can come in willy-nilly.

The metagame is extremely offensive so the circumstances simply aren't ideal for a bulky, slow attacker.

I do understand that you have never used Conk before,but what you are saying is due to the current metagame being so fast and offensive,Conk cannot function without a good deal of support.But this is....well...half-true.This depends on what you want Conkeldurr to do.If Conkeldurr "functioning" means doing heavy damage to the opposing team,then yes,it does need a lot of support.But that is not Conkeldurr's job.It's job is to come in safely and destroy the opponent's wall before getting revengekilled allowing the team's sweeper to sweep.That is all it can do against offense.Against stall and balance it can do a lot more.

Note that due to these limitations, I don't suggest Conk becomes A rank.A B rank or maybe a B+ is more appropriate,but not B- in my opinion.

Also, while it gives stall problems, pretty much everything can give stall problems nowadays.

XD.I really don't know how to begin with this and I don't feel like explaining why that logic is wrong now.I hope someone else does.

 

[Kingler]

C&C work:

Gen 5:
Finished: (OU) (RU)(RU)(NU) (Doubles)
In progress:

 

[Gary]

Conkeldurr is an amazing attacker and works amazingly in trick room. That being said, TR is uncommon and i think conk should be C rank though I'd love a B rank conk

Conkeldurr isn't B-Rank because it's good on Trick Room teams. Conkeldurr is good in this metagame because of its ability to become a successful bulky attacker that can tear through the opponent's defensive core with ease, thanks to its high attack and outstanding coverage. The recently popular Sheer Force Life Orb All Out Attacker set has carved a larger niche for it in OU then just a bulky sweeper. It's heavily damaged by special attacks and outsped by a majority of the tier, but its physical bulk and immense coverage makes it one of the most terrifying all out attackers in OU. It's definitely not C-rank. I honestly think its B Rank to be honest. When used correctly, it can be a pain to play around, especially if you're using offensive teams that don't really have a reliable switch-in to any of its moves. Stall teams have the potential of being murdered as well. I know from experience that any team lacking a reliable check to this thing is in big trouble. It can beat a lot of Psychic-types 1v1 that use Psyshock over Psychic like Offensive Starmie outside of rain, Scarf Latios, and Sash Alakazam. They all fail to OHKO with Psyshock, and Conkeldurr can either KO them back next turn, or in Alakazam's case, die to a Mach Punch next turn.