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Serious The Politics Thread

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The shit that happened to Sonya is horrifying and if i were to say everything that the cop that killed her deserved i would be banned from the forums permanently. This will also be the most haunting and scary part to watch from a kamala presidency that isn't gaza: she loves the pigs and cop city and I won't be surprised if police brutality has another jump in statistics.

There may be justice done to Sonyas name, but remember many are forgotten and erased instead.
 

the level of fury this clip gives me. netanyahu getting a hero's welcome. these monsters must be stopped by any means necessary
I'm not laughing at you (referring to my Haha react), I'm laughing at this tweet because the U.S. is the last country that should be talking about international law and order right now. This country looks and feels like such a joke on the international stage right now that I'd rather have the Smogon moderator team in charge of America than some of these people. And before anyone asks, that is both a compliment to the moderators and an insult to the government at the same time.
 
Man, is politics in the US really just the left and right bashing each other? both sides have valid arguments but both sides attempt to make the other one look delusional and dumb, idk... idk what is facts and what are opinions anymore these days...
tho I could agree that religion shouldn't be used to justify your actions and arguments.
 
Man, is politics in the US really just the left and right bashing each other? both sides have valid arguments but both sides attempt to make the other one look delusional and dumb, idk... idk what is facts and what are opinions anymore these days...
tho I could agree that religion shouldn't be used to justify your actions and arguments.

Well, no, both sides do not have valid arguments. But yes, this is how politics has always been. Cause as much divisiveness among the people so that they focus on each other rather than the goons running the country.
 
Man, is politics in the US really just the left and right bashing each other? both sides have valid arguments but both sides attempt to make the other one look delusional and dumb, idk... idk what is facts and what are opinions anymore these days...
tho I could agree that religion shouldn't be used to justify your actions and arguments.

Both sides do not have valid arguments. The Republican candidate is a twice impeached, civilly liable rapist with 34 felonies that tried to overthrow the 2020 election and proclaimed he plans to become a dictator. Running on a platform Project 2025 that wants to deconstruct the US constitution, restrict civil rights and reproductive freedom, and destroy public schools, social security, Medicare, unions and the environment. VP Harris is not “equivalent/equally bad” to that.
 
Both sides do not have valid arguments. The Republican candidate is a twice impeached, civilly liable rapist with 34 felonies that tried to overthrow the 2020 election and proclaimed he plans to become a dictator. Running on a platform Project 2025 that wants to deconstruct the US constitution, restrict civil rights and reproductive freedom, and destroy public schools, social security, Medicare, unions and the environment. VP Harris is not “equivalent/equally bad” to that.
^This

This is why in any argument that’s supposed to be at all intellectual or engaging— those debates pretty much only occur within different factions of the Democrats/Left in the U.S., much as seen in this thread actually…

Traditionally Leftists vs Centrists but as seen in the thread lately the factions being drawn from individual strategic calculations > ideology and odd bed-fellows all around.

Like watch any click-bate scream-fest panel arranged by Piers Morgan and you’ll find it would have been a million times better if you just left the Republicans off it and had two people from different factions of the Democrats/Left screaming at each other. At least it would be substantive.

In 2024 all arguments with the right just boil down to some form of “bigotry bad.”
 
Man, is politics in the US really just the left and right bashing each other? both sides have valid arguments but both sides attempt to make the other one look delusional and dumb, idk... idk what is facts and what are opinions anymore these days...
tho I could agree that religion shouldn't be used to justify your actions and arguments.
The problem is there is a lack of absolute truth. Absolute truth is something both sides must agree upon and lay their other different beliefs around.

Let me give an example. Let’s say there are two groups of people thinking about how to deal with Global Warming. Group 1 has a solution. Group 2 has a solution. The two cannot agree with the best way to deal with Global Warming, although both of them agree it is a problem. They can agree both sides have some good points, although they still believe their own is superior. The absolute truth here is Global Warming. But let’s say Group 2 doesn’t even believe Global Warming exists. Group 1 will find everything Group 2 says as an invalid point, because Group 2 can’t accept the basic truth of Global Warming. Group 2 will find everything Group 1 says as invalid and useless, because Group 1 is making a problem out of something that does

Let’s say you and a friend are discussing how long it would take to fly around the world back to where you both are standing. Then imagine someone coming up to you two and saying “your discussion is useless because the world is in fact flat.” You wouldn’t even take what the person says next seriously because they disagreed with something you believe to be a undisputed fact. You’d probably even laugh and mock them.

The Democrats and Republicans have totally different versions of what is absolutely true. And if you can’t agree that AT LEAST one thing that is absolutely true, can’t have a reasonable discussion about it. This is made worse when what you believe is absolutely true is absolutely false to the other side. And finally , this is made even worse if both sides automatically default to thinking the worst of eachother. Let’s think about illegal immigration for a moment. The Republicans think this is an absolutely huge problem. Enough of a problem to start building a literal wall between Mexico and the U.S. The majority of Democrats on the other hand don’t even think illegal immigration is much of an issue. Why would the Democrats take anything the Republicans say seriously if they are trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist? On the other hand, why would the Republicans take anything the Democrats say seriously if they can’t see what is an obvious problem? One thing that causes the most stir is that both sides can’t agree on anything morally, which is quite a disaster as our beliefs on morality effects the core of our other beliefs.

Basically, both sides can’t agree on an absolute truth, which mean they will never see the other side’s arguments as valid. In fact, what one side sees as absolutely true the other side sees as absolutely wrong, which means anything one side does is practically destroying everything the other side believes in. On top of that, both sides automatically think the worst of eachother, meaning even the slightest thing one side does will immediately make the other side believe the world is about to end.

Religion is someone’s beliefs. And everyone uses their beliefs to justify their actions. It’s more a question of should you use your beliefs to justify your actions, which, everyone does. Anyways, hope this helped in the least biased way possible.
 
The problem is there is a lack of absolute truth. Absolute truth is something both sides must agree upon and lay their other different beliefs around.

Let me give an example. Let’s say there are two groups of people thinking about how to deal with Global Warming. Group 1 has a solution. Group 2 has a solution. The two cannot agree with the best way to deal with Global Warming, although both of them agree it is a problem. They can agree both sides have some good points, although they still believe their own is superior. The absolute truth here is Global Warming. But let’s say Group 2 doesn’t even believe Global Warming exists. Group 1 will find everything Group 2 says as an invalid point, because Group 2 can’t accept the basic truth of Global Warming. Group 2 will find everything Group 1 says as invalid and useless, because Group 1 is making a problem out of something that does

Let’s say you and a friend are discussing how long it would take to fly around the world back to where you both are standing. Then imagine someone coming up to you two and saying “your discussion is useless because the world is in fact flat.” You wouldn’t even take what the person says next seriously because they disagreed with something you believe to be a undisputed fact. You’d probably even laugh and mock them.

The Democrats and Republicans have totally different versions of what is absolutely true. And if you can’t agree that AT LEAST one thing that is absolutely true, can’t have a reasonable discussion about it. This is made worse when what you believe is absolutely true is absolutely false to the other side. And finally , this is made even worse if both sides automatically default to thinking the worst of eachother. Let’s think about illegal immigration for a moment. The Republicans think this is an absolutely huge problem. Enough of a problem to start building a literal wall between Mexico and the U.S. The majority of Democrats on the other hand don’t even think illegal immigration is much of an issue. Why would the Democrats take anything the Republicans say seriously if they are trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist? On the other hand, why would the Republicans take anything the Democrats say seriously if they can’t see what is an obvious problem? One thing that causes the most stir is that both sides can’t agree on anything morally, which is quite a disaster as our beliefs on morality effects the core of our other beliefs.

Basically, both sides can’t agree on an absolute truth, which mean they will never see the other side’s arguments as valid. In fact, what one side sees as absolutely true the other side sees as absolutely wrong, which means anything one side does is practically destroying everything the other side believes in. On top of that, both sides automatically think the worst of eachother, meaning even the slightest thing one side does will immediately make the other side believe the world is about to end.

Beliefs and opinions can be wrong/false. There is not equal justification for all beliefs. For example, the first debate question on June 27 should have been:

“Who won the 2020 election?”

CNN is trash for not asking this. Believe it or not, most Republicans believe convicted felon Trump won the 2020 election. It is a factually incorrect belief. To argue people are entitled to hold such belief contrary to an objective fact is what is currently harming democracy.
 
The problem is there is a lack of absolute truth. Absolute truth is something both sides must agree upon and lay their other different beliefs around.

Let me give an example. Let’s say there are two groups of people thinking about how to deal with Global Warming. Group 1 has a solution. Group 2 has a solution. The two cannot agree with the best way to deal with Global Warming, although both of them agree it is a problem. They can agree both sides have some good points, although they still believe their own is superior. The absolute truth here is Global Warming. But let’s say Group 2 doesn’t even believe Global Warming exists. Group 1 will find everything Group 2 says as an invalid point, because Group 2 can’t accept the basic truth of Global Warming. Group 2 will find everything Group 1 says as invalid and useless, because Group 1 is making a problem out of something that does

Let’s say you and a friend are discussing how long it would take to fly around the world back to where you both are standing. Then imagine someone coming up to you two and saying “your discussion is useless because the world is in fact flat.” You wouldn’t even take what the person says next seriously because they disagreed with something you believe to be a undisputed fact. You’d probably even laugh and mock them.

The Democrats and Republicans have totally different versions of what is absolutely true. And if you can’t agree that AT LEAST one thing that is absolutely true, can’t have a reasonable discussion about it. This is made worse when what you believe is absolutely true is absolutely false to the other side. And finally , this is made even worse if both sides automatically default to thinking the worst of eachother. Let’s think about illegal immigration for a moment. The Republicans think this is an absolutely huge problem. Enough of a problem to start building a literal wall between Mexico and the U.S. The majority of Democrats on the other hand don’t even think illegal immigration is much of an issue. Why would the Democrats take anything the Republicans say seriously if they are trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist? On the other hand, why would the Republicans take anything the Democrats say seriously if they can’t see what is an obvious problem? One thing that causes the most stir is that both sides can’t agree on anything morally, which is quite a disaster as our beliefs on morality effects the core of our other beliefs.

Basically, both sides can’t agree on an absolute truth, which mean they will never see the other side’s arguments as valid. In fact, what one side sees as absolutely true the other side sees as absolutely wrong, which means anything one side does is practically destroying everything the other side believes in. On top of that, both sides automatically think the worst of eachother, meaning even the slightest thing one side does will immediately make the other side believe the world is about to end.

Religion is someone’s beliefs. And everyone uses their beliefs to justify their actions. It’s more a question of should you use your beliefs to justify your actions, which, everyone does. Anyways, hope this helped in the least biased way possible.

the biden administration's DHS literally holds migrant children in concentration camps.

idk that id say either party considers "illegal immigration" a 'problem' tho, most politicians dont care much abt substantive issues they care about their megadonors and their next election. the repub party is very happy to use fearmongering abt migrants as a propaganda point, democrat politicians seem to view it as an 'unfavorable issue' for them so they might see it as a 'problem' in that sense. but the biden administration made no significant policy changes to the DHS/ICE policies from the trump admin, including fighting in court to try to preserve its title 42 power to expel asylum seekers en masse without evaluating asylum or TPS criteria, which is ofc in violation of the un declaration of human rights article 14, which the US is a signatory of not that the US has ever actually adhered to that document. (ofc the rhetoric is very different compared to from the trump admin)
 

Both sides not agreeing on something is kind of a fundamental presupposition for an argument to take place at all. If everyone agreed on everything, these kinds of discussions wouldn't exist. I'm genuinely not sure what your point is supposed to be beyond "Dems and Reps don't agree".

Also as stated before, not all arguments are equal. If Democrats say climate change is real and provide mountains of evidence and thousands of scientific studies to that conclusion and Republicans say climate change is fake or not a problem and lie their asses off and manipulate data to try (and usually still fail) to reach that conclusion, these are not equally valid arguments and this isn't a "both sides" issue. The problem is cutting through the web of lies that all reinforce each other. The evidence for climate change can be discarded because it's all a conspiracy by the Deep State (or jews) to ban cars and restrict American freedom so we can enact Stalinist-style communism or something, and obviously all the agencies that have produced studies supporting anthropogenic climate change have been bought out by this shadowy entity so we can't trust them either. Now we've got to debunk that bullshit, and it doesn't really matter if we do because obviously we're bought out by Deep State too, right? There's no situation where an ideologically committed conservative can admit they're wrong, and if they do, they usually end up moving to the left. That's politics.

The notion of good ideas spreading meritocratically through debate is bullshit. The better idea only wins if both sides play fair and act in good faith, and not a single person on this planet from the most radical left communist to the farthest right neo-nazi thinks that accurately describes politics.
 
^This

This is why in any argument that’s supposed to be at all intellectual or engaging— those debates pretty much only occur within different factions of the Democrats/Left in the U.S., much as seen in this thread actually…

Traditionally Leftists vs Centrists but as seen in the thread lately the factions being drawn from individual strategic calculations > ideology and odd bed-fellows all around.

Like watch any click-bate scream-fest panel arranged by Piers Morgan and you’ll find it would have been a million times better if you just left the Republicans off it and had two people from different factions of the Democrats/Left screaming at each other. At least it would be substantive.

In 2024 all arguments with the right just boil down to some form of “bigotry bad.”

Like I'm sure that Right-Leaning people will laugh at this take, but if you are a right-leaning person deserving to argue within politics of a civil society in the US, you should be a conservative Democrat at this point.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, let's take a look at what the intra-party debates are about...

Debates Within the Democrats:

Owner Rights vs. Labor Rights (aka Capitalism vs. Socialism)
Steward Global Hegemony vs. Steward Global Development/Peace (Aka War vs. Peace)
Energy Interests vs. Environmentalism (aka how much should we do to save the future for human life on Earth? How can we do it while trying to maintain standards of living?)
For-Profit Healthcare vs. Healthcare as a Right
Business Friendly Taxes vs. Progressive Taxes
De-regulation vs. Consumer & Worker Protections
Maintain Representative Republic vs. Increase mechanisms of Direct Democracy
Maintain legal bribery & insider trading vs. Public Finance Reform/anti-corruption enforcement
Support Monopoly vs. Inforce Antitrust and support market competition
Expand Punitive Immigration Policy vs. More robust roads to citizenship/residency rights

All of the great debates-- the serious issues that should be at the center of debate in civil society are found within factions of the Democrats. Meanwhile, these are all settled issues in the modern GOP, having already uniformly adopted the worst possible positions.

So the debates left within the Republican party are all heinous, unserious, or just ridiculous.

Debates Within the (Modern) Republicans:
Fascism NOW!! vs. Capitulate to Fascism later
Please just say DEI (for now) vs. Fuck no just say Ni**er!
Expand Global Empire vs. We Already Have Enough Empire (aka conquer other fascists vs. admire other fascists)
Zionism vs. Nazism (aka do we include Israeli supremacy in American Supremacy, yes or no? aka fascists vs. nazis)
Slowly destroy the Constitution while kissing it vs. Burn it RIGHT NOW
Oligarchy vs. Monarchy
Eugenics good vs. Evolution Does not Exist
Round Earth vs. Flat Earth
Smuggle Vaccines for my family first and act like Liberals forced me vs. NO VACCINES EVER
etc.
etc.

You get the idea. The conservatives aren't even looking to argue anymore like they used to a few years back during their "debate me bro" phase, because even they know there's no point to try to have good faith argument.

Any genuine argument you could prop up between a centrist Democrat and anyone left in the GOP-- there's just no topic where it's not obvious who's more correct if you care about any sort of civil society.


edit: Also, pay attention to how the conservatives in the thread primarily just lol emoji remark without response-- it's the same thing I mentioned in this post. They might very well win... they are winning frankly... but try to actually hash out the ideas and they have NOTHING to say that doesn't sound absolutely deplorable.
 
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... Project 2025 is scary....
Pornography and the idea that transgender people exist are not related
The Department of Education is not "injecting racist, anti-American propaganda" in schools
Abortion should not be decided by 9 people, three of which were nominated by the same far-right president
Abortion should also be a protected right but that's for another time
Climate Change is real
We need fucking Medicaid and Medicate bitches that's all some people can get I'm pretty sure

(The point on abortion is slightly inaccurate as they aren't the ones actually banning it, they just no longer made it protected... What we need is actual legislation protecting abortion rights but will that ever happen?)
 
Pornography and the idea that transgender people exist are not related
They are if you believe that being transgender is inherently sexual. Many on the right cannot or will not conceive of queerness as anything other than a fetish, and understanding this is key to understanding much of their rhetoric on the subject. This is also why, for example, queer people existing around children are always accused of being pedophiles by the right, without fail.
 
They are if you believe that being transgender is inherently sexual. Many on the right cannot or will not conceive of queerness as anything other than a fetish, and understanding this is key to understanding much of their rhetoric on the subject. This is also why, for example, queer people existing around children are always accused of being pedophiles by the right, without fail.
The funny thing is, gender identity and sexuality aren't even the same thing
And the stereotype of "all transgender people are predators" is very wrong and harmful
This also aligns with the incorrect and harmful stereotype of "drag queens are trans", most are not transgender to begin with, and thoughts like these just lead to sentiment against drag performers (who are literally just entertainers) and trans people
 
Anchor9, I do not agree with your assessment of the situation. Among other issues, you are assuming that every argument being made is being made in good faith. They are not.

For your example on Global Warming: Their is a major profit incentive to simply ignore the problem. Car companies unload massive amounts of cash into Washington. In exchange, right wing politicians and the media ecosystem they have developed loudly cry that it's a hoax, or say the vague changes are too much. Car companies get what they want, and spend less money making their product. It does not matter what evidence comes on Global Warming, there is profit incentive for the right to act as if it is an issue, and reject it. Positions against global warming as they stand in US politics are not being preached in good faith. The wind is scary.

For your example on border patrol: The US has an incredibly cruel stance on southern border patrol that has incarcerated thousands of children and families seeking asylum into the US. This has stayed mostly the same between the Trump and Biden administrations. It is bipartisan cruelty, and exists mostly now as the democrats have tried to appeal to republicans on their desired terms for some act of compromise. The exact same claims that the southern border needs protection that have rung out since before you and I were born are still being thundered by the right wing. Despite everything, despite all that has been done, despite the death caused by Joe Arpaio and border vigilantes, despite numerous demonstrations that a proposed wall is effortless to get around and wastes money, the republicans / wider right claim not enough is being done. This has been the case since even before the 1950s when Operation [Mexican Slur] deported huge amounts of legal Americans because they "looked" illegal. The driving force behind all of this is not any sincere worries about the border. It is a very long and storied history of racist intolerance to anyone who doesn't look white.

The right in the United States repeatedly uses bad faith arguments to turn facts into ongoing issues. This can be seen in some previous hot-button issues that have since lost steam and mostly died in the united states, and have always looked ridiculous outside of it. The matter of evolution vs creationism got major airtime under the disguise of "teach the issue" in the mid 2000s. Teaching the issue as a debate implicitly gave both sides of the position value, despite one being routed in science and the other being a theological idea not widely held in many Christian circles, and not necessarily at all in competition with evolution. The desired outcome, allowing creationism and letting legislators put their religion as on par with science in schools, has unfortunately come to pass in a few states.

The right does not care about what is the truth, or in consistently maintaining their espoused beliefs. They are making these arguments in bad faith, and are only interested in whatever can mask their actual beliefs. Any rightwing leader who praises state's rights does not give a shit about the actual rights of a state. It is a well documented dogwhistle that has survived since the southern strategy let Republicans sweep up disgruntled racists in the wake of the civil rights act into their herd. It's a hydra that grows a new head every few years, sometimes with concepts like Obama's birth certificate, sometimes with words like DEI now or CRT two years ago. If you're not listening, it can be easy to mistake it as genuine argument, but the family tree is very clear.

It is very tempting to excuse Dem vs Republican issues as "These two sides are in fundamental disagreement and neither's gonna understand the other". I've seen a lot of good natured people do this over the course of my life. It has problems. It's lazy. You're not engaging with the content of what they're saying. This stance is very good at letting these people acting in bad faith to turn a settled matter with an outcome they dislike into something of debate. Several debates just do not have two valid positions; they are hoping for raw unfamiliarity with the people / positions driving the argument to give it weight and draw something into question. They want you to be lazy enough to only look at the water, not stick a foot in there and see where all that water's coming from. This revisionism is the roots of many of our most vile problems, like vaccine denialism or Holocaust denial. It's the favorite option in the right wing playbook. Be very cautious dismissing things this way, because the worst people love to prey upon it.

If you want to inoculate yourself against this sort of thing, I say educate yourself when they come around and learn what other pies the participants have their hands in. Look at recent election denialism claims, for example. The dominion lawsuits show that the initial claims were patently false and mixed in with insane conspiracy theories, but folks like Tucker and the rest of the right ran with it anyway for money, even with staff complaining it was obviously false. Maybe look at any future opinions Tucker has on things, and that he might be masking monstrous concepts like the great replacement theory with very thin masks. Maybe look into that too and realize how disgusting a history it has, and dismiss people arguing in that space as operating in bad faith. Don't settle on civil war litigation just being an unsolved issue of "oh, was it states rights or slavery?" as it was taught to me as a child. Go look up the cornerstone address and see with your own eyes the vice president of the confederacy declaring that races are fundamentally not equal. Don't let a politician rope you into honoring these people. This whole world of hateful telephone game can seem impenetrable at first, but in the long run, you learn a roster of shitheads who are taking advantage of unfamiliarity with their arguments made in bad faith for disgusting profit.

This post got out of control, sorry. I've done my best to make it coherent. Nothing against the poster, but I felt compelled. The state of us politics is not the left and right bashing each other. It is a right transparently acting in bad faith with another party that doesn't really care at all because it's still getting paid.

Also, as an aside, It's also just not true that a lot of democrat and republican legislation is in opposition. They repeatedly, enthusiastically pour embarrassing amounts into military budgets. Ultimately they very much agree on matters of US imperialism, to all of our detriment.
 
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So yeah, we can summarize all of these posts real simply:

Good faith debate and debate over substantive truths or meaningful civil policy is possible within the Left/Center divide that exists entirely with the Democrats or left of the Democrats.

There is no good faith or truth at all, no moral ground to stand on with anyone remaining in the GOP or right of the GOP.

And there's no need to pretend otherwise.
 
So yeah, we can summarize all of these posts real simply:

Good faith debate and debate over substantive truths or meaningful civil policy is possible within the Left/Center divide that exists entirely with the Democrats or left of the Democrats.

There is no good faith or truth at all, no moral ground to stand on with anyone remaining in the GOP or right of the GOP.

And there's no need to pretend otherwise.

Ngl this post kind of reaffirms the position of the post you’re responding to with respect to each side not really interested in engaging with the other.

Generally agree with TheMantykes post though.
 
Ngl this post kind of reaffirms the position of the post you’re responding to with respect to each side not really interested in engaging with the other.

Generally agree with TheMantykes post though.

Because, yes I AM affirming with some minute corrections to the preposition:

“Man, is politics in the US really just the [Group A: left+center left+center+center right] vs [Group B: fascists+nazis] bashing each other?”

Yes, and that is as it should be when one side’s positions are just evil, and they even lay them out starkly in detail in a public 900 page fascist manifesto. We are beyond having words.

IMG_1568.jpeg

TLDR of modern both-sidesism
 
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Yes, and that is as it should be when one side’s positions are just evil, and they even lay them out starkly in detail in a public 900 page manifesto. We are beyond having words
To be fair, I think some members of the Republican side are actually capable of discussing the more reasonable parts of their agenda (yes, these exist, it's just not many...like not many reasonable parts at all idt) though this is really limited to the more moderate Republicans
However, in many cases, 900 page manifestos are the product of that side from what I've seen

This is the byproduct of extreme political polarization, especially in the GOP
 
My emphasis is on people STILL with the GOP.

My best friend from College is a Conservative, former Republican but now independent. We talk politics, still have good faith policy based discussions. Here’s what that looks like:

Me: “Well, I will say Biden’s the best Progressive policy President of my lifetime— ending the drone war and supporting Unions. Etc.”

Him: “Hmm… I guess. I hold Biden is the best Conservative President of my lifetime— calling Xi and Putin dictators to their face, saying he will go to war to defend Taiwan outright, bringing chip manufacturing home to protect National sovereignty, and offering up the best good faith immigration execution and policy proposals.”

Me: “I can see that. Fuck Trump?”

Him: “FUCK Trump.”

The time for talk is done— as far right as we’ve shifted we’re at the point where people just need to pick a side.
 
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