Seconded. I remember way back in the Garchomp/Excadrill days when having Volt Switch on a Rotom-W was like a novel thing: some had it and some didn't. Then VoltTurn became a huge, trendy thing and every single Rotom-W carried it. Now, VoltTurn has died down a lot (though idk why; it's as effective as ever), but what's cool to see is that all Rotom-W's still carry Volt Turn, like a sort of relic from a bygone era. Rotom-W definitely had its heyday and is still great as ever; certainly deserves a spot.
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The Top 10 Titans of the 5th Gen OU Metagame
- Thread starter Sork
- Start date
I think Blaziken easily belongs in the Top 10. It embodies what BW turned the metagame into, a whirlwind of power and speed. Between Speed Boost, killer offensive stats, high base power moves, and a great typing, it single-handedly lifted Drought to strength comparable to Drizzle and Sand in its day. Preparing for it meant dragging up Slowbro from the depths of UU, although even that wasn't a sure thing thanks to its mixed set.
Not only that, but it opened teams up to then-borderline suspects such as Latios, making a variety of checks and counters a liability by setting up on them (Ferrothorn, for example). It's own jump from UU to Ubers should be evidence enough of its power, and I feel it deserves mention above others because it managed to take full advantage of weather, BW's trademark.
That's the thing though, we can sit here and theorycraft for days, but the fact is, Genesect never did have it's "full effect" on the metagame. In an alternate Universe, Genesect makes Flareon OU and Magnezone a top 5 Pokemon. But because he got banned before it could turn the metagame upside down, it never really "fulfilled it's potential". I agree that Genesect was THE metagame for a while, but it's no Politoed.
What if politoed was instabanned in the beginning of BW1? Would we consider it as dominating? Wheras genesect was slowly rising from the moment it came in, politoed and weather was always on a constant level. Dominant, sure, but always constant. I think that it was done away with before it truly reached maximum potential, but for everything it did while it was here it did on an outrageous scale.
Let's make this easier by defining the absolute certainties:
The two defining weathers of the entire Gen need their (main) starters:
Politoed
Tyranitar
His consistent usage speaks for itself:
Scizor
Another constant from day one:
Ferrothorn
I don't think anyone would argue against these four. From there, it's highly debatable IMO and it all really depends on how great an importance you place on time spent in the tier or whether , but no matter how you slice it I think the remaining candidates are:
Dragonite
Rotom-W
Excadrill
Ninetales
Deoxys-S
Terrakion
Genesect
Garchomp
Blaziken
Heatran
That's all I can think of anyway. As it stands I personally would choose the top 6 of these (Dragonite-Terrakion) to round out the list, though it's so hard for me to pick among these.
The two defining weathers of the entire Gen need their (main) starters:
Politoed
Tyranitar
His consistent usage speaks for itself:
Scizor
Another constant from day one:
Ferrothorn
I don't think anyone would argue against these four. From there, it's highly debatable IMO and it all really depends on how great an importance you place on time spent in the tier or whether , but no matter how you slice it I think the remaining candidates are:
Dragonite
Rotom-W
Excadrill
Ninetales
Deoxys-S
Terrakion
Genesect
Garchomp
Blaziken
Heatran
That's all I can think of anyway. As it stands I personally would choose the top 6 of these (Dragonite-Terrakion) to round out the list, though it's so hard for me to pick among these.
Well, the obvious choice here is Politoed. Rain was very dominant is n BW1 (prior to Drizzle+SS ban) and also during BW2. A lot of things we've banned were related to rain (Drizzle+SS, Torn-T, to some extent Thundurus; Keldeo was suspected as well), and Toed was meta-game defining in this generation.
Another Pokemon which has almost always been in the #10 most used Pokemon is Ferrothorn. Ferro was (and is) the only true counter to Kingdra and Starmie, and checks Lati@s, dragons locked into Outrage. It's attack is also decent and both its moves are powerful, plus it can set up both SR and Spikes and heal itself with Leech Seed.
Tyranitar was also a pretty dominant Pokemon this gen. Despite the plethora of Fighting type Pokemon in OU, TTar still maintained high usage. In early BW1, TTar provided sand, abused by Exca, 'Chomp and Landorus. While Exca's ban reduced its utility just a bit, it could still be partnered with Fighting types (like Terrakion, Breloom and most recently Keldeo) to trap and kill Lati@s etc. Plus it also allowed control over weather, something very important in this meta-game.
Scizor has consistently maintained its usage from day #1, so it's a good choice as well. Rotom-W has also been quite popular; as a bulky attacker in the VoltTurn era and then as a Sp.Def. Pokemon during the Genesect/Torn-T meta-game, so I think it deserves a spot too. Dragonite is also a choice due to its consistent popularity.
Coming to the banned Pokemon, Excadrill and Genesect are both deserving of a spot in my opinion. Both of them were very over-centralizing in their meta-games. Excadrill was incredibly difficult to stop if it got a +2 boost because of its incredible speed and power (Skarmory could be flinched to death). And not only was Genesect used in almost every team during early BW2, people started running non-standard Pokemon (Rotom-H) just to beat all variants of it, and running anything between 2-15 IVs less just to give it a different boost by Download.
Despite the popularity of rain, Heatran also deserves a spot on the list. Rain's superior weather starter and its versatility did reduce the usage of offensive Sun teams, but Heatran's presence is also a primary reason behind their relative unpopularity.Heatran is also the reason why they were almost forced to run Dugtrio in every sun team. In early BW2, Heatran was the only OU counter to Genesect as well as a somewhat decent check for Tornadus-T. Currently, it suffers due to the presence of Keldeo, Breloom and rain, but even then it's a very dominating Pokemon for this metagame.
And finally, I'd like to mention Terrakion. With incredible power and almost perfect coverage with its 100+ BP STABs, CB Terrakion was and still is a frightening Pokemon to face. Unless you have counters like Gliscor/Lando-T, if a CB Terrakion comes in, you can be certain something will take a big hit. Apart from that, Terrakion has the sweeping sets (SD+Rock Gem to beat counters, SD+Salac to sweep/clean, RP, Double Dance), all of which were very threatening. It also has a Lead set which guarantees hazards (+a sweep if you play well) and the Choice Scarf set which is a fantastic revenge killer.
Some other Pokemon worth consideration are Volcarona (SR weak, too many counters), Landorus (never used too much, priority weak, but still a great candidate), Deoxys-S (too short time), Blaziken, Garchomp, Jirachi and Keldeo.
EDIT: Oh, Ninetales can also be added to the list.
Another Pokemon which has almost always been in the #10 most used Pokemon is Ferrothorn. Ferro was (and is) the only true counter to Kingdra and Starmie, and checks Lati@s, dragons locked into Outrage. It's attack is also decent and both its moves are powerful, plus it can set up both SR and Spikes and heal itself with Leech Seed.
Tyranitar was also a pretty dominant Pokemon this gen. Despite the plethora of Fighting type Pokemon in OU, TTar still maintained high usage. In early BW1, TTar provided sand, abused by Exca, 'Chomp and Landorus. While Exca's ban reduced its utility just a bit, it could still be partnered with Fighting types (like Terrakion, Breloom and most recently Keldeo) to trap and kill Lati@s etc. Plus it also allowed control over weather, something very important in this meta-game.
Scizor has consistently maintained its usage from day #1, so it's a good choice as well. Rotom-W has also been quite popular; as a bulky attacker in the VoltTurn era and then as a Sp.Def. Pokemon during the Genesect/Torn-T meta-game, so I think it deserves a spot too. Dragonite is also a choice due to its consistent popularity.
Coming to the banned Pokemon, Excadrill and Genesect are both deserving of a spot in my opinion. Both of them were very over-centralizing in their meta-games. Excadrill was incredibly difficult to stop if it got a +2 boost because of its incredible speed and power (Skarmory could be flinched to death). And not only was Genesect used in almost every team during early BW2, people started running non-standard Pokemon (Rotom-H) just to beat all variants of it, and running anything between 2-15 IVs less just to give it a different boost by Download.
Despite the popularity of rain, Heatran also deserves a spot on the list. Rain's superior weather starter and its versatility did reduce the usage of offensive Sun teams, but Heatran's presence is also a primary reason behind their relative unpopularity.Heatran is also the reason why they were almost forced to run Dugtrio in every sun team. In early BW2, Heatran was the only OU counter to Genesect as well as a somewhat decent check for Tornadus-T. Currently, it suffers due to the presence of Keldeo, Breloom and rain, but even then it's a very dominating Pokemon for this metagame.
And finally, I'd like to mention Terrakion. With incredible power and almost perfect coverage with its 100+ BP STABs, CB Terrakion was and still is a frightening Pokemon to face. Unless you have counters like Gliscor/Lando-T, if a CB Terrakion comes in, you can be certain something will take a big hit. Apart from that, Terrakion has the sweeping sets (SD+Rock Gem to beat counters, SD+Salac to sweep/clean, RP, Double Dance), all of which were very threatening. It also has a Lead set which guarantees hazards (+a sweep if you play well) and the Choice Scarf set which is a fantastic revenge killer.
Some other Pokemon worth consideration are Volcarona (SR weak, too many counters), Landorus (never used too much, priority weak, but still a great candidate), Deoxys-S (too short time), Blaziken, Garchomp, Jirachi and Keldeo.
EDIT: Oh, Ninetales can also be added to the list.
I can definitly see Gliscor being a top 10
Seriously this guy was dominant in BW1. SubToxic Gliscor was pretty much everywhere, and the Sub + SD set in sand became very popular and scary to face around about the time last years WCOP happened when it became popular. Boasting nice resistances and bulk, defensive sets work pretty well to counter huge threats such as terrakion and breloom. SubToxic was THE most annoying thing to encounter on the ladder and tournaments, seriously this thing caused so much rage and hate with its easy to use and abuse strategy, no wonder it was the face of quick stall / balanced sand teams for a while. His incredibly strong run in BW1 would make him a top 10 by himself imo, but his rather weak BW2 showing lets him down. The Sand Veil ban got rid of one of his most viable sets, and SubToxic Gliscor is nowhere near what it was this time last year. Overall I think it is definitly worthy of a spot here in the top 10 but we'll see what other people think
Seriously this guy was dominant in BW1. SubToxic Gliscor was pretty much everywhere, and the Sub + SD set in sand became very popular and scary to face around about the time last years WCOP happened when it became popular. Boasting nice resistances and bulk, defensive sets work pretty well to counter huge threats such as terrakion and breloom. SubToxic was THE most annoying thing to encounter on the ladder and tournaments, seriously this thing caused so much rage and hate with its easy to use and abuse strategy, no wonder it was the face of quick stall / balanced sand teams for a while. His incredibly strong run in BW1 would make him a top 10 by himself imo, but his rather weak BW2 showing lets him down. The Sand Veil ban got rid of one of his most viable sets, and SubToxic Gliscor is nowhere near what it was this time last year. Overall I think it is definitly worthy of a spot here in the top 10 but we'll see what other people think
Well lets see, if Politoed were banned in lets say round 2 of BW 1, we would never have seen the emergence of Rain stall, Tornadus-T and Keldeo never emerge as A tier threats, Gastrodon and Jolteon never become OU, Tentacruel and Toxicroak probably drop to UU at some point. So it's effect on the metagame is immediately undermined. That's not to mention the other aspects of the game that revolved around Rain, maybe without the big schoolyard bullies around, Ninetales and co finally get their place in the sun (excuse my bad puns, I've become delirious from my fever), and Volcarona gets the boot to Ubers instead of Tornadus-T. So no, we would not say it was nearly as influential. While Politoed was instantly a force in the metagame, it's effect wasn't even close to constant. Genesect probably could've done way more to the metagame, but at the end of the day it didn't, Pokemon like Politoed, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn were what reshaped the metagame.
Landorus-I
Sand Force, Sheer Force (DW)
89 | 125 | 90 | 115 | 80 | 101
Im surprised that no one have been suggesting Landorus-I. This genie is probably or maby the best late game sweeper in this meta with his fantastic coverage and great ability in Sheer Force and Sand Force, he can easely work as an Scarfer, Swords Dancer/Bulk Up or the infamous Rock Polish cleaner which makes him very versatile. He also has great attacking power with good 125 | 115 | 101 stats while also having decent defenses is making this guy hard to take down with priority (bar Ice Shard), which is huge when it comes to sweeping. Therefore im nominating Landorus-I to one of the top 10 titans of BW1/2 as there is literally no counters to this monster, and with his ability and stats he surely has the potential to be a top 10 titan.
Why nobody mentioned these two guys yet?
Celebi is used mainly for its ability to check or outright counter rain teams, but Celebi has other uses, like countering top-threats like Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, or sweeping rain teams and weakened sand teams. Celebi is also the best counter to Breloom. Sun teams hamper Celebi's effectiveness, but when paired with the proper weather support, not even them are a problem for Celebi. This Pokémon is also useful to keep Fighting-types at bay, as Celebi can deal with most of them.
The specially defensive set is one of the most used sets, and for good reason. This is the set that wall many top-threats like the aforementioned Keldeo and Landorus. It is able to wall any rain team that doesn't pack Tornadus or Scizor, two of the most effective ways to get rid of Celebi on rain teams. However, Celebi can use an offensive Nasty Plot set to sweep the same rain teams instead of walling them. With the proper support, this set can also sweep weakened sand teams, weatherless teams, and can deal with some threats of sun teams.
Peharps what makes Celebi able to fill these roles, is its stats, combined with its movepool and unique typing. 100 base stats aren't what they used to be, but a Pokémon with 100 base stats is still very useful. Celebi is one of the few threats that has sufficient defenses to tank those rain-boosted Hydro Pumps from the likes of Keldeo and Politoed, of course, the Psychic/Grass typing helps here. Speaking of which, Celebi's typing is extremely underrated, just because it gives an extremely unfortunate number of weakness. Celebi is weak to U-Turn, weak to Pursuit, weak to Ice Shard, weak to Fire-type attacks, and is weak to Hurricane. The weakness to Hurricane and U-Turn is the reason why Celebi couldn't keep up on a metagame where Genesect dominated, but it was still very useful to counter Water-types, but when Tornadus-T was dominating, Celebi was still put on a though position, though usually once Tornadus-T was gone, Celebi could wall rain teams eternally. Well, these weakness are certainly unfortunate. However, nowadays Hurricane is a rare move to be used, nobody uses Poison-type attacks, both Pursuit and U-Turn are very predictable, and Celebi can tank many Ice-type attacks. So, very few of its weakness are actually relevant. Psychic/Grass is an underrated typing because it also gives awesome resistances to Fighting, Psychic, Water, Ground, and Electric. These resistances are what give Celebi the ability to destroy Fighting-types and Water-types, as well as Ground-types. Lastly, Celebi has a rather impressive movepool for a Grass-type. Apart from its STAB moves, Celebi has Hidden Power coverage (which is usually sufficient) and Earth Power, to smash any Heatran that thougth that they could counter Celebi. While Celebi's offensive movepool is not that great, it contains every option that Celebi needs for coverage, and it even has U-Turn to mantain momentum, and its defensive movepool has amazing support options like Perish Song (an extremely useful move that unfortunately has shallow distribution), Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, and even Leech Seed.
If you want to deal with Celebi, one of the best ways is Tyranitar. Watch out for Nasty Plot sets, as they can effectively deal with Tyranitar. However, defensive sets have problems as they are extremely prone to being Pursuit trapped, unless Celebi carry Baton Pass. Peharps this is one of the reasons why Tyranitar is so omnipresent, as Celebi can wall threats like Sheer Force Landorus and Keldeo, and Tyranitar can get rid of most their counters. This is a proof that Celebi has contributed to shape the metagame. The Nasty Plot set can get past Celebi's common counters and checks, like Tyranitar, Scizor, and Heatran, and thus, the best way to deal with Celebi on that case is to pack a powerful Pokémon that can outpeed and hit with a move that Celebi is weak. There are very few Pokémon nowadays that fit this description. Some of them are Terrakion with X-Scissor and physical Landorus (with U-Turn), but they are rare.
Keldeo was introduced as one of the threats that every team should prepare for. It was not too late until people realized the mighty power of Hydro Pump. While Keldeo can sweep late-game with its Scarf set, its Specs and Calm Mind sets bring absolute power to the table. When not boosted by rain, these sets are already though to deal with, but if rain-boosted, only the bulkiest of resists is able to effectively deal with Keldeo. This is the reason why people started to run things like Amoongus, Jellicent, and Celebi, which is a proof that Keldeo is shaping the metagame.
The most used set is Choice Scarf, as it is very hard to find something that can outspeed it and take repeated hits when boosted by rain. This forces people to use defensive checks and counters to deal with Tyranitar. However, this is not the only set that Keldeo can run. Choice Specs absolutely kick asses, and hits hard right off the bat. It is very hard to find something that can tank hits from this set. Calm Mind unfortunately has to waste time setting up, and has lesser coverage, but as it can switch moves, this set has peharps more sweeping potential. The SubCM set is rare, but it is so dangerous... It can also deal with its normal checks and counters. The recent Expert Belt set is also dangerous, as it can effectively deal with Keldeo's counters. Thougth that your Celebi was a foolproof counter to your Keldeo? Met a Hidden Power Bug on your face!
What peharps make Keldeo have impact, is its Water/Fighting typing, combined with its stats. Keldeo has the same stats as Terrakion; only its Special Attack and Attack are inverted. It sits at an awesome speed tier, easily outspeeding threats like Landorus, Thundurus-T, and many Dragons like Dragonite and Salamence. Fighting gives Keldeo a resistance to Stealth Rock, as well as an awesome STAB that lets Keldeo deal with three of the biggest enemies to Water-types around; Ferrothorn and the pink blobs. Also, all you know that Fighting is an awesome STAB move to spam, as even the few Fighting-type resists are hard pressed to tank repeated Fighting-type blows, although Keldeo's icing on the cake is its Water-type STAB. Thanks to Keldeo's awesome Special Attack and rain, Hydro Pump is so powerful that simply resisting Hydro Pump is not sufficient, the pokémon should resist Hydro Pump AND have the defensive stats to tank repeated Hydro Pumps. While Keldeo has a shallow movepool, it gets an interesting move; Secret Sword. It is not as powerful as Close Combat, or even Focus Blast, but it hits enemies on their physical Defense. This means that Keldeo is the only special sweeper on the game that can easily bypass both Chansey and Blissey, without any prior setup! This peharps has contributed to shape the metagame, as thanks to Keldeo, Blissey and Chansey are no longer useful as special walls. Also, despite Keldeo's shallow movepool, Hydro Pump is so powerful that it can often compensate for that. However, it is certainly a shame that Keldeo gets to the point to miss things that other Water-types do not miss, like Ice Beam. Also, Water/Fighting is a rather awesome typing defensively speaking. It resists Stealth Rock, resists Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, is not weak to Mach Punch, and resists U-Turn and both Water and Fire. Keldeo has a respectable bulk, but you shouldn't be counting on it to tank hits. However, with that bulk, Keldeo can take resisted hits well, and even some weaker super-effective hits like Starmie's Thunderbolt.
It is very hard to deal with this thing. Usually the only way to deal with Keldeo is using more defensive Pokémon like Latias, Amoongus, Celebi, and Jellicent, all which can stop Keldeo on its tracks. However, all of them are weak to Tyranitar, and thus even then are not a reliable way to stop Keldeo. Toxicroak also usually counters Keldeo, and unlike the aforementioned counters, Toxicroak does not fear Keldeo at all. However, it needs rain to function, so it is an unreliable Keldeo counter. When Keldeo is not using a Choice Scarf, however, it is easier to deal with. Revenge killers like Latios, Alakazam, and physical Landorus under sand, easily beat Keldeo. The problem is that the most common Keldeo set is Choice Scarf, which easily destroy offensive threats. All things combined, Keldeo is certainly one of the titans from the metagame, as it helped to shape it and make awesome cores with other Pokémon.
Celebi is used mainly for its ability to check or outright counter rain teams, but Celebi has other uses, like countering top-threats like Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, or sweeping rain teams and weakened sand teams. Celebi is also the best counter to Breloom. Sun teams hamper Celebi's effectiveness, but when paired with the proper weather support, not even them are a problem for Celebi. This Pokémon is also useful to keep Fighting-types at bay, as Celebi can deal with most of them.
The specially defensive set is one of the most used sets, and for good reason. This is the set that wall many top-threats like the aforementioned Keldeo and Landorus. It is able to wall any rain team that doesn't pack Tornadus or Scizor, two of the most effective ways to get rid of Celebi on rain teams. However, Celebi can use an offensive Nasty Plot set to sweep the same rain teams instead of walling them. With the proper support, this set can also sweep weakened sand teams, weatherless teams, and can deal with some threats of sun teams.
Peharps what makes Celebi able to fill these roles, is its stats, combined with its movepool and unique typing. 100 base stats aren't what they used to be, but a Pokémon with 100 base stats is still very useful. Celebi is one of the few threats that has sufficient defenses to tank those rain-boosted Hydro Pumps from the likes of Keldeo and Politoed, of course, the Psychic/Grass typing helps here. Speaking of which, Celebi's typing is extremely underrated, just because it gives an extremely unfortunate number of weakness. Celebi is weak to U-Turn, weak to Pursuit, weak to Ice Shard, weak to Fire-type attacks, and is weak to Hurricane. The weakness to Hurricane and U-Turn is the reason why Celebi couldn't keep up on a metagame where Genesect dominated, but it was still very useful to counter Water-types, but when Tornadus-T was dominating, Celebi was still put on a though position, though usually once Tornadus-T was gone, Celebi could wall rain teams eternally. Well, these weakness are certainly unfortunate. However, nowadays Hurricane is a rare move to be used, nobody uses Poison-type attacks, both Pursuit and U-Turn are very predictable, and Celebi can tank many Ice-type attacks. So, very few of its weakness are actually relevant. Psychic/Grass is an underrated typing because it also gives awesome resistances to Fighting, Psychic, Water, Ground, and Electric. These resistances are what give Celebi the ability to destroy Fighting-types and Water-types, as well as Ground-types. Lastly, Celebi has a rather impressive movepool for a Grass-type. Apart from its STAB moves, Celebi has Hidden Power coverage (which is usually sufficient) and Earth Power, to smash any Heatran that thougth that they could counter Celebi. While Celebi's offensive movepool is not that great, it contains every option that Celebi needs for coverage, and it even has U-Turn to mantain momentum, and its defensive movepool has amazing support options like Perish Song (an extremely useful move that unfortunately has shallow distribution), Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, and even Leech Seed.
If you want to deal with Celebi, one of the best ways is Tyranitar. Watch out for Nasty Plot sets, as they can effectively deal with Tyranitar. However, defensive sets have problems as they are extremely prone to being Pursuit trapped, unless Celebi carry Baton Pass. Peharps this is one of the reasons why Tyranitar is so omnipresent, as Celebi can wall threats like Sheer Force Landorus and Keldeo, and Tyranitar can get rid of most their counters. This is a proof that Celebi has contributed to shape the metagame. The Nasty Plot set can get past Celebi's common counters and checks, like Tyranitar, Scizor, and Heatran, and thus, the best way to deal with Celebi on that case is to pack a powerful Pokémon that can outpeed and hit with a move that Celebi is weak. There are very few Pokémon nowadays that fit this description. Some of them are Terrakion with X-Scissor and physical Landorus (with U-Turn), but they are rare.
Keldeo was introduced as one of the threats that every team should prepare for. It was not too late until people realized the mighty power of Hydro Pump. While Keldeo can sweep late-game with its Scarf set, its Specs and Calm Mind sets bring absolute power to the table. When not boosted by rain, these sets are already though to deal with, but if rain-boosted, only the bulkiest of resists is able to effectively deal with Keldeo. This is the reason why people started to run things like Amoongus, Jellicent, and Celebi, which is a proof that Keldeo is shaping the metagame.
The most used set is Choice Scarf, as it is very hard to find something that can outspeed it and take repeated hits when boosted by rain. This forces people to use defensive checks and counters to deal with Tyranitar. However, this is not the only set that Keldeo can run. Choice Specs absolutely kick asses, and hits hard right off the bat. It is very hard to find something that can tank hits from this set. Calm Mind unfortunately has to waste time setting up, and has lesser coverage, but as it can switch moves, this set has peharps more sweeping potential. The SubCM set is rare, but it is so dangerous... It can also deal with its normal checks and counters. The recent Expert Belt set is also dangerous, as it can effectively deal with Keldeo's counters. Thougth that your Celebi was a foolproof counter to your Keldeo? Met a Hidden Power Bug on your face!
What peharps make Keldeo have impact, is its Water/Fighting typing, combined with its stats. Keldeo has the same stats as Terrakion; only its Special Attack and Attack are inverted. It sits at an awesome speed tier, easily outspeeding threats like Landorus, Thundurus-T, and many Dragons like Dragonite and Salamence. Fighting gives Keldeo a resistance to Stealth Rock, as well as an awesome STAB that lets Keldeo deal with three of the biggest enemies to Water-types around; Ferrothorn and the pink blobs. Also, all you know that Fighting is an awesome STAB move to spam, as even the few Fighting-type resists are hard pressed to tank repeated Fighting-type blows, although Keldeo's icing on the cake is its Water-type STAB. Thanks to Keldeo's awesome Special Attack and rain, Hydro Pump is so powerful that simply resisting Hydro Pump is not sufficient, the pokémon should resist Hydro Pump AND have the defensive stats to tank repeated Hydro Pumps. While Keldeo has a shallow movepool, it gets an interesting move; Secret Sword. It is not as powerful as Close Combat, or even Focus Blast, but it hits enemies on their physical Defense. This means that Keldeo is the only special sweeper on the game that can easily bypass both Chansey and Blissey, without any prior setup! This peharps has contributed to shape the metagame, as thanks to Keldeo, Blissey and Chansey are no longer useful as special walls. Also, despite Keldeo's shallow movepool, Hydro Pump is so powerful that it can often compensate for that. However, it is certainly a shame that Keldeo gets to the point to miss things that other Water-types do not miss, like Ice Beam. Also, Water/Fighting is a rather awesome typing defensively speaking. It resists Stealth Rock, resists Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, is not weak to Mach Punch, and resists U-Turn and both Water and Fire. Keldeo has a respectable bulk, but you shouldn't be counting on it to tank hits. However, with that bulk, Keldeo can take resisted hits well, and even some weaker super-effective hits like Starmie's Thunderbolt.
It is very hard to deal with this thing. Usually the only way to deal with Keldeo is using more defensive Pokémon like Latias, Amoongus, Celebi, and Jellicent, all which can stop Keldeo on its tracks. However, all of them are weak to Tyranitar, and thus even then are not a reliable way to stop Keldeo. Toxicroak also usually counters Keldeo, and unlike the aforementioned counters, Toxicroak does not fear Keldeo at all. However, it needs rain to function, so it is an unreliable Keldeo counter. When Keldeo is not using a Choice Scarf, however, it is easier to deal with. Revenge killers like Latios, Alakazam, and physical Landorus under sand, easily beat Keldeo. The problem is that the most common Keldeo set is Choice Scarf, which easily destroy offensive threats. All things combined, Keldeo is certainly one of the titans from the metagame, as it helped to shape it and make awesome cores with other Pokémon.
Hmm, there are honestly a lot of good choices for the top 10 OU Pokemon of 5th Gen. I guess my top nominations would be these.
Blaziken: Yeah, I'm kinda biased here, but I don't think there's any denying just how dangerous Blaziken was when it was running around OU. Blaziken is arguably one of the most threatening (if not the most threatening) Sun abusers of 5th Gen as a whole. There were pretty much no common OU Pokemon that could tank a +2 Adamant LO Blaziken in the Sun with Stealth Rock down, and that's with just Hi Jump Kick and Flare Blitz. Defensive Gyarados could take a hit, but Waterfall did pretty low damage with Sun up. This left people using lower tier Pokemon such as Slowbro and Azumarill to keep Blaziken in check, and even then Azumarill lost to Blaziken in Sun due to Aqua Jet being weakened, and Slowbro really needed Psychic to safely handle him. Speed Boost was the real killer, since it left Blaziken unable to be outsped by most Scarf'd Pokemon with an Adamant nature, and pretty much everything with a Jolly nature. Priority also wasn't always a safe bet since Aqua Jet (the only priority Blaziken is weak to) was weakened by Sun. Even if Technician Breloom existed back then, it's Adamant CB Mach Punch does a maximum of about 85% damage to Blaziken, so it's still have enough HP to OHKO and possibly take something else down with it or at least cripple something. Blaziken was just insane, and I honestly think he's an easy pick for a top 10 candidate.
Politoed: If it weren't for Drizzle, Politoed would probably be rotting in the depths of PU, but permanent Rain is just so amazing that Politoed has been a pretty consistent top 10 Pokemon for a very long time (even top 2 for a while up until this past month). There have been several suspect tests and bans that have been brought about at least partially by Rain (Drizzle + Swift Swim, Manaphy, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Keldeo's test). The raw power of Water-boosted attacks coupled with perfectly accurate Hurricanes and Thunders make Rain one of the most powerful team archetypes out there, and it's all thanks to Politoed. As far as raw metagame defining utility, I don't think there is really anything quite as notable as DrizzleToed.
Shaymin-S: Special mention to this guy as the one thing in history that was banned with unanimous consent. Seriously, Skymin was insane. If it didn't break your special walls and tanks down with an 80% chance to lower your SpD stat sharply just by spamming a powerful 120 BP STAB move, it'll flinch you to death with the classic Air Slash shenanigans. It was also incredibly fast and powerful, and it wasn't the easiest thing in the game to keep in check. Overall, very powerful, very broken.
Terrakion: I'm a little biased on this one too, since Terrakion is my favorite 5th Gen Pokemon, but my goodness this thing is definitely a true icon of 5th Gen. I think Terrakion should be guaranteed a spot on this list not only because it's so good and defining, but because it's one of the most powerful offensive Pokemon that's still around today. Terrakion has an incredible combination of raw offensive stats and excellent offensive typing that lets it perform a wide variety of offensive roles. The Scarf set is fast enough to keep virtually all Dragon Dance / Quiver Dance / Scarf users in check, even outspeeding Modest Venusaur in the Sun by a small margin. The Band set is incredible at just spamming its STABs and blowing holes in the opponent's team. Meanwhile, this might open up for a sweep from something like Rock Polish Landorus or Swords Dance Lucario later. You can also sweep with Terrakion, tearing everything in sight to pieces with a Swords Dance boost and screwing over some offensive checks with Substitute. Heck, Terrakion can even support its team with Stealth Rock by using its offensive presence to force switches for free turns, or it can toss Taunt and a Focus Sash on there and make an excellent lead. Easily one of the most versatile and useful Pokemon around today.
Tyranitar: You can't forget this guy. Tyranitar is lucky as he's one example of a weather supporter that doesn't suck outside of setting up his weather. Tyranitar is an incredible offensive tank, taking on Pokemon like Latios, Latias, and Celebi with ease. It's arguably the best Pursuit trapper out there, which can help Pokemon like Keldeo and Landorus sweep when the aforementioned Latias and Celebi are gone. It's also a real danger to have to switch into when it's spamming CB-boosted Stone Edges left and right. Tyranitar has pretty much always been a metagame defining Pokemon, and this generation is no exception.
Scizor: You can't have a Pokemon that has been #1 on the usage stats for so long and not give it a mention (IIRC, Scizor might have not left the top 5 since Platinum). Scizor has one of the best typings in the game, giving it a powerful STAB Bullet Punch to check opposing sweepers with and (currently) the most poweful U-turn in the OU metagame. Scizor's typing and decent bulk also make it a decent Pursuit trapper in its own right, or it can even run Quick Attack to deal better with Pokemon such as Volcarona and Thundurus-T. While Scizor is far from broken, its popularity alone have caused many Pokemon such as Reuniclus, Gengar, and Alakazam to run HP Fire just to deal with it, demonstrating how big a threat it is to those kinds of Pokemon.
Genesect: Genesect was often called the "perfect" Pokemon, and it is true that it had very few flaws. Besides that slightly unfortunate base 99 Spe stat, Genesect was almost perfect: incredible movepool, excellent ability, great offensive stats, and decent bulk to boot. Genesect's Scarf set was capable of tossing around powerful U-turns and checking a wide number of Pokemon with Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt. Its Rock Polish set was also insane if it got a SpA boost from Download, giving it the equivalent of special Shift Gear. Even some of the individual Pokemon that normally could stop it could also be manhandled by the right coverage move, such as HP Ground for Heatran and Giga Drain for Terrakion. As far as usage, it quickly jumped to #1 and was on every other team during its suspect test, so you can't ignore something like that.
Excadrill: If there were one Pokemon that you could say was banned for its prowess under weather, it'd have to be Excadrill. Honestly, there are no other Pokemon banned from OU that have made such a dramatic change from zero to hero just because their preferred weather was up. Excadrill was an incredible offensive Pokemon, getting essentially two Dragon Dances just by using Swords Dance in Sand. Other Pokemon can obviously do this as well, but the real problem was that this was backed by an insane base 135 Atk stat. This gave Excadrill an incredibly powerful Earthquake, and it essentially made him a perfect spinner; an incoming Jellicent could be OHKOd by a +2 Earthquake, leaving Excadrill to spin freely as he pleased. Excadrill also put a huge burden on offensive teams, which could not outspeed him with a Scarf user and had to rely on something like Mach Punch Conkeldurr to help keep him in check. Even its best "counters" (Skarmory, Gliscor, Bronzong) could be worked around. Definitely a metagame-defining Pokemon.
Tornadus-T: Tornadus-T was an insane sweeper and Rain abuser. The real danger wasn't just his powerful Hurricane, incredible speed, or good coverage with a Flying STAB moves alongside Superpower / Focus Blast. It was also attributed to the combination of U-turn and Regenerator. This made it almost a no-risk sort of Pokemon. Despite being weak to Stealth Rock, a non-Life Orb Tornadus-T could switch into Stealth Rock, force a switch and possibly rack up hazard damage that way, do a little damage with U-turn, and switch right back out. Meanwhile, it just gained 8.33% health from all that. This, compiled with his other naturally good offensive assets, made him pretty easy to use and fairly hard to play around.
Ferrothorn: Can't believe I almost forgot this guy. Ferrothorn really gave defensive playstyles a huge boost when it was introduced. It has several important roles, and it's so good at them that there's no wonder why it's now #2 on the usage stats. Ferrothorn's unique set of resistances gives it an edge that other Steel types don't have, letting it tank Water and Electric attacks more easily than other bulky Steel types such as Jirachi and Heatra. It also has a great combination of both physical and special bulk, so it's not quite as lopsided as Skarmory and Forretress. Iron Barbs is such a great ability when you're tanking Outrages from opposing Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp. Most importantly, though, Ferrothorn is an incredible entry hazard supporter. Not only does it have access to both Spikes and Stealth Rock, but it has the bulk and typing to repeatedly switch in and set up as needed. It can even cripple opposing sweepers with Thunder Wave, so even then they aren't safe. Offensively, it's no slouch either, sporting two powerful STAB moves coming off a decent base 94 Atk stat. Easily one of the best bulky Pokemon around.
That's my own personal opinion. I've seen a lot of other great suggestions, and I think Pokemon like Keldeo, Landorus, Blissey, Skarmory, Volcarona, Garchomp, Dragonite, and Gliscor deserve consideration. Above all, I'd really like to at least see Politoed, Blaziken, Tyranitar, and Terrakion on a list like this.
Blaziken: Yeah, I'm kinda biased here, but I don't think there's any denying just how dangerous Blaziken was when it was running around OU. Blaziken is arguably one of the most threatening (if not the most threatening) Sun abusers of 5th Gen as a whole. There were pretty much no common OU Pokemon that could tank a +2 Adamant LO Blaziken in the Sun with Stealth Rock down, and that's with just Hi Jump Kick and Flare Blitz. Defensive Gyarados could take a hit, but Waterfall did pretty low damage with Sun up. This left people using lower tier Pokemon such as Slowbro and Azumarill to keep Blaziken in check, and even then Azumarill lost to Blaziken in Sun due to Aqua Jet being weakened, and Slowbro really needed Psychic to safely handle him. Speed Boost was the real killer, since it left Blaziken unable to be outsped by most Scarf'd Pokemon with an Adamant nature, and pretty much everything with a Jolly nature. Priority also wasn't always a safe bet since Aqua Jet (the only priority Blaziken is weak to) was weakened by Sun. Even if Technician Breloom existed back then, it's Adamant CB Mach Punch does a maximum of about 85% damage to Blaziken, so it's still have enough HP to OHKO and possibly take something else down with it or at least cripple something. Blaziken was just insane, and I honestly think he's an easy pick for a top 10 candidate.
Politoed: If it weren't for Drizzle, Politoed would probably be rotting in the depths of PU, but permanent Rain is just so amazing that Politoed has been a pretty consistent top 10 Pokemon for a very long time (even top 2 for a while up until this past month). There have been several suspect tests and bans that have been brought about at least partially by Rain (Drizzle + Swift Swim, Manaphy, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Keldeo's test). The raw power of Water-boosted attacks coupled with perfectly accurate Hurricanes and Thunders make Rain one of the most powerful team archetypes out there, and it's all thanks to Politoed. As far as raw metagame defining utility, I don't think there is really anything quite as notable as DrizzleToed.
Shaymin-S: Special mention to this guy as the one thing in history that was banned with unanimous consent. Seriously, Skymin was insane. If it didn't break your special walls and tanks down with an 80% chance to lower your SpD stat sharply just by spamming a powerful 120 BP STAB move, it'll flinch you to death with the classic Air Slash shenanigans. It was also incredibly fast and powerful, and it wasn't the easiest thing in the game to keep in check. Overall, very powerful, very broken.
Terrakion: I'm a little biased on this one too, since Terrakion is my favorite 5th Gen Pokemon, but my goodness this thing is definitely a true icon of 5th Gen. I think Terrakion should be guaranteed a spot on this list not only because it's so good and defining, but because it's one of the most powerful offensive Pokemon that's still around today. Terrakion has an incredible combination of raw offensive stats and excellent offensive typing that lets it perform a wide variety of offensive roles. The Scarf set is fast enough to keep virtually all Dragon Dance / Quiver Dance / Scarf users in check, even outspeeding Modest Venusaur in the Sun by a small margin. The Band set is incredible at just spamming its STABs and blowing holes in the opponent's team. Meanwhile, this might open up for a sweep from something like Rock Polish Landorus or Swords Dance Lucario later. You can also sweep with Terrakion, tearing everything in sight to pieces with a Swords Dance boost and screwing over some offensive checks with Substitute. Heck, Terrakion can even support its team with Stealth Rock by using its offensive presence to force switches for free turns, or it can toss Taunt and a Focus Sash on there and make an excellent lead. Easily one of the most versatile and useful Pokemon around today.
Tyranitar: You can't forget this guy. Tyranitar is lucky as he's one example of a weather supporter that doesn't suck outside of setting up his weather. Tyranitar is an incredible offensive tank, taking on Pokemon like Latios, Latias, and Celebi with ease. It's arguably the best Pursuit trapper out there, which can help Pokemon like Keldeo and Landorus sweep when the aforementioned Latias and Celebi are gone. It's also a real danger to have to switch into when it's spamming CB-boosted Stone Edges left and right. Tyranitar has pretty much always been a metagame defining Pokemon, and this generation is no exception.
Scizor: You can't have a Pokemon that has been #1 on the usage stats for so long and not give it a mention (IIRC, Scizor might have not left the top 5 since Platinum). Scizor has one of the best typings in the game, giving it a powerful STAB Bullet Punch to check opposing sweepers with and (currently) the most poweful U-turn in the OU metagame. Scizor's typing and decent bulk also make it a decent Pursuit trapper in its own right, or it can even run Quick Attack to deal better with Pokemon such as Volcarona and Thundurus-T. While Scizor is far from broken, its popularity alone have caused many Pokemon such as Reuniclus, Gengar, and Alakazam to run HP Fire just to deal with it, demonstrating how big a threat it is to those kinds of Pokemon.
Genesect: Genesect was often called the "perfect" Pokemon, and it is true that it had very few flaws. Besides that slightly unfortunate base 99 Spe stat, Genesect was almost perfect: incredible movepool, excellent ability, great offensive stats, and decent bulk to boot. Genesect's Scarf set was capable of tossing around powerful U-turns and checking a wide number of Pokemon with Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt. Its Rock Polish set was also insane if it got a SpA boost from Download, giving it the equivalent of special Shift Gear. Even some of the individual Pokemon that normally could stop it could also be manhandled by the right coverage move, such as HP Ground for Heatran and Giga Drain for Terrakion. As far as usage, it quickly jumped to #1 and was on every other team during its suspect test, so you can't ignore something like that.
Excadrill: If there were one Pokemon that you could say was banned for its prowess under weather, it'd have to be Excadrill. Honestly, there are no other Pokemon banned from OU that have made such a dramatic change from zero to hero just because their preferred weather was up. Excadrill was an incredible offensive Pokemon, getting essentially two Dragon Dances just by using Swords Dance in Sand. Other Pokemon can obviously do this as well, but the real problem was that this was backed by an insane base 135 Atk stat. This gave Excadrill an incredibly powerful Earthquake, and it essentially made him a perfect spinner; an incoming Jellicent could be OHKOd by a +2 Earthquake, leaving Excadrill to spin freely as he pleased. Excadrill also put a huge burden on offensive teams, which could not outspeed him with a Scarf user and had to rely on something like Mach Punch Conkeldurr to help keep him in check. Even its best "counters" (Skarmory, Gliscor, Bronzong) could be worked around. Definitely a metagame-defining Pokemon.
Tornadus-T: Tornadus-T was an insane sweeper and Rain abuser. The real danger wasn't just his powerful Hurricane, incredible speed, or good coverage with a Flying STAB moves alongside Superpower / Focus Blast. It was also attributed to the combination of U-turn and Regenerator. This made it almost a no-risk sort of Pokemon. Despite being weak to Stealth Rock, a non-Life Orb Tornadus-T could switch into Stealth Rock, force a switch and possibly rack up hazard damage that way, do a little damage with U-turn, and switch right back out. Meanwhile, it just gained 8.33% health from all that. This, compiled with his other naturally good offensive assets, made him pretty easy to use and fairly hard to play around.
Ferrothorn: Can't believe I almost forgot this guy. Ferrothorn really gave defensive playstyles a huge boost when it was introduced. It has several important roles, and it's so good at them that there's no wonder why it's now #2 on the usage stats. Ferrothorn's unique set of resistances gives it an edge that other Steel types don't have, letting it tank Water and Electric attacks more easily than other bulky Steel types such as Jirachi and Heatra. It also has a great combination of both physical and special bulk, so it's not quite as lopsided as Skarmory and Forretress. Iron Barbs is such a great ability when you're tanking Outrages from opposing Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp. Most importantly, though, Ferrothorn is an incredible entry hazard supporter. Not only does it have access to both Spikes and Stealth Rock, but it has the bulk and typing to repeatedly switch in and set up as needed. It can even cripple opposing sweepers with Thunder Wave, so even then they aren't safe. Offensively, it's no slouch either, sporting two powerful STAB moves coming off a decent base 94 Atk stat. Easily one of the best bulky Pokemon around.
That's my own personal opinion. I've seen a lot of other great suggestions, and I think Pokemon like Keldeo, Landorus, Blissey, Skarmory, Volcarona, Garchomp, Dragonite, and Gliscor deserve consideration. Above all, I'd really like to at least see Politoed, Blaziken, Tyranitar, and Terrakion on a list like this.
Gotta go with:
Ninetales
Politoed
Tyranitar
Obvious choices. These 3 are the first 3 that come to mind when you say "Weather Teams". The metagame has revolved around weather, so these 3 not being listed would be a travesty. Of course there's Hippowdon and Abomasnow but Hippowdon has played 2nd fiddle to Tyranitar and hail just isn't as popular as the first 3 weathers.
Then for the next 7 slots I'd go with
Scizor - Already been said a lot.
Genesect - See above
Terrakion - See above...
Keldeo - Someone got to it above me
Jirachi - Jirachi is just outstanding, can be used in any role.
Ferrothorn - With BW being based around brute power, even unboosted fighting moves don't usually one blow Ferrothorn. To show just how good Ferro is, see how far your rain team gets without a Ferrothorn answer.
Blissey - Yeah, Blissey! Blissey is incredible. Fighting got buffed to high hell, and with Psyshock looming, Blissey still being OU is incredible which is a testament to how good she is at forcing special sweepers out for a free wish or toxic.
Honorable mentions go to Garchomp, Rotom-W, Starmie & Gengar (love those 2) and the Latis.
Ninetales
Politoed
Tyranitar
Obvious choices. These 3 are the first 3 that come to mind when you say "Weather Teams". The metagame has revolved around weather, so these 3 not being listed would be a travesty. Of course there's Hippowdon and Abomasnow but Hippowdon has played 2nd fiddle to Tyranitar and hail just isn't as popular as the first 3 weathers.
Then for the next 7 slots I'd go with
Scizor - Already been said a lot.
Genesect - See above
Terrakion - See above...
Keldeo - Someone got to it above me
Jirachi - Jirachi is just outstanding, can be used in any role.
Ferrothorn - With BW being based around brute power, even unboosted fighting moves don't usually one blow Ferrothorn. To show just how good Ferro is, see how far your rain team gets without a Ferrothorn answer.
Blissey - Yeah, Blissey! Blissey is incredible. Fighting got buffed to high hell, and with Psyshock looming, Blissey still being OU is incredible which is a testament to how good she is at forcing special sweepers out for a free wish or toxic.
Honorable mentions go to Garchomp, Rotom-W, Starmie & Gengar (love those 2) and the Latis.
People are comparing Genesect's shorter impact to Polietoed's two year reign of terror, and they're saying how if Politoed were banned early in BW1 than rain would have been a footnote this generation.
Well of course it would have been. As has been said, Genesect didn't have time to properly shape the metagame, but he was already the best Pokémon in the game in the short time we allowed him and he was very quickly shaping the metagame. Pokémon WERE BEGINNING to live and die based on how they stacked up against Genesect. For god's sake, I ran Scarf Archeops with Heat Wave almost purely to fuck over Genesect and it worked beautifully. Given another few months we would have a very, very different metagame, and to miss that is to discount what is quite possibly the best Pokémon ever made.
Well of course it would have been. As has been said, Genesect didn't have time to properly shape the metagame, but he was already the best Pokémon in the game in the short time we allowed him and he was very quickly shaping the metagame. Pokémon WERE BEGINNING to live and die based on how they stacked up against Genesect. For god's sake, I ran Scarf Archeops with Heat Wave almost purely to fuck over Genesect and it worked beautifully. Given another few months we would have a very, very different metagame, and to miss that is to discount what is quite possibly the best Pokémon ever made.
With respect to you, Lord of Bays, I am sort of tired of seeing so much retroactive Genesect-hype.
Genesect was the best Pokemon in OU while he was here, but that has literally been true of almost every single Pokemon we've banned this entire Gen! You say that Pokemon were beginning to live or die based on their matchup with Genesect, but it simply isn't true.
Just look at the top 25. Seriously, look at them. From Genesect's entrance into the metagame, until its exit, it may have been the most broken, but the metagame was incredibly stable during that time. It was definitely not reshaping around Genesect like people claim it was. I agree that Genesect hadn't had its full impact yet, but after 5 months, we should've seen something, which we just didn't.
I feel like Genesect is getting hyped up just because people like it. You say Genesect is possibly the best Pokemon ever made. I'm stunned. Would you seriously put it on the same level as Arceus, or Mewtwo? I'm sure we could talk about how Genesect has a better typing and ability than Mewtwo, or we could talk about Genesect fares really well in Ubers even with such powerful Pokemon, but I'm shocked to think that anyone would put Genesect on such a high pedestal as to call it the "best Pokemon ever".
No one is discounting Genesect for getting banned too soon (although it did last longer in OU than several BW1 suspects). But we're looking at suspects based on the actual impact they had on OU, not on the projected impact they might've had given the right circumstances. And the real impact which Genesect had in its time was just not as large as other Pokemon.
Alright, enough about Genesect. Obviously not everyone will agree with everyone else's nominations, but there is one thing which worries me. Seeing nominations like Keldeo (which is a fantastic Pokemon, but bear with me) makes me think that people are making nominations based on how potent and powerful Pokemon are. I did not write the OP of course, but I do not think this is supposed to be a "What's the strongest Pokemon in OU?" thread. In fact, I feel like this thread is supposed to be more of a Gen V version of this thread. That is, about metagame dominance and impact rather than how "bannable" a Pokemon is. For example, Skarmory made that list despite never even being close to a Suspect Pokemon. I'm not accusing everyone of this, or anyone in particular, I just don't want to see this thread fill up with the 10 best sweepers in the metagame, regardless of how much actual impact they have.
So, I posted some questions in my post here which went unanswered (shame because I feel like having definite answers for them would've seriously helped add more structure to this process). But now I have one more question.
What are we going to do about combinations? For example, Moody had an astonishing impact on the game of Pokemon. Other than Wifi Clause on PO (which Smogon doesn't even use), Moody is the first thing to deserve its own Clause in... I don't even know how long (Evasion Clause covers abilities and items IMO). I'd say that Moody has to go on the list somehow, but it's not really a single Pokemon. Octillery and Bibarel were its face, but even Bidoof swept a couple Ubers team with enough luck. I'm wondering if we could add it just as Moody, or if we would have to cram Bibarel/Glalie/Octillery/Smeargle and all their pre-evolutions into one line on the list. Similarly, assuming Swift Swim makes it on (which I think it should), would we just put Swift Swim, or would we try to fit Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops all in one thing on the list? I'm not entirely sure how these sorts of things work, but I feel like we need to know.
I also feel this thread is meant to be a spiritual successor to the most dominating pokemon of all gens thread, but things are very different. We've had 12 suspect tests, with a huge number of pokemon being banned. Does that mean that every banned pokemon should be on the list? I don't think so. Because of course every suspect was dominating within its own meta, it's always going to be up there. In the other thread this was a bit different because you could see a pokemon's impact outside just its own little suspect test, but that's not possible here.
I'd propose that anything banned should not be considered for this list. Because it would just create a list of the top ten "best banned pokemon", as each was far more dominating than anything else until it left. If you go back to every suspect test and consider what was dominating besides the suspect, that's what's really been the driving force behind the metagame. Politoed, Scizor, Jirachi, Terrakion, these things were always there behind the scenes, no matter who's suspect test was going on.
I'd propose that anything banned should not be considered for this list. Because it would just create a list of the top ten "best banned pokemon", as each was far more dominating than anything else until it left. If you go back to every suspect test and consider what was dominating besides the suspect, that's what's really been the driving force behind the metagame. Politoed, Scizor, Jirachi, Terrakion, these things were always there behind the scenes, no matter who's suspect test was going on.
Definitely going with Rotom-W and Scizor for it.
During mid-early BW1, a new strategy came to existence, which slowly begun to dominate the metagame, and have even had a special discussion about being banned: the VolTurn.
During those times, two pokémon were what defined this strategy, their names being Scizor and Rotom-W. Not only they formed many teams created around them, one could say they shaped the BW metagame, being a duo more present than even SkarmBliss, or any other core for that matter, during those days. They molded the mind of the players and helped the downfall of stall. Our metagame as is now much possibly derives from the simple idea of a team that attacks and switches these two bought us.
But even outside VolTurn they had their impacts. Most notably, Scizor has been the number 1 pokémon throughout almost all the generation, being fittable in almost any team and the premier Dragon check and Rotom-W has been one of the best answers to those dreadful rain sweepers, including the banned Tor-T, but also a force to be reckoned with.
Now, for what is quite possibly the most impacting pokémon of the 5thGen OU metagame: Politoed!
Though you could reserve a special mention to Excadrill here, because only after its banning that Rain started building up steam after the Swift Swim ban, it has never stopped since then. It was the reason why Thundurus and Tornadus were banned, has been the most played style throughout the generation, and, really,it's a no-brainer here. It can turn pokémon from 'meh' to 'awesome', is one of the reasons why Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Thundurus-T are popular, and it changes the entire environment it is on.Drizzle Politoed is, without a single doubt, the most defining pokémon of this generation.
During mid-early BW1, a new strategy came to existence, which slowly begun to dominate the metagame, and have even had a special discussion about being banned: the VolTurn.
During those times, two pokémon were what defined this strategy, their names being Scizor and Rotom-W. Not only they formed many teams created around them, one could say they shaped the BW metagame, being a duo more present than even SkarmBliss, or any other core for that matter, during those days. They molded the mind of the players and helped the downfall of stall. Our metagame as is now much possibly derives from the simple idea of a team that attacks and switches these two bought us.
But even outside VolTurn they had their impacts. Most notably, Scizor has been the number 1 pokémon throughout almost all the generation, being fittable in almost any team and the premier Dragon check and Rotom-W has been one of the best answers to those dreadful rain sweepers, including the banned Tor-T, but also a force to be reckoned with.
Now, for what is quite possibly the most impacting pokémon of the 5thGen OU metagame: Politoed!
Though you could reserve a special mention to Excadrill here, because only after its banning that Rain started building up steam after the Swift Swim ban, it has never stopped since then. It was the reason why Thundurus and Tornadus were banned, has been the most played style throughout the generation, and, really,it's a no-brainer here. It can turn pokémon from 'meh' to 'awesome', is one of the reasons why Ferrothorn, Keldeo and Thundurus-T are popular, and it changes the entire environment it is on.Drizzle Politoed is, without a single doubt, the most defining pokémon of this generation.
I don't really agree Gato. The aforementioned pokemon that were banned still had a considerable impact on the metagame when they were around, and I'd argue that if we didn't include them we'd only be lying, really. You can't really talk about BW1 without having some mention of Thunderus-I, or Excadrill as both of them were around for along time in BW1. I think its impact on the metagame when it was around counts more than whether or not it's allowed.
Obviously my number one on any list would be Politoed. The single most important pokemon of this generation, it really made some pokemon into what they are now. Now regarding banned Pokemon, I played practically throughout BW1, not so much BW2, but I can say simply that Excadrill was one of the most centralizing pokemon. Period. No team would be built without a counter and a check to him. Obviously Blaziken and Thundurus have been discussed, both similar to Excadrill. Another non-banned pokemon that deserves recognition is Dragonite. After Excadrill's ban, the sand and rain died down, and Dragonite became the most feared threat. Along with the indomitable Deoxys-S, whose effect on the meta is very unappreciated, Dragonite became one of the best sweepers, having a free boost up following Multiscale, and then sweeping, having coverage blocked only by Heatran if carrying Fire Punch, and Ferro/Forre and Skarmory if carrying Earthquake. His bulk allowed him to survive Scizor's Bullet Punch if he hadn't taken too much prior damage, unlike Salamence, and he had priority to beat other fast revengers. Also huge was Deoxys-S. I feel like people don't remember the constant use of Deoxys-S during its heyday last year. Hyper Offense was built around Deoxys-S back then, since it fulfilled its various roles even better than Deoxys-D. Its speed decreed that no matter what, a layer of hazards would go up. His Focus Sash set allowed two layers, but Deoxys could run various different sets, including an anti-weather lead set, a Dual Screen set, and several other notable sets. He powered weatherless back up following Exca's ban. It was so good that it pushed the newly banned Deoxys-D into UU for a while. Now the king of OU and his buddy Rotom-W are two more pokemon that deserve to be in this list. If you guys could remember, following Exca's banning, Sand teams became the cliche setup of Tyranitar+BandScizor+Bulky/ChoicedRotomW+ScarfLandorus+Celebi+random mon. This entered the era of Volturn, the most dominant strategy imo of the 5th generation. This team was so self supporting and effective any bad player could pick it up and do some work with it. Obviously the whole setup broke up by the resurgence of Rain, but this team and strategy was so prevalent back then that people actually requested the banning of Volturn.
If you take into account the meaning of influential, I'd say that the following pokemon affected the meta most directly. (No particular order)
Scizor
Dragonite
Rotom-W
Genesect
Politoed
Excadrill
Deoxys-S
Ferrothorn
Tyranitar
Terrakion
If you take into account the meaning of influential, I'd say that the following pokemon affected the meta most directly. (No particular order)
Scizor
Dragonite
Rotom-W
Genesect
Politoed
Excadrill
Deoxys-S
Ferrothorn
Tyranitar
Terrakion
Where's my Dew?
This guy was once feared everywhere in Pokemon. Sky-High SpA stats coupled with above average bulk and blistering Speed, Latios was a King. Oh wait. I forgot Soul Dew, an automatic Calm Mind to boot. How nice.
Roll around Gen V and Latios lost his only friend in the world. However Latios confidently strolled into Gen V with little worries. Smashing everything and everyone with Draco Meteors, no body liked the big blue Eon.
Even Blissey, the world's premier fatass, was "shocked" as Psyshock left the thing in ruins.
However, despite all of these gifts granted upon Latios, he still had a huge Achilles Heel. And it's pretty big actually.
Pursuit.
Tyranitar wasn't liking all the fuss that Latios was makin'. So with his sand he goes around slaying Latios' like no one else's business.
But in all seriousness.
This guy definitely needs a little attention for the Top 10 List. In the OU Metagame, Latios remains as the fastest Pokemon. *All right we have Alakazam and Jolteon...but you see them every once in a while...*
Although Psychic typing and Pursuit can be a nuisance, Latios is not 100% counterable.
Being able to KO Ttars with Surf with some prior damage, OHKO non-Occa Scizors and eliminate those Blisseys with Psyshocks, Latios is really hard to stop once it starts to roll.
But it doesn't stop there. Latios has been able to stop dangerous Pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Venusaur, Hydreigon and Dragonite.
Latios has also been able to fit well into Hyper Offensive Teams and even Balanced. Blessed with the ability to Counter Sand, Sun and Rain as well as fit onto those teams without any issues.
It has a knack for diversity as Calm Mind sweeping, Choice Specs Raping and Choice Scarf killing are all very viable and useful for any team.
While it has its flaws (as any other Pokemon does), Latios strengths well surpass those issues and Latios has been given the tools to mitigate those annoying issues.
I'm trusting someone to do Hydreigon and Garchomp ;]
I disagree really. Although every Pokemon we've banned so far has been broken (well... not quite *coughTornadus-Tcough*), they haven't all been necessarily dominating. In Round 1, Deo-A and Deo-N were pretty broken, but they're impact wasn't that huge, because Skymin and Moody and Darkrai were equally, if not more broken and those three were even more dominating.
I feel like as a community, we should be capable of feeling for the line of where we're measuring a Pokemon's impact on the metagame compared to how lasting that impact was. Excadrill, for example, artificially drove Gliscor's usage WAY up. In all honesty, Gliscor is really not a great wall basically since Excadrill's banning, but it has retained good usage as a carry-over from that golden age. Tornadus-T (which was not broken), directly caused the switch from most Rotom-W being Scarfed, to most Rotom-W being defensive. And that switch is still present today. These are the kinds of lasting impacts I think of when I consider how influential a Pokemon was, not just how much it controlled the entire metagame it was in (although that is a factor).
The lasting impacts to which I just referred are most common in unbanned Pokemon though. I mean, Blaziken brought Slowbro up from the depths of UU to deal with it, and after Blaziken got banned, Slowbro fell back and is now only occasionally used for Terrakion. Blaziken stomped all over the metagame, but its impact was not very lasting. Same for Genesect and Shed Shell Heatran, honestly. Drizzle on the other hand... obviously an impact which has been constant for the entire Gen. That's what I'm talking about.
Icecream summed it up really well IMO:
So we have Blaziken, Excadrill, Genesect, Politoed, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar which have a nearly granted slot, Terrakion or Thundurus-T which are likely to have one too, we fill the gap with another powerful sweeper (Garchomp ? Evasion Clause was changed only for him back in OU. Torn-T ?) and it's the list ? Doesn't seem very interesting.
The legend-- the first (and last) unanimous BAN of any OU suspect test.
Darkrai, Manaphy, Genosect... none of you fools god that.
Get a celebi, or a flying type, or jirachi, or Lati@s..
Techniloom is nowhere near Domination. Spore just happens to be annoyong.
#1 Kyogre
For sharing his skills with Politoed.
#2 Arceus
For not being in OU. I think the fact that Arceus isn't in OU is pretty metagame defining for OU.
Ok the real list.
#1 Politoed
Obvious weather starter is obvious.
#2 Ferrothorn
Along with Jirachi, Ferrothorn justified ridiculously powerful dragons being able to sit in OU. So many things have to run HP Fire for this guy and Scizor when they would really like to run HP Ice. Able to make set up sweepers cry with Thunder Wave or Leech Seed+Protect that think they can set up on Ferrothorn. Can check entire rain teams. Has a gazillion awesome resistances and great stats for what it does. It holds high in usage in a heavy offense metagame.
#3 Tyranitar
Obvious weather starter is obvious.
#4 Tornadus-T
The era of "just what can switch in on Hurricane anyway?" Tornadus-T was defined the metagame a lot. Jirachi and Rotom started to soar in usage. Stealth Rocks became even more important. And there was even more emphasis on keeping offensive presence on most of your team because most of the time it wasn't worth it to eat a Hurricane with a 30% Confusion rate just to switch something into a Pokemon that outsped everything except fast scarfers and Jolteon.
#5 Excadrill
Along the same lines of Tornadus-T here, Excadrill made you want to carry Pokemon with offensive presence and bulk to not allow it to set up or score free KOs. However, Politoed, Gliscor and sometimes Rotom-W, Landorus-I or your own Excadrill were pretty good answers to it. So basically the way to check it was with a rain or sand team... or two mach punchers. So it shaped the meta a lot with all those I mentioned seeing huge usage.
#6 Latios&Dragonite(meh I lumped em together, so what?)
Why does almost every team carry a steel type? OH YEA because Choice Specs Draco Meteor or +1 Outrage will wreck your face. These two dragons in particular were so overwhelming that you basically have to sack 2 Pokemon to deal with them if unprepared. Obviously most people carry something to directly deal with them to avoid that, but that just means that it is because of these guys that Steel types will always be super popular in the face of a fighting attack-filled metagame.
#7 Rotom-W
Sand has been able to be a good choice in the face of rain thanks to this guy. It has basically perfect offensive and defensive synergy with sand teams and threatens rain a lot. It was a big reason why Jolteon got a lot of usage due to Volt Absorb and even got teams to use things such as Gastrodon to halt VoltTurn momentum. Being a check to Excadrill, Tornadus-T and both Landorus forms kept this guy used frequently.
#8 Deoxys-S
You see this lead... oh jeez. Time to prepare like crazy to slow down the sweep they're going to try to start around turn 4 or 5 with some screens and hazard support. It was sort of impossible to stop it from setting up screens because it outsped EVERYTHING and easily only took 50% damage from your attacks. Lol how about Prankster Taunt or Brick Break? :D But yea.. Especially because HO is already easier to ladder with due to the fast playstyle, Deo-S really made it an appealing strategy.
#9 Kingdra
Okletsmakearulethatsortofbanskingdrabutdoesntreallybanitbecausewelikekingdrabutitsoverpoweredifyouputkabutopsandludicoloonthesameteamsasit.
Basically that.
#10 Gliscor
Lol people actually could use stall in BW1. Because. Of. This. Pokemon. SubProtect Poison Heal Gliscor could scout out entire teams while building up residual damage. Even if the opponent had something like Rotom-W out, you could use Protect rather than switching to scout an overprediction with Scarfed Volt Switch for a free sub. Basically power creep happened in BW2 and Landorus-T stole Gliscor's thunder, but its reigning period in BW1 was pretty substantial.
Possible others... Landorus-I, Jirachi, Scizor(I don't really see this as metagame defining so much as easy to slap on any ol' team), Blaziken, Ninetales+Venusaur and Genesect.
For sharing his skills with Politoed.
#2 Arceus
For not being in OU. I think the fact that Arceus isn't in OU is pretty metagame defining for OU.
Ok the real list.
#1 Politoed
Obvious weather starter is obvious.
#2 Ferrothorn
Along with Jirachi, Ferrothorn justified ridiculously powerful dragons being able to sit in OU. So many things have to run HP Fire for this guy and Scizor when they would really like to run HP Ice. Able to make set up sweepers cry with Thunder Wave or Leech Seed+Protect that think they can set up on Ferrothorn. Can check entire rain teams. Has a gazillion awesome resistances and great stats for what it does. It holds high in usage in a heavy offense metagame.
#3 Tyranitar
Obvious weather starter is obvious.
#4 Tornadus-T
The era of "just what can switch in on Hurricane anyway?" Tornadus-T was defined the metagame a lot. Jirachi and Rotom started to soar in usage. Stealth Rocks became even more important. And there was even more emphasis on keeping offensive presence on most of your team because most of the time it wasn't worth it to eat a Hurricane with a 30% Confusion rate just to switch something into a Pokemon that outsped everything except fast scarfers and Jolteon.
#5 Excadrill
Along the same lines of Tornadus-T here, Excadrill made you want to carry Pokemon with offensive presence and bulk to not allow it to set up or score free KOs. However, Politoed, Gliscor and sometimes Rotom-W, Landorus-I or your own Excadrill were pretty good answers to it. So basically the way to check it was with a rain or sand team... or two mach punchers. So it shaped the meta a lot with all those I mentioned seeing huge usage.
#6 Latios&Dragonite(meh I lumped em together, so what?)
Why does almost every team carry a steel type? OH YEA because Choice Specs Draco Meteor or +1 Outrage will wreck your face. These two dragons in particular were so overwhelming that you basically have to sack 2 Pokemon to deal with them if unprepared. Obviously most people carry something to directly deal with them to avoid that, but that just means that it is because of these guys that Steel types will always be super popular in the face of a fighting attack-filled metagame.
#7 Rotom-W
Sand has been able to be a good choice in the face of rain thanks to this guy. It has basically perfect offensive and defensive synergy with sand teams and threatens rain a lot. It was a big reason why Jolteon got a lot of usage due to Volt Absorb and even got teams to use things such as Gastrodon to halt VoltTurn momentum. Being a check to Excadrill, Tornadus-T and both Landorus forms kept this guy used frequently.
#8 Deoxys-S
You see this lead... oh jeez. Time to prepare like crazy to slow down the sweep they're going to try to start around turn 4 or 5 with some screens and hazard support. It was sort of impossible to stop it from setting up screens because it outsped EVERYTHING and easily only took 50% damage from your attacks. Lol how about Prankster Taunt or Brick Break? :D But yea.. Especially because HO is already easier to ladder with due to the fast playstyle, Deo-S really made it an appealing strategy.
#9 Kingdra
Okletsmakearulethatsortofbanskingdrabutdoesntreallybanitbecausewelikekingdrabutitsoverpoweredifyouputkabutopsandludicoloonthesameteamsasit.
Basically that.
#10 Gliscor
Lol people actually could use stall in BW1. Because. Of. This. Pokemon. SubProtect Poison Heal Gliscor could scout out entire teams while building up residual damage. Even if the opponent had something like Rotom-W out, you could use Protect rather than switching to scout an overprediction with Scarfed Volt Switch for a free sub. Basically power creep happened in BW2 and Landorus-T stole Gliscor's thunder, but its reigning period in BW1 was pretty substantial.
Possible others... Landorus-I, Jirachi, Scizor(I don't really see this as metagame defining so much as easy to slap on any ol' team), Blaziken, Ninetales+Venusaur and Genesect.
I feel like Genesect was at least more metagame defining than Tornadus-T. Yeah, I mean, Tornadus-T was certainly a top threat, but not as big as Genesect. First of all, apart from very few exceptions, Tornadus-T was only used on rain teams, whereas Genesect was used on just about any good team at the time. Tornadus-T gave Jirachi some usage, yes. But Genesect gave some Pokemon completely new sets (or rather, ones we never ever see became viable) like Scarf Ninetales and Shed Shell Heatran (to beat GeneDug). Either way, if Tornadus-T makes it on the list but Genesect doesn't, I would be shocked.