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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

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hhjj said:
Does Jolly CB Dugtrio work well in Ubers?
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Jolly CB Dugtrio is really, really hard to switch into anything in the uber metagame, therefore it serves well as a revenge killer. Considering how hard it is for Duggy to KO something in the uber metagame (except Deoxys-A), it's probably certain that Duggy isn't see that much at all.

it DOES however take down Lati@s if they're at low health.
 
Jolly CB will scratch pokemon in the Uber environment. Imo it is a waste slot. It is not hurting anyone hard. Adamant CB may be force but loosing speed means it looses its effectiveness.
 
I'm surprised no one even mention life orbed dugtrio in ubers. It still has plenty of power, but it allows you to use different moves so you don't end up being DD/SD bait.
 
Wow, Giratina-O needs a lot more use. I have been seeing an increase in stall teams lately, and Giratina-O smashes through most of them. The only pokemon seen in stall teams that can stop it are Latias (which practily commits suicide to do so) and that Forretress set Jibaku posted.
 
Wow, Giratina-O needs a lot more use.
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<3 <3 <3

I noticed that when I left ubers for a month Giratina-o went down from #15 to #20. Did I make THAT much of an impact?

I'm frustrated that people would run maximum HP on this thing. At least 10.8% do. And it's even worse if they run max HP and put no Defenses, because Gira-O is one of those few whose minimum defenses total is smaller than its max HP.

Speaking of Gira-O, what set are you running Theorymon (well, SubCM but with what attacks?)?.

Strangely I haven't encountered stall yet, though I definitely saw the Wobba increase.

I've been wanting to try my Screen Forry + Giratina-O. The screen helps Giratina-O beat up Latias without losing half of its health, while Spikes would help it get rid of Groudon with a Pulse after a CM. Gira-O blocks Spin as well, and I've got Wish support to help keep it alive...hopefully. Never really got the duo to work because I haven't ran into a situation that calls for it; I have the tendency to send Gira-O really late into the game so that's probably why.
 
Jibaku said:
<3 <3 <3

I noticed that when I left ubers for a month Giratina-o went down from #15 to #20. Did I make THAT much of an impact?

I'm frustrated that people would run maximum HP on this thing. At least 10.8% do. And it's even worse if they run max HP and put no Defenses, because Gira-O is one of those few whose minimum defenses total is smaller than its max HP.

Speaking of Gira-O, what set are you running Theorymon (well, SubCM but with what attacks?)?.

Strangely I haven't encountered stall yet, though I definitely saw the Wobba increase.

I've been wanting to try my Screen Forry + Giratina-O. The screen helps Giratina-O beat up Latias without losing half of its health, while Spikes would help it get rid of Groudon with a Pulse after a CM. Gira-O blocks Spin as well, and I've got Wish support to help keep it alive...hopefully. Never really got the duo to work because I haven't ran into a situation that calls for it; I have the tendency to send Gira-O really late into the game so that's probably why.
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I using Shadow ball and Dragon pulse, as I have other ways to beat Tyranitar and Kyogre. I'm really surprised about the maximum hp thing too, as since Giratina-O doesn't get any form of recovery, I would think that people would want to take minimum damage from Stealth Rock. I have noticed that a combonation of Wobbuffet + Giratina-O wrecks most stall teams I encounter, as Wobbuffet has no problmes setting up Giratina-O against something like Lugia.

As strange as it might sound, Thunder Wave Giratina-O has been working very well against offensive teams, as many people switch in Scarf Dialga, Darkrai, and Kyogre into me for some reason. Crippling thoes threats (especialy Scarf Dialga) can leave many teams open to Lucario sweeps!
 
I've always loved the uber metagame and am really glad you made this thread, cause ubers really do need more love.

Ironically for me it's backwards, I need to learn more about OU, because today I just had my first OU match on DP netbattle.

Edit: I didn't have time to read all the previous post cause there was a lot of them and it was late, but I certainly disagree with some of the previous posts about there not being much variaty in ubers.

There are tons of sets that these ubers can have, and the more common they get the more the other sets evolve to counter the other sets. I could get more in depth into this but it's late but I still totally disagree about the variety issue that some of the earlier posters mentioned about kyogre/palkia/darkrai

I've personally have used all three but have found myself ditching them for other better countering options. So to say to me that those sets dominate the metagame just sounds ridiculous.
 
.:Void:. said:
What all are some good leads for the Uber metagame?
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Well according to Doug's handy metagame stats, some of the most used leads are:
  1. Deoxys-E
  2. Darkrai
  3. Kyogre
  4. Deoxys-F
  5. Groudon
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Most common starter by just 87 uses is Deoxys-E. Most commonly the spiker set, this lead is designed to outspeed and set up stealth rocks and/or spikes, then die. Commonly equipped with a Focus Sash, Deo-E carries Taunt to prevent other teams from setting up and due to its speed and decent durability, it can easily get one or two layers up (25% free damage to standard, grounded pokes).

Counter Leads:
  • Scarf Darkrai can outspeed and send to sleep, negating the effects of Focus Sash and preventing Deo-E from setting up anything at all.
  • Tyranitar can Crunch Deo-E, while the raging sandstorm will deal with the Focus Sash. Allows one layer of spikes up; however, beware of variants that carry Superpower.
  • Scizor can use Pursuit+Bullet Punch, again only letting down one layer of spikes.
  • Scarf Mewtwo can outspeed and 2HKO (one turn to break the sash), leaving only one layer of entry hazards to deal with.
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Placed at number 2 is Darkrai. Currently the most popular set is the Choice Scarf set; capable of delivering the fastest sleep in the game. With 80% accuracy, it is quite deadly. Defeats the aforementioned, most popular lead in Ubers while dealing with anything not packing Lum or Chesto.

Counter Leads:
  • As mentioned earlier, Lum or Chesto Berry will practically net you a free turn as you absorb the initial Dark Void.
  • SleepTalk leads are also useful; particuarlly Kyogre who has the bulk to take a Dark Pulse
  • ScarfMewtwo can outspeed and OHKO with Focus Blast
  • Lum/Chesto Scizor and SpDef Tyranitar can OHKO (and take a Focus Blast) with U-Turn/Superpower respectively.
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Kyogre sits at number 3. Unlike the previous two, Kyogre just packs immense power with Specs Water Spout (currently, 50% of Kyogres are specs'd). Scarf sets can also be potent and surprising.

Counter Leads:
  • Darkrai can send it to sleep, while Deo-E will still be able to lay down 2 layers of entry hazards.
  • Groudon leads are generally slower and can cut Kyogre's power with Drought. However, they will be forced to switch or face a potential OHKO Ice Beam.
  • Dialga can take a hit, while retaliating with either Draco Meteor or Thunder. Can also setup Stealth Rocks or just paralyze Kyogre with T-wave.
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Deoxys-F, another offensive lead. Due to its immense frailties, it is almost impossible to switch in; hence, its popularity as a lead-off poke. With an excellent movepool and great coverage, Deo-F can threaten a helluva lot of the Uber Metagame, capable of outspeeding and OHKOing EVERY other lead. Also capable of running Taunt/SR in a similiar vein to Deo-E.

Counter Leads:
  • If Deo-F is lacking HP Fire, Scizor can pursuit+bullet punch for an easy OHKO (after breaking a sash of course)
  • If Deo-F lacks extremespeed, Focus Sash Deo-E will be able to lay down 2 layers of spikes.
  • ScarfDarkrai can outspeed and send it to sleep, nulling Focus Sash.
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Groudon rounds down the list of Uber Leads by packing SR, Drought, Thunder Wave and a good measure of bulk. SR is a standard move, as potent in OU as it is in Ubers. Drought provides a good measure VS Kyogre Leads, while T-wave in conjuction with Lum Berry, will let you handle Darkrai. EQ is good for handling slightly less common leads such as Dialga, Tyranitar and Scizor.

Counter Leads:
  • Deo-E will still set up 2 layers of Spikes.
  • Kyogre will more than likely force you out first turn.
  • Deo-F will likely be able to OHKO if it is carring Grass Knot.
Hope that helps.
 
Train Man said:

Groudon rounds down the list of Uber Leads by packing SR, Drought, Thunder Wave and a good measure of bulk. SR is a standard move, as potent in OU as it is in Ubers. Drought provides a good measure VS Kyogre Leads, while T-wave in conjuction with Lum Berry, will let you handle Darkrai. EQ is good for handling slightly less common leads such as Dialga, Tyranitar and Scizor.

Counter Leads:
  • Deo-E will still set up 2 layers of Spikes.
  • Kyogre will more than likely force you out first turn.
  • Deo-F will likely be able to OHKO if it is carring Grass Knot.
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Actually, there is an EV spread that allows Groudon to survive these leads' attacks. it is Careful 252hp/60 attack/12 defense/176 special defense/8 speed. The EVs let it take 80% max form a maximum neutral natured Deo-F Grass Knot, and 72% max from a timid Scarf Ogre, letting you lay down Stealth Rock against these two.
 
while T-wave in conjuction with Lum Berry, will let you handle Darkrai
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I disagree. Should Darkrai have Trick, it will Trick away at Groudon's Lum Berry. When Groudon Thunder Waves, the Lum Berry will heal Darkrai, and now Groudon's locked into it.
 
I'd say so, but according to the statistics
| Groudon | Item | Lum Berry | 14.2 |
| Groudon | Item | Other (4) | < 4.2 |
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The other could've been Chesto Berry, or Choice Band. I'm pretty sure certain people have used CB Groudon in this month because it's a pretty deadly set, but then again I haven't ubered at all in February. Last time I saw a CBDon was from Train Man...

My question is
Is there a reason to use Lum Berry over Chesto Berry? Something I'm missing? Like absorbing Will-o-Wisps or something (lol WoW Darkrai, if any). Chesto Berry is clearly better if your sole purpose is to absorb Dark Void.
 
I ran Lum Groudon lead, and the reason that I ran it was because if I wasn't absorbing Sleep from Darkrai turn one, I generally wouldn't be absorbing it at all. It was not like I needed to "reserve" it for absorbing only sleep at any time, in fact, quite the contrary. I found Lum most useful for absorbing Will-o-Wisp from things like Physically Defensive Mewtwo, and other such Pokemon.

If I wanted to absorb Sleep from Darkrai later in the game, I would always have to sacrifice something to sleep anyway. I cannot switch Groudon in, as I will wake on the switch in, and then be slept anyway. I cannot sacrifice something and then take the sleep, obviously, as that other thing will be slept and I will have no need for the Lum Berry with regards to Sleep there, due to Sleep Clause.
 
Interesting use of Lum Berry Groudon

But I was referring to Paltheos' uber analysis which stated that Groudon became a common lead to stop Darkrai leads. Since none are Chestoed (or it could be the <4.2%), it implies that people run Lum Berry Groudon mainly to stop Darkrai leads, which is dangerous IMO. The potential Trick can really destroy Groudon, as Groudon isn't fast enough to take advantage of the Scarf unless you EV it to do so, something which I don't think many people do. At least if you use Chesto over Lum, you'd still cripple it with Thunder Wave, putting the match slightly in Groudon's favor
 
I started to test another water absorber, which may be quite usefull in Ubers tier. In other words Vaporeon.

112 HP Rayquaza - 85% to 101% from Ice Beam without any SpA EVs

252 HP/60 SpD Groudon - 37% - 44% from Ice Beam with any SpA EVs

Kyogre Timid Specs Thunder 70% - 82% on Vappy

Scarf Kyogre doesn't 2OHKo Vaporeon with Thunder

And Specs Palkia/Dialga can't 2OHKO with Timid Nature by Draco Meteor counting Special Defence drop (With Modest your chances to survive two hits are quite low unfortunately).

ScarfPalkias Spacial Rend 19-23%. Vaporeon walls any Palkia without Thunder and still it doesn't 2OHKO with Thunder without boost and non-boosting nature.

Vaporeon 252 HP/252 SpD/6 Def -- Calm Nature -- Leftovers
~ Toxic
~ Roar
~ Wish
~ Ice Beam / Protect

In other words Wish passing Vaporeon for Ubers tier. Unfortunately max/max is neccesary to avoid 2OHKO by Thunder from Palkia or Kyogre from Max SpA sets and no boosting nature, so sorry for not so original EVs. It also survives Kyogre's Specs Thunder, which is quite impressive and can handle one Thunder from CM Kyogre and poison/phaze it. Not having Ice Beam makes you really vulnarable against Taunt users and Steel types, but Protect helps you in some prediction and Wish healing, which may be important for you. Roar for phazing and with that defences Vaporeon can take many special hits more then well enough. Without any investment to Special Attack, 112 HP Rayquaza is OHKoed by Ice Beam and Support Groudon is 3OHKOed, which isn't bad result. I think that some moves may be replaced, but that combination worked for me quite well in that few matches. But still need to test it a bit more. Any comments ?
 
Protect is a must on this set. Otherwise you have no reliable form of recovery, and no effective way of stalling out your opponent to accumalate Toxic damage and Leftovers recovery. Ice Beam / Roar should be sashed together instead of Ice Beam / Protect

Problem is that both Ice Beam and Roar have little use on this set. Jolly LO Rayquaza Outrage will always OHKO with SR in play, and supporting Groudon will always 2HKO with Earthquake. Roar is only good in conjuction with entry hazards (and more than just Stealth Rock). Many pokemon that come out by Roar will scare off Vaporeon - Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga with Thunder, Palkia, Giratina (who poses a WoW threat and Rest means Vaporeon will never win), Mewtwo, and so forth. Ice Beam's damage is pitiful, and it will almost never be used. I can only see this Vaporeon working on Stall teams and in conjuction with Spikes. Ice Beam will not do anything to stop Bulk-up Dialga, Forretress and anything with Substitute from taking advantage of Vaporeon.


The main reason that I wouldn't use your set is that Latias does this better. It can know exactly the same moves but with superior stats and movepool. She can already take Specs Water Spout, and she takes Thunder much better. Her speed and SpA are significantly better, meaning she can actually threaten other pokemon with Dragon Pulse. And finally, everyone would suspect Vaporeon would have Wish + Protect, whilst they won't with Latias.
 
Bringing up SDLuke again, this thing is a fucking beast if used with Wobbuffet, with one Swords Dance he can completely sweep teams with Crunch (OHKOs Wobbuffet), Close Combat (Which OHKOs Groudon), and Extremespeed (OHKOs Palkia).


He is such a severely underrated threat by a lot of people who are just jumping into the ubers tier.


And my new favorite pokemon is Shiftry because he also sweeps teams in sub with Wobbuffet support. Honestly, the ammount of teams that have a tough time with Shiftry is very suprising to me.
 
KD24 said:
Bringing up SDLuke again, this thing is a fucking beast if used with Wobbuffet, with one Swords Dance he can completely sweep teams with Crunch (OHKOs Wobbuffet), Close Combat (Which OHKOs Groudon), and Extremespeed (OHKOs Palkia).


He is such a severely underrated threat by a lot of people who are just jumping into the ubers tier.


And my new favorite pokemon is Shiftry because he also sweeps teams in sub with Wobbuffet support. Honestly, the ammount of teams that have a tough time with Shiftry is very suprising to me.
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In fact, Wobbuffet in general opens the door for a lot of Pokemon in Ubers. Since Wobbuffet basicly means one turn of free set up, Lucario, Shiftery and someone I have been using lately, Kabutops can sweep unprepared teams.

Kabutops needs some more love IMO, after a SD and swift swim, It can really wreck some teams
 
Swords Dance he can completely sweep teams with Crunch (OHKOs Wobbuffet), Close Combat (Which OHKOs Groudon), and Extremespeed (OHKOs Palkia).
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SD LO CC from Adamant Luc won't OHKO Groudon as far as I'm concerned (well, 404 HP / 350 Def and you survive it anyways), and if Palkia can survive SD LO ES from Jolly Ray what gets Lucario the OHKO?

SDed LO ES has a 3/16 chance of OHKOing Hasty Palkia after SR
 
Jibaku said:
SD LO CC from Adamant Luc won't OHKO Groudon as far as I'm concerned (well, 404 HP / 350 Def and you survive it anyways), and if Palkia can survive SD LO ES from Jolly Ray what gets Lucario the OHKO?

SDed LO ES has a 3/16 chance of OHKOing Hasty Palkia after SR
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Thats because most people who use Lucario have Spikes and SR on their side, so these threats do not survive. Palkia can still survive anyways though, but Groudon is killed with SR+Spikes.
 
KD24 said:
Bringing up SDLuke again, this thing is a fucking beast if used with Wobbuffet, with one Swords Dance he can completely sweep teams with Crunch (OHKOs Wobbuffet), Close Combat (Which OHKOs Groudon), and Extremespeed (OHKOs Palkia).


He is such a severely underrated threat by a lot of people who are just jumping into the ubers tier.


And my new favorite pokemon is Shiftry because he also sweeps teams in sub with Wobbuffet support. Honestly, the ammount of teams that have a tough time with Shiftry is very suprising to me.
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So its safe to say that those 2 are nothing without Wobbuffet support?

Theorymon said:
In fact, Wobbuffet in general opens the door for a lot of Pokemon in Ubers. Since Wobbuffet basicly means one turn of free set up, Lucario, Shiftery and someone I have been using lately, Kabutops can sweep unprepared teams.

Kabutops needs some more love IMO, after a SD and swift swim, It can really wreck some teams
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Of course, I expected nothing less. Seriously, have you ever made a team w/o Wobbuffet? Most of these things ur naming are completely irrelevant w/o Wobbuffet

As for Kabutops, Groudon/Rayquaza, nuff said.

Theorymon said:
Thats because most people who use Lucario have Spikes and SR on their side, so these threats do not survive. Palkia can still survive anyways though, but Groudon is killed with SR+Spikes.
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Yea all 3 of them. SR + Spikes, how original.

Basically my stance on Wobbuffet is: Its OK if you think the ends justify the means. Otherwise, what kind of accomplishment is it when you beat someone because they got gaid by Wobbuffet?

Wobbuffet is uncounterable as you cant switch out of it, and probably takes the least skill to use out of all Pokemon involved.

Before you bring up the Kyogre comment again, Kyogre is just fine because it has some set counters (Palkia, Latias) And you actually have to think about the consequences of Surfing(like not getting set up on by Rayquaza) Ice Beaming(forced out by steel type, or worse, have Wobb come out) Thunder(lol where to begin) CM(no immediate drawback but you lose a moveslot)

What drawback is there to Wobbuffet? Very few things can OHKO it without prior setup, if you try to setup you get Encored, and the things that can KO it quickly, if I put 6 of them on a team, it would just be a team of 6 Pokemon that beat Wobb with 0 cohesion. In fact, I dont even there are 6 Pokemon who can KO Wobb w/o stat ups

Ive said it before, how Wobbuffet works is the following:

1. If its against a physical attacker, use Counter
2. If its against a special attacker, use Mirror Coat
3. If you cant outsmart ur opponent, go the "easy" way out and Encore.
4. If its against a nonattacker, use Encore => Safeguard/Tickle

This is practically in the analysis.

Every Wobbuffet situation plays out one of those ways, and 1 and 2 are basically the same, so how much decision making skills does it really take?
 
What the heck? Only after a few matches I went from zero to top 15? Is the metagame really THAT underplayed?

Wobbuffet is actually not as simple as you think, antonio. I played a bit of Wobbs and I tell you the whole time it's there it's a prediction war. It's not exactly enjoyable (especially since I hate Wobb after Theorymon's supersecret Wobb owned me in PBR Randoms lol, back before I never even knew him), and it severely restricts your option, but it's not that bad. While Wobb is amazingly sturdy (it survived a +2 Surf from my Kyogre...), it's not death, just the most annoying Pokemon in the game. I noticed that people like to Encore first on things like Groudon. Throw an Earthquake. It won't 2HKO Wobb, but it will weaken it, and two shots should put it in critical health.

I'm finding this metagame to be quite enjoyable to be honest. Despite me hating to fight Wobb, versatility has notably increased since I last played. I saw a weird Light Screen/Taunt/WoW/Roost Mew for some reason. The current metagame is much different than the Deo-S lead/SpecsOgre/PolishDon we used to know and love.

For some reason people send in Rayquaza against Kyogre. I feel as if I must laugh, but then again would you expect a bulky CM Kyogre to be carrying Ice Beam instead of Sleep Talk?

But honestly I haven't seen any stall teams. Closest was someone with Abomasnow, Starmie, Skarmory, Mew (with weird set), Blissey and something else I can't remember.

Wobb alone has significantly impacted the metagame. Where it can be seen as good or bad is really a person's own opinion. I stand neutral on this subject.

Forretress is very good in this metagame. The diversification opens up more room to set up on. Tauntless Skarmories, Blisseys, Giratinas (which has been appearing a lot more lately, with WoW/DClaw set), Lugias (only saw one), to things like Specs Ice Beam (from Kyogre; it does like 28% or so and you should get two Spikes at least and swap out), Scarf Spacial Rend, etc.

EDIT: Now in the top 10
EDIT: Well, was until I got haxed
EDIT: Not in the top 15 anymore due to hax in three matches
 
xxflyingsolo07xx said:
So its safe to say that those 2 are nothing without Wobbuffet support?
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Nobody said Lucario was useless without Wobbuffet, your making an assumption it seems. They are saying it's much better than usual with Wobbuffet support.

xxflyingsolo07xx said:
Of course, I expected nothing less. Seriously, have you ever made a team w/o Wobbuffet? Most of these things ur naming are completely irrelevant w/o Wobbuffet

As for Kabutops, Groudon/Rayquaza, nuff said.
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First of all, why should it matter if Theorymon has never made a team without Wobbuffet? Are Shiftry and Kabutops useless in Ubers without Wobbuffet? Not necessarily, your ignoring Swift Swim and Chlorophyll. Shiftry does upwards of 90% damage to 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo with a Modest Life Orb Dark Pulse. Oh, and by the way, 66% of Mewtwo ran no HP, and 91% ran no Special Defense EVs in February. Shiftry easily OHKOes 4 HP / 0 SpD Groudon with Life Orb Grass Knot (even Timid versions OHKO if you want to outspeed Adamant Groudon). Outspeeds after the Rock Polish too.

Heck, it even gets Sucker Punch if you want to run physical or mixed, it even learns Swords Dance if your up for a bit of a challenge. By the way, a 0 EV neutral natured Shiftry does 89.40% - 105.30% to 4 HP / 0 Def Latios with a Life Orb Sucker Punch, let alone with bucketloads of EVs...so if your going to say they're "useless without Wobbuffet", please back it up.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to reply to the rest. I might get round to it within the next couple of days.

Jibaku, I agree. I am currently loving the metagame. Giratina-O is becoming more and more popular, which is cool.
 
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