The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[Matthew]

So play around it.

 

[never_again]

So play around it.

Yea thats the thing, you can play around Stall but not around Wobbuffet
because whatevers in right now has to stay in
and thats gay as hell.

Plus, Wobbuffet is counterless, which i think is enough to warrant a ban. I mean, there were certainly stuff in OU that can KO it, but it still got banned.

Why cant it be the same for Ubers?

 

[Theorymon]

Using your logic Flying Solo, Kyogre is the "gayest" pokemon of all! Choice Specs Kyogre is so freakishly powerful with Water Spout that people have resorted to using UU water absorbers like Parasect, Toxicroak, and even Quagsire just to switch in to its Water Spout! Not to mention that other Kyogre Varients can fuck them over too. Kyogre also supports the team with rain, which makes pokemon like Palkia even more dangerous than usaual (Scarf Palkia often 2HKOs Wobbuffet in the rain, by the way) The fact that that many people have to often deidcate a pokemon just for a specifc move of the Choice Specs set (that can be fucked over by Kyogre's other sets) makes me think that Kyogre is way more broken than anything else in ubers. Thus, Kyogre should be the "gayest" Pokemon of all time on your list, Flying Solo.

Lets end the pointless arguing, its getting this thread nowhere.

 

[Matthew]

So Theorymon brought something to my attention just now, and I think it is a great idea. Every week or so (until July) we should hold an Ubers tournament that features Arceus. We will collect the data on Arceus used and then see how it will effect the Ubers game. If no one has any objections I would be more than happy to set up a time for this to take place, and I will also collect the data on Arceus (by PM's).

 

[never_again]

Using your logic Flying Solo, Kyogre is the "gayest" pokemon of all! Choice Specs Kyogre is so freakishly powerful with Water Spout that people have resorted to using UU water absorbers like Parasect, Toxicroak, and even Quagsire just to switch in to its Water Spout! Not to mention that other Kyogre Varients can fuck them over too. Kyogre also supports the team with rain, which makes pokemon like Palkia even more dangerous than usaual (Scarf Palkia often 2HKOs Wobbuffet in the rain, by the way) The fact that that many people have to often deidcate a pokemon just for a specifc move of the Choice Specs set (that can be fucked over by Kyogre's other sets) makes me think that Kyogre is way more broken than anything else in ubers. Thus, Kyogre should be the "gayest" Pokemon of all time on your list, Flying Solo.

Lets end the pointless arguing, its getting this thread nowhere.

Lol pointless arguing? You just dont want to admit that your wrong.

You just dont get it do you, Kyogre isnt gay or cheap, its just a bit overpowered.


But, the main thing is, you can SWITCH into Kyogre. WTF can you do about Wobbuffet? And no one had to use Toxicroak or w/e, Latias and Palkia are just fine. Or just make ur entire team faster than it! Its not gonna do shit if ur faster and you weaken Spout, then beat the rest of its moves with resist.



More importantly, SpecsOgre actually takes some prediction skill, beyond Wobbuffet's gay ass "Against Mewtwo, ill Mirror Coat, against Groudon, I'll counter, and if my opponent is too good for me, I'll just use Encore."

Specs Ogre cant just spam Water Spout, it has to think about stuff like Rayquaza coming in and setting up if its Spout is weakened enough, while Wobbuffet has like no consequences, and a 4 year old that can point a mouse cna figure out how to use it.

 

[muna]

Wobbuffet is not anywhere near impossible to defeat. Anything that can raise it's stats or can use toxic/leech seed can destroy it along with several very strong Pokemon. The fact that it was OU for several months should be enough of an indication that it isn't game breaking. Any good player should be able to use another Pokemon in place of Wobbuffet more effectively.

Arcreus on the other hand, is completely overpowered. 120 base stats all around is absolutely absurd and would completely break the uber tier open and unbalance it more than it already is.

 

[Theorymon]

I think Arceus might actually decentralize Ubers a bit. This is becasue it is insanely versataile thanks to Multitype, its 120 base stats, and its huge movepool. While Arceus will likely be on almost every team, Many times, it won't be the same Arceus. There are already 10 sets on the strategy pokedex, and posters like Jibaku have posted viable sets like this. Thus, Arceus could really diversfy the Metagame because it is really many Pokemon in one! This is why I think we should organize a time to challenge each other to battles with Arceus allowed, it is going to cause a huge shift in the Uber Metagame!

 

[never_again]

Wobbuffet is not anywhere near impossible to defeat. Anything that can raise it's stats or can use toxic/leech seed can destroy it along with several very strong Pokemon. The fact that it was OU for several months should be enough of an indication that it isn't game breaking. Any good player should be able to use another Pokemon in place of Wobbuffet more effectively.

Arcreus on the other hand, is completely overpowered. 120 base stats all around is absolutely absurd and would completely break the uber tier open and unbalance it more than it already is.

Its not impossible to beat but it makes the Pokemon that were previously usable, now unusable just because of some fat piece of shit that bad kids use.

Like: Mewtwo/Palkia(scarf and other variants)/Dialga(scarf/others)
Scizor, Metagross

Anything except SD Don
DD Rayquaza
NP Darkrai
SpecsOgre
maybe Tyranitar

now stuff like SD Don and NP Darkrai, were almost nonexistent but now because of Wobbuffet they're pretty much the only sets usable without being gayed to death by Wobb

Have a Nice Day(seriously, not hipmonlee's sig)

I think Arceus might actually decentralize Ubers a bit. This is becasue it is insanely versataile thanks to Multitype, its 120 base stats, and its huge movepool. While Arceus will likely be on almost every team, Many times, it won't be the same Arceus. There are already 10 sets on the strategy pokedex, and posters like Jibaku have posted viable sets like this. Thus, Arceus could really diversfy the Metagame because it is really many Pokemon in one! This is why I think we should organize a time to challenge each other to battles with Arceus allowed, it is going to cause a huge shift in the Uber Metagame!

Before I go, Id like to say Theorymon is wrong, again.

He hasnt played when Arceus was allowed, where 9 out of every 10 sets were SD Arceus w/ Xspeed, Recover, and either EQ or Dragon Claw.

Giratina was everywhere, and if they got past ur Giratina its usually GG.
So dont bring up that it decentralizes the metagame because that doesnt really mean anything, and the fact that it has 10 sets doesnt mean shit either.

Kyogre has a CB set, God help whoever came up with that, but its never used.
Who knows Theorymon, perhaps you think something like Specs Groudon with Eruption will become the thing to use in ur world, but w/e.

Now, Have a nice Day.

 

[Matthew]

Guys, quit this subject right now. It is mindless bantering back and forth that won't actually do anything as we will never have a tier above Ubers in the see able future.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Ubers is a ban list, I used to believe that Mew was broken, but now I see how silly of a thought it really was.

Ha, so you now realize how wrong you were when you made negative comments about me when I used BP Mew?

 

[Theorymon]

Why exactly is Specs Dialga so rare? Its Draco Meteors are very powerful, almost nothing bar Blissey and defensive steels can safely switch into it, and the steels die to Fire Blast. Plus, it has a handy SR resist so Dialga doesn't have a hard time switching back and forth.

 

[twash]

-Yea I understand Its a banlist, but Im saying it should be more than a banlist for OU

Or at the very least, there should be a banlist for Ubers too.

Why? Because something is too "broken"? It's there because it's too good for OU not the fact that it plays well in Ubers. You don't ban things from a banlist because they are too good.

-And the fact that Wobb makes it easier to break walls proves my point. You could either break it with skill and outplay ur opponent's stall team, or you could use Wobbuffet.

Yes, which is why it's in Ubers. Congratulations.

-You also brought up a great point where everything has a check except Arceus, and whats gonna happen when it comes out, when there is still no Uber Banlist?

There will never be an Uber banlist. You seem to be in the mentality that there will be, but there won't. Again, it's not designed as a metagame. It's like say, BL. You don't ban things from BL to OU because they are too good for BL, because BL is a banlist.

-Yea, Ill give Theorymon some credit on using stuff like Toxicroak and Heracross, but Wobbuffet was a mistake and has to go.

-Because, you're also forgetting another ability of Wobbuffets', other than breaking walls and setting up stuff(which, is quite gay)

Its the ultimate revenger. It makes stuff like Scarf Dialga and Palkia a strict one-time use. So if you rely on either to beat something like SD/DD Rayquaza, and they "gay" it to death with Wobbuffet, then its pretty much gg. So what Wobbuffet makes you do is to carry at least 2 checks to almost every threat, especially Rayquaza.

So? "Dialga is the ultimate Bulk Up user", does that mean we ban it? No, first of all because that isn't good reasoning, and second of all there is nowhere to ban it to because Ubers is the ban list. It isn't "gg" if they "gay it to death with Wobbuffet", that's a completely stupid point as teams carry 6 Pokémon not 2. And many teams will find ways around it.

And we all know how impossible that is with 6 Pokemon.

-So yea, making it easier to break walls, "on its own," isnt a bad thing, but
I think anyone could see that people who resort to Wobbuffet to break walls is clearly something else.

Evidently I don't see that it is clearly something else. What I do say is that it has a good ability to break walls. Anyone who things otherwise is just ignoring one of the main features of Wobbuffet. Does this mean Magnezone would be "broken" if Skarmory didn't carry Shed Shell? Of course not.

I wouldnt be so mad over it if all it could do was break walls because I never use them anyway. However, it renders every sort of offense besides the aforementioned NP Darkrai, Specs Ogre, and the ridiculous SD Rayquaza Outrage which is just plain suicide, useless.
Plus it has encore, which makes something that would normally be hard to do, such as getting an oppurtunity for Rayquaza to use Swords Dance, an incredibly easy and skill-less task.

Yes it becomes much, much easier for Rayquaza to Swords Dance if Wobbuffet predicts something, Encores and switches. But isn't it just as easy to come in and lure out CB Groudon with Dialga and then get a "free" Swords Dance with Rayquaza on the switch? If Rayquaza is so amazingly broken ("ridiculous SD Rayquaza Outrage" made me chuckle), that would be the Pokémon being banned. But, it isn't ridiculous, because this is Ubers, the banlist where all the "best" Pokémon go.

 

[umbarsc]

There will never be an Uber banlist.

Why not? What if, say, an Arceus evo was released, with 150 Base stats across the board and the ability to hold items and still be whatever type it wants? Ubers would no longer be enjoyable to play, and that is the sole reason we play Pokemon. For enjoyment. Sure, ubers is intended to be a banlist, but people happen to also find it fun to play. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ban a Pokemon that's much too powerful for ubers (not like, say, Kyogre that is powerful but still somewhat managable), but that's purely hypothetical at this point, because only Arceus or Mew comes even close to that level.

It's not as if "don't ban Pokemon from ubers" is one of the ten commandments. At the very least, if a Pokemon becomes too broken for ubers we can have a "Limited Ubers" clause or something (whether this would be implemented on the ladder is another debate).

By the way, yes, I understand how the tiers work, so you don't need to reply with some condescending speech explaining everything nice and neat. I know how they currently work, and it's fine at the moment, but I don't think that's how it necessarily should always work.

 

[Jibaku]

THe only way an uber banlist will happen is if a new Pokemon is added that is significantly more powerful than what we have now, because at that moment the metagame will no longer be enjoyable and banning it would sharply decrease centralization, even if the end result is still centralizing. So don't just say "ubers is a banlist", because while it is right now, other factors in the future can change that. I mean, would you like RBY Mewtwo in this current metagame (with Amnesia boosting SA and SD)?

Wobbuffet is no way "broken". Yes, it's really annoying. Yes, I hate facing Wobbs more than anything else, but while it traps and kills/sets up, it has notable weaknesses too. You can play around Wobb a bit. While I won't get into specifics, there are Pokemon more dangerous than Wobb. Kyogre's a good example.

The last time I played with Arceus, it was a bit centralized. Giratina was everywhere, Latias was everywhere, Blissey was everywhere (more than Kyogre!). However, that was only the birth of the uber metagame. Everyone's using the same set (uhh SD/ES Arceus was by far the most common). Stall was prevalent although I don't know why. The Arceus metagame ended due to its banning just when I started to enjoy using SD Ghost Arceus to break stall. However, this event leads me to believe that when Arceus is unbanned, we will continue where it left off, a metagame progression, and I hugely doubt the metagame will be as stale as it once was. With creative people such as Train Man, Maniaclyrasist (stop playing Brawl and help us >:( ) Theorymon, Gen. Empoleon, and many others who are willing to take risks for great results, I expect the Arceus metagame to be quite diverse, because an Arceus forme will most likely destroy whatever phase the metagame lands on, thus keeping the uber metagame from being locked into one.

But of course this is just theorymon (not you obv).

 

[Crafty Veteran]

My top 3 UU's most effective Ubers:

I just want to throw it our but Jumpluff is effective in Ubers. Very annoying to deal with Sunny Day in play. The double powder is really annoying and leech seed carves the Hp up slowly.

Parasect keeps Kyogre in check mainly which is the #1 uber right now, and it is effective. Outside Kyogre it does "ok" spore is to tempting to most people, and it seems UU's are really effective with status in the Uber environment.

Primeape really does blend in Uber, with the increase of UU I'm seeing which probably carry sleep inducing moves. It does a good job handling Darkai, a simple ScarfPrimeape is effective in the Uber Environment.

These 3 are in no order, but I just found them to be the most effective in the uber environment, if anyone decides to use UU's in Ubers, I highly suggest using these because I found them to be the most effective.

 

[umbarsc]

I think Ludicolo is more effective than Parasect (coming from someone who has never used either in ubers), because Ludicolo is a solid Kyogre switch-in regardless of what move it comes in on, and Ludicolo can also SubSeed effectively, or at least do something to RestTalkers.

 

[Matthew]

I would have to agree with Umbarsc on this one. Ludicolo is much better at coming in than Parasect. But Parasect has the ability to heal off the damage if predicted right, which is one of the main reasons to use Parasect.

 

[-Mind-]

I got the idea from Twash, and it works so well.

Ludicolo with Rain Dish + leech seed+ lefties is huge, maybe someone can try out subseed Colo?, Like Jumpluff only with the bit more extra power. I don't know the Ability, me/you can try both.

 

[faint]

It seems to me that people who use UU's in Ubers find themselves to be cool, when in reality they're not. It doesn't take a genius to realize that UU possesses the largest amount of Pokemon carrying Water Absorb, Dry Skin, or Insomnia. If any of you have ever bothered to read the Guide to Uber Battling found in the articles section, then you would realize it mentions quite a few UU Pokemon as well as OU Pokemon that can work in Ubers.

Anything that can raise it's stats or can use toxic/leech seed can destroy it along with several very strong Pokemon.

What a great idea! Now said Wobbuffet uses Encore, then followed by as many Tickles possible. Then when it finally dies, you bring in something like Scizor. You're free to use any attack, even Pursuit guaranteeing you to kill that Pokemon, due to the fact that they're still locked into an attack such as Toxic. I got this idea from xtreem, so thank you xtreem, and although we had a rough past, I WILL be backing you up throughout this thread.

Going back to the quote how the hell do you raise your stats when something has Encore? To the smart one that posted this you're fucking retarded.

So? "Dialga is the ultimate Bulk Up user", does that mean we ban it?

Obviously not since Groudon beats it 90% of the time, where with Wobbuffet it will only switch in if it's sure it can beat the opposing Pokemon.

I also believe that Arceus should be banned from all tiers. Seriously it's the most broken Pokemon in the game. Nothing can stop it due to it's amazing movepool and ability. Jibaku what the hell do you mean "creative people?" The more creative people get with Arceus just means it will be harder for it to die. Fuck I could run a Swords Dance, Extreemspeed, Draco Meteor, Thunder Arceus and OHKO all of Arceus' counters before they can even touch me, then just sweep with Extreemspeed.

 

[Jibaku]

Jibaku what the hell do you mean "creative people?"

Creating new usable sets that can counter the metagame to keep it moving. Eh who knows? Being defensive also counts if that accomplishes something

You can't deny the staleness of the metagame for the past 6 months (barely anything progressed, and Platinum's release didn't do as much as it would appear). Even if you're playing to win, what motivates you if the same things happen over and over? At least some people are trying to make progress. For example, Theorymon brought/popularized Wobbuffet into the uber metagame, and now it's regarded as a huge threat, while it was very low in usage before his appearance.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Along with the fact that it can viably use great attacks from both ends of the spectrum, the most annoying thing about Arceus is how hard it's going to be to take down with its defenses. I mean, is there any other Pokemon with as beefy defenses as 120/120/120 and not a single 4x weakness?

 

[Theorymon]

One of the main features of Ubers I like is to take advantage of its centralization. Thanks to many of the common Pokemon of ubers being pretty predictable (like Kyogre being speced), its pretty easy to take advantage of in several ways. For example, one could use Sub salac Palkia, as some of the "Palkia revenge killers" like Latias will have trouble beating it once it has 1+speed and attack. Water Absorbers like Quagsire are also a way to take advantage of Ubers centraliztion, as most Kyogres are choiced (plus Quagsire can encore CMers). Also, some non Uber pokemon are much harder to counter in Ubers than usual. For example, Jumpluff can reach 700 speed in the sun, and combined with leech seed, encore, and sleep powder, make Jumpluff a real pain in the ass to deal with. Its most common counter is Forrtress, so its quite easy to wear down offensive teams with it.

This is why I encourge everyone to get "creative" in Ubers. its not because "it's cool" or anything stupid like that. Its because thanks to the centralization of Ubers, less common sets such as Sub CM Kyogre and less common pokemon like Jumpluff can cause a huge amount of chaos in the tier! I think we should try to find more disruptive sets like this, it could really "diversify" Ubers in a lot of people's eyes, plus it would make the Uber Metagame actually go somewhere!

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

One of the main features of Ubers I like is to take advantage of its centralization. Thanks to many of the common Pokemon of ubers being pretty predictable (like Kyogre being speced), its pretty easy to take advantage of in several ways. For example, one could use Calm Mind Kyoge, as a lot of teams best defense vs. Kyogre is Scarf Palkia, who isn't going to like CM Ogre.

As a user of CM Ogre, I have to say I disagree with that statement. 1v1, Palkia's Thunder is gonna beat out Kyogre's Thunder due to Palkia's Speed advantage and the fact that Palkia's thunder hits Kyogre for Super Effective while Kyore's Thunder is just neutral.

Also have to say that Calm Mind Ogre really isn't too great. It has the speed advantage against the other base 90 Speed Ubers due to running Timid, but really, with Ubers hitting as hard as it does, it usually doesn't have the opportunity to Calm Mind up more than once before either being forced into the attack or being forced to switch. The only time it might be useful is against other Calm Minders.

 

[Theorymon]

As a user of CM Ogre, I have to say I disagree with that statement. 1v1, Palkia's Thunder is gonna beat out Kyogre's Thunder due to Palkia's Speed advantage and the fact that Palkia's thunder hits Kyogre for Super Effective while Kyore's Thunder is just neutral.

Yeah, I know. Its just that a lot of people don't know that, so when they see a CM ogre, they panic and switch. That might have not been the best example though, I'll change it.

 

[Zeromus EG]

Been trying this set out in ubers. I know this isn't necessarily a "Post your great uber sets!" thread, but it is a 'mon not often seen in ubers (65 uses last month).

Jolteon @ Choice Scarf
Modest Nature
Volt Absorb Ability
EVs: Hp 90, SpAtk 252, Spd 168
~ Thunder
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
~ Shadow Ball / Sleep Talk
~ Toxic / Sleep Talk

Hits 507 Spd after CS, enough to outspeed max Deoxys-S and most CS Darkrai, unless they go max speed, which isn't often as most go 506 to outspeed Deoxys-S leads. Makes a great counter to Scarf/Specs Thunders that plague the uber tier. Thunder is the only move you should really use, as it's usual 100% accuracy and 120 BP make it very powerful. Hidden Power [Ice] is to catch DD Rayquaza who think that they outspeed you. Shadow Ball only hits Lati@s more than anything else, everything else is hit for more by Thunder/HP (besides Giratina, who will shrug it off anyway). Toxic is filler, but it can be used for walls etc, or Sleep Talk can be used over either of the last 2 to take Dark Void etc.

Damage calculations


Thunder Vs...

Scarf Darkrai 71.43 - 84.01 %
Never an OHKO even with SR, but more than enough damage to seriously hurt him. Bring a priority user and finish him off when he tries to Dark Void again. The Dark Void that you inevitably take can be lessened by using Sleep Talk.

Nasty Plot Darkrai 74.47 - 87.59 %
Only posted this to show the 2.56% OHKO with SR. Switch in on a Nasty Plot and outspeed.

Deoxys-A...
Do I even need to post this? Outspeeds all, even the CS set and OHKO's with Thunder (God even HP [Ice] OHKOs)

220/0 Deoxys Spikes Lead 70.95 - 83.45 %
An easy 2HKO, outspeeding and only allowing SR or 1 layer of Spikes down. If you're really lucky it'll Taunt first turn :)

0/6 Ho-oh 74.79 - 88.39 %
OHKO with SR (isn't anything when you lose 50% on a switch?). Even without SR, 75% on 106/154 defenses is pretty good.

248/252 Ho-oh 49.16 - 57.83 %
Still a 79.49% OHKO chance with SR. This is before a CM.
*If no SR are present and Ho-oh CMs on the Thunder then the second hit is 32.29 - 39.04 %, meaning that it becomes a 3HKO.*

6/0 Kyogre 84.21 - 98.83 %
74.36% OHKO with SR up. Jolteon outspeeds all Scarf or other Kyogre. Jolteon can actually win even if Thunder doesn't OHKO, as long as Kyogre uses Water Spout that turn. The highest % Hp Kyogre can have left is 3.29%. A water Spout from that much does less than 10%, so you can happily KO Kyogre with the 2nd attack.

252/0 Lugia 63.46 - 75.00 %
A 2.56% OHKO chance with SR. Small I know, but if you catch it on the switch it's gg and even if you stay in, all it can do is Whirlwind you out, set up Reflect, Roost (while you finish it next turn even with +50% Hp) or it can Ice Beam. An Ice Beam from the Great Wall set does 22.53 - 26.62 % back, so you're safe.

80/0 Manaphy 106.37 - 125.21 %
A definite OHKO. If you switch in on a Tail Glow then you're fine.

252/36 Mew 46.04 - 54.21 %
100% 2HKO with SR. Mew will hopefully try setting up it's Baton Pass, not Hypnosis you, or you can rely on it's 60% accuracy if it does Hypnosis.

6/0 Mewtwo 59.32 - 69.77 %
A guaranteed 2HKO even without SR. Jolteon outspeeds all but the Scarfed Mewtwo, so you may be able to get a surprise kill.

0/0 Palkia 50.78 - 60.12 %
Again a SR-less 2HKO. Scarf Palkia is still outspeeded too.

176/176 Scizor 58.15 - 68.62 %
A guaranteed 2HKO all the time. Scizor manages 75.77 - 89.42 % back with U-Turn, meaning you can at least get him to half on his way out, or 34.42 - 38.23 % with Bullet Punch, so you can easily 2HKO if it's Banded into BP.


Hidden Power [Ice] Vs...

6/0 Garchomp 94.97 - 112.85 %
OHKO with SR, 66.67% chance without it. We knew this anyway really, but I figured I should post it. Outspeeds even Scarf sets too remember.

252/0 (CB) Groudon 40.59 - 48.02 %
A 3.55% 2HKO with SR.

112/0 (RP) Groudon 44.44 - 52.57 %
80.08% 2HKO with SR. Even after the RP, Jolteon still outspeeds, so when they try to EQ you after the boost, finish them off.
*You can also switch into the Paradancer to take the TW, but as an OHKO is impossible, you'll have to switch out.*

32/8 Rayquaza 90.25 - 106.96 %
An OHKO with SR, or after one turn of LO. After a DD, even Jolly Rayquaza is still outsped, so unless it uses Extremespeed on you, you win.


Shadow Ball Vs...

6/0 Latios 35.10 - 41.72 %
A 3HKO with or without SR. This is obviously too little, made worse if it's a CM set. Latias is even worse so I won't even post it. As this is not so useful, Sleep Talk is probably the better choice here.


Counters
Dialga has an easy time taking any of these attacks and he is immune to Toxic, so he's the number one problem. Thunder hits hardest, but still only manages 25.88 - 30.46 % (4HKO lol) on the mixed attacker set.
Giratina takes between 28.97 - 34.13 % from Shadow Ball, a 4HKO at best. Toxic would do a job on him, but the number that carry ResTalk negates this.
Lati@s have their way with this set too.


I'm going to continue testing this. I could do with another filler over Shadow Ball it seems, as even on Lati@s it's useless.

C&C would be useful cheers. :)