The use of "inaccurate" moves

[never_again]

@flyingsolo: but it also depends on how much certain pokemon are seen. Bronzong is way more rare now than it used to be. Scizor, otoh, is everywhere.

On Salamence, Flamethrower still easily 2HKOs Skarmory, and Fire Blast just OHKOs it, provided you hit. On something like Flygon (and by extension, Garchomp), you need Fire Blast for the 2HKO, I believe, especially if you don't want to invest anything besides a neutral nature.

thats not how you look at it
you dont say

"hmm ill go with flamethrower, but if i ever match up against a bronzong ill probably lose. thankfully, bronzongs arnt that common! I'll only lose 8 percent of the time! or whatever the percentage is for bronzong"

as for 2hkoing skarmory, wouldnt you rather ohko it so it doesnt whirlwind out ur dragon dance

rather than: "ill dent that skarmory pretty hard with flamethrower, itll roar me out and sure my salamence will take another 25% when i bring it back in at which point its useless to me, but at least I taught that skarmory a thing or 2!"

 

[mtr]

Well, it depends. Lucario and Scizor are running rampant, and Heatran is great for its ability to check both of them, and Flamethower does a lot to them. Bronzong is rare at this point, and a team usually has a lot of stuff to deal with it should it arise. For example, the Rotom formes and Gyarados. There is no need to jepoardize Heatran's ability to deal with Scizor and Lucario just for Bronzong.

Now, for a Heatran whose primary goal is damage (Specstran, LOTran), Fire Blast/Overheat are better by far because of greater overall damage output.

As for Flygon/Garchomp: Fire Blast is better.

For Salamence: I would rather see the OHKO on Skarmory.

350 Atk vs 176 Def & 334 HP (95 Base Power): 352 - 416 (105.39% - 124.55%)

But Mixmence gets it anyways with Flamethrower.

DDMence needs Fire Blast, sure, and I recommend it there because the point is damage output. But I wonder, shouldn't your offensive team have ways of dealing with a stall if you use a DDMence?

 

[ThePatriot]

in my opinion the moves with the lower base power are better, but it really depends on the pokemon you have that move on.

 

[Mailman]

Accurate moves the reason:

You lose all the momentum if your move misses and if you want to play consistently you really can't afford to skip a turn.
That's what makes paralysis such a good status to give to your oponent the he wont do anything every 1/4 turns

 

[SoT]

You could lose said momentum if the less powerful move doesn't do enough damage to get the job done to said Pokemon, thus allowing said Pokemon to have an impact on the game.

Personally it's a pick your poison, if you don't do enough then you're fucked, if they miss then you're fucked. I think it really depends on the type of team, most offensive teams rely on counters to be weakened, so going with the choice that does more damage could be a lot useful if it puts a counter into ko range for another team member. However if you're just using a Pokemon to reliably counter a Pokemon without really doing much more, the more accurate attack could be a lot more appealing than the heavy hitting option.

 

[familyguyman]

If you are like me, then playing the percentages is the way to go and therefore, maximizing average damage, over time, is the most efficient and optimal way to go.

If you deal, on average, ~7% more damage (Fire Blast vs Flamethrower) then you will get 7% more KOs, on average, with that move which is a significant factor, especially when it's something like Heatran who, over 100 battles, might use that attack 100 times which is about 7 extra KOs or about a whole victory just from a more damaging move on one pokemon.

I don't know how sound that math is but I think it is correct.

 

[Steven718]

If you are like me, then playing the percentages is the way to go and therefore, maximizing average damage, over time, is the most efficient and optimal way to go.

If you deal, on average, ~7% more damage (Fire Blast vs Flamethrower) then you will get 7% more KOs, on average, with that move which is a significant factor, especially when it's something like Heatran who, over 100 battles, might use that attack 100 times which is about 7 extra KOs or about a whole victory just from a more damaging move on one pokemon.

I don't know how sound that math is but I think it is correct.

This calculation is WRONG and only works in a situation in which your opponent is not KO'd by flamethrower. Not only that, 7% more damage does not equal 7% more KOs.

 

[Mr. 616]

Frankly the whole arguement can go both ways. More accurate attacks are realiable vs. inaccurate moves. Frankly it depends on the tiers. In Uber almost everybody is using Thunder because of Drizzle. However that cant be said for the OU. I think more accurate attacks should be used more often especially since Stealth Rock is heavily used.

 

[husk]

Accurate moves do predictable damage...you can build a long-term game plans around strategies involving accurate moves and expect them to work. They help take the thinking involved to a higher level. It's like adding a new weapon to your mental arsenal. If you use an inaccurate move...no matter how hard you thought about an idea or how brilliant it was, you might just miss anyway. As soon as you add in an inaccurate move like fire blast you have a 15% of your strategy failing. Two fire blasts? 28%. Of course the fact that your idea failed doesn't mean you've lost the game...but it also means you didn't get a certain win either.

 

[familyguyman]

This calculation is WRONG and only works in a situation in which your opponent is not KO'd by flamethrower. Not only that, 7% more damage does not equal 7% more KOs.

Well yes, of course it works only when the opponent isn't KO'd by Flamethrower, that is the point of a more damaging move in the first place.

Also, why doesn't 7% more damage = 7% more KOs? Anyone taking an average of 93-94% now dies instead of living. Of course when we are talking about damaging switch ins who might resist the attack or are Blissey, that 7% extra damage might only be 2-4% of actual damage. However, with Stealth Rocks and other hazards, an enemy with 50% health switching into Heatran (Gyarados, Salamence) will be losing ~5-10% of their HP with 2-4% damage which is a huge deal.

Regardless of all of those situations, it's more damage on average and hence, the better option long term.


Note: I use Heatran a lot since he is a perfect example.

 

[Steven718]

Well yes, of course it works only when the opponent isn't KO'd by Flamethrower, that is the point of a more damaging move in the first place.

Yes, but it still means that Fire blast does not do 7% more "overall in the long run" because in situations where the opponent is either OHKO'd or weakened enough to be killed by flamethrower, flamethrower is the more efficient move. The calculation you give is based on an opponent that is KO'd by fireblast which would not otherwise be KO'd by flamethrower, which is a much smaller percentage of the time, and is rarely the case during the course of an actual battle. Your opponent is not always 100% health at the time of using each move.

 

[familyguyman]

Yes, but it still means that Fire blast does not do 7% more "overall in the long run" because in situations where the opponent is either OHKO'd or weakened enough to be killed by flamethrower, flamethrower is the more efficient move. The calculation you give is based on an opponent that is KO'd by fireblast which would not otherwise be KO'd by flamethrower, which is a much smaller percentage of the time, and is rarely the case during the course of an actual battle. Your opponent is not always 100% health at the time of using each move.

Yes I know, I explained that later in my post.

I understand your point though. Against Lucario, Scizor or whatever, Flamethrower is better 10/10 unless they have Occa Berry or something random.

It is also important to note that not every pokemon has the Fire Blast vs Flamethrower problem. It is often clear cut (Stone Edge vs Rock Slide, Ice Beam/Thunderbolt vs Blizzard/Thunder, etc). However, let's say the average power gain from using a more efficient move is 6% when faced with a practical choice (ie: Cross Chop vs Brick Break) you are looking at big differences long term.

Pokemon is all about percentages, whether it is Hax, damage output, probability of prediction. Each contributes to winning and maximizing all of them will win you more games, it's that simple.

 

[M BLADE]

Missing a move can mean losing a game. It' up to you if you want more power or more accuracy.

About moves: sometimes, it looks that some moves arent so good, even if they have a high power.

Like Iron Tail. Base 100 power just like Meteor Mash, but with 10 less accuracy... and a nice 30% chance of lowering the def. of the opponent. It could see some use to cause some switches, or turning 3HKO into 2HKO for example.

Why no one uses. The typing of the move. Steel is one of the worst types to attack. No one wants to use steel moves unless it's STAB. And even if it is, it's difficult to choose it over something reliable, like Iron Head.

Sometimes, some innacurate moves aren't used not because it sucks,, but because of some detail that makes it not so good

Another example: Zap Cannon. No one uses, no one should use. Why not? The accuracy is just too damn low to compensate for the awesomeness of the move effect and power. Use nly in a Gravity centered team, or in a double match with Machamp together.

Now, Fire Blast vs Flamethrower is another thing. 85% accuracy is acceptable for the sheer power of Fire Blast. And we all know Fire is one of the best types attack wise.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Missing a move can mean losing a game. It' up to you if you want more power or more accuracy.

About moves: sometimes, it looks that some moves arent so good, even if they have a high power.

Like Iron Tail. Base 100 power just like Meteor Mash, but with 10 less accuracy... and a nice 30% chance of lowering the def. of the opponent. It could see some use to cause some switches, or turning 3HKO into 2HKO for example.

Why no one uses. The typing of the move. Steel is one of the worst types to attack. No one wants to use steel moves unless it's STAB. And even if it is, it's difficult to choose it over something reliable, like Iron Head.

Sometimes, some innacurate moves aren't used not because it sucks,, but because of some detail that makes it not so good

Another example: Zap Cannon. No one uses, no one should use. Why not? The accuracy is just too damn low to compensate for the awesomeness of the move effect and power. Use nly in a Gravity centered team, or in a double match with Machamp together.

Now, Fire Blast vs Flamethrower is another thing. 85% accuracy is acceptable for the sheer power of Fire Blast. And we all know Fire is one of the best types attack wise.

Agreeing with everything I've quoted except the last two paragraphs. I have seen several Zap Cannon Forretress in my time (I run one for crying out loud) I disagree with Fire being "one of the best types attack wise", with Dragons and bulky Waters everywhere...

 

[familyguyman]

Agreeing with everything I've quoted except the last two paragraphs. I have seen several Zap Cannon Forretress in my time (I run one for crying out loud) I disagree with Fire being "one of the best types attack wise", with Dragons and bulky Waters everywhere...

Zap Cannon Forretress is one big exception since Gyarados can set up on him until the cows come home which means GG so Zap Cannon means a 50% chance of Gyarados dieing which is very useful.

It's average damage output, long term, is the same as Shock Wave though which is why it is used about as often.

As for Fire, it kills Ice and Steel which are Dragon's main counters offensively and defensively respectively. So the same Dragon's who resist Fire also greatly benefit from Fire being around. The same can be said for Grass types and Bulky Waters.

 

[M BLADE]

Agreeing with everything I've quoted except the last two paragraphs. I have seen several Zap Cannon Forretress in my time (I run one for crying out loud) I disagree with Fire being "one of the best types attack wise", with Dragons and bulky Waters everywhere...

Yeah, the only thing that uses Zap Cannon is Forry...but only because he doesn't have much choice... i would love to use Zap Cannon with Magnezone though... too bad he can't afford to miss someone.

About fire being or not one of the best types attack wise... How many steels we have in OU? This is the most overused type in the game, and basically the only one that you can have two or more in the same team, and still be competitive. Heatran is the only steel that doesnt fear those fire moves...
Not to say it hits other things too, and it's the only type who can use a 120 power special move without missing many times. It still miss, but not so often as any other 120 BP special move out there.

On topic: another example: Dragon Rush. 30% chance to flinch, base 100 power. Great move? Not exactly. It's, basically, the same case of Iron Tail. You have Dragon Claw, which is accurate. You have Outrage, which is powerful AND accurate, but i lock myself for 2/3 turns with it. But it's so powerful, and since it's accurate, everyone uses on dragons.
But why no one uses Dragon Rush then? This move is somewhat between Outrage and Dragon Claw. It has a nice effect for all those DD users. Why?
Accuracy. Simple as that.

The only thing you can do is Baton Passing accuracy to someone... good luck doing that.
The only other thing is Gamefreak magically giving a dragon poke Compoundeyes. Yeah, right...

So, basically, Dragon Rush is out of question, unless you have a dragon who can take hits like a pro, that can afford to take many hits. A super defensive Dragonite with Light Screen? That seems the only plausible option for Dragon Rush for me. Maybe.

 

[lati0s]

@M blade you referenced using zap cannon together with machamp in a double battle, however no guard doesn't work like that, it's a glitch in netbattle

 

[M BLADE]

@M blade you referenced using zap cannon together with machamp in a double battle, however no guard doesn't work like that, it's a glitch in netbattle

I never played the new Netbattle lol, only the RSE days

I always thought that No Guard makes avery move 100% accurate in the field

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

No Guard only works with moves Machamp makes or moves used to attack Machamp.

I've been waiting for a discussion like this to come around forever. Good thread, twash.

I personally don't like to use anything worse than an 85% accuracy move.

Let me recount to you something I often tell my opponents who have 2-3 Stone Edge misses in a row... I once had Hydro Pump miss not once, not twice, but FIVE times in a row although there is a super tiny chance of that happening there is always a chance of missing an inaccurate move more than once. Two turns is more than enough to turn the tide of a battle and really, if you miss that much is it worth it to be using that move? Chances are if you battle a lot you will have those scenarios happen... and then what do you do? Not to mention when you have to deal with things such as the likes of Gliscor in a Sandstream, which makes trying to hit it with an inaccurate move even worse.

If you want to take risks you have to bear the consequences of potentially missing. I don't get why people don't use Rock Slide more... The Flinchhax is beautiful on faster users and since Stone Edge, Fire Blast, etc. are only 8 PP... You really can't afford to miss that much.

 

[Darkmalice]

Whether or not accuracy puts you off the move that is statiscally the best choice (e.g. Flamethrower and Fire Blast) should depend on that Pokemon's purpose.

For example, MixApe almost always uses Flamethrower, even though Fire Blast statistically does more damage. But it doesn't need that power; Flamethrower is enough to dent Pokemon like Skarmory. And those in which Fire Blast' power would help out against are hit harder by another one of Infernape's moves e.g. Hippowdon by Grass Knot. Missing with Fire Blast on Bronzong can be gamebreaking when Zong uses Earthquake.

With Heatran, however, Fire Blast is generally the better option. Heatran is used to check many Pokemon and force switches. For example, I send in Heatran on Forretress. Forretress should swap out (it would be foolish not too). It is the start of the fight, and I don't know what my opponent has. Using Explosion to hit what is possibly a Blissey is a bad idea; it could hit a BulkyGyara. Same for Earth Power. Fire Blast is generally the best move to hit threats you are unaware of, as it will deal the most damage on average (more than Flamethrower, Dragon Pulse etc). And Fire Blast missing usually won't be a gamebreaking event.

Other examples of this purpose of the Pokemon are Tyranitar and Aerodactly (this is an easier to understand example). Tyranitar already has reliable STAB in the form of Crunch. Stone Edge's extra power over Rock Slide is really appreciated. It nets 2HKOs against Pokemon that Rock Slide doesn't e.g. Skarmory, Celebi. Aerodactyl, however, really appreciates the accuracy to help make sure that it can remove the Focus Sash off the enemy Azelf, possibly getting a flinch to prevent it from setting up SR. Stone Edge won't turn any notable 2HKOs into OHKOs.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Its a calculated risk, a trade-off pure and simple. Which approach is appropriate depends a lot on playstyle, in some instances a KO is invaluable, in other instances leaving two 2 Pokemon on <40% is all you need to clean up with priority moves.

It makes you wonder, though, where is Hydro Pump on Kyogre/Palkia?

In a metagame where everything has Pressure its not really as feasible.

What I find interesting though, is how often base 90/95 moves are overlooked, in terms of accuracy.

95% seems as good as 100%, until Ice Fang misses Salamence three times in a row. (They must've been very brave/stupid/bulky to stay in a DD twice knowing I had Ice Fang.)

 

[Aiklap]

It makes you wonder, though, where is Hydro Pump on Kyogre/Palkia?

Palkia doesn't have hydro pump (yet). But I think someone mentioned how it could be useful.
Kyogre really doesn't stuggle with power.

Generally, I think the deadline is about ~80% (on a standard, non-gravity team). Moves with lower accuracy than that are quite rare, the exception being thunder in Ubers.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Generally, I think the deadline is about ~80% (on a standard, non-gravity team). Moves with lower accuracy than that are quite rare, the exception being thunder in Ubers.

I direct you to Will-O-Wisp, Sleep Powder, and Stun Spore, all with a fairly shaky 75% accuracy.

 

[EspyJoel]

I think for me it depends on the pokemon. On Heatran I like Fire Blast as its more of a deterrent to Salamence, Gyarados and Latias compared to Fire Blast. However, on MixMence I usually prefer Flamethrower since its mainly for Skarmory, Forretress and Scizor and they are hit hard enough. On Rain Dance teams I always use Hydro Pump on Kingdra since the main times when a miss costs you are times when Surf wouldn't have done enough anyway such as against Metagross, Zapdos, Togekiss, etc. On the mixed sweeper you have Waterfall for a reliable move and on the Timid special sweeper set I run Dragon Pulse is my reliable move.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I direct you to Will-O-Wisp, Sleep Powder, and Stun Spore, all with a fairly shaky 75% accuracy.

None of those are really common. Sleep Powder and Spore both have 100% accuracy alternatives that are far more common. Will-o-wisp only sees a bit of use here and there.