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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
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Some subtle proposed changes :
- electric arceus from a- --> a:
Even if it is rather one-dimensional (relative to a-ranked Ghostceus anyway), the most potent CM arceus in the tier deserves to be differentiated from its kin in water and fairy arceus. It's like a Rockceus that handles non-sdef Palkia (can opt to run sub > recover which fucks w spdef Kia more). Boltbeam coverage is as good as it has ever been; eleceus is hitting almost everything neutrally and is useful at all points of the game. Para immunity is a cute bonus.
- Tyranitar from b --> b+:
Good answer to 2 important mons in Yveltal and Ho-oh, both of which have a dearth of checks. Also sets sr effectively, has excellent bulk that with toxic/roar
can keep CM eleceus and Ghostceus in check, and it isn't an arceus thereby letting you run one of those. Sand support is also nice, supporting mons like exca and providing useful chip damage on stuff. This unique brand of support justifies its being high b IMO. Would argue a- but that's pushing it I guess.
Thoughts on mm2's changes:
- does wobb REALLY deserve b+?
- grassy should get high b imo bc of how scarce good ogre checks are :[ good ogre check + situational Palkia check >>> good Ho-oh check + shitty Yveltal check
- gira for c+ seems too harsh. It can still be a good ekiller/ogre check depending on its spread, and either way, it retains good all round bulk that can make it very annoying to take out of the game. Fairies and Yveltal just suck for it though so idk
Agree wholeheartedly w the rest, especially w Ho-oh, Klefki, and Rockceus. Reasoning for Genesect and sableye is solid also.
EDIT: wait I misread; a+ seems too high for Klefki, a is more fitting. Grounds + Ho-oh + ekiller keep it from being too up there. What it has going for it is being able to check Xern + Yveltal + Deo-a and priority toxic and spikes. Its weaknesses are very much there though, and very much exploitable.
- electric arceus from a- --> a:
Even if it is rather one-dimensional (relative to a-ranked Ghostceus anyway), the most potent CM arceus in the tier deserves to be differentiated from its kin in water and fairy arceus. It's like a Rockceus that handles non-sdef Palkia (can opt to run sub > recover which fucks w spdef Kia more). Boltbeam coverage is as good as it has ever been; eleceus is hitting almost everything neutrally and is useful at all points of the game. Para immunity is a cute bonus.
- Tyranitar from b --> b+:
Good answer to 2 important mons in Yveltal and Ho-oh, both of which have a dearth of checks. Also sets sr effectively, has excellent bulk that with toxic/roar
can keep CM eleceus and Ghostceus in check, and it isn't an arceus thereby letting you run one of those. Sand support is also nice, supporting mons like exca and providing useful chip damage on stuff. This unique brand of support justifies its being high b IMO. Would argue a- but that's pushing it I guess.
Thoughts on mm2's changes:
- does wobb REALLY deserve b+?
- grassy should get high b imo bc of how scarce good ogre checks are :[ good ogre check + situational Palkia check >>> good Ho-oh check + shitty Yveltal check
- gira for c+ seems too harsh. It can still be a good ekiller/ogre check depending on its spread, and either way, it retains good all round bulk that can make it very annoying to take out of the game. Fairies and Yveltal just suck for it though so idk
Agree wholeheartedly w the rest, especially w Ho-oh, Klefki, and Rockceus. Reasoning for Genesect and sableye is solid also.
EDIT: wait I misread; a+ seems too high for Klefki, a is more fitting. Grounds + Ho-oh + ekiller keep it from being too up there. What it has going for it is being able to check Xern + Yveltal + Deo-a and priority toxic and spikes. Its weaknesses are very much there though, and very much exploitable.
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I disagree with u malefic on wobb/grassy, melee is right. Giratina I think C+ might be slightly too harsh but it's hard to really place it as it has few niches but intense bulk and phazing capability. Not a great mon but I think its ranking might merit some discussion.
Kyurem-W should be moved higher to at least B+ or even A-. Defog neuters its biggest weakness (SR and hazards in general), Chansey being literally unviable in Gen 6 ubers means its only hard counter is gone forever (at least on the high ladder, she's still somewhat common on the lower ladder but just pair Kyu-W with Mega Gengar for an easy win) and it's still a god damn nuke who can and will punch holes if not outright OHKO stuff every time it's sent out.
Did I mention that base 95 speed means outspeeding at least 2 members of the average Uber team? God help you if you run stuff like Groudon or Skarmory and your opponent has Kyu-W.
I also disagree with moving Arceus-Ice down until someone at least tries to use it and prove it's worse than, say, Arceus-Psychic or Arceus-Flying. We shouldn't rank pokemon based on theorymoning alone.
Did I mention that base 95 speed means outspeeding at least 2 members of the average Uber team? God help you if you run stuff like Groudon or Skarmory and your opponent has Kyu-W.
I also disagree with moving Arceus-Ice down until someone at least tries to use it and prove it's worse than, say, Arceus-Psychic or Arceus-Flying. We shouldn't rank pokemon based on theorymoning alone.
I'm fine with putting Keys at only A rank.
Disagree on Elect arc. I'm actually a huge fan of water arc now (4 weeks of Water arc in SPL!!! I lost when I stopped using it :( ) and Fairy is very good still.
Iceceus isn't theorymon, lol. The arc formes that you mention actually have legitimate niches, well except flying but I don't mind dropping that a rank as well. Kyurem-W brings very little to a team and it requires support to work. OMG power isn't all there is to mons, you have Zard Y if you get off to that, anyways.
Disagree on Elect arc. I'm actually a huge fan of water arc now (4 weeks of Water arc in SPL!!! I lost when I stopped using it :( ) and Fairy is very good still.
Iceceus isn't theorymon, lol. The arc formes that you mention actually have legitimate niches, well except flying but I don't mind dropping that a rank as well. Kyurem-W brings very little to a team and it requires support to work. OMG power isn't all there is to mons, you have Zard Y if you get off to that, anyways.
What I found about water Arceus is that it kind of checks everything but doesn't really beat much either. It kind of switches into ogre/palkia/groudon/hooh/kyu w/ygod and more, and is the only mom that can switch into so many threats. However, it kind if loses 1v1 or ties against many of them, and is crippled by status. With that being said, it is probably the most reliable defogger, and is the best arceus in the groudon-hooh archtype. This isn't really endorsing it for any certain rank, I think it is a tough call
Can you seriously drop the Kyurem-W worship? You've brought up the same arguments repeatedly without adequately addressing its flaws and no one was convinced the last time around.
Being something that hits hard isn't an impressive niche in Ubers, and Kyurem-W contributes literally nothing in terms of defenses or support while requiring support itself. Its Speed tier is just over the offensive minimum, which is nice but not nearly as good as you make it out to be. Due to its relatively awful defensive typing combined with an enormous entry hazard weakness, it struggles to ever switch in safely against anything with the slightest offensive presence and must wait for a teammate to faint to come in. Once it comes in, it potentially leaves a hole in a team. Potentially. If the opponent has Blissey, Chansey, or Ho-Oh (which will gladly accept any Defogs from your side), it certainly doesn't (Ho-Oh can't shrug off a Draco Meteor but it can pivot in and out of it quite comfortably with Regenerator and Kyurem-W's offensive capability is now crippled). If it uses Draco Meteor and any Fairy switches in, it doesn't. If it uses Ice Beam and any pure Water-type switches in, it doesn't. If it uses either and any Steel-type (short of like Dialga, or Ferrothorn or Excadrill in the case of Ice Beam) switches in, it doesn't. If it uses a coverage move and the opponent doesn't switch it out or switches into something unexpected, it probably also doesn't. The massive holes Kyurem-W can leave are all very hypothetical and assume correct prediction. Or, perhaps Kyurem-W is using Life Orb, but then it dies even more quickly due to all the residual damage, not to mention that it now has very little hope of breaking Arceus-Water, Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost or Calm Mind Arceus-Electric, Specially Defensive Kyogre, and has no chance against Arceus-Fairy really. All the while it needs a very solid defensive core behind it due to becoming set up fodder whenever it successfully uses Draco Meteor or locks itself into moves that allow incredibly dangerous set up sweepers to have a field day with it (Geomancy Xerneas, Mega Blaziken, many Calm Mind Arceus).
In summation, it contributes essentially no defensive synergy or support, demands support itself and a solid defensive build behind it, and for all this it maybe succeeds in breaking some walls, if the opponent lacks a very solid check to it and if it predicts correctly. That's a pretty comprehensive list of flaws for some ifs and maybes. I didn't even go into the fact that the tier has a lot of other good wallbreakers which Kyurem-W has to try compete with.
And Arceus-Ice has been tested. Its typing is pretty much an insurmountable flaw. Calm Mind Arceus must use their bulk (which is important both for setting up and for having staying power) and offensive capability, and Arceus-Ice can only use the latter; a weakness to ubiquitous Steel-types (unless it uses a Fire move, but without Recover it will fall sooner rather than later and only gets one attempt to sweep and has no utility until this attempt), very dangerous Fighting-types (even if you give it all the support in the world Mega Mewtwo X and Protect Mega Blaziken crush it at any number of boosts), Ho-Oh (which will easily beat Arceus-Ice in the absence of Stealth Rock) and Rock Arceus in addition to the usual soft checks to various Calm Mind Arceus gives it too many threats to try to maneuver around. Moreover, most Calm Mind Arceus still perform some defensive roles alongside having sweeping potential, (Ghost, Fairy and Water have a lot of defensive utility, and even Electric soft checks a few things) and Arceus-Ice simply isn't suited to checking anything at all.
First of all, I've made good Ho-Oh teams tyvm, second, I don't know to what extent Ho-Oh was better in 5th gen since almost every team carried either Arceus-Ghost or Giratina(-O). It was really difficult to spin Stealth Rock last gen, it required a very specialized team building to pull a successful Ho-Oh strategy, I think we can all agree that a good example of this is Hack He Must's Droughtfest where he used a Lead Cloyster which beats almost every potential hazard lead just to use Banded Ho-Oh with no reprecussions at all. In XY Ubers, it is all about matchup however, you can use a Defog Arceus or w.e and you need to bank on your opponent not having a pokemon with a trapping ability. such as Mega Gengar or Gothitelle. I wouldn't say Defog teams are bad right off the bad (I personally don't like building around Ho-Oh because it takes a lot of support still), it all depends on the matchup you get which in my opinion, that's what most XY Ubers strategies rely on, team matchup. I could give you some examples of this but I think you got the point already.
In BW2 you could cover most (if not every one of them) of threats on your HO/Balance team if you use a good skeleton, in XY there are playstyles that will always win vs another, for example, Balance/HO without Mega Gengar or Mewtwo always has a hard time vs Stall since those 2 can break stall by themselves of course there are exceptions like refresh SD Arceus, where as stall gets raped by Banded Ho-Oh if they don't have an Arceus Rock, another example is, Sticky Web vs HO/Balance without Thundurus, makes it easier to set up the sticky webs and they always carry some very strong hitter that destroys teams. The fact that teambuilding is very restricted in this gen makes it harder to cover every big threat in the metagame
I thought you stated that SR control was more matchup reliant(to decide Ho Ohs place in the viability ranking). I agree that xy is more about matchup in general.
There are many more stallbreakers than just Mewtwo and Mega Gengar. Darkrai, Yveltal, Mixed Zekrom, Band Ho-Oh, Skymin, Refresh/MonoCM Arceus, Mixed/CM LO Xerneas, Gliscor, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, Blaziken, CM/Mixed Giratina-O, Rayquaza...this is a tier full of nasty offensive threats. Mewtwo and Mega Gengar are probably the best stallbreakers, yes, but they are certainly not the only ones. Good stall teams need to be prepared for Mewtwo anyway, this hasn't changed from BW2.
That being said, I do agree Shadow Tag Pokemon (mostly Gengar/Goth, though Wobb is just as much of a threat with the right teammates) makes team matchup much more of an issue.
As a side note, though Sticky Web is kinda matchup reliant, Thundurus certainly is not the biggest threat (esp if you run Shuckle over Smeargle) since there are good web mons that can beat it (Excadrill, Arceus-Ground, Lando-T, CharX, Dialga, etc) and it usually only lives long enough to para one thing. Things like Yveltal, Darkrai, other Smeargles, Magic Coat, and Jirachi/Keys are far more threatening I find.
Well, that's why I put the "I've seen" bit. :p
Ho-Oh doesn't have the permanent sun that it did have last gen. (which limited a lot more what could check it) Teams that rely on Ho-Oh who rely on Defog (which is basically every Ho-Oh team I've seen except like two) are inherently reactive and shitty teams.
Shadow Tag has the strongest matchup against those builds but any solid team nowadays knows how to setup SR and keep it up long enough that the damage is done. I can't remember which game it was (want to say Fireburn vs Blim in botw) where SR was only up for a handful of turns, but that was all that was needed because the only remaining Deoxys-A check Blim had was Ho-Oh which meant the defensive core on his balance team crumbled during those handful of turns.
Most Defog users are just massive momentum droppers and food for a host of threats, so having a Pokemon that relies on bringing that Defog user out every time something as simple as Stealth Rock is thrown up isn't a good thing.
Losing momentum was sorta true for last gen Ho-Oh but we had some better options for Rapid Spin (Tops, Excadrill) and even if you couldn't keep SR away, just having Sun up meant you'd screw over most defensive teams so your Ho-Oh wasn't deadweight. Ho-Oh is still strong in gen 6 but without perma sun its greatest advantage is that bulk, which means you rely more on Defog.
There's a lot of better options now for a wall breaker, a lot of better options for a wall. Ho-Oh isn't completely outclassed but with the reduced significance of its advantages it often isn't worth the support required.
So ummm, A or A-? (this is directed at everybody)
A: ho-oh is still a very big threat, it's nearly impossible to actually switch in on it. Offensive teams must be built so that there is no Ho-oh weak mon, defensive teams need actually checks that can switch in (impossible in the strictest sense of definition). Edgar is right, it's team match up reliant and if your defog arceus team isn't faced with gothitelle, chances are that you can make it work regardless, especially with a good build.
Not wanna nitpick but tops and exca are really shitty examples of spinners that you supported Ho-oh with last gen... especially on sun offense
Not wanna nitpick but tops and exca are really shitty examples of spinners that you supported Ho-oh with last gen... especially on sun offense
You're overestimating the effect sun has on Ho-Oh imo. Back in 4th gen Ho-Oh still had that nuclear Sacred Fire with permasun but still didn't see much usage because Kyogre and permarain existed to completely gimp it. It wasn't until Ho-Oh got that nuclear Brave Bird in HGSS that it became the huge threat it is today, and that Brave Bird hasn't changed a bit in Gen 6. Truth is, there are a lot of things in Ubers that resist Fire - Kyogre, Palkia, various Arceus formes, Giratina, Heatran, Reshiram, Zekrom, other Ho-Ohs, TTar - most of whom aren't 2HKOed even in the sun or can change the weather. That's not to say Sacred Fire isn't a great move (one of the best offensive moves in the game in fact), but it's really the Brave Bird combined the Fire STAB that makes Ho-Oh such a threat offensively.
Also, do keep in mind that while Gen 6 no longer has permasun, it doesn't have permarain either, which arguably makes Sacred Fire somewhat more reliable of an attack.
To be fair, you pointed out that Blim could have just as easily trapped Landorus-T with Gengar (which he had Shadow Ball on to screw up my U-turn set) which would have prevented me from setting up SR again and thus allowing Ho-Oh + his two Zekrom checks to have a very good chance outstall the rest of my team fairly easily. (Toxic Leftovers Ho-Oh beats Arceus-Water btw, I was kinda lucky that I got it burned by Sacred Fire lol).
The Shadow Tag argument works both ways, just saying. (Also some Defoggers such as Giratina-O and Ghostceus can't be trapped at all and work well with Ho-Oh)
Replace Defog with Rapid Spin and you have the situation in Gen 5, just that the spinners save Mold Breaker Drill and Cloyster (both of which are still viable in Gen 6!) had an even worse matchup against the Ghosts then Defog users have against hazard setters nowadays. If anything, the fact that Defog exists makes Ho-Oh builds more flexible since Drill/Cloyster still work and now you can put hazard removing duties to good Pokemon like Arceus or Giratina-O instead of having to slap Forretress on every team.
What better options? You wouldn't use Kabutops or Tentacruel on a team with Ho-Oh unless you forfeit sun (which kills the argument that Ho-Oh needed sun to be so threatening), Excadrill and Cloyster are still viable, Forry isn't as good as it used to be but it's still viable and it was a momentum killer last gen. And before you bring up Magic Bounce, they aren't magic (har har) solutions either - Espeon sucks and could often only stop SR once and Xatu can't beat Dialga or offensive Groudon, though it did admittedly make Ferrothorn/Forretress useless (and it makes Klefki useless in Gen 6...). If anything we have more options for removing hazards = Ho-Oh has more flexibility in teambuilding.
Seriously, not to be rude but you're sounding like those uninformed new OU players who take one look at Ho-Oh and go "ew it's x4 weak to SR and needs sun it sucks!!!". You are severely overestimating the effects of sun and not considering the fact that there is now far more flexibility in hazard control than there ever was last gen. Heck, Ho-Oh is one of the biggest reasons why you need SR in the first place. Defensive sets can check big threats like Mewtwo/Arceus/Yveltal/Xerneas and the offensive sets' only reliable switchin is Rock Arceus which doesn't do much outside of beating Ho-Oh. There aren't better comparable options because no other Pokemon can really do all the things Ho-Oh can.
I think Ho-Oh should stay at A+ but I will accept A as the absolute minimum, anything lower is criminal.
Yeah, I know about Tops and Exca not benefitting sun Ho-Oh, they were just the only good spinners I could remember barring the Cloyster set I completely forgot about. (otherwise people used the Magic Bounce)
Btw, I know my last post was disorganized (like this one will be) but the point was that you lack as many good ways to get up SR and/or perma sun to deal with having SR up, anyways. Tops and Exca wouldn't have a sun Ho-Oh but the later wouldn't have to worry much about SR and the former sorta was in the same boat (it was still a better countermeasure than Defog) but mostly Rain just heavily profited from Ho-Oh's typing. Sun teams had Cloyster + sun and I guess Magic Bounce. (which still worked out okayish cause sun Ho-Oh was that scary)
(all the other methods were unviable for the same reasons that I consider Defog Arceus unviable)
Yeah, Sacred Fire alone didn't make Ho-Oh good. It was sun Sacred with the BB that was scary. A lot more things check Ho-Oh now through raw bulk (like lugiass and gliscor) that would have relied on winning a weather war to work before.
I also ignored Shadow Tag cause Blim had it and you didn't. :p
Yes Cloyster is still viable, that's one of the two good Ho-Oh teams I've seen.
We have more options superficially but as far as ones that translate into good teams you are just as if not more limited.
Keep in mind, if I'm harsh on Ho-Oh it's relative to the expectations it is currently being held to as A+. Not trying to say that mon is absolute garbage.
What I'm trying to get at is that Ho-Oh was indirectly nerfed by the disappearance of perma sun (which gave it that extra edge that against defensive teams, just having SR up wasn't enough) as well as not having as many viable anti-SR options. (meaning you are more limited in teambuilding) It's harder to support and not giving out the same results it used to. (plus there's more competition for what it can do, weather nerf really changed a lot for everything not called Kyogre)
Totally fine with A, I know I have some personal bias which is why I asked.
Btw, I know my last post was disorganized (like this one will be) but the point was that you lack as many good ways to get up SR and/or perma sun to deal with having SR up, anyways. Tops and Exca wouldn't have a sun Ho-Oh but the later wouldn't have to worry much about SR and the former sorta was in the same boat (it was still a better countermeasure than Defog) but mostly Rain just heavily profited from Ho-Oh's typing. Sun teams had Cloyster + sun and I guess Magic Bounce. (which still worked out okayish cause sun Ho-Oh was that scary)
(all the other methods were unviable for the same reasons that I consider Defog Arceus unviable)
Yeah, Sacred Fire alone didn't make Ho-Oh good. It was sun Sacred with the BB that was scary. A lot more things check Ho-Oh now through raw bulk (like lugiass and gliscor) that would have relied on winning a weather war to work before.
I also ignored Shadow Tag cause Blim had it and you didn't. :p
Yes Cloyster is still viable, that's one of the two good Ho-Oh teams I've seen.
We have more options superficially but as far as ones that translate into good teams you are just as if not more limited.
Keep in mind, if I'm harsh on Ho-Oh it's relative to the expectations it is currently being held to as A+. Not trying to say that mon is absolute garbage.
What I'm trying to get at is that Ho-Oh was indirectly nerfed by the disappearance of perma sun (which gave it that extra edge that against defensive teams, just having SR up wasn't enough) as well as not having as many viable anti-SR options. (meaning you are more limited in teambuilding) It's harder to support and not giving out the same results it used to. (plus there's more competition for what it can do, weather nerf really changed a lot for everything not called Kyogre)
Totally fine with A, I know I have some personal bias which is why I asked.
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Defog arceus unviable? I feel like that needs some explanation. I did see you mention something about it being passive, and while that is true, in exchange you get a ho-oh that can switch in for free, which is the opposite of passive as it can switch into half the meta and nothing switches into it.
Unless you can come up with more examples these two Pokemon are literally it, and even still, Lugia hates getting burnt because it screws up Multiscale (and SR + burn means Lugia fails) and Gliscor can only use Toxic (which means it loses 1 vs 1 to Sub Ho-Oh) and can't switch in directly until Poison Heal activates due to the risk of a burn. Landorus-T doesn't count, it gets wrecked by burns and lacks recovery. Two additional soft checks is not "a lot" more things, especially considering Groudon is something Lugia/Gliscor will want to come in on (so greater odds of sun being up).
And no, Defog Arceus is not unviable. What even gave you that impression? (Aside from STAG but we know how much you love STAG)
I think mm2 meant non ghost/dark arc forms running defog.... Or at least I sure hope so. Since he runs goth or some shit which I think is even more matchup based an even deadweight against most offensive teams......
Also what the hell? Ho oh does not need sun to function at all. It can utilize it for sure but having no sun is by no means a death sentence for it which is different than how no rain = shittops/star. All ho oh doesn't want is rain up for that water boost + 100% thunder but even then ho oh still has an incredibly powerful STAB brave bird in rain and can still fish for a burn. The fact that mm2 thinks Ho oh needs sun to function baffles me.
Fireburn, are u talking about banded ho-oh or normal? Because non banded ho-oh can be walled by bold chansey, arceus, giratina, yveltal. As for banded ho-oh, gliscor can't even beat that
You reading too far into what I'm posting although I know it's been very disorganised. I don't think Ho-Oh needs sun to function, I'm just saying that the lack of perma sun has significantly (nowhere near completely of course) affected Ho-Oh's effectiveness.
When I said Defog Arceus is unviable I mean in relation to Ho-Oh. In other words, relying on Defog Arceus to consistently remove Stealth Rock for Ho-Oh is unviable. It's not even to do with tag, although that certainly adds more to the plate. It's that using Defog Arceus loses a lot of momentum and is inherently reactive. You may get a couple turns of proactivity out of your Ho-Oh afterwards but that's after having let your opponent have his way. Not to mention that the level of proactivity isn't at the same level it used to be.
As for new checks, along with Lugiass and Gliscor (Roost variants btw), Electric Arceus and Water Arceus. That may only be 4 but 4 is quite a big number especially when these are a lot more viable than Rock Arceus was in Gen 5 and don't get completely buttfucked by EQ variants like Heatran was. (Electric is obviously annoyed but it's not OHKO, gg no re) None of these worked as Ho-Oh checks even when SR was up if sun was in play. (Electric Arceus's niche was Thunder)
Just to jump ahead, yes sun wasn't up all the time. However, sun Ho-Oh teams were largely very offensively oriented which meant sun was up often enough that completely relying on rain wasn't viable for defensively oriented teams. More offensive builds were bothered by Ho-Oh's bulk more than his punch, thus the importance of anti-SR measures that weren't momentum droppers. (like it is this gen)
(The following paragraph is just disclaimer and otherwise worthless)
Again, keep in mind that all this is within the context of the A rank. Obviously, I'm not arguing Ho-Oh is utter garbage. Tbh, I'm not even sure what I'm arguing for anything at this point. (I was fine with A rank obviously :p) It's just to prove that I wasn't lying when I said "I'd honestly even argue for A-" and because I feel it's worthwhile discussion.
When I said Defog Arceus is unviable I mean in relation to Ho-Oh. In other words, relying on Defog Arceus to consistently remove Stealth Rock for Ho-Oh is unviable. It's not even to do with tag, although that certainly adds more to the plate. It's that using Defog Arceus loses a lot of momentum and is inherently reactive. You may get a couple turns of proactivity out of your Ho-Oh afterwards but that's after having let your opponent have his way. Not to mention that the level of proactivity isn't at the same level it used to be.
As for new checks, along with Lugiass and Gliscor (Roost variants btw), Electric Arceus and Water Arceus. That may only be 4 but 4 is quite a big number especially when these are a lot more viable than Rock Arceus was in Gen 5 and don't get completely buttfucked by EQ variants like Heatran was. (Electric is obviously annoyed but it's not OHKO, gg no re) None of these worked as Ho-Oh checks even when SR was up if sun was in play. (Electric Arceus's niche was Thunder)
Just to jump ahead, yes sun wasn't up all the time. However, sun Ho-Oh teams were largely very offensively oriented which meant sun was up often enough that completely relying on rain wasn't viable for defensively oriented teams. More offensive builds were bothered by Ho-Oh's bulk more than his punch, thus the importance of anti-SR measures that weren't momentum droppers. (like it is this gen)
(The following paragraph is just disclaimer and otherwise worthless)
Again, keep in mind that all this is within the context of the A rank. Obviously, I'm not arguing Ho-Oh is utter garbage. Tbh, I'm not even sure what I'm arguing for anything at this point. (I was fine with A rank obviously :p) It's just to prove that I wasn't lying when I said "I'd honestly even argue for A-" and because I feel it's worthwhile discussion.
Idk most of the mons you mentioned aren't just things you can slap on a team :[ but I agree there's plenty of options but a lot of them are just hard to fit on a team I feel like.
Losing permasun hasn't affected Ho-Oh that much at all lol, you're really just making a mountain out of a molehill at that point. It slightly cuts Sacred Fire against a 2-3 Pokemon but that's really it. I'm reading into it a lot because it seems like most of your argument stems from sheer personal bias (which you admitted to having) rather than Ho-Oh's actual merit which you are undervaluing significantly.
If a "couple turns" of proactivity means Ho-Oh gets to smash 1-2 Pokemon on the enemy team because nothing switches into it then I'm all for it. Hazard removal in general is inherently reactive (applies to Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce as well) but that doesn't mean it's not worth it given how useful of a move Defog is. And you have to admit the chances of Arceus, a Pokemon with 120/120/120 defenses, 120 Speed, and the ability to be any type in the game, getting a Defog off is much, much better than poor Forretress back in Gen 5 trying to pull off a spin against Giratina or Ghostceus. Yeah, it does lose momentum, but it's way better than relying on Forretress to do everything.
And again, I'm assuming by "loss of proactivity" you mean loss of permasun which has hardly affected Ho-Oh. Stop making it out to be something huge, because in reality the effect is really small and largely counterbalanced by the loss of permarain as well.
Who runs Roost Gliscor?
Water Arceus is not a new check lol, it was used even in BW2 sun teams as a way to defend against Kyurem-W and Fire spam.
Electric Arceus is a terrible check, it can't switch into 2/3 of the attacks Ho-Oh commonly uses (Sacred Fire and EQ 2HKO) and can't even OHKO Ho-Oh with 252 SpA Judgment, and after killing Eleceus Ho-Oh can just Regenerator its HP back, gg no re to you too. Using Eleceus as a Ho-Oh check is like using Landorus-T as an Extremekiller check (hint: it's not going to end well for you).
It's not 4 new checks, it's more like 1 decent check (Lugia) and 1.5 soft checks. Considering Ho-Oh has exactly one good switchin (Rock Arceus), that is not really significant.
Then why are you even saying that Ho-Oh's supposedly "huge" drop in power this gen makes him worse if his bulk (which is EASIER to take advantage of this gen) was the issue in the first place? And are you seriously implying using Rapid Spin (we've been over this) or relying on Magic Bounce from an otherwise terrible Pokemon (Espeon sucks and Xatu sucks slightly less) isn't as bad of a momentum dropper as having Arceus (which is freaking Arceus) or Giratina-O (who is still quite threatening) click Defog, especially when those things still exist? Do you even realize what you're saying right now?
Lol seriously, what is your beef with Ho-Oh? Right now the only reason I can discern from you wanting to drop it amounts to "I just don't like this Pokemon" which is not at all a reason to drop it.
Oh cmon guys, you're both biased with your views on Ho-Oh. This is a bit silly.
Ho-Oh is a solid A rank mon. It provides insane utility by being a defensive and offensive threat for the majority of meta, however it requires a lot of support to succeed. The posts already went through this point thoroughly, and I don't see any dissent to that position. And, the debate about whether if Ho-Oh got improved or worsen over the generation shift is irrelevant. Ho-Oh should be ranked by how it performs in the current metagame.
Ho-Oh is a solid A rank mon. It provides insane utility by being a defensive and offensive threat for the majority of meta, however it requires a lot of support to succeed. The posts already went through this point thoroughly, and I don't see any dissent to that position. And, the debate about whether if Ho-Oh got improved or worsen over the generation shift is irrelevant. Ho-Oh should be ranked by how it performs in the current metagame.
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