• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

Zap Cannon suddenly becomes a spammable move, with 83% accuracy and a 100% chance to paralyse while sporting 120 BP, porygon2 and forretress become quite dangerous, maybe even Zapdos ( though it dislikes gravity ), become incredibly dangerous.
With no ability to get rid of it, it'd be incredibly broken tbh :/
 
This theorymon would work towards all pokemon so just bear with me

What if Life Orb recoil, stat boosts, stat decreases, recharging, etc occurred even if the move misses or has no effect?

Moves like Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm would cause the user's SpA to be haved if the 10% to miss occurs, moves like Scald, Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave, and Ice Beam would still have the ability to inflict their status if absorbed. Fiery Dance and Charge Beam could still possibly increase SpA if they get absorbed. Sky Attack would also still have to recharge if it misses. With all these things, pokemon would still take LO recoil if it misses or the opposing pokemon uses Protect. I feel like it would cause a lot of changes possibly, where LO+low accuracy moves may not be used together anymore like Focus Blast and Stone Edge.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
 
G-Von said:
What if Life Orb recoil, stat boosts, stat decreases, recharging, etc occurred even if the move misses or has no effect?
Click to expand...
In regards to accuracy, this further exemplifies the idea of risk reward. Aside from LO though, the only common moves that have damaging side effects are very limited. Draco Meteor-esque moves only have a 10% miss chance, which is almost always overlooked for the power they provide. Superpower is a possible exception though, because it's normally used primarily for SE coverage. This means that Pokes that are weak to Superpower (i.e. Blissey) could utilize Protect not only stall but to weaken the attacker to a point where a KO is not possible.

On another note, if Scald's burn chance still applies regardless of being absorbed, then it'd be easily abused. Only Fire types can avoid the burn and already they hate taking Scald.
 
What if Haxorus got Extremespeed?

Haxorus is easily revenge killed after a Dragon dance or Swords Dance, but what if it could just bypass these revenge killers? A Double Dance set would be much more potent with Magnezone support, and the Swords Dance set would be much more viable. Extremespeed will also bypass Breloom trying to revenge kill with Mach Punch and Conkeldurr with some prior damage too!


612.gif
Life Orb | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance | Dragon Claw / Outrage | Earthquake | Extremespeed

Haxorus @ Choice Band | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Outrage | Extremespeed | Earthquake | Dual Chop

Haxorus @ Life Orb | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Swords Dance | Dragon Claw | Extremespeed | Earthquake / Superpower

All of the above sets are much more potent thanks to this tool. Would this Draco Salamandar be in par with the other beasts, or would it even outclass things like Garchomp?
 
Last edited:
klvkboom said:
In regards to accuracy, this further exemplifies the idea of risk reward. Aside from LO though, the only common moves that have damaging side effects are very limited. Draco Meteor-esque moves only have a 10% miss chance, which is almost always overlooked for the power they provide. Superpower is a possible exception though, because it's normally used primarily for SE coverage. This means that Pokes that are weak to Superpower (i.e. Blissey) could utilize Protect not only stall but to weaken the attacker to a point where a KO is not possible.

On another note, if Scald's burn chance still applies regardless of being absorbed, then it'd be easily abused. Only Fire types can avoid the burn and already they hate taking Scald.
Click to expand...

Don't forget about Close Combat and V-create. Most fighting types do carry CC so if a ghost switched in, their defenses would still drop. In terms of V-create, yea Victini may be the only pokemon able to use it in OU, but it is seen quite a bit. If Heatran switches in, which the speed and defenses down a stage, heatran can OHKO back with EP before a non-choiced Victini can use Brick Break.
 
100% said:
What if Haxorus got Extremespeed?

Haxorus is easily revenge killed after a Dragon dance or Swords Dance, but what if it could just bypass these revenge killers? A Double Dance set would be much more potent with Magnezone support, and the Swords Dance set would be much more viable. Extremespeed will also bypass Breloom trying to revenge kill with Mach Punch and Conkeldurr with some prior damage too!


612.gif

Haxorus @ Normal Gem | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance | Dragon Claw / Outrage | Earthquake | Extremespeed

Haxorus @ Choice Band | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Outrage | Extremespeed | Earthquake | Dual Chop

Haxorus @ Life Orb | Mold Breaker
Adamant | 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Swords Dance | Dragon Claw | Extremespeed | Earthquake / Superpower

All of the above sets are much more potent thanks to this tool. Would this Draco Salamandar be in par with the other beasts, or would it even outclass things like Garchomp?
Click to expand...

I think it'd outclass Dragonite as a DD sweeper, and probably DD mence too (although not many people run that anyway). Being neutral to SR would require much less support than Dragonite, and it hits much harder as well as being faster. Yeah Multiscale will be missed, but Mold Breaker is actually a great ability, nailing Gengar and Bronzong without having to be locked in Outrage. I dunno if I like the idea of Normal Gem tbh. I mean what is it hitting? +1 E speed is already hitting fast Pokemon really hard, and anything slower than Haxorus is being hit hard with Outrage. I think Lum Berry is the best option, allowing Haxorus to set up on Politoed's Scald without any fear.

I also really like the idea of a Swords Dance set. It's be like a harder hitting Garchomp with priority, that sounds terrifying. Definitely top 10 Pokemon material imo
 
I dont think it would be a harder hitting garchomp. Now I don't think chomp is that great to begin with, especially as a sd sweeper, but its great dual stabs, bulk, and speed stat aide it in this department (at least compared to haxorus)

I'm thinking more along the lines of a much harder hitting (and faster!) lucario. It is essentially a faster rayquaza. Sd/espeed/superpower/dragon claw with lo adamant means hax is an absurd cleaner
 
100% said:
What if Haxorus got Extremespeed?
Click to expand...
This could possibly make Haxorus similar to Rayquaza was when he was dominant in Ubers. An SD variant would be very powerful in OU. A CBset is also equally strong.

I agree with MikeDawg that SD Hax would be a stronger version of Luc. Numbers-wise it's pretty big. Hax has ~20% more ATK than Luc, meaning those OHKO's are even more easily secured, whereas Luc requires a bit of Hazards. Haxorus doesn't get the power of Close Combat with Dclaw though (unless he wants to get Outrage locked), but overlooking that he has other advantages going for him. His coverage moves are much more powerful. Superpower, Low Kick, EQ, and Aqua Tail are pretty strong in terms of base power (Luc is stuck with moves that require SE hits). Also, his typing is similar unique to Luc's being resistant to many common attacks. His lack of a reliable Fire move might hurt him being unable to hit Skarm/Scizor/Forry for a hard hit. That could make some synergy with Magnezone though.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
I think it'd outclass Dragonite as a DD sweeper, and probably DD mence too (although not many people run that anyway). Being neutral to SR would require much less support than Dragonite, and it hits much harder as well as being faster. Yeah Multiscale will be missed, but Mold Breaker is actually a great ability, nailing Gengar and Bronzong without having to be locked in Outrage. I dunno if I like the idea of Normal Gem tbh. I mean what is it hitting? +1 E speed is already hitting fast Pokemon really hard, and anything slower than Haxorus is being hit hard with Outrage. I think Lum Berry is the best option, allowing Haxorus to set up on Politoed's Scald without any fear.

I also really like the idea of a Swords Dance set. It's be like a harder hitting Garchomp with priority, that sounds terrifying. Definitely top 10 Pokemon material imo
Click to expand...
I meant to put life orb there, but idk what i was thinking i'll fix that. if haxorus did get extremespeed, what flaws do you think it'd have bar getting the boost
 
What if Life Orb recoil, stat boosts, stat decreases, recharging, etc occurred even if the move misses or has no effect?
Click to expand...

If i am reading this properly it would mean rapid spin would remove hazards even if it is blocked therefore eliminating the ability to spin block. As a result this would really decrease the power of entry hazards and radically change the value of Pokemon who are affected by hazards on both sides
 
mode.9800 said:
If i am reading this properly it would mean rapid spin would remove hazards even if it is blocked therefore eliminating the ability to spin block. As a result this would really decrease the power of entry hazards and radically change the value of Pokemon who are affected by hazards on both sides
Click to expand...
That is actually an amazing point..
 
What if Gengar got Aura Sphere?

Probably won't be metagame-shaking, but wouldn't you think Gengar would have a easier time sweeping? And the likes of Tyranitar must be prepared to be badly hurt if it tries to trap Gengar? Of course, Gengar won't be able to hurt things like Scizor without HP Fire
 
purple crobatchop said:
What if Gengar got Aura Sphere?

Probably won't be metagame-shaking, but wouldn't you think Gengar would have a easier time sweeping? And the likes of Tyranitar must be prepared to be badly hurt if it tries to trap Gengar? Of course, Gengar won't be able to hurt things like Scizor without HP Fire
Click to expand...

It would definitely become the standard set for Gengar. It's ability to not miss compared to Focus Blast'sI terrible 70% makes it so much more reliable. It's still KOing Banded Tyranitar, and it's never going to miss, which has caused people so many ragequit 9.9

252 SpA Gengar Aura Sphere vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 396-468 (102.59 - 121.24%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't think Gengar would miss Focus Blast, as it's mainly only used for coverage anyone on Steel and Dark types, since most of the time it's going to be using Shadow Ball. I don't think the sets would change too much, but imo it would make Gengar much better.

Edit: Yeah this calc is inaccurate, as I didn't factor in the SpDef boost from sand. It's kill a solid 2HKO, and I think Gengar prefers the consistently that Aura Sphere provides
 
Last edited:
^I think that calc's without Tyranitar's sand boost taken into account. Gengar needs something like Life Orb + rocks to guarantee the OHKO with Aura Sphere on 180HP Tyranitar.
Anyway, Gengar would appreciate access to Aura Sphere, much like any Pokémon that currently commonly carries Focus Blast (Alakazam, Thundurus-T or whatever) but like original poster said I wouldn't see it as something that affects the metagame much.
 
What if Kyurem learned Frost Breath?

Just a recap for those who don't really know what Frost Breath does, it's a Special 40BP/90ACC Ice move that has guaranteed crit. Now, just putting it out there, it's pretty weak hitting only 80BP after the crit is applied (Ice Beam sits at 95BP). But the crit is something that could actually be utilized. It brings up a totally different question which many players overlook due to the "hax" nature of critting. If crits were "reliable", could they be utilized effectively?

Now, crits are pretty nifty in that they bypass any def boosts from your opponent as well as bypass any atk drops from yourself. What I'm hinting here is that Frost Breath can effectively bypass they SpA drop that Draco Meteor gives, meaning you're not handicapped after using Draco Meteor. It's also a way to hit through CM users, but those scenarios are rare compared to the interaction you'll have with Meteor. There is a problem with Frost Breath though being weaker than Ice Beam before any drops, also if your opponent happens to have Battle Armor/Shell Armor as an ability you're stuck unable to crit. Still, I would say this is definitely an interesting concept. It's been in the games since forever but always as a form of hax. With this, we can actually make crits "work".

Also, seeing that Frost Breath is a rare move, your opponent probably won't know that it guarantees crit. It might be funny seeing them rage at you screaming "crit hax" and such :p

I have another concept using the physical variant of Frost Breath, but I'll save that for later.
 
mode.9800 said:
If i am reading this properly it would mean rapid spin would remove hazards even if it is blocked therefore eliminating the ability to spin block. As a result this would really decrease the power of entry hazards and radically change the value of Pokemon who are affected by hazards on both sides
Click to expand...

Sounds about right to me. The Rapid Spin does take place after all so logically why would the hazards not disappear even if the move is used on a ghost-type?
 
What if Tyranitar got Sand Force?

If TTar got a good offensive ability like Sand Force, do you think Tyranitar's stats/movepool/typing are good enough to merit it a spot on a Hippo based sand team?

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in sand: 204-240 (62.38 - 73.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T in sand: 204-240 (55.28 - 65.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor in sand: 231-273 (65.25 - 77.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite in sand: 372-438 (96.37 - 113.47%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in sand: 260-307 (80.24 - 94.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo in sand: 195-230 (60.18 - 70.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr in sand: 249-293 (65.35 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather holy shit
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr in sand: 186-219 (48.81 - 57.48%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after weather fuuuck

252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in sand: 249-293 (69.55 - 81.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO holy shit
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in sand: 160-189 (45.45 - 53.69%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan in sand: 152-179 (39.58 - 46.61%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sand Force Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon in sand: 206-243 (49.04 - 57.85%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO
 
Chou Toshio said:
What if Tyranitar got Sand Force?

If TTar got a good offensive ability like Sand Force, do you think Tyranitar's stats/movepool/typing are good enough to merit it a spot on a Hippo based sand team?
Click to expand...
Yes. Tyranitar is a beast. I say that because even without sand, it has monster attack, decent bulk, and gets a SpDef boost from sand. While I'm pretty confident that just running T-tar with sand stream would be better, because it gives itself the SpDef boost, and is a good pokemon in general (plus, trapping ability is awesome), I think Tyranitar would merit a spot on a Hippo based sand team, although I would probably only use Sand Force T-Tar if I was already using Hippo, because T-tar comes in a nice "great bulky attacker/trapper/weather starter package".

Hippo is horribly underused anyways.
 
klvkboom said:
What if Kyurem learned Frost Breath?

If crits were "reliable", could they be utilized effectively?
Click to expand...

I like it. That way it dose not have to switch out whence you used Draco meteor on something. However since most things that can take a draco meteor are steel types. I do not think that a resisted hit will do much to a Specially defensive mon. That being said gotta love the rage that it will bring, and that 80 base power is not that much but it will do. The only CM mon that i will see a problem with this is Keldeo. After you already Fired off a Draco Meteor of course. Now If crits were Reliable then you could use them effectively Kyurem (if it learned it ) is proof with Frost Breath. Even Rotom-F could be a bit better.
 
What if Dragonite received Heal Bell and Multiscale?

During the days on DPP, Dragonite had this pretty weird bulky Dragon Dancing set, consisting of Dragon Dance / Roost / Heal Bell / Dragon claw. However, Dragonite doesn't receive Heal Bell with Multiscale, it's DW ability. I really think this is a shame, as I think Heal Bell could be seen on a few sets. Here's the set I'd like to see

Offensive Cleric

149.gif

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
252 HP / 216 SpD / 40 Spe
Careful Nature
- Heal Bell
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

This set could see a lot of potential regarding stall teams. It beats stall very easily, while also working very effectively on stall teams. There's a lack of good clerics in OU, as the only viable options are can think of are Chansey / Blissey, and Celebi. Dragonite offers a support in being a cleric while also creating a win condition, which most stall teams lack. Dragonite is seriously bulky with Multiscale in tact, and Dragonite after a few boosts is going to be sweeping teams. It sets up on a multiple of threats, including Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Celebi lacking Perish Song, and Chansey (including many other threats).

The SpDef EVs are used to tank Keldeo's Surf, Rotom-W Volt Switch, and Gastrodon's Ice Beam's easily, while the Speed investment allows Dragonite to outspeed positive-natured Lucario and neutral-natured base 100s after a Dragon Dance. The rest of the EVs are placed into HP, making it extremely bulky. This set needs a few boosts to get going, but it shouldn't be a problem getting those boosts with Heal Bell and Roost.
 
Eh idk about Dragon Dance, it might work as sort of an option over Substitute on... Substitute DD Dragonite.

I think it would have better on the Tank Rain set as an alternative over Dragon tail.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
Eh idk about Dragon Dance, it might work as sort of an option over Substitute on... Substitute DD Dragonite.

I think it would have better on the Tank Rain set as an alternative over Dragon tail.
Click to expand...

Eh, substitute doesn't support the team in any way, and it makes Dragonite prone to Scald / Lava Plume hax on the switch. I can also see Heal Bell working on a Tank rain set, but imo the set I posted would be the most effective.
 
I think both sets could be very effective. Heal bell multiscale nite would be such a bitch to take down. While the meta is a lot more offensive now, I still think status is a key method for dealing with dragonite and its multiscale. Heal bell could be potentially ridiculous-- especially if Cube got the ban hammer
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top