Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

[Chou Toshio]

Speed plays a much bigger factor without Scarf users-- probably the biggest problem you'll have with the metagame.

Jolteon, Alakazam, and Starmie all get major boosts.

I don't think it would help stall nearly as much as it would help boosting sweepers, especially DD and Quiver Dance users. Not only is there no scarf users to revenge them, but there are no Band/Specs users to potentially OHKO them (they will have a LOT more opportunities to set up).

Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, Gyarados, and even DD Kingdra now become WAY harder to deal with (practically unstoppable?). Even with Aladaron's proposal, I would run a Rain team with DD Gyara AND DD Sniper Kingdra lol.

 

[GCSChris]

^Except sun is much weaker than rain right? Sun is less popular than Sand too. Would spammable draco meteors be "broken" enough to make Sun the dominant play style?

While I see your point, I think it still might be a bit overpowered. I think the benefits that sun would give would Draco Meteor would obviously make Sun better, and it would be interesting to see how much better Sun would be, but with this it just comes down to the fact of the move being unfair.

Then again, Rain boosted Hydro Pumps and powerful Thunders and Hurricanes are good but not considered broken. In addition, this:

TTar also would bring in sand which means the -2 Sp.A then pursuit to win . And That becomes the Main thing to counter Draco Meteor Spam.

But as previously said, T-tar would become the only check to Draco Meteor, and that's assuming that Latios is doing the Meteor-ing. (Hey, maybe Hydreigon would spike in usage, who knows)

You also need to take into account the strength of dragons in general and the fact that Sun would also boost their Fire-type attacks, effectively giving them a STAB Fire Blast/Punch

Even if it wasn't unfair, this statement is pretty true as well:

It can potentially be countered sure, but on the other hand it creates an unhealthy environment where there is little involvement from the Lati@s user.

Although this is closer than I thought, I still think it would be a bit too powerful.

Lol, Chou Toshio, are you going to say what if Draco Meteor lowered the opponents Special Defense by 2 upon use?

Let's not even go there lol

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Honestly, without choice items all one needs to do is look at past metas, in particular the loss of choice scarf will bring back OU to a sort of ADV meta, without band of course.

One particular difference though will be the rise of priority, if you think scizor is common now, just you wait until its one of the few viable checks left, it will probably be a staple for most teams.

On stall, while less tricking and breaking walls by spamming with specs and band will be going on, the loss of scarf will hurt some stall teams as they use it to check, choice band is even used at times to break through opposing Pokemon: bandtar. Still, stall will definitely get a boost, especially as more teams get defensive in order to counter Pokemon, as checking things will be harder ironically.

Also Chou, stall teams deal with the Pokemon you listed fine without choice items. :)

 

[GCSChris]

What if there was never the existence of Choice items?

Very interesting theorymon. Priority and speed would become way more important than they already are. As said, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon, Scizor, etc. would become even better. Perhaps fast Pokemon that are otherwise not very good like Raikou would see decent OU usage. It would also be harder to revenge kill without Choice Scarf, and it would be harder to stop fast pokemon like Starmie. Stall would be better without Specs/Band wallbreakers.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Honestly, without choice items all one needs to do is look at past metas, in particular the loss of choice scarf will bring back OU to a sort of ADV meta, without band of course.

One particular difference though will be the rise of priority, if you think scizor is common now, just you wait until its one of the few viable checks left, it will probably be a staple for most teams.

On stall, while less tricking and breaking walls by spamming with specs and band will be going on, the loss of scarf will hurt some stall teams as they use it to check, choice band is even used at times to break through opposing Pokemon: bandtar. Still, stall will definitely get a boost, especially as more teams get defensive in order to counter Pokemon, as checking things will be harder ironically.

Also Chou, stall teams deal with the Pokemon you listed fine without choice items. :)

I wasn't implying that stall teams would have trouble against set up sweepers. I was saying that set up sweepers would get a much bigger boost that stall teams would.

 

[Schpoonman]

The metagame would instantly lose a huge amount of HO teams. And yes, Toshio is right, set-up sweepers would be incredible. DD Salamence would possibly be the best sweeper in the game. Nothing naturally outspeeds it after a boost, so you'd have to rely on Mamoswine/lots of defensive presence, but even defensive presence might not be enough thanks to Moxie. Would we see Salamence banned again? Maybe.

Volcarona would also be absolutely horrible to deal with. The same for Dragonite and SubSalacSD Garchomp. Basically set-up sweepers would be king in a way that is hard to imagine.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Exactly. This isn't ADV where the worst mence can do to your phazer is hidden power flying

 

[casey90]

What if Steelix had recieved the ability Dry skin from Dream world?

personally I think this would give steelix enough of an edge to make OU easily. His biggest problem imo was always lack of recovery. Dry skin patches this and simultaneously takes away his crippling water weakness. In the rain I believe Steelix could make for a dominant physical wall. with a spread off 244 Hp and 76+ Def. Even CB terrakion manages only 76-93% with CC. That's fuckin bulky! So what do you think? Would dry skin be enough for Steelix to make the OU cutoff? Would his inclusion have any drastic changes on the metagame. (seriously run some calcs that fucker will almost never die)

EDIT: i forgot to mention that he's immune to toxic, thunderwave, and Scald (burns). Only sleep and wisp threaten him. Did I mention he 4X resists stealth rock?

 

[Huskisson906]

It will certainly be interesting option for Steelix. I mean with this he is now immune to all water moves. Although i wouldn't really say it's reliable in single matches. VGC he will have a niche although a small one you could just surf spam with him on your team and get 25% healing before rain and lefties also heal you. I also found that Specs Keldeo would only be doing about 31.5% to Steelix on Icy Wind (assuming 180 Sp.D investments) and Sacred Sword will be doing 65.6% minimum (assuming your investments). I diden't count the other two moves because one is immune and the other will do less than Icy Wind because of resist. This alone tells me that Steelix probably won't make it out of the UU tier maybe not even make it out of the RU tier with this ability because Steelix is already weak to fire and this will compound the problem.

 

[Chou Toshio]

What if Steelix had recieved the ability Dry skin from Dream world?

It's kind of like how I brought up Dry Skin Escavalier before (Escavalier makes a lot more sense flavor-wise :p)

The thing about Escavalier though, is that he is best used to take down Special attackers based on typing/movepool (Scizor too, wishes he had more Special bulk than physical), and has the stats to be an incredible Special defensive threat.

Similarly, with the addition of Dry Skin, Steelix too would have an incredibly good typing for Special walling. Immune to Electric and Water, Resistant to Flying (hurricane), Dragon (D. Meteor), Ghost, Psychic, and neutral to Ice and Grass. Rain would even go a long way to covering up its Fire weak.

The problem with Steelix though (in DPP/BW at least), has always been trying to figure out how to leverage its awesome 200 DEF-- because it's weak to Fighting and Ground, the two attacking types found on almost every physical attacker. Throw in a Water-type weak, and now it's weak to not almost, but EVERY physical attacker. Getting rid of said Water-weak helps because it makes Gyarados (and DD Kingdra) completely walled. It DOESN'T answer the issue with the 90%+ physical threats packing Fighting/Ground attacks for coverage.

Dry Skin doesn't make Steelix much more reliable as a physical wall, which is a problem. However, without a water weak, Steelix has the stats to go for a mixed wall set-- it's special defensive typing is just that good. It's stats do kind of let it down...

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 96-113 (27.11 - 31.92%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 156-185 (44.06 - 52.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 138-164 (38.98 - 46.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 117-138 (33.05 - 38.98%) -- 9.25% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 124-147 (35.02 - 41.52%) -- 79.32% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 76-91 (21.46 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 152-180 (42.93 - 50.84%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And let's not forget that Steelix says a big FUCK YOU to Rotom-W and CM Jirachi.

But those Special Defensive stats...
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 156-185 (44.06 - 52.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 161-190 (45.48 - 53.67%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 316-372 (89.26 - 105.08%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 255-302 (72.03 - 85.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hm...... :S

And let's not forget that it isn't just physical attackers who can use Ground / Fighting coverage

252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 250-296 (70.62 - 83.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 254-300 (71.75 - 84.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 330-390 (93.22 - 110.16%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 248-292 (70.05 - 82.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 341-403 (96.32 - 113.84%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO

 

[Huskisson906]

It is strange that Steelix has a Great defense stat but can't pull it off while his Sp.D stat dose just fine with Water Absorb. But Focus blast and HP fighting/fire.

 

[casey90]

Something though to consider about steelix is that when played in the rain with leftovers, it recovers 18.75% of it's health passively EVERY TURN! That means that even an attack that deals out 50% initial damage only caps at 31.25% actual damage sustained. Throw in a turn of protect and Steelix only sustained 12.5% damage. It's this fact that makes steelix a great wall. +1 Life Orb EQ from 252+ Gyara only deals 41.24-48.58 to 244 Hp 76 Def+ Steelix. That's 23% sustained damage MAXIMUM. At which point he could just Roar/Dragon Tail him out.

@ Chou. yes those special calcs show that steelix can't take on those attacks, but outside of Reuniclus, none of them can take a gyro ball either.

 

[Gary]

What if Tyranitar didn't have Sand Stream?

If anyone has been on the OU viability ranking thread these past few days, you would have found a pointless argument questioning Tyranitar's viability if it were to lose it's beloved ability, Sand Stream, but on this thread it fits. Now we all know that Tyranitar and Hippowdon are the only GOOD Pokemon that got an Auto weather ability (other than Kyogre and Groudon), but would Tyranitar still be considered a good OU Pokemon if it lost Sand Stream? That amazing 50% SpD boost does so much for it, allowing it to switch into Draco Meteors from Scarf Latios and Life Orb Latias, and then proceed to Pursuit trap them. Without that boost, T-Tar can no longer successfully come in on these attacks and trap them, because it would take way too much damage and possibly be KOed in the process. Although T-Tar's biggest niche in OU outside of Sand Stream is Pursuit trapping, breaking through walls with Choice Band, and Stealth Rock, would T-Tar still be a decent OU Pokemon if it lost it's biggest niche?

Personally, I feel that it's usage would drop significantly, but it's by no means a bad Pokemon even with the loss of Sand Stream. It can no longer come in on Draco Meteor or Surf from Latias or Latios, but it would still be a decent check to them, like Scizor for example. It also has access to Stealth Rock, a decent physical and special movepool, and its Choice Band set is very powerful. It's speed is its biggest problem, and without that special defense boost to compensate for it, T-Tar's speed is even more of a problem. Not only does Sand Stream make T-Tar better, just it's presence on a team adapted to work in sand makes your whole team that much better. So that means if T-Tar lost Sand Stream, there would be little reason to use it outside of checking Psychic-types, which honestly Weavile does better anyway. I have a feeling that T-Tar would probably drop a tier or two with the loss of its ability, but it's still a great Pokemon in general, and it still has a few niches that could keep in from dropping that far.

Of course, if T-Tar didn't get Sand Stream, I have a feeling that it probably have another ability other than just Unnerve, so I guess we can't accurately guess how good it would be unless we knew what other ability would be replacing it.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Something though to consider about steelix is that when played in the rain with leftovers, it recovers 18.75% of it's health passively EVERY TURN! That means that even an attack that deals out 50% initial damage only caps at 31.25% actual damage sustained. Throw in a turn of protect and Steelix only sustained 12.5% damage. It's this fact that makes steelix a great wall. +1 Life Orb EQ from 252+ Gyara only deals 41.24-48.58 to 244 Hp 76 Def+ Steelix. That's 23% sustained damage MAXIMUM. At which point he could just Roar/Dragon Tail him out.

@ Chou. yes those special calcs show that steelix can't take on those attacks, but outside of Reuniclus, none of them can take a gyro ball either.

Tha's besides the point. Since Steelix is the defensive pokemon and we are assessing its viability as a defensive mon, the Odis falls on Steelix to prove it can reliably switch in, and do so repeatedly.

The point about Dry Skin's recovery is very important though, as it makes Steelix a MUCH more reliable physical wall in the rain. If you think of Gyara's +1 Life Orb EQ doing similar damage to a CS Terrak Close Combat, Steelix becomes very hard to take down even for pokes with super effective STAB. Moreover, by the time you switch in a special attacker into Steelix, the damage done by the physical one will likely be all but gone.

 

[Huskisson906]

What if Tyranitar didn't have Sand Stream?

TTar won't be able to tank special hits i don't even think it will be used as much as it is now. Sand stream Sp.D wall was one of it's biggest niches and to take it away it becomes a O.k. wall + Pursuit trapper. Also a Trick Room abuser, just throwing that out there. Sand will have no wepeon against rain as Hydro pump pelts all but gastrodon. I say no wepeon against rain because Hippo can't take a special hit. Lets see... Sun might increase if only slightly. TTar would fall probably to mid-lower OU.

Of course, if T-Tar didn't get Sand Stream, I have a feeling that it probably have another ability other than just Unnerve, so I guess we can't accurately guess how good it would be unless we knew what other ability would be replacing it.

Love it now lets replace it with Guts. It fits flavor wise because it has Guts as pre-evolution form. Although this wouldn't change a lot of things to make TTar better it certainly is better than unnerve in single battles. It no longer fears Burn, Toxic, and Para (not that it did in the first place). Me personally DD guts TTar. However it is weak to a priority we like to call Bullet punch and Mach Punch. So it won't get a lot of sweeps. But I would think that if you switch it on a ghost type that has wil-o-wisp you can pursuit it out or risk the crunch. Since it will do a lot.

4 Atk Guts Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 92-110 (28.84 - 34.48%) -- possible 4HKO


4 Atk Guts Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 156-186 (38.7 - 46.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


4 Atk Guts Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 79-94 (26.42 - 31.43%) -- possible 4HKO

These are people not switching out by the way.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think TTar would be a mid level OU Pokemon. Choice Band and Choice Scarf would be its main sets, and Scarf would be exponentially more popular than it is now. The thing is TTar still wants to trap stuff with pursuit, but if it can't switch into Draco Meteors or Surfs anymore, it's got to use Speed to get the edge-- which it still will on Gengar, Starmie, and Lati@s. SR mixed attacker would lose tremendous viability without the special defense boost, and the ability to switch into and setup SR on special attackers.

However, TTar would likely get its Special defensive boost more often than you would expect. Hippowdon + Ttar teams would be pretty popular, and Scarf TTar under Hippow's sand would still be an excellent switch and kill against Lati@s. Other thing is that without Sandstream TTar in the meta, Dugtrio's usage might plummet-- making it a lot easier for Scarftar to do its job without constantly worrying about getting trapped and killed.

Guts Replaces Sand Stream on TTar-- makes sense, would be AMAZING

If TTar got Guts, god that would make it an AMAZING trapper (especially with Hippowdon support). Now, with Hippowdon's support, Specially Defensive Guts TTar wouldn't give a shit about weaker Scalds. Guts TTar under Sand from Hippowdon could switch into Jellicent literally with IMPUNITY. Jellicent would be 100% killed by banded guts TTar under sand. Support Starmie? Tentacruel? These guys better get Rain up before even THINKING of coming in, because under Hippow's Sand, Guts TTar would fuck them up silly.

Similarly, Guts would make TTar LETHAL to Ninetales. If Ninetales lacked Solar Beam, it would have absolutely NO WAY of dealing with Guts TTar. If Ninetales allowed Hippowdon to switch into it (Hippow could switch in on protect, Roar, or tank a Flamethrower by putting up sand and using Special Defense evs), and then stayed in for the TTar switch in, it would get murdered by TTar under sand.

I think that covers most of the pokes that rely on burn to deal with TTar, but the point is that Guts TTar would definitely be boss-- especially with Hippow support.

 

[GCSChris]

What if Tyranitar didn't have Sand Stream?

While T-tar is obviously a great pokemon. It's stat spread is amazing, and I think that even without the SpD boost, it would be pretty sound both defensively and offensively. Also, like you said Gary, it would probably have a really good ability, so taking that into account, I think it would still be a great bulky offensive pokemon, but it loses its great attribute of being able to get rid of rain. Hippowdon would be used more for this, and while T-tar's usage would go down, looking back to 4th gen, T-tar had Sandstream and the OU weather pokemon didn't have their DW abilities. It didn't have its role of removing opposing weather, and it was amazing (personally I haven't played 4th gen, but I'm pretty sure it was almost like the Scizor of Gen IV). T-tar would be worse without Sandstream, but it would probably still have a great ability and, even still, is a great pokemon. Its niche has severely increased going into Gen V, getting rid of weather AND trapping and killing Lati@s, and without the SpD boost, it wouldn't be able to do this. Its niche would decrease, but I think it would survive in the OU environment.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Ok, first off Sandstream is an incredible advantage in 4th Gen, even without other weather starters. That special defensive boost was just as big a boost then as it is now (though maybe not as prized since we banned Lati@s), and getting rid of walls' leftovers or hacking down LO Infernape/Salamence's life lines was a tremendous asset to a number of teams. 4th Gen TTar was definitely used for its weather boosts just about as much as it is now-- ESPECIALLY in the first DP OU metagame where Garchomp was OUT OF CONTROL. The usage gap between Garchomp and #2 was greater than the usage gap between #2 and #10.

TTar was never "the scizor of 4th gen" though. Scizor was #1 for the entire post-Platinum release era (except for Heatran's stint as number 1, which eventually died off after Shaymin-S got banned).

If you really want to look at a past tier as an example, I'd say ADV is the place to look-- TTar was THE most dominant poke (or 1 of 2 maybe), and it didn't even have the S.Def boost! Of course sand was still a big asset for it, but I think the fact that it could stand at the top even without its beloved boost speaks volumes about how awesome ttar is as a poke. Of course, ADV supersedes the release of Bullet Punch/Mach Punch, and most Pokemon had to look to Brick Break or Focus Punch if they wanted a fighting attack. lol

 

[sly101s]

Not sure if it's been asked earlier, but what if Zapdos got Hurricane? The other two legendary birds both get hurricane, while Zapdos is in fact lacking in any sort of flying special attack, forcing it to rely on the rather pathetic HP Flying. With Hurricane, Zapdos would become a massively threatening rain sweeper with those dual STABs. Or alternatively, it could stick to specially defensive while keeping the ability to hit hard. The release of its Lightning Rod ability would only enhance both sets as well.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Not sure if it's been asked earlier, but what if Zapdos got Hurricane? The other two legendary birds both get hurricane, while Zapdos is in fact lacking in any sort of flying special attack, forcing it to rely on the rather pathetic HP Flying. With Hurricane, Zapdos would become a massively threatening rain sweeper with those dual STABs. Or alternatively, it could stick to specially defensive while keeping the ability to hit hard. The release of its Lightning Rod ability would only enhance both sets as well.

"What if Zapdos could learn Hurricane?

It's a shame GF didn't allow Zapdos to learn Hurricane (since both Articuno and Moltres learn it), as it would have amazing coverage with just it's STABs. What I'm thinking about is would Zapdos outclass Thundurus-T as a rain sweeper? There are a few differences between the two (Thundurus-T gets Nasty Plot, has higher special attack, more speed, and Focus Blast, while Zapdos has Hurricane, more bulk, Roost, and Heat Wave), but I believe Zapdos would see higher usage, as it checks top threats such as Landorus, Breloom, and Scizor much more reliably than Thundurus-T. I think the most popular set would be something along the lines of a bulky Zapdos with Thunder, Hurricane, Roost, and HP Ice. Although I see the possibility of a sweeping Agility set."

I posted this on the first page, but it didn't get much feedback. Anyway, here are my thoughts about what I think would happen if Zapdos got Hurricane.

 

[klvkboom]

"What if Zapdos could learn Hurricane?

Zapdos would definitely become one of the more dominant rain attackers if it got Hurricane. Along with Thunder, that's 2 STABS with 120 base power and perfect accuracy coming off of a respectable 125SpA, not to mention the 30% chance of hax with paralysis or confusion. It would probably make Zapdos a premier rain attacker, possibly besting Thundurus-T or even Tornadus.

You're probably right about Zapdos abusing a bulky set-up of Thunder/ Hurricane/ Roost/ HP Ice. I'd say you could potentially make it stronger though forgoing some bulkiness in the use of Life Orb. An Agility set works but since you're reliant on Rain it might be a while til you get to even try and set up. You could also probably run a set using only Thunder and Hurricane as your sole attacks, as majority of OU is hit for at least neutral from Flying/Electric (HP Ice is only stronger than your STABs on 4x weak Pokes if your STABs hit for neutral).

Using Thunder and Hurricane on the same set also brings up some very weird counters for Zapdos. TTar and Ninetales become quite the unique checks since they toy around with your accuracy by changing weather (Sun would absolutely wreck you accuracy-wise).

 

[GCSChris]

^Ok, first off Sandstream is an incredible advantage in 4th Gen, even without other weather starters. That special defensive boost was just as big a boost then as it is now (though maybe not as prized since we banned Lati@s), and getting rid of walls' leftovers or hacking down LO Infernape/Salamence's life lines was a tremendous asset to a number of teams. 4th Gen TTar was definitely used for its weather boosts just about as much as it is now-- ESPECIALLY in the first DP OU metagame where Garchomp was OUT OF CONTROL. The usage gap between Garchomp and #2 was greater than the usage gap between #2 and #10.

TTar was never "the scizor of 4th gen" though. Scizor was #1 for the entire post-Platinum release era (except for Heatran's stint as number 1, which eventually died off after Shaymin-S got banned).

If you really want to look at a past tier as an example, I'd say ADV is the place to look-- TTar was THE most dominant poke (or 1 of 2 maybe), and it didn't even have the S.Def boost! Of course sand was still a big asset for it, but I think the fact that it could stand at the top even without its beloved boost speaks volumes about how awesome ttar is as a poke. Of course, ADV supersedes the release of Bullet Punch/Mach Punch, and most Pokemon had to look to Brick Break or Focus Punch if they wanted a fighting attack. lol

Ok maybe scizor was a bad comparison, but it was one of the best pokemon of the generation. The ADV comparison was MUCH bettter (thanks), but I don't really know anything about it lol. Also, obviously sand was great in Gen IV, but I was just mentioning how it doesn't have the now very important role of getting rid of Rain/Sun.

what if Zapdos got Hurricane?

This is so stupid since both Articuno and Moltres learn it (TrollFreak). Zapdos is awesome already, but I think that Hurricane would really give it the power it needs to be solid in OU.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

My preference will be for Specially Defensive Zapdos, but I would probably run a set of Thunderbolt / Hurricane / Roost / Heatwave. Rain is common enough in the meta to run Zapdos without rain support, and if you run both moves, you will never be disadvantaged, in the rain you have Hurricane, outside of it you can use Heat Wave, pretty much always hitting Ferrothorn hard. Also, IMO Heat Wave is a required move for Zapdos otherwise it can't check Venusaur in the sun like it is suppose to, at least on my teams, I don't want to gamble 50% odds of hitting it in the sun.

 

[Azure Demon]

My preference will be for Specially Defensive Zapdos, but I would probably run a set of Thunderbolt / Hurricane / Roost / Heatwave. Rain is common enough in the meta to run Zapdos without rain support, and if you run both moves, you will never be disadvantaged, in the rain you have Hurricane, outside of it you can use Heat Wave, pretty much always hitting Ferrothorn hard. Also, IMO Heat Wave is a required move for Zapdos otherwise it can't check Venusaur in the sun like it is suppose to, at least on my teams, I don't want to gamble 50% odds of hitting it in the sun.

If you run both though you are also wasting a move slot. Because if there is rain that heat wave slot is just a waste of space. You could run hp grass in that slot and be more effective. Also, i don't if it's smart to run hurricane anything without rain support.lol sure rain is premier weather is OU but people still run sandstorm and hail teams or sometimes they just. Run a pokemon to stop the rain. It's best if you can guarantee yourself the boosted accuracy. You know?

 

[Gary]

What if Cresselia got Heal Bell?

To tell you the truth, I think this is all Cresselia needs to become a good OU Pokemon, at least on sun teams. Outside of her shitty offensive presence, Heal Bell would make Cresselia one of the hardest things to kill in OU, especially in sun (It would be immortal). Although it faces stiff competition from Celebi, Cresselia is a LOT bulkier, and it's only weak to Bug, Dark, and Ghost, the latter really only seen on Gengar anyway (which Cresselia could actually beat with Psychic). Other than Cresselia's lack of offensive capabilities, Cresselia is completely stopped cold by Toxic. With Heal Bell, Cresselia can no longer be stalled out with Toxic, and it will force the opponent to have to wear it down by attacking. Although Cresselia would still lack a reliable healing move outside of Moonlight, Heal Bell would greatly increase its usage on both offensive and stall sun teams. Outside of sun, Cresselia is a lot easier to wear down, but at the same time her utility would make up for it. I feel that giving Cresselia Heal Bell would make her a staple on most sun teams, and it would give her more of a reason to use her in general. Seriously though, why wouldn't you use Heal Bell Cresselia on a sun team? It would be impossible to KO, and it would provide a ton of support for offensive sun teams that can't afford their Chlorophyll sweeper being paralyzed or their Ninetales crippled by Toxic.