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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

Again, 2HKOing everything with a choice band is no big deal. Did you ever think about what happens when you lock yourself into Return or Fire Punch? You give your opponent an amazing opportunity to gain momentum and potentially sweep. And again, this set would require a shit ton of prediction to be successful, unlike most Choice Band users you can just spam their STABs and be successful (think Terrakion, Scizor etc).

Just think about how much momentum you lose if you predict incorrectly.

Also, if you want a choice band user with near flawless coverage with 2 moves, why not just use Terrakion?

Sorry I'm getting confused with your edits Chou. SSB stated it would be tested and banned (lol). That's why I stated it wouldn't break the metagame
 
Chou Toshio said:
Think about this:
-Fire Punch 2HKO's every Steel type in OU except for Heatran.
-Fire Punch also has a 43% chance to OHKO Gengar
-Heatran, Tyranitar, and Terrakion all are 2HKO'd by CB Double Edge for most of their sets
-Jellicent has a 46.88% chance to be 2HKO'd by EQ, and is always 2HKO'd with SR.

Therefore, CB Slaking has almost flawless coverage with just 2 moves-- Double Edge + Fire Punch, and DOES have flawless coverage (it can 2HKO literally everything) with just Double Edge, Fire Punch, and EQ. It even has a spot for Pursuit or Sucker Punch in that moveset
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As i said again Chou, power alone is not enough for an offensive Pokemon to succeed in OU. Nobody says that Shaking's power is not incredible but what else does Slaking bring to the table? CB Terrakion brings a Stoutland check, a Volcarona check, a SD Lucario check, a Heatran check, etc, alongside a great 108 Speed. CB Dragonite brings strong priority and multiple resistances alongside Multiscale, allowing it to hold back many offensive threats. CB Kyurem-B brings a Water resistance in a rain dominated metagame (i can't stress how important this is) and has the ability to 2HKO most of the metagame with just Outrage (unlike Slaking which needs Ghost-types take care of too before being able to freely spam its STAB, and yes Ghost-types are very important as both Jellicent and Gengar are great OU pokes). What does Slaking offer other than sheer power?
 
alexwolf said:
What does Slaking offer other than sheer power?
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Alex-- well I cannot stress enough that we're talking about MAKING THE OU CUT-- not the Uber one. I think Sheer Power is enough to make the OU list, even if you don't break the meta.

Look, Alex, even you are finding yourself comparing Slaking to Terrakion, Dragonite, and Cube to look for "better" examples. All of these Pokemon are top class threats with an A+ ranking on the viability ranks.

If you really want to argue that Pick Up Slaking would be BL, you won't be convincing at all unless you're arguing that Pokemon like Jolteon, Gastrodon, Haxorus, or Vaporeon are better in OU than Pick Up Slaking would be. Frankly, I definitely don't see it
 
alexwolf, you are forgetting Slaking's immense physical bulk of 150 HP / 100 Defense - Slaking can definitely take abuse, and couple that with its 160 Atk and 100 Spe, Slaking will be one of the premier wallbreakers on par with Kyurem-Black. Slaking has Slack Off, so it can really make use of its bulk if you tailor it. It also has an 80 BP priority move in Sucker Punch - it's not the most reliable priority move, but it can definitely finish off Dragons stuck in Outrage or other Pokemon without a non-attacking move.
 
Chou Toshio said:
Alex-- well I cannot stress enough that we're talking about MAKING THE OU CUT-- not the Uber one. I think Sheer Power is enough to make the OU list, even if you don't break the meta.

Look, Alex, even you are finding yourself comparing Slaking to Terrakion, Dragonite, and Cube to look for "better" examples. All of these Pokemon are top class threats with an A+ ranking on the viability ranks.

If you really want to argue that Pick Up Slaking would be BL, you won't be convincing at all unless you're arguing that Pokemon like Jolteon, Gastrodon, Haxorus, or Vaporeon are better in OU than Pick Up Slaking would be. Frankly, I definitely don't see it
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But there's no point in using Slaking when you could use the better choice banded Pokemon alexwolf and I mentioned. It's also outclassed in other other set that you could be running, and also please don't bring up that Slaking has a good support move pool, as the only value it would have on team would be a surprise factor (which is also outclassed and isn't worth using over something else). Also, using support moves drops coverage which you so desperately need on Slaking
 
Chou Toshio said:
Alex-- well I cannot stress enough that we're talking about MAKING THE OU CUT-- not the Uber one. I think Sheer Power is enough to make the OU list, even if you don't break the meta.

Look, Alex, even you are finding yourself comparing Slaking to Terrakion, Dragonite, and Cube to look for "better" examples. All of these Pokemon are top class threats with an A+ ranking on the viability ranks.

If you really want to argue that Pick Up Slaking would be BL, you won't be convincing at all unless you're arguing that Pokemon like Jolteon, Gastrodon, Haxorus, or Vaporeon are better in OU than Pick Up Slaking would be. Frankly, I definitely don't see it
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Chou i am suggesting that he couldn't make it in OU and i am comparing it to those CB users because he would face stiff competition with them and if he had nothing different to provide other than power (which OU has already a lot of anyway, with plenty of unwallable Pokemon) then why would he be OU? However, it is true that i forgot about Sucker Punch and priority is always great, especially coming off of this insane Attack stat. Maybe a Return / Double Edge, Fire Punch, Sucker Punch, Slack Off set with some HP investment could make use of Slaking's unique traits, namely huge Attack with Normal STAB, Sucker Punch, and best physical bulk out of any other CB user in OU, and even help it make it in OU...
 
I cant see how slaking woudlnt break the game. What is its flaw? Its outsped by base 101 and up, so what? It has the bulk to take even stab super effective hits anyway. Heck i could definitely see it running bulk max hp max atk spreads instead of investing in speed. A bulk up set is definitely a possibility too, it would be basically a buffed up curselax with instant recovery. It could even run slack off+ 3 attacks life orb if it wanted. Such power, bulk, coverage and possible unpredictability (depending on what people would use) are enough to make the though of a truant-less slaking a really scary one.
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
The fact that nothing takes super effective damage from normal attacks is irrelevant.
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I was talking about the Normal-type in general, not just Slaking. In Slaking's case it doesn't really matter, I agree.

You guys are making convincing arguments, so I'm beginning to doubt Slaking getting past OU. I don't think it would be BL or lower though.

@Slaking getting Sheer Force: Even though Sheer Force is a great ability, I don't think it would impact Slaking much, assuming Slaking already lost Truant. The only notable physical moves improved by Sheer Force are Body Slam, which is 8 points stronger than Return with the boost, and Rock Slide, which doesn't improve its coverage much at all. As with most mons, its special movepool is a little more vivid, with Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, but its boosted Special Attack is still weaker than its Attack. I guess a special LO set could be viable though.

VV Slaking doesn't get Fire Punch... Fire Blast does the job, but it still has to choose between defenses and speed when picking a nature, which sucks.
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
I cant see how slaking woudlnt break the game. What is its flaw? Its outsped by base 101 and up, so what? It has the bulk to take even stab super effective hits anyway. Heck i could definitely see it running bulk max hp max atk spreads instead of investing in speed. A bulk up set is definitely a possibility too, it would be basically a buffed up curselax with instant recovery. It could even run slack off+ 3 attacks life orb if it wanted. Such power, bulk, coverage and possible unpredictability (depending on what people would use) are enough to make the though of a truant-less slaking a really scary one.
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Honestly, I don't see how you can think it would break the metagame. What makes you think that? What do you mean so what that's it's out speed by base 101s? That's a pretty big deal for an offensive Pokemon, as Keldeo and Terrakion can come in, revenge you, or start setting up (in Terrakion's case). And no, he doesn't have the bulk to take supoer effective hits in this metagame.

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slaking in rain: 415-490 (93.89 - 110.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 584-690 (132.12 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 499-588 (112.89 - 133.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While these calc's may seem bias, you did state it has enough bulk to take super effective hits. A buffed up curselax? You're acting as if CurseLax is good in this metagame, and running Bulk Up / Slack Off / Return / Filler is going to leave it hard walled by something.
 
Sheer force would boost fire punch power allowing it to deal 84% max to phys def skarmory and would also power up all of its special moves making a mixed set a possibility. But i think guts would be better as it would allow it to run status orb sets that would be essentially a band set that changes moves.
@SS I know it wont be tanking choice band terrakion close combats or lucario life orb close combats (slaking is faster than lucario anyway tho) as that would require signifcant defensive investment but a simple max hp spread would allow it to tank scarf terrakion close combat, specs keldeo hydro pump outside of rain and toxicroak life orb drain punch which is pretty impressive considering its an offensive mon taking all of those super effective hits (keldeo hydro pump deals more damage than secret sword).
 
alexwolf said:
Chou i am suggesting that he couldn't make it in OU and i am comparing it to those CB users because he would face stiff competition with them and if he had nothing different to provide other than power (which OU has already a lot of anyway, with plenty of unwallable Pokemon) then why would he be OU?
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Dude, there are plenty of lower OU Pokemon who are almost completely outclassed by other threats. It doesn't stop them from being OU. Especially for powerful offensive mons-- if you can get enough of a fan-boy following, you will be OU (see Metagross, see DP Electavire).

Something that 2HKO's everything in the meta, has only 1 weakness, 680 BST, and can trap, priority, go defensive/trolly, special, and do who knows what else? There's no way poor players (let alone good players) would let this thing fall from OU.

ShootinStarmie said:
Honestly, I don't see how you can think it would break the metagame. What makes you think that? What do you mean so what that's it's out speed by base 101s? That's a pretty big deal for an offensive Pokemon, as Keldeo and Terrakion can come in, revenge you, or start setting up (in Terrakion's case). And no, he doesn't have the bulk to take supoer effective hits in this metagame.

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slaking in rain: 415-490 (93.89 - 110.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Holy fuck, Keldeo's Rain Boosted Hydro Pump needs SR to Guarantee a OHKO-- and it's not even investing in bulk.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 584-690 (132.12 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 499-588 (112.89 - 133.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Holy shit, Terrakion needs a boosing item to OHKO it, and it's not even using HP EVs.


While these calc's may seem bias, you did state it has enough bulk to take super effective hits. A buffed up curselax? You're acting as if CurseLax is good in this metagame, and running Bulk Up / Slack Off / Return / Filler is going to leave it hard walled by something.
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Chou Toshio said:
Dude, there are plenty of lower OU Pokemon who are almost completely outclassed by other threats. It doesn't stop them from being OU. Especially for powerful offensive mons-- if you can get enough of a fan-boy following, you will be OU (see Metagross, see DP Electavire).

Something that 2HKO's everything in the meta, has only 1 weakness, 680 BST, and can trap, priority, go defensive/trolly, special, and do who knows what else? There's no way poor players (let alone good players) would let this thing fall from OU.
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Chou, did you not even read the rest of my post? I said those calcs were bias because SSB make a broad claim that Slaking can survive SE attacks. Also, now you decide Slaking is running bulk? It can't run every single set, and every single set has it's (major) flaws.

@SSB, yeah, and Kyurem can tank Mach Punch from Breloom and Bullet Punch from Scizor, what's your point?
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 414-488 (93.66 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

This is what SSB was referring to...

Calcing the two strongest SE attacks in the metagame (that only barely KO... with NOOOOO investment) and claiming slaking isn't bulky makes you look incredibly dumb

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 66.51 - 78.28%
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 65.15 - 76.47%
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 64.02 - 75.79%
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 62.89 - 74.66%
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 45.7 - 53.84%



Run full hp? Subtract ~10% from all the calcs

Run full phy just for the hell of it?

252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slaking: 97.61 - 114.68%
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slaking: 40.27 - 48.01%


252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slaking: 285-336 (56.54 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This thing has the potential to stall out a NEUTRAL Kyurem-b outrage
 
I never claimed it wasn't bulky, in fact I said the opposite. Also, those calc's are very misleading. Why the hell would you be running max bulk? Those calcs mean nothing in a real game situation (you know, where no one would be running full bulk Slaking). Also, so what if it can live a SE hit? Many hard hitters can live an SE attack, so again, what is the point in using Slaking when there are so many better options.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
I never claimed it wasn't bulky, in fact I said the opposite. Also, those calc's are very misleading. Why the hell would you be running max bulk? Those calcs mean nothing in a real game situation (you know, where no one would be running full bulk Slaking). Also, so what if it can live a SE hit? Many hard hitters can live an SE attack, so again, what is the point in using Slaking when there are so many better options.
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Exactly how many hard hitters can live a super effect specs keldeo secret sword uninvested?

When alexander posted this, I was thinking, "what a dumb thing to ask. Obviously top of ou/ubers"

And then I scrolled and this ridiculous discussion unfolded.

If anyone truthfully believes that slaking wouldn't be ou, a trip to the next round of battling 101 is highly recommended
 
Why you keep saying slaking is inferior to other physical attackers? Seriously why? The only thing that is even comparable to it is kyurem b and maybe chomp. I'd definitely use slaking over salamence (cant switch in anything, get revenge killed nearly everytime it starts sweeping), dragonite (needs rapid spin to function and has problems with physical walls) and terrakion (weak to the most common attacks in the game, extremely vulnerable to priority).
 
Ok guys let's stop this conversation which has started becoming pointless. We all made our points and right now there isn't really much more to talk about... To fuel a new discussion here is something else:

What if Abomasnow had reliable recovery?

While Abomasnow is one of the best checks to Politoed and only fears Focus Blast and Toxic, status and SR wears it down really fast and prevents it from holding back Politoed for extended periods of time. With reliable recovery Abomasnow could be a real force to be reckoned with against rain teams and make its defensive sets much more viable in the metagame. It might be just what it needs to kind of be a really viable weather inducer... What do you think?
 
Something like protect/recover/blizzard/giga drain. It would probably outclass leech seed sets but i doubt it would make abomasnow more viable. Aboma really wants better defenses to stall threats with a recovery move.
 
alexwolf said:
Ok guys let's stop this conversation which has started becoming pointless. We all made our points and right now there isn't really much more to talk about... To fuel a new discussion here is something else:

What if Abomasnow had reliable recovery?

While Abomasnow is one of the best checks to Politoed and only fears Focus Blast and Toxic, status and SR wears it down really fast and prevents it from holding back Politoed for extended periods of time. With reliable recovery Abomasnow could be a real force to be reckoned with against rain teams and make its defensive sets much more viable in the metagame. It might be just what it needs to kind of be a really viable weather inducer... What do you think?
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Abomasnow has other problems, such as a weakness to common typing, stupid SR weakness, piss poor speed, underwhelming stats, etc. Reliable recovery would definitely help it win the weather war, but at the same time, Abomasnow has some major 4th moveslot syndrome. It really wants to run coverage to beat the likes of Politoed, Tyranitar, Steel-types, and still have room for Ice Shard or Blizzard. Giving it another useful move would only hurt its moveslot syndrome. It would be nice though, because the only weather starter with reliable recovery is Hippowdon, and look how successful it is at winning the weather. Abomasnow needs reliable recovery.
 
You realize Slaking is 2HKOing resists with Double-Edge, right? Also: You know how Kyurem-B sometimes runs sets with minimal Attack investment simply because he's got base 170 Attack to throw around? Take away 10 points and give Kyurem an infinitely better movepool and that is what Slaking could do. This discussion is fucking insane, Slaking would be top of OU with Pick Up and possibly Ubers with anything remotely useful.

Just in case some of you didn't get the memo, Choice Band Terrakion 2HKOs the metagame with the best STAB combination we have ever seen. Slaking 2HKOs the metagame with STAB and a small coverage movepool.

EDIT: Well, apparently we can't delete posts anymore and I took long enough to write this that the conversation moved elsewhere. Right on.
 
What really lets the Frost Tree Pokemon down is its typing and the lack of hail abusers that currently exist. Being 4 times weak to fire is nothing new to pokemon, but having another 6 weaknesses and only 4 resistances is. Because of this, along with its low speed, I can't see reliable recovery helping Abomasnow out too much.
 
Gary2346 said:
Abomasnow has other problems, such as a weakness to common typing, stupid SR weakness, piss poor speed, underwhelming stats, etc. Reliable recovery would definitely help it win the weather war, but at the same time, Abomasnow has some major 4th moveslot syndrome. It really wants to run coverage to beat the likes of Politoed, Tyranitar, Steel-types, and still have room for Ice Shard or Blizzard. Giving it another useful move would only hurt its moveslot syndrome. It would be nice though, because the only weather starter with reliable recovery is Hippowdon, and look how successful it is at winning the weather. Abomasnow needs reliable recovery.
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Yeah i agree that offensive sets of Abomasnow kind of have a slight 4MSS, but the defensive ones not so much. Just give up Leech Seed for Recover and use Ice Shard, Wood Hammer / Giga Drain, Hidden Power Fire or Blizzard or even EQ. The physical attacker can also just replace Leech Seed with Recover and be done with it. And yeah Hippo is the only weather inducer with reliable recovery and it doesn't even fare well against rain, yet look how much of a bitch sand stall teams make rain teams. Hail Stall could even make a comeback if Aboma had reliable recovery.
 
What if Darkrai didn't get Dark Void? Would it still be broken?

Darkrai was a huge force to be reckoned with for during its short stint in OU during the BW1 era. It was fast, powerful, and had access to both Nasty Plot and Dark Void, making it a perfect setup sweeper. Its blazing 125 base speed let it outpace most of the unboosted metagame, and it could pretty much guarantee a free NP boost after something was put to sleep. Dark Pulse and Focus Blast is near perfect coverage, making it almost impossible to hard counter. On top of that, Darkrai isn't even that frail, with solid 70/90/90 defensive stats. Darkrai was, to put it simple, a perfect sweeper. Nothing could really stop it from sweeping other than priority Mach Punch or a powerful U-turn from Scizor. Terrakion was a great check to it, but that was about it. You HAD to have something to revenge kill Darkrai on your team, or else you were always going to get swept.

Now after saying all that, was Dark Void the only reason that Darkrai was banned to Ubers? It's so powerful, fast, and access to Nasty Plot still makes it an extremely potent sweeper. It would no longer have as easy of a time setting up a boost, but a plus is that it could run another coverage move like HP Ice for Landorus-T and Garchomp, or HP Fire for Scizor. I don't think Darkrai would be nearly as successful in Ubers without Dark Void, but in OU, it would still be such an amazing sweeper that I think it would still be a bit too much for OU. Heck, it wouldn't even need to setup every time. 135 base SpA is high enough already, and with some kind of Hidden Power, Darkrai would be a potent revenge killer on top of the ability to sweep teams when given the chance to setup.
 
Lets put it this way. Dark Void guarantes a free setup turn a free kill. Darkrai mere presence nearly always guarante a free setup turn and a free kill. So honsetly, yes, it would still be broken. This is basically a pokemon that outspeeds the entire tier bar jolteon and whose sp atk is tied with freaking alakazam. Tbh i think a better question would be ''What if darkrai didnt had nasty plot''. Without nasty plot darkrai cant run through teams easily nor can it break through sp walls. By the way darkai has ice beam so it could run ice beam+hp fire in the same set.
 
Darkrai seems like it would be something similar to Alakazam; strong and fast as hell and puts every pokemon in danger every time its on the field. I wasn't around for the early BW1 days but it seems like it caused hell when it was here in OU. Personally, it would be a bitch to deal with still, but it wouldn't have that free turn of set up. It would definitely be a top tier threat and possibly broken still based on sheer power, coverage, and nasty plot alone.
 
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