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Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

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Clamperl sounds pretty easily stopped by priority...

As for Gorebyss...

...Chansey? Shedinja if it's not running something to hit it?

Specially Defensive Subseed Ludicolo might actually do it...
 
Just saying, but Clamperl's physical bulk is roughly the same as Rotom-W so priority isn't a surefire way to stop it even after a defense drop.
Besides its mono-water type makes it resistant or neutral to every priority move.
 
Clamperl sounds pretty easily stopped by priority...

As for Gorebyss...

...Chansey? Shedinja if it's not running something to hit it?

Specially Defensive Subseed Ludicolo might actually do it...

Gorebyss?
Shedinja
Milotic + Haze
Mantine
Cresselia + Sun
Regice + Sun
Registeel + Sun
any special wall + sun...?

Well, Shellpass is broken anyway.


Sawsbuck... meh, Skarm, Gurdurr, Drifblim, Bouffalant and... Shedinja :D

Clamperl... Base 47 Speed, come on, any good scarfer can check it.
 
With help of the strategy pokedex I tried to find some counters to the "powerhouses" that are being talked about.

Sawsbuck:
- Skarmory as stated above
- (Levitating) Ghosts: Haunter resists all moves Sawsbuck has (being immune to three of them), Haunter gets the +15 boost in this tier which could make a defensive eviolite build viable, especially seeing it has 130 SpA and 110 Spe, so even uninvested it will do harm; Eviolite Misdreavus does get hit by Horn Leech, but I would have to see calcs if this would be a counter/check to Sawsbuck; Drifblim?; Cofagrigus and Dusclops/Dusknoir are bulky enough and can WoW; Sableye can abuse Prankster to WoW
- Tangrowth/Eviolite Tangela (probably would have to run HP Ice to counter it)
- Armaldo
- Crobat / Eviolite Golbat?
- Mach Punch revenge kills
- Ice Shard revenge kills (notably Eviolite Piloswine)
- Shedinja
- Eviolite Dragons?
- Ferrothorn only fears JK, which it can actually abuse with Protect and fellow ghost-types.
- Ninjask outspeeds after 1 Speed Boost (using Protect to get it) and can kill it with X-Scissor.

About eviolite dragon-types I haven't seen much (if any) of them, while they have quite some resists, especially vs sun-teams who abuse grass/fire coverage. Dragonair and Shelgon are quite bulky with the +15 boost and eviolite and have the stats/movepool to dent teams.


Cresselia:
- Things that made it drop from OU: especially Scizor & Tyranitar.
- Things that countered it in UU: Escavalier, Weavile, Houndoom, Bisharp
- Taunt/Trick
- Setup sweepers that dont mind status, wether it be by using a sub or by using Rest/Shed Skin/...; Scrafty comes to mind, being immune to Psychic and taking almost nothing from any other coverage move Cress might be running while DD'ing up. ChestoRest abusers like Volcarona and Snorlax will also steamroll this duck. Especially Volcarona is a nightmare for Cresselia, it can boost it's SpD along it's SpA so it doesnt mind the boosted Psychics and takes advantage of the Sun that might back up Cresselia.


Special SS (Clamperl & Gorebyss):
- Still has pitiful speed after one boost so any scarfer takes it on. Clamperl also has a hard time to setup a SS, seeing it is not carrying eviolite.
- Empoleon can take all hits, except HP Electric, and Roar it out (not sure how much Grass Knot does).
- Ferrothorn/Ferroseed
- If running HP Electric: Quagsire doesnt mind the boosts and can Yawn, not sure how much it would take from Ice Beam tho. Not sure either about Gastrodon, Seismitoad and Swampert.
- Snorlax/Eviolite Munchlax?
- Mantine/Eviolite Mantyke if not running HP Electric.
- Lanturn if not running HP Grass.
- Shedinja
- Special Walls like Cresselia/Chansey/Blissey/Regice/Dusclops/Dusknoir/... can survive atleast one hit most of the time.


Physical SS (Huntail):
- Carracosta
- Alomomola
- Weezing
- Gyarados
- Unaware Quagsire
- Choice Scarfers
- Shedinja
- Ferrothorn/Ferroseed
- Empoleon

Problem with Huntail is that it mostly carries one special attack, might it be Ice Beam or HP Grass/Electric. Kinda depends on what it runs to get more counters.


Funny how Shedinja counters all of them, except Cresselia as it usually runs toxic.
 
Adding to Mr Omgness's list, Specially defensive Ludicolo and Lapras both take <50% from Gorebyss HP Grass at +2. Ludicolo can go straight for the Giga Drain or try SubSeeding, whereas Lapras can easily wear them down if Rain is up. Haven't run calcs on how much they take attacks from Clamperl, but I'm sure they survive any +2 attack and can OHKO a -1 Clamperl.
 
The problem with those is Baton Pass, which It's incredibly annoying since with it you would likely remove half if not almost all of their counters, though without it it becomes a lot less annoying
 
The problem with those is Baton Pass, which It's incredibly annoying since with it you would likely remove half if not almost all of their counters, though without it it becomes a lot less annoying

Well it's impossible to make a list of counters to SS receivers as it can be anything but since BPSS requires atleast 2 turns of setup, phazers are your best bet. Running BP means that Gorebyss/Huntail lose a coverage move (most likely HP) which means Empoleon and Quagsire are hard counters; they can switch in on the SS and Yawn/Roar.

If he decides to run HP Electric/Grass anyway over Ice Beam, a plethora of grass-types become a hard counter: Prankster Whimsicott, Celebi, Virizion, Cradily,... Altho they would have to carry a phazing move (except for Whimsicott); Celebi gets perish song and Virizion gets Roar
 
With help of the strategy pokedex I tried to find some counters to the "powerhouses" that are being talked about.

Sawsbuck:
- Skarmory as stated above
- (Levitating) Ghosts: Haunter resists all moves Sawsbuck has (being immune to three of them), Haunter gets the +15 boost in this tier which could make a defensive eviolite build viable, especially seeing it has 130 SpA and 110 Spe, so even uninvested it will do harm; Eviolite Misdreavus does get hit by Horn Leech, but I would have to see calcs if this would be a counter/check to Sawsbuck; Drifblim?; Cofagrigus and Dusclops/Dusknoir are bulky enough and can WoW; Sableye can abuse Prankster to WoW
- Tangrowth/Eviolite Tangela (probably would have to run HP Ice to counter it)
- Armaldo
- Crobat / Eviolite Golbat?
- Mach Punch revenge kills
- Ice Shard revenge kills (notably Eviolite Piloswine)
- Shedinja
- Eviolite Dragons?
- Ferrothorn only fears JK, which it can actually abuse with Protect and fellow ghost-types.
- Ninjask outspeeds after 1 Speed Boost (using Protect to get it) and can kill it with X-Scissor.
Thanks, that's a big help. Some concerns though:
(I ran these calcs with swords dance, as that is what I've seen every Sawsbuck do on the turn when you switch to a counter.
Armaldo takes 40% from Nature power and Jump Kick, and 45% from Horn Leech with full defensive build. This better be the first thing it fights, and it needs to OHKO with no offensive investment. (It does not)
Crobat handles everything but Return, which does 70%, again with max defensive investment. It can come in once if there are no rocks, in which case it must OHKO (which it might with rocks), or roost if the next pokemon to enter can't threaten it.
Shelgon, the most defensive Dragon I assume (with 115 base defense) takes 40% from Return (again max defense). That might work, but Outrage does less than 50% without Atk Evs.
Ferrothorn fears Nature Power as well. It takes 40% from it with max defense, which isn't recommended as it leaves the Special open. (Though Ferro is prone to random hp fire under the sun anyhow.) It must rely on leftovers recovery, and Gyroball won't be doing enough to end Sawsbuck in one shot. Again, this either needs to be the only thing it fights or you can thunderwave and sac it. (which didn't always work, as Sawsbuck tended to enter end game.)
Also, 252 Atk Adamant Mach Punch from Conkeldurr does 60%

Still, Skarmory, Haunter, and Shedinja work without super special conditions.

As for the other threats... I don't want to run calcs all morning.
 
Gorebyss and Clamperl carrying Baton Pass are easier to counter themselves because they only get 2 attack moves. There are plenty of pokemon that will resist Water+Grass or Ice so the list grows.
 
Well, any grass type resists grass+water or electric+water, and any water type resists grass+ice, so yeah, they're pretty easy to switch into with that third move.
 

Thanks, that's a big help. Some concerns though:
(I ran these calcs with swords dance, as that is what I've seen every Sawsbuck do on the turn when you switch to a counter.
Armaldo takes 40% from Nature power and Jump Kick, and 45% from Horn Leech with full defensive build. This better be the first thing it fights, and it needs to OHKO with no offensive investment. (It does not)
Crobat handles everything but Return, which does 70%, again with max defensive investment. It can come in once if there are no rocks, in which case it must OHKO (which it might with rocks), or roost if the next pokemon to enter can't threaten it.
Shelgon, the most defensive Dragon I assume (with 115 base defense) takes 40% from Return (again max defense). That might work, but Outrage does less than 50% without Atk Evs.
Ferrothorn fears Nature Power as well. It takes 40% from it with max defense, which isn't recommended as it leaves the Special open. (Though Ferro is prone to random hp fire under the sun anyhow.) It must rely on leftovers recovery, and Gyroball won't be doing enough to end Sawsbuck in one shot. Again, this either needs to be the only thing it fights or you can thunderwave and sac it. (which didn't always work, as Sawsbuck tended to enter end game.)
Also, 252 Atk Adamant Mach Punch from Conkeldurr does 60%

Still, Skarmory, Haunter, and Shedinja work without super special conditions.

As for the other threats... I don't want to run calcs all morning.

Did some calcs myself: These calcs run max HP and Def on the defending pokemon and max Attack on +2 Sawsbuck:

- Armaldo takes max 38% from Horn Leech, meaning it can be 2HKOed if stealth rock are up and it's not carrying leftovers, so we can safely assume this is only a 3HKO. X-Scissor does 80-96%.

- Haunter is a hard counter, Horn Leech deals 23% max, meaning it cant even break a sub. Still, it's questionable if Eviolite Haunter is a good build outside of countering Sawsbuck.

- Misdreavus & Cofagrigus both take 30-37% from Horn Leech. Also note that if Sawsbuck attacks Cofagrigus it loses it's ability!

- Drifblim takes 17-21% from Horn Leech.

- Dusclops takes 25-30% from Horn Leech.

- Tangela takes 33-39% from Double-Edge, Tangrowth takes 41-49% meaning it has a good chance to get 2HKOed with SR up. HP Ice does about 50% for Tangrowth, a bit less for Tangela, but it's a 2HKO factoring in recoil from Double-Edge.

- Eviolite Golbat takes 41-49 % from Double-Edge.

- Eviolite Shelgon takes 36-43% from Double-Edge.

- Skarmory takes 28-34% from Jump Kick.

- Eviolite Piloswine takes 43-51% from Horn Leech! Even though this is a 2HKO it shows how bulky this guy is, that is a super-effective hit. Ice Shard does 34-42%.

I did not add life orb, but you can get the idea (I did pick Double-Edge over Return). Do mind that with life orb, counters have an easier time killing it too. Bigger chance that Armaldo does OHKO p.e. Apparently the best counters are Drifblim & Cofagrigus (due to Mummy), haha.


Additions to the list of counters/checks/options:
- Shuckle (haha).
- If Porygon2 invests fully in defense it loses 32-39% to Jump Kick. It can T-Wave Sawsbuck and then Recover stall until he gets parahax to finish with Ice Beam and maybe even attempt a sweep with the chlorophyll ability.
- Bronzong takes 30-36% from Jump Kick, question is what it'll do against Sawsbuck: Gyro Ball, Dual Screens,...
- Crustle takes max 36% from Horn Leech, meaning it's defensive-wise a better option than Armaldo, but doesnt have the same offensive power as Armaldo.
- Cresselia takes 40-48% from Double-Edge, meaning that it can use moonlight to wear Sawsbuck down. If carrying life orb it cant afford to switch in tho, but head on Sawsbuck should die first due to recoil.
- Weezing can atleast live 1 double-edge (47-57%) and WoW Sawsbuck.
 
Found a real gem I thought I should share, searched the thread and found a similar set but it uses avalanche which is inferior.
photo-1061110.png

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Rest
This is definitely one of the best rain sweepers I have used so far. With great 145/100/95/100/110/75 stats, this thing is a real monster of the sea. Sets up on basically every defensive pokemon lacking phazing moves and becomes near impossible to kill in the rain. Waterfall for power and ensuring it is not stalled out, and Ice Shard for great priority vs sun teams and in general to counteract the speed drops from curse.
A good partner for this set would be Dugtrio or Gothitelle to help win the weather war and ensure rain is up. You might want a rapid spinner aswell since it is stealth rock weak but it's not really necessary since rest will heal you anyway. You should try this set out, it won't disappoint.
 
Found a real gem I thought I should share, searched the thread and found a similar set but it uses avalanche which is inferior.
photo-1061110.png

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Rest
This is definitely one of the best rain sweepers I have used so far. With great 145/100/95/100/110/75 stats, this thing is a real monster of the sea. Sets up on basically every defensive pokemon lacking phazing moves and becomes near impossible to kill in the rain. Waterfall for power and ensuring it is not stalled out, and Ice Shard for great priority vs sun teams and in general to counteract the speed drops from curse.
A good partner for this set would be Dugtrio or Gothitelle to help win the weather war and ensure rain is up. You might want a rapid spinner aswell since it is stealth rock weak but it's not really necessary since rest will heal you anyway. You should try this set out, it won't disappoint.

That guy is a fucking tank. I went from 4-1 to 1-0 during a match. Only thing that saved me was my CB Kyub scoring a lucky Crit right after a Rest.
 
Sawsbuck is quite possibly the most overrated Pokemon on the tier already.

Dubious too because it's dual STAB isn't that good...needs a SD to sweep and is vulnerable to priority.

It kinda just shows how much people are buying into the hype rather than just being sensical with teambuilding. Sawsbuck typically has no room to carry Jump Kick as it needs Nature Power, so the Ferro family walls it pretty easily. Offensive Heatran with its Air Balloon in tact sends it packing.

Gorebyss however is one of the biggest threats now but it is early gimped in sunlight.
 
Kabutops and Kingdra had average attack and speed with boosting speed and abilities. Yes, there were ways to work around them but swiftdrizzle ban kept the meta from being "play rain, or play to counter it."
Ferrothorn can sometimes KO Sawsbuck. Ferroseed can paralyze it. Neither wall it.
Sawsbuck is an end game sweep. If the opponent still has a Heatran on Air Balloon it's obviously not time to start swords dancing, or more sneakily yet purposely use return when it enters (since it will probably be the optimal switch in).
 
Yes and as such it has no business being hyped as some sort of meta defining mon.

End game sweepers are a dime a dozen and Sawsbuck isn't even particularly better than the bunch, have a large amount of hard counters and checks.

Even in the sun it's not that big of a standout, as people have been using crap like Jumpluff and having similar success.
 
Air Balloon is a very situational/unreliable item. It becomes useless the moment your Heatran takes a hit from anything at all. Is your Heatran going to be un-used the entire battle except as a Sawbuck counter? Even a Return or Horn Leech intended for someone else will pop that Balloon. Or a Return or Horn Leech successfully predicting your Balloon.

A "counter" that only works once on a successful predict and zero times on a failed predict is a pretty poor counter. Especially against a mon that can hit-and-run like Sawsbuck.

You have to realize, Sawsbuck doesn't have to set up. It can hit-and-run, it can revenge kill, it's a scarfer with no move-switching restrictions and LO-boosted attacks, and it can endgame sweep. Don't think of it as an SDer. Think of it as a hit-and-run attacker that can SD.
 
I've actually been using Curselax very successfully. With Immunity, it can't be toxic-stalled, and with giant special bulk and good physical bulk, it can prove almost unstoppable. Uts main problem is lack of recovery. I've even beaten full-health Skarmory with Curse/Crunch/Body Slam/Earthquake.
 
Found a real gem I thought I should share, searched the thread and found a similar set but it uses avalanche which is inferior.
photo-1061110.png

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Rest
This is definitely one of the best rain sweepers I have used so far. With great 145/100/95/100/110/75 stats, this thing is a real monster of the sea. Sets up on basically every defensive pokemon lacking phazing moves and becomes near impossible to kill in the rain. Waterfall for power and ensuring it is not stalled out, and Ice Shard for great priority vs sun teams and in general to counteract the speed drops from curse.
A good partner for this set would be Dugtrio or Gothitelle to help win the weather war and ensure rain is up. You might want a rapid spinner aswell since it is stealth rock weak but it's not really necessary since rest will heal you anyway. You should try this set out, it won't disappoint.

See, I wouldn't say Avalanche is "inferior" to Ice Shart at all. I'll tell you why.

1) Lapras is so damn bulky with max SpDef and a couple Curse boosts that nothing is killing it without a crit anyway, so priority doesn't even matter.

2) Avalanche doubles to a base power of 130 (before STAB) if Lapras incurs damage in that turn, which it almost always will due to Curse speed drops. The opponent essentially has to damage you anyway, since trying to Status you won't work due to Hydration. This is more than THREE TIMES the power of Ice Shart, which even at +3 or +4 won't be KOing many things without an SE hit.

3) Lapras isn't designed to pick off weaker foes in the first place. It's designed to be a slow boosting heavy tank that sets up and then plows through teams.
 
Air Balloon is a very situational/unreliable item. It becomes useless the moment your Heatran takes a hit from anything at all. Is your Heatran going to be un-used the entire battle except as a Sawbuck counter? Even a Return or Horn Leech intended for someone else will pop that Balloon. Or a Return or Horn Leech successfully predicting your Balloon.

A "counter" that only works once on a successful predict and zero times on a failed predict is a pretty poor counter. Especially against a mon that can hit-and-run like Sawsbuck.

You have to realize, Sawsbuck doesn't have to set up. It can hit-and-run, it can revenge kill, it's a scarfer with no move-switching restrictions and LO-boosted attacks, and it can endgame sweep. Don't think of it as an SDer. Think of it as a hit-and-run attacker that can SD.


I wasn't speaking about offensive Heatran in particular, it is a check, not a counter.

However the problem with that is that Heatran is himself very threatening boosted by the sun. Although this is likely why I see a lot of Sun teams running Cresselia.

The weird thing to me about this tier that it seems to be forgotten thy Ninetails is susceptible to so many trappers that it makes it hard to win the weather war.

Perhaps the main reason for Sun dominance is that people aren't playing rain or are playing too much weather less.

Sun seems to match up well against Sand in my experience, and personally I prefer Big Hippo over TTar in this meta.
 
I'd like to share a pretty cool discovery:

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Marowak @ Thick Club
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stone Edge

I'm not the best at explaining things through words, so I'll let the calcs do the talking:

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 277-326 (59.69 - 70.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.56 - 77.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 370-436 (88.09 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 378-445 (98.43 - 115.88%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Yeah, so Marowak is pretty much a beast with a little bit of support. Easily 2HKOing the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier with neutral coverage moves isn't something every 'mon can do. Now, of course it does need some support, but it's actually less than you'd expect. 60 base speed isn't doing it any favors, so of course it loves paralysis support, or even being passed Speed Boosts. The nice thing is that with Tier Shift, Marowak is no longer as frail - 85/125/95 defenses are quite nice, and it can come in on Regirock or Tyranitar very comfortably, two Pokemon that tend to give Sun teams a bit of trouble. I found this to be an excellent wallbreaker for something like Sawsbuck to clean up, as it puts a lot of pressure on Skarmory to switch in and be forced to phase 'Wak out immediately. Not having to take Life Orb damage is just another bonus.

So what do you guys think? I tried out 'Wak for a few battles, and I found it pretty awesome, although I'm not the best battler out there.
 
Marowak @ Thick Club
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stone Edge

I'm not the best at explaining things through words, so I'll let the calcs do the talking:

+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 277-326 (59.69 - 70.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.56 - 77.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 370-436 (88.09 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 378-445 (98.43 - 115.88%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Yeah, so Marowak is pretty much a beast with a little bit of support. Easily 2HKOing the most physically bulky Pokemon in the tier with neutral coverage moves isn't something every 'mon can do. Now, of course it does need some support, but it's actually less than you'd expect. 60 base speed isn't doing it any favors, so of course it loves paralysis support, or even being passed Speed Boosts. The nice thing is that with Tier Shift, Marowak is no longer as frail - 85/125/95 defenses are quite nice, and it can come in on Regirock or Tyranitar very comfortably, two Pokemon that tend to give Sun teams a bit of trouble. I found this to be an excellent wallbreaker for something like Sawsbuck to clean up, as it puts a lot of pressure on Skarmory to switch in and be forced to phase 'Wak out immediately. Not having to take Life Orb damage is just another bonus.

So what do you guys think? I tried out 'Wak for a few battles, and I found it pretty awesome, although I'm not the best battler out there.

I think Marowak hasn't changed much other than the fact that it hits even harder now. It's still an utter beast in Trick Room teams, which I think is better than having to rely on paralyze to slow down everything.

Speaking of Trick Room, I think that might be a good answer to those who are having trouble with Smashpassers. You can take advantage of their boosted speed and KO them before they have a chance to pass/attack.
 
Regarding trickroom, I've found decent results with a banded relicanth in trickroom. 105 Atk after the tier boost doesnt sound like much, but factoring in that your going to be spamming head smash, and that your choice banded it does tremendous amounts of damage. It's decently bulky on the physical side so it's possible to switch it in on physical attacks. 115/145/80 defenses are good uninvested
 
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