As i believe I stated previously, urkerab(the one who coded the meta) already told me coding wise he doesnt know to make it work so that it doesnt do that, its a matter of the fact of coding limits that stealth rock does this first turn. Now the other things I cant confirm personally, I may try and answer if i can figure it out but hopefulyl someone else can
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Metagame Trademarked
- Thread starter Whitephoenixace
- Start date
As i believe I stated previously, urkerab(the one who coded the meta) already told me coding wise he doesnt know to make it work so that it doesnt do that, its a matter of the fact of coding limits that stealth rock does this first turn. Now the other things I cant confirm personally, I may try and answer if i can figure it out but hopefulyl someone else can
Confirming as HUS Mengy:
I'm voting ban.
Here's the team I used for the test:
Here's an RMT I wrote about the updated version of the team:
Unrelated to the whole reqs thing, did you know that there's a way to bypass the Endless Battle Clause possible in Trademarked?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-905123151
Perhaps another reason to look into the Mirror Move/Me First thing
I'm voting ban.
Hoopa is very strong, and while the biggest threats in the tier are Substitute, Wish, and the moves that Ktütverde mentioned, if we do not have the option to ban Substitute, Hoopa should go.
I think people have not realized just how incredibly difficult it is to play around Substitute, with or without Hoopa-U. Every turn is a 50/50 where if you don't attack and the opponent switches out (or U-turns or Volts out) into their sub mon, you completely lose momentum and often the whole game. Switching out into a Sub mon is also low risk, since if you switch into a sub mon and they attack, you just lose 25% of your HP (+ hazards).
Switching in general is amazing because it allows you to activate an ability, so why are people not using Eject Button as an item more? Not only does it allow you to switch in a mon for free but it also cancels your opponent's U-turn or Volt Switch to give you switch initiative.
I got reqs with a volt-turn team which used Eject Button + Sub Tran as well as the Me First + Mirror Move combo. My losses were to Keldeo teams. I definitely overlooked Keldeo because it's weak to Pex and Magearna, but having the option to use Sub or CM as an ability and Scarf or Z as an item, it is less predictable than you would think.
I'm not sure if this is the place for this comment, but in my opinion a 2-week-long suspect test for a monthly OM is too long. I was able to get reqs in a day and I think other people will be able to comfortably find the time to reach an opinion as well.
Shoutouts to vivalospride who told me how to use spoiler tags and sketchy ecchi, DrReuniclus, and DubFreaknakeeb for helping test my teams. Thanks also to pokeisfun who has been my friend for a long time but more importantly spectated a few of my games and said something vaguely inspirational before logging off ㋛
I think people have not realized just how incredibly difficult it is to play around Substitute, with or without Hoopa-U. Every turn is a 50/50 where if you don't attack and the opponent switches out (or U-turns or Volts out) into their sub mon, you completely lose momentum and often the whole game. Switching out into a Sub mon is also low risk, since if you switch into a sub mon and they attack, you just lose 25% of your HP (+ hazards).
Switching in general is amazing because it allows you to activate an ability, so why are people not using Eject Button as an item more? Not only does it allow you to switch in a mon for free but it also cancels your opponent's U-turn or Volt Switch to give you switch initiative.
I got reqs with a volt-turn team which used Eject Button + Sub Tran as well as the Me First + Mirror Move combo. My losses were to Keldeo teams. I definitely overlooked Keldeo because it's weak to Pex and Magearna, but having the option to use Sub or CM as an ability and Scarf or Z as an item, it is less predictable than you would think.
I'm not sure if this is the place for this comment, but in my opinion a 2-week-long suspect test for a monthly OM is too long. I was able to get reqs in a day and I think other people will be able to comfortably find the time to reach an opinion as well.
Shoutouts to vivalospride who told me how to use spoiler tags and sketchy ecchi, DrReuniclus, and DubFreaknakeeb for helping test my teams. Thanks also to pokeisfun who has been my friend for a long time but more importantly spectated a few of my games and said something vaguely inspirational before logging off ㋛
Here's the team I used for the test:
Here's an RMT I wrote about the updated version of the team:
Unrelated to the whole reqs thing, did you know that there's a way to bypass the Endless Battle Clause possible in Trademarked?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-905123151
Perhaps another reason to look into the Mirror Move/Me First thing
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Confirming as HUS Mengy:
I'm voting ban.
Reasoning:
Hoopa is very strong, and while the biggest threats in the tier are Substitute, Wish, and the moves that Ktütverde mentioned, if we do not have the option to ban Substitute, Hoopa should go.
I think people have not realized just how incredibly difficult it is to play around Substitute, with or without Hoopa-U. Every turn is a 50/50 where if you don't attack and the opponent switches out (or U-turns or Volts out) into their sub mon, you completely lose momentum and often the whole game. Switching out into a Sub mon is also low risk, since if you switch into a sub mon and they attack, you just lose 25% of your HP (+ hazards).
Switching in general is amazing because it allows you to activate an ability, so why are people not using Eject Button as an item more? Not only does it allow you to switch in a mon for free but it also cancels your opponent's U-turn or Volt Switch to give you switch initiative.
I got reqs with a volt-turn team which used Eject Button + Sub Tran as well as the Me First + Mirror Move combo. My losses were to Keldeo teams. I definitely overlooked Keldeo because it's weak to Pex and Magearna, but having the option to use Sub or CM as an ability and Scarf or Z as an item, it is less predictable than you would think.
I'm not sure if this is the place for this comment, but in my opinion a 2-week-long suspect test for a monthly OM is too long. I was able to get reqs in a day and I think other people will be able to comfortably find the time to reach an opinion as well.
Shoutouts to vivalospride who told me how to use spoiler tags and sketchy ecchi, DrReuniclus, and DubFreaknakeeb for helping test my teams. Thanks also to pokeisfun who has been my friend for a long time but more importantly spectated a few of my games and said something vaguely inspirational before logging off ㋛
Here's the team I used for the test:
https://pokepast.es/5e03a6563db9598d
If people are interested I could write up a thing about it, it's a fun team and I put a lot of time into it. Despite its cheesy appearance I think it is really strong and uses some of the tactics that are most unique to Trademarked.
Unrelated to the whole reqs thing, did you know that there's a way to bypass the Endless Battle Clause possible in Trademarked?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-905123151
Perhaps another reason to look into the Mirror Move/Me First thing
the wow react is in reference to the strat you discovered, not surprise that you made reqs btw
do u need to make a post only to say this pif smh
otherwise I wanted to say substitute is a move I've been liking a lot since it's the mos reliable way to check stuff like @ tailglow xurkitree or any random setup user. Tho I agree with sub being borderline broken since it can be used very well for other purposes (stuff like @ sub + focuspunch buzzwole for example is a nightmare). @ sub + @ wish is also totally stupid since you will always get your wish going cuz u dont even need to click it and then u switch into the @ sub mon that just loses 25% upon entry no matter what attack it his hurt by and then just gets back to full. I've faced one team utilizing that combo + @ thunderwave and thats tremendously painful.
I haven't used @ sub to its full potential, wanted to use it a "balanced" way (extremely rewarding tbh), ie as a reliable stop to sometimes stupid setup sweepers (like kartana xurkitree or volcarona):
Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: substitute
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Flash Cannon
However there are too many viable @ sub users, and it kinda destroys any attempt at finding a good offensive gameplan: for example, focus sash would have been kinda uncompetitive if stealth rock didn't exist (you could always stop a sweep by just keeping your sash user(s) healthy); in the same way, sub is uncompetitive because it makes revenge killing and/or setting up 100% safe. If there was a way to cancel the sub, there wouldn't be problems. But there is not such a thing except sound moves like bug buzz, boomburst (or hyperspace fury). That's why I believe @ substitute is an outright uncompetitive move and should be banned regardless of what happens to Hoopa-U.
This should absolutely not be allowed, its clearly uncompetitive.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906664455
Skip ahead to turn 58. My opponent uses Me First and Mirror Move to use volt switch an infinite amount on the same turn.
Tagging The Immortal
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Refer to post 164 where i outlined why i didnt ban it. The Immortal is there a way we can make it so me first and mirror move cant be on the same team or is there anyway we can clause it to prevent this from happening. Cause I feel banning either of them doesnt make sense as they are not broken in their own right
[12:45:43] SirSoundCloud: how does stomping tantrum work with trademarks?
[12:46:21] SirSoundCloud: maybe on a stealth rock setter
[12:46:36] SirSoundCloud: so even if stealth rocks are already up you still have a 150bp move
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906732281
Interesting interaction, stomping tantrum doubles in power when its trademark fails. A pokemon like Garchomp, who gets both stealth rocks and stomping tantrum can be combined with a bulky u-turn healer like scizor to get pretty consistent 150bp stomping tantrums.
Also worth noting that tantrum's power isn't reduced by grassy terrain.
Garchomp @ Rockium Z
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Roost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- something (maybe defog? probably not though since you don't want to remove your own rocks)
- something
Another cool set that I think could work, scarf revenge killer Garchomp outspeeds and slams with a 150bp tantrum
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Shadow Claw
- Fire Blast
[12:46:21] SirSoundCloud: maybe on a stealth rock setter
[12:46:36] SirSoundCloud: so even if stealth rocks are already up you still have a 150bp move
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906732281
Interesting interaction, stomping tantrum doubles in power when its trademark fails. A pokemon like Garchomp, who gets both stealth rocks and stomping tantrum can be combined with a bulky u-turn healer like scizor to get pretty consistent 150bp stomping tantrums.
Also worth noting that tantrum's power isn't reduced by grassy terrain.
Garchomp @ Rockium Z
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Roost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- something (maybe defog? probably not though since you don't want to remove your own rocks)
- something
Another cool set that I think could work, scarf revenge killer Garchomp outspeeds and slams with a 150bp tantrum
Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Shadow Claw
- Fire Blast
No just ban them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906760975idk if this doesn't display a clear issue with a couple things ...
-> Me first + mirror move is dumb and should not exist.
-> Metronome got activated so ridiculously often here most of the time forming a real danger just because it's a free move every turn
-> King shield provides smeargle with 85% guaranteed switches which makes beating a mon impossible unless misplays.
-> Me first + mirror move is dumb and should not exist.
-> Metronome got activated so ridiculously often here most of the time forming a real danger just because it's a free move every turn
-> King shield provides smeargle with 85% guaranteed switches which makes beating a mon impossible unless misplays.
So not the meta I'm best at, but I think I managed a few neat sets. This meta does help set Pokemon up a turn sooner if they usually have multiple phase setup, and one of the ones I saw first was:
Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: substitute
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
May be lacking Dragon coverage, but I haven't exactly seen many Dragon types. Substitute gives Kommo-o an initial immunity to many trademarks that would otherwise cripple it, and gives it a barrier to tank a hit from unfavorable matchups. And of course, the set functions like a normal SubDrum set that Kommo-o would usually run, except you free up a turn and moveslot in the setup process. If you play it right with the Substitute, you can probably deal with a Trick Room Stakataka. It may not like Hazers, but most of the common ones like Toxapex don't appreciate even much in the way of unboosted attacks from Kommo-o.
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: psychicterrain
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
Wait, I'm not in AAA? Oh well. Psychic Terrain prevents priority and boosts his Psyshock to absurd levels like normal, but past that boost, Mega Alakazam really shines in the tier. Trace means that switching in can be SERIOUSLY beneficial in some situations. For example, against Stakataka, you can disable his Trick Room, which usually forces the opposing player to switch out, giving you a turn to set up or some free damage. The splashability that Trace has in this Metagame cannot be overstated. You can either turn their own power against them or negate it. He takes some good switches to still be useful with his low bulk, and his one off Psychic Terrain, but good nonetheless.
Barbaracle @ Choice Band
Ability: shellsmash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Last one is a pretty basic one that I'm actually surprised I've not seen ran by anyone else yet. Banded Shell Smash Barbaracle hits like a TRUCK, with an Attack stat of... I believe it ends up coming out to 1017. The coverage means its hard to wall, and a Choice Band means that it'll still be hitting hard even after being hit with a Will o Wisp or Haze. Even when they resist your attacks, it'll take a huge dent out of them. And if he's hazed, just switch him out and toss him back in when things look good. He can't take much of a hit, but when you one shot everything, you don't really need to
Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: substitute
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
May be lacking Dragon coverage, but I haven't exactly seen many Dragon types. Substitute gives Kommo-o an initial immunity to many trademarks that would otherwise cripple it, and gives it a barrier to tank a hit from unfavorable matchups. And of course, the set functions like a normal SubDrum set that Kommo-o would usually run, except you free up a turn and moveslot in the setup process. If you play it right with the Substitute, you can probably deal with a Trick Room Stakataka. It may not like Hazers, but most of the common ones like Toxapex don't appreciate even much in the way of unboosted attacks from Kommo-o.
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: psychicterrain
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
Wait, I'm not in AAA? Oh well. Psychic Terrain prevents priority and boosts his Psyshock to absurd levels like normal, but past that boost, Mega Alakazam really shines in the tier. Trace means that switching in can be SERIOUSLY beneficial in some situations. For example, against Stakataka, you can disable his Trick Room, which usually forces the opposing player to switch out, giving you a turn to set up or some free damage. The splashability that Trace has in this Metagame cannot be overstated. You can either turn their own power against them or negate it. He takes some good switches to still be useful with his low bulk, and his one off Psychic Terrain, but good nonetheless.
Barbaracle @ Choice Band
Ability: shellsmash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Last one is a pretty basic one that I'm actually surprised I've not seen ran by anyone else yet. Banded Shell Smash Barbaracle hits like a TRUCK, with an Attack stat of... I believe it ends up coming out to 1017. The coverage means its hard to wall, and a Choice Band means that it'll still be hitting hard even after being hit with a Will o Wisp or Haze. Even when they resist your attacks, it'll take a huge dent out of them. And if he's hazed, just switch him out and toss him back in when things look good. He can't take much of a hit, but when you one shot everything, you don't really need to
Discouraging Magearna from Volt Switching against Celesteela (as an example) or getting completely punked after Celesteela presses Protect on the Volt Switch, then Team Magearna finds that the opponent wasn't running Transform Mew and Dual Screens Tapu Koko and the duo KO Magearna in 1 turn doesn't seem quite balanced to me, especially when Celesteela can easily repeat the same trick against Landorus-T's U-turn. Me First-Mirror Move is prevented from spiraling out of control by entry hazards...until they use a Defog trademark user and quite possibly a secondary Defogger. Rocky Helmet might also help stem the bleeding...until Knock Off and Trick/Switcheroo happen.
I still think neither Me First nor Mirror Move are broken on their own, though--Me First often opens up its trademark user to getting attacked, and Mirror Move either needs to be slow pivoted in, come in after a KO, or for a move to be used on the previous guy instead of a switch.
Posting again lmao, I love this meta and how people keep discovering and sharing stuff. I managed to get two good replays showing:
1) How insane substitute is (especially when paired with wish chansey): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906859397
Buzzwole decimates an entire team with @ sub +focus punch, and also acts as the anti-@ trickroom stakataka
2) this one shows how insane @ trickroom is once the @ sub user is out of the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906854117
That's not hoopa-u but staka but that thing is common as hell and u need a steeltype with earthquake to beat it if you don't have @ sub . Staka is prolly the best user, but u can always use another mon to surprise would-be staka checks.
What do you guys think about @ trickroom in a sub-free battle/meta? I find it pretty insane since standard anti-sweep pokémons such as @ rock polish landorus, @ swords dance scarf kartana among others can do anything.
Also here's a team I've been using, works pretty well with @ toxicspikes + @ wish + @ sub . I just gave @ trickroom to diancie so as to cancel staka's @ trickroom , i had been using iron defense but was totally meh.
1) How insane substitute is (especially when paired with wish chansey): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906859397
Buzzwole decimates an entire team with @ sub +focus punch, and also acts as the anti-@ trickroom stakataka
2) this one shows how insane @ trickroom is once the @ sub user is out of the game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-906854117
That's not hoopa-u but staka but that thing is common as hell and u need a steeltype with earthquake to beat it if you don't have @ sub . Staka is prolly the best user, but u can always use another mon to surprise would-be staka checks.
What do you guys think about @ trickroom in a sub-free battle/meta? I find it pretty insane since standard anti-sweep pokémons such as @ rock polish landorus, @ swords dance scarf kartana among others can do anything.
Also here's a team I've been using, works pretty well with @ toxicspikes + @ wish + @ sub . I just gave @ trickroom to diancie so as to cancel staka's @ trickroom , i had been using iron defense but was totally meh.
Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Spikes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Low Kick
Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Trick Room
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earth Power
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Wish
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Ability: Toxic Spikes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Low Kick
Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Trick Room
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earth Power
Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Wish
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- Knock Off
- U-turn
well on that note then at least for now to deal with the immediate issue (that and people have been telling me i have been giving kings shield special exception which I probably shouldnt have) KINGS SHIELD is now BANNED as a Trademark. There are probably possibilities where a similar situation can be used with protect as a move instead, however i genuinely feel that case has less safety than the likes of smeargle can provide with kings shield and is easier to avoid with less repercussions. But for now at least I am just getting kings shield out of the way for the sake of the loops
that depends on your team bud and honestly i feel could have been better asked in the om room than here for a quick answer. Personally i prefer manaphy though cause it has a better speed tier even if not the same level of raw power xurk has
Hi! I really like this meta, but people seem to be struggling against stakataka so i wanted to post my personal favorite counter to stak,
Cofagrigus!
Heres the set i use (credit to lady gaga da pan for making it )
The reason why i like this so much is just how defensive it is, its incredibly useful to cripple physical mons and a great counter to stakataka. it has a low speed stat making it very fast in tr, and for a defensive mon it does p decent damage with hex after you get the status in. If they switch into chansey ( you most probably will when you attack with hex) get free recovery with pain split, and its access to toxic spikes is also useful where switching is super important. Some downsides is that its p weak to sub but if you have a pivot move like u-turn or volt you can get rid of the sub and cripple them. Also sunnyday victini also can kill this so watch out for that. But I want to encourage people to use this mon its just amazing imo. Also destiny bond is kinda a free slot to me bc cofa is too slow to use that without tr.
and something to add
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 32-38 (10 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 74-90 (23.1 - 28.1%) -- 76% chance to 4HKO
Cofagrigus!
Heres the set i use (credit to lady gaga da pan for making it )
Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Toxic Spikes
- Hex
- Pain Split
- Destiny Bond
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Toxic Spikes
- Hex
- Pain Split
- Destiny Bond
The reason why i like this so much is just how defensive it is, its incredibly useful to cripple physical mons and a great counter to stakataka. it has a low speed stat making it very fast in tr, and for a defensive mon it does p decent damage with hex after you get the status in. If they switch into chansey ( you most probably will when you attack with hex) get free recovery with pain split, and its access to toxic spikes is also useful where switching is super important. Some downsides is that its p weak to sub but if you have a pivot move like u-turn or volt you can get rid of the sub and cripple them. Also sunnyday victini also can kill this so watch out for that. But I want to encourage people to use this mon its just amazing imo. Also destiny bond is kinda a free slot to me bc cofa is too slow to use that without tr.
and something to add
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 32-38 (10 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 74-90 (23.1 - 28.1%) -- 76% chance to 4HKO
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Xurkitree is no stranger to running Scarf sets, which considering that absolutely absurd SpA Stat, might make it worth it. I'd also argue the coverage that Xurkitree has is better. It really comes down to if you're willing to run Scarf
Voting ban on hoopa-u.
Short reasoning: It's broken with sub and sub isn't the thing that's being suspected soooo.
Long reasoning: Hoopa-U's insane movepool, which includes a lot of strong coverage such as drain punch, gunk shot, the punches, but also techs such as hyperspace hole or psychic, hidden power, etc. for a mixed set, make it an insanely strong mon. Combined with the dominant sub, hoopa-u has 1 edge over any sub user: it's immune to mirror move/me first as pokemon that use that cannot do so against Hyperspace Fury's uniqueness.
Hoopa-U also simply does not care about subs, and the few mons that would break it (heracross with pin missile, sub buzzwole) die to hyperspace hole tech which you really have spots for aplenty. Choice band or LO sets (the latter with wish support) make hoopa-u able to 2hko the entire meta basically and paired with sub that becomes broken as it cannot be revenged easily.
That being said I do believe sub is the issue in this meta, in the (combined) 280 games I've played the past 10 days, all I see is sub ruining teams solo without much effort, especially sub buzz, sub kommoo, sub hera, sub heatran, sub exca... to no end. Even bad sub users are okay because they still tank that hit. Basically every mon is mimikyu on steroids. Even mimiyu is mimikyu on steroids. It's insane.
Short reasoning: It's broken with sub and sub isn't the thing that's being suspected soooo.
Long reasoning: Hoopa-U's insane movepool, which includes a lot of strong coverage such as drain punch, gunk shot, the punches, but also techs such as hyperspace hole or psychic, hidden power, etc. for a mixed set, make it an insanely strong mon. Combined with the dominant sub, hoopa-u has 1 edge over any sub user: it's immune to mirror move/me first as pokemon that use that cannot do so against Hyperspace Fury's uniqueness.
Hoopa-U also simply does not care about subs, and the few mons that would break it (heracross with pin missile, sub buzzwole) die to hyperspace hole tech which you really have spots for aplenty. Choice band or LO sets (the latter with wish support) make hoopa-u able to 2hko the entire meta basically and paired with sub that becomes broken as it cannot be revenged easily.
That being said I do believe sub is the issue in this meta, in the (combined) 280 games I've played the past 10 days, all I see is sub ruining teams solo without much effort, especially sub buzz, sub kommoo, sub hera, sub heatran, sub exca... to no end. Even bad sub users are okay because they still tank that hit. Basically every mon is mimikyu on steroids. Even mimiyu is mimikyu on steroids. It's insane.
I agree with Darthikyu 's point: "Basically every mon is mimikyu on steroids. Even mimiyu is mimikyu on steroids. It's insane. "
What should have been suspected first is sub imo, I went undefeated with sub teams (my losses happened when i wasnt using sub!). However the hoopa-U suspect is engaged, so ill forget for a moment that sub is broke and look at hoopa-u. Super strong and able to run trickroom very viably, and being the best sub user in the tier since 1) it has almost no real switchin except alolan muk ig 2) mirrormove/mefirst cant copy hyperspace fury cuz it can be used only by hoppa-u. Everyone say the same, so i wont explain more.
Idm getting rid of hoopa since im p sure @ trickroom hoopa-u will be too much for the tier even if @ sub gets banned.
Sub buzzwole and sub heatran allowed me to do this super-super-way-too easily, they just decimate entire teams.
Ban Hoopa-U and suspect sub pls.
What should have been suspected first is sub imo, I went undefeated with sub teams (my losses happened when i wasnt using sub!). However the hoopa-U suspect is engaged, so ill forget for a moment that sub is broke and look at hoopa-u. Super strong and able to run trickroom very viably, and being the best sub user in the tier since 1) it has almost no real switchin except alolan muk ig 2) mirrormove/mefirst cant copy hyperspace fury cuz it can be used only by hoppa-u. Everyone say the same, so i wont explain more.
Idm getting rid of hoopa since im p sure @ trickroom hoopa-u will be too much for the tier even if @ sub gets banned.
Sub buzzwole and sub heatran allowed me to do this super-super-way-too easily, they just decimate entire teams.
Ban Hoopa-U and suspect sub pls.
Speed is calculated at the start of the turn.... thus the reverse trick room didn't work...... just like in doubles if my prankster whimsicott sets up tailwind my other mon doesn't outspeed my opponents....... or if I switch in my pelipper and my mega swampert is already in it doesn't get the swift swim boost on that turn.
I'm voting to ban Hoopa-Unbound.
The sub set is incredibly strong and even would-be counters (like Magearna or reflect Tapu Fini) are not only immensely pressured but also ineffective if Hoopa is fire punch or thunderbolt (especially if it is nasty plot). Not only is it a broken user of substitute and trick room, provided it isn't playing against trick room room itself, but, with hyperspace fury or hyperspace hole, it makes it so other sub pokemon are useless in taking it down. Alolan Muk might be the best counter but focus punch+sub sets destroy it and drain punch whittles it out.
The sub set is incredibly strong and even would-be counters (like Magearna or reflect Tapu Fini) are not only immensely pressured but also ineffective if Hoopa is fire punch or thunderbolt (especially if it is nasty plot). Not only is it a broken user of substitute and trick room, provided it isn't playing against trick room room itself, but, with hyperspace fury or hyperspace hole, it makes it so other sub pokemon are useless in taking it down. Alolan Muk might be the best counter but focus punch+sub sets destroy it and drain punch whittles it out.
Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Rain Dance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Focus Punch
- Toxic
Some sets that ive been enjoying a lot. Primarina's sparkling aria goes through subs and targets buzzwole's low spdef and heatran's water weakness. You can also run reflect over rain dance. Rain dance turns it into a fearsome wallbreaker and cancels victini's/heatran's sun. A pokemon that you should definitely try out, it has a solid niche in this meta as an anti-sub pokemon able to wallbreak at the same time:
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole in Rain: 538-634 (128.7 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rhyperior is an amazing @ sub user cuz 1) it can make subs that chansey is unable to break 2) it has focuspunch (broke with sub lmao) 3) it doesn't have real counterplay: you can toxic chesnaught, focuspunch skarmory, and hit almost everything not named magnet rise doublade. I like using it as my sub because it blocks voltswitches and deals with @ sunny day banded victini (one of the scariest wallbreakers) quite well (at least it doesnt die after one hit):
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior in Sun: 219-258 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(don't forget u only lose 25% upon switch-in cuz u have sub)
Speed EVs to outspeed chansey.
Trick is not assistable as all moves involving the switching/moving of items (other than knock off i guess), cannot be called by assist.
PSA: Metronome is being banned as it causes the battle to crash when calling certain moves.