Metagame Trademarked

Hey guys, I wanted to drum up some Metagame Discussion™ by sharing some teams I've been using!

I wrote a little RMT up about the volt-turn eject button spam team I used to get reqs:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...am-which-won-a-roomtour.3650110/#post-8125083
I've also been playing around with weather teams. Here's a sunnyroom team:
https://pokepast.es/777b2e6ff6ce8991
And here's a rain squad:
https://pokepast.es/0c4852dfe222ba7e
I've also been trying to adapt traditional HO to a substitute- and willo-heavy meta. Here's a Lucario Spikes squad:
https://pokepast.es/cb735b3e076f88ca
These teams have worked ok on ladder but they could definitely use some tuning up. I'm excited to see what people continue to create in this meta! Thanks Ktütverde for giving me the push to post these
 
Last edited:
A bit of a meme set but this metagame opens up the door to a lot of different playstyles, one of which is trick room. We know this.
However, a pokemon that really abuses trick room for everything it can is Shuckle.
Shuckle @ Choice Band
Ability: Power Trick
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Gyro Ball

Obviously shuckle is shuckle, it trades its def with its atk under power trick but doesn't lose a turn doing so now, not to mention nothing switches in safely on a mon with 912 attack (or thereabout)
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Seems like there are no Sample Teams yet, and no Viability Rankings either. Let's see if I can help fixing that:

1) Sample Teams


Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/d02d4468635ca7ef
=== [gen7trademarked] 8) SunnyRain Abusers ===

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Fusion Bolt
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: mirrormove
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Defog
- U-turn

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: raindance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Hydro Pump

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: thunderwave
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Curse
- Gyro Ball


=== [gen7trademarked] 7) Weavile+Volcarona ===

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Icicle Crash

Volcarona @ Choice Specs
Ability: quiverdance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz
- Overheat

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: magnetrise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 Def / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Tapu Fini @ Icium Z
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Haze

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- U-turn
- Swords Dance


=== [gen7trademarked] 6) Aquaring Vincune ===

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: magnetrise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

Nidoqueen @ Eject Button
Ability: toxicspikes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Taunt
- Toxic

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: aquaring
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Toxic
- Rest

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Defog


=== [gen7trademarked] 5) Infiltrator Specs Candelabrum ===

Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Overheat

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Rest

Keldeo @ Waterium Z
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Taunt


=== [gen7trademarked] 4) Ktut TrickRoom ===

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: raindance
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald

Cofagrigus @ Darkinium Z
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Hex
- Toxic Spikes

Cresselia @ Eject Button
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Lunar Dance
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast
- Recycle

Camerupt @ Choice Specs
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Explosion

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Fang

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Thunder Punch
- Mach Punch


=== [gen7trademarked] 3) Sub Rhyperior Balance ===

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Hex

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Recover
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Drain Punch
- Roar
- Synthesis

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Soft-Boiled

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Focus Punch
- Toxic


=== [gen7trademarked] 2) Sun Balance ===

Slowbro @ Eject Button
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off

Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: mirrormove
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Defog
- U-turn

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Toxic

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Toxic

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off

Hydreigon @ Darkinium Z
Ability: thunderwave
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Roost


=== [gen7trademarked] 1) Ktut Stall ===

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: toxicspikes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
- Baneful Bunker

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Taunt
- Roost

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swords Dance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Dual Chop

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Ice Punch


Here are all my teams, that I've been testing on the ladder mainly for a couple of days.
1) Chansey+Buzzwole stall. Scarf SD chomp is a very reliable heatran check and manaphy/xurkitree revengekiller. Mew used to be scarf Imposter but that set kinda sucks since the top sweepers are scarf+@ tailglow or SD+ @ tailwind. I put a @ wow mew because holy shit, @ wow is really good. Skarmory with @ defog is probably the best defogger available in the metagame, using @ spikes is cool but a stall team works better with no spikes on both sides than with spikes on both sides (if you don't have an instant defogger, chansey will struggle to pivot in on voltswitches or chatot's boomburst for example).

2) Sun balance utilizing slowbro as a sun setter and venu+tran as good sun abusers. Venu is one of the best megas imo since all teams need counterplay to @ leechseed and @ toxicspikes as well as @ sub breloom / buzzwole / conkeldurr. Venu also checks manaphy and xurkitree with a SpD investment. @ Sub tran is dumb, Koko is a very reliable defogger and revengekiller thanks to @ mirror move (rvengekills heatran after they used earthpower or kommoO after they used clanging scales). @ twave hydreigon speed control and anti-sweeper, also it is the main heatran check.

3) Balance team utilizing the infamous @ wish + @ sub combo, rhyperior here to check victini and stop voltswitches. Gengar with @ wow is definitely not a bad pokemon and burns physical attackers before they can switch out, also it is the mandatory toxicspikes remover. Alakazam acts as the speed control and can become dumb if it Traces something like sub or tailglow. Skarm+chesnaught cover physical attackers, notably buzzwole and breloom.

4) Trickroom. It took me a moment to figure out the optimal combo between cofa and cress. Both set up trickroom in their own way and can heal a pokemon bacl to full each. Camerupt was supposed to be mega but that implied losing the sunnyday, so i just made it specs and that worked better. Primarina is fairly slow and not only does it hit very hard, but it also ignores subs thanks to its Aria that OHKO many @ sub users, once it KOed a kyuremblack which was at 53% behind a sub: prim is no joke. COnkeldurr is @ sub because sub is the best trademark and guarantess safe revengekilling and/or wallbreaking. Mawile gets to +6 in one turn thanks to SD+hugepower, really scary. Also it is the best mon vs stall, since prim/camel/conkeldurr are walled easily by chansey+skarm/venusaur/etc.

5) Chandelure is a surprisingly good pokemon in a metagame where @ sub prevails. Infiltrator is a big "no" to this thing. It works just like primarina. Magearna full spD with @ heartswap is probably the best manaphy/xurk check, really fabtastic glue and pivot+cleric. Venusaur again cuz venu is good, anti-leech/tspikes/buzzwole/breloom as usual. Tank chomp is a cool glue able to take on victini, heatran and scizor among others. Keldeo is @ CM instead of @ sub cuz its not that great at subbing and kills itself too early. Chandelure isnt reliable vs chansey teams so CM keldeo was my final choice to wallbreak while retaining speed control. @ sd +scarf lando is a ridiculously pokemon, so it happens to be here too as speed control and ground immunity.

6) Chansey+buzzwole again, sorry lol, but this core is insane and you can put 4 random mons with them and still win. I added some important roles such as : electric immunity, tspikes absorber (nidoqueen); heatran check, victini check, water resist (vincune) (shiny and relaxed nature are mandatory, I added speed to outspeed -1 spe band victini; scarf sd lando, no need to explain it.

7) This team is less reliable and struggles vs stuff like kartana, but weavile+volcarona wont let you down, together they break through toxapex, chansey, everything actually. But I didnt manage to build real offense teams cuz there are too many @ subs @ haze @ twave @ trickroom in this meta, so I stick to bulky builds with our Lord and Savior Chansey. @ magnet rise doublade is an amazing buzzwole+garchomp+lando check.

8) A team built around band @ sunnyday victini, dumb mon. Primarina has good type synergy with it, checks opposing sun abusers (heatran, tini) and is a "@ sub revengekiller" thx to its aria. Koko good defogger in offense and speed control. Ferro with @ twave, I believe twave is one of the best trademarks thats completely dumb vs offense teams without a cleric. Also ferro is the xurk/manaphy check. Lando again cuz its awesome, and kommo as a secondary fire resist, secondary water resists AND secondary Sub killer thanks to its sound moves clanging scales/clangorous soulblaze. Thats the best I could so as "offense" , i think Trademarked teams need defensive backup due to all these anti-offense techs that go rampant in the tier.


2) Now, my Viability Rankings nominations (in alphabetical order inside ranks):

S rank

Chansey is ultra splashable (stall, semistall, balance, bulkyoffense) thanks to the incredible role compression of @ wish + aromatherapy + stealth rock. Paired with sub buzzwole for example, they can decimate entire teams on their own. It makes teams suddenly less weak to the likes of chatot, tapukoko, xurkitree, -insert special attacker-.
Probably the best @ sub user. Its high HP allows it to make subs that tank one seismic toss from chansey, while its large physical bulk makes it a very splashable landorus, garchomp, breloom and weavile check.
Landorus: there is no reason not to use it, especially the @ swordsdance + scarf set which can come in and out forever since it is immune to spikes and maintain momentum with a uturn/vswitch resistance/immunity, and +2 uturns able to dent would-be switchins severely. @ rockpolish + flyniumZ+uturn is also an extremely effective revengekiller; the same can be said about @ rockpolish + choiceband.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- U-turn / Knock Off
- Swords Dance / Knock Off / Defog

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Polish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog


A+ rank







Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Toxic

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Dual Chop

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Protect

Manaphy @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tail Glow
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Substitute
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Toxic

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Sunny Day
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt


A rank






A- rank




I don't wanna write too much, I explained my S noms which are the most important. Feel free to comment on my proposals, and to submit your own noms :]

edit: there are some mistakes in the teams, most of them are really dumb things like the "vincune" team not being a vincune team anymore (can still be used over the pseudo-crocune). Some evs or natures might not be good (like naive instead of jolly or some EVs to speed creep stuff not having been added, feel free to do it yourself if you wanna use the teams).
 
Last edited:
Seems like there are no Sample Teams yet, and no Viability Rankings either. Let's see if I can help fixing that:

1) Sample Teams


Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/d02d4468635ca7ef
=== [gen7trademarked] 8) SunnyRain Abusers ===

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Fusion Bolt
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: mirrormove
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Defog
- U-turn

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: raindance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Hydro Pump

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: thunderwave
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Curse
- Gyro Ball


=== [gen7trademarked] 7) Weavile+Volcarona ===

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Icicle Crash

Volcarona @ Choice Specs
Ability: quiverdance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz
- Overheat

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: magnetrise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 Def / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Tapu Fini @ Icium Z
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Haze

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- U-turn
- Swords Dance


=== [gen7trademarked] 6) Aquaring Vincune ===

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: magnetrise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

Nidoqueen @ Eject Button
Ability: toxicspikes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Taunt
- Toxic

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: aquaring
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Toxic
- Rest

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Defog


=== [gen7trademarked] 5) Infiltrator Specs Candelabrum ===

Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Overheat

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Rest

Keldeo @ Waterium Z
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Taunt


=== [gen7trademarked] 4) Ktut TrickRoom ===

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: raindance
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald

Cofagrigus @ Darkinium Z
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Hex
- Toxic Spikes

Cresselia @ Eject Button
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Lunar Dance
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast
- Recycle

Camerupt @ Choice Specs
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Explosion

Mawile-Mega @ Mawilite
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Fang

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Thunder Punch
- Mach Punch


=== [gen7trademarked] 3) Sub Rhyperior Balance ===

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Substitute
- Pain Split
- Hex

Alakazam-Mega @ Alakazite
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Recover
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Drain Punch
- Roar
- Synthesis

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Soft-Boiled

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Focus Punch
- Toxic


=== [gen7trademarked] 2) Sun Balance ===

Slowbro @ Eject Button
Ability: sunnyday
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off

Tapu Koko @ Leftovers
Ability: mirrormove
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Defog
- U-turn

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: leechseed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
- Toxic

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Toxic

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off

Hydreigon @ Darkinium Z
Ability: thunderwave
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Roost


=== [gen7trademarked] 1) Ktut Stall ===

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: toxicspikes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Haze
- Baneful Bunker

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: willowisp
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Taunt
- Roost

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Swords Dance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Dual Chop

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Ice Punch


Here are all my teams, that I've been testing on the ladder mainly for a couple of days.
1) Chansey+Buzzwole stall. Scarf SD chomp is a very reliable heatran check and manaphy/xurkitree revengekiller. Mew used to be scarf Imposter but that set kinda sucks since the top sweepers are scarf+@ tailglow or SD+ @ tailwind. I put a @ wow mew because holy shit, @ wow is really good. Skarmory with @ defog is probably the best defogger available in the metagame, using @ spikes is cool but a stall team works better with no spikes on both sides than with spikes on both sides (if you don't have an instant defogger, chansey will struggle to pivot in on voltswitches or chatot's boomburst for example).

2) Sun balance utilizing slowbro as a sun setter and venu+tran as good sun abusers. Venu is one of the best megas imo since all teams need counterplay to @ leechseed and @ toxicspikes as well as @ sub breloom / buzzwole / conkeldurr. Venu also checks manaphy and xurkitree with a SpD investment. @ Sub tran is dumb, Koko is a very reliable defogger and revengekiller thanks to @ mirror move (rvengekills heatran after they used earthpower or kommoO after they used clanging scales). @ twave hydreigon speed control and anti-sweeper, also it is the main heatran check.

3) Balance team utilizing the infamous @ wish + @ sub combo, rhyperior here to check victini and stop voltswitches. Gengar with @ wow is definitely not a bad pokemon and burns physical attackers before they can switch out, also it is the mandatory toxicspikes remover. Alakazam acts as the speed control and can become dumb if it Traces something like sub or tailglow. Skarm+chesnaught cover physical attackers, notably buzzwole and breloom.

4) Trickroom. It took me a moment to figure out the optimal combo between cofa and cress. Both set up trickroom in their own way and can heal a pokemon bacl to full each. Camerupt was supposed to be mega but that implied losing the sunnyday, so i just made it specs and that worked better. Primarina is fairly slow and not only does it hit very hard, but it also ignores subs thanks to its Aria that OHKO many @ sub users, once it KOed a kyuremblack which was at 53% behind a sub: prim is no joke. COnkeldurr is @ sub because sub is the best trademark and guarantess safe revengekilling and/or wallbreaking. Mawile gets to +6 in one turn thanks to SD+hugepower, really scary. Also it is the best mon vs stall, since prim/camel/conkeldurr are walled easily by chansey+skarm/venusaur/etc.

5) Chandelure is a surprisingly good pokemon in a metagame where @ sub prevails. Infiltrator is a big "no" to this thing. It works just like primarina. Magearna full spD with @ heartswap is probably the best manaphy/xurk check, really fabtastic glue and pivot+cleric. Venusaur again cuz venu is good, anti-leech/tspikes/buzzwole/breloom as usual. Tank chomp is a cool glue able to take on victini, heatran and scizor among others. Keldeo is @ CM instead of @ sub cuz its not that great at subbing and kills itself too early. Chandelure isnt reliable vs chansey teams so CM keldeo was my final choice to wallbreak while retaining speed control. @ sd +scarf lando is a ridiculously pokemon, so it happens to be here too as speed control and ground immunity.

6) Chansey+buzzwole again, sorry lol, but this core is insane and you can put 4 random mons with them and still win. I added some important roles such as : electric immunity, tspikes absorber (nidoqueen); heatran check, victini check, water resist (vincune) (shiny and relaxed nature are mandatory, I added speed to outspeed -1 spe band victini; scarf sd lando, no need to explain it.

7) This team is less reliable and struggles vs stuff like kartana, but weavile+volcarona wont let you down, together they break through toxapex, chansey, everything actually. But I didnt manage to build real offense teams cuz there are too many @ subs @ haze @ twave @ trickroom in this meta, so I stick to bulky builds with our Lord and Savior Chansey. @ magnet rise doublade is an amazing buzzwole+garchomp+lando check.

8) A team built around band @ sunnyday victini, dumb mon. Primarina has good type synergy with it, checks opposing sun abusers (heatran, tini) and is a "@ sub revengekiller" thx to its aria. Koko good defogger in offense and speed control. Ferro with @ twave, I believe twave is one of the best trademarks thats completely dumb vs offense teams without a cleric. Also ferro is the xurk/manaphy check. Lando again cuz its awesome, and kommo as a secondary fire resist, secondary water resists AND secondary Sub killer thanks to its sound moves clanging scales/clangorous soulblaze. Thats the best I could so as "offense" , i think Trademarked teams need defensive backup due to all these anti-offense techs that go rampant in the tier.


2) Now, my Viability Rankings nominations (in alphabetical order inside ranks):

S rank

Chansey is ultra splashable (stall, semistall, balance, bulkyoffense) thanks to the incredible role compression of @ wish + aromatherapy + stealth rock. Paired with sub buzzwole for example, they can decimate entire teams on their own. It makes teams suddenly less weak to the likes of chatot, tapukoko, xurkitree, -insert special attacker-.
Probably the best @ sub user. Its high HP allows it to make subs that tank one seismic toss from chansey, while its large physical bulk makes it a very splashable landorus, garchomp, breloom and weavile check.
Landorus: there is no reason not to use it, especially the @ swordsdance + scarf set which can come in and out forever since it is immune to spikes and maintain momentum with a uturn/vswitch resistance/immunity, and +2 uturns able to dent would-be switchins severely. @ rockpolish + flyniumZ+uturn is also an extremely effective revengekiller; the same can be said about @ rockpolish + choiceband.
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Stealth Rock

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Taunt

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog

Landorus-Therian @ Flyinium Z
Ability: rockpolish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Fly
- U-turn / Knock Off
- Swords Dance / Knock Off / Defog

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Polish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Defog


A+ rank







Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: stealthrock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Fire Blast
- Toxic

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Dual Chop

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: heartswap
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Protect

Manaphy @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tail Glow
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Psychic
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Substitute
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Toxic

Victini @ Choice Band
Ability: Sunny Day
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt


A rank






A- rank




I don't wanna write too much, I explained my S noms which are the most important. Feel free to comment on my proposals, and to submit your own noms :]
Thanks for the noms and the teams (i have admittedly not been adding samples as I should have to the page). Concerning the rankings I wanted to wait till we are good ways more in the meta before i posted them. Thankfully with some assistance from funbot , was able to start a doc for the rankings. So noms for certain places are greatly appreciated especially since I cant ladder as frequently as I would like to.
 
A bit of a meme set but this metagame opens up the door to a lot of different playstyles, one of which is trick room. We know this.
However, a pokemon that really abuses trick room for everything it can is Shuckle.
Shuckle @ Choice Band
Ability: Power Trick
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Gyro Ball

Obviously shuckle is shuckle, it trades its def with its atk under power trick but doesn't lose a turn doing so now, not to mention nothing switches in safely on a mon with 912 attack (or thereabout)
Power Trick Shuckle really needs fast slow pivoting support because it's incredibly frail on the physical side. This means either a high-speed mon with a pivoting move or a mon with a self-KOing move.
 
174735

I'm voting ABSTAIN, because even though I think Hoopa-U is potentially broken even in a Sub-less meta, the fact that it abuses Sub so well, in multiple ways, makes it hard to clearly understand if Hoopa or Sub is the problem, as far as Hoopa usage pre-suspect is concerned. Regardless, I do share the sentiment that Sub, while being nice for stopping some unavoidable Trademarks, like Will-O-Wisp and TWave/Glare and creating more consistent teams, as revenge killing gets easier, ends up making the meta revolve around it and teams too. Often, one of the most import questions match up-wise is "what is his sub user"? Still, I understand the complexity of pros vs. cons when it comes to Sub.

Anyway, happy to see a lot of people exploring the meta, creating movesets and teams. It's nice to see people enjoying it!
 
Here's some fun tech to play around with for the TR users out there:
Trevenant @ Ghostium Z
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Phantom Force
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch / Power-Up Punch
Trevenant, by virtue of getting tm Trick Room and being able to hit itself super effectively with Phantom Force is a decent bait for opposing Mew on offense. Mew, upon switching in will reverse TR, giving itself a bad matchup against slower Phantom Force. Good players will switch out, giving you a free hit with Trev's not unworkable offenses and coverage. Depending on your team, the Mew might even come in again under TR, allowing you to take it out with NEN. Aside from that, 110 attack with NEN, EQ and Wood Hammer are by no means a bad combination, and can even do some mini-sweeps. It's not necessarily good, but at least fun to play around with.
 

GL Volkner

[12:15:34] @Thinkerino: You're an animal
is a Tiering Contributor

s/os to Clefable for the team

Not gonna lie, I find Substitute majorly overpowered. Being able to stay in on things you shouldn't be able to stay in on is just... Wrong. Having to break a sub in order to beat something is wrong. The fact that you're able to do all of this while having 4 additional moves and an item is really really restricting. Every single game I played and won, Substitute Heatran was my wincon and that's because Substitute is just so good that you literally have no reason to not put it on your team.

I know that from what I wrote, it'll look like I'm gonna vote dnb on Hoopa-U because Substitute is broken. And honestly, if this was months ago or if this wasn't an OMotM, I would do that. But Trademarked won't be legal for OMotM by the time Gen 8 comes out, so unless there's enough time to let the meta settle and then conduct another suspect (which I doubt), it wouldn't be really practical of me to vote dnb.

Hoopa-U isn't broken, but it's being suspected over Substitute which I believe is flawed. Substitute has many exceptional users. But since we can't really do anything about it, I'm gonna vote ban on Hoopa-U.
 
voting ban on Hoopa-U

pretty much everything there is to say has been said, but basically, my thoughts are that while substitute seems to me to be the main problem hoopa-u is still pretty ridiculous and is too strong for the meta so needs to go. The fact that it loses literally nothing without it's ability, has sets outside of sub and 2hkos everything just pushes it over the edge

hope the names ok xd


s/o Clefable for the team
 
Last edited:
Cheers to Mengy for the gritty tspikes looper team, made reqs a lot easier.

Gonna be voting BAN for Hoopa-U. Busted with sub, busted without it. At least 3 sets that can run through every fat team you can think of.

As many have pointed out though, Substitute should've been the original suspect target. Right now the OM is just ''Sub as a Trademark, or how to beat all the mons that can utilize it''. This much is known though, hopefully WPA will make decisions on that after this sus.
174936
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-908404229
Turn 3. Shouldn’t Yawn be banned as a trademark since it induces sleep, even if it takes a turn to take effect?

not only does yawn not really induce sleep (u can just switch-out and they will have to re-send their pokémon in to activate @ yawn again), but nothing really abuses it (looking for something with a set-up move and able to run it alongside protect or sub so as to shield itself from attacks during the yawn activation turn). Just unreliable and not worth it, even if you somehow find a decent yawn user like @ yawn kingdra with sub and DD, it will get paralyzed or burned or forced to break the sub of a @ twave/wow/sub user.

Having to wait for 1 turn matters a LOT since what makes trademarks awesome is their activation upon switching-in: compare @ sleep powder ability to instantly put sth to sleep with @ yawn forcing something out and rarely putting anything to sleep. Shouldn't be banned imo unless several yawn users are discovered and happen to be too strong or uncompetitive.
 

not only does yawn not really induce sleep (u can just switch-out and they will have to re-send their pokémon in to activate @ yawn again), but nothing really abuses it (looking for something with a set-up move and able to run it alongside protect or sub so as to shield itself from attacks during the yawn activation turn). Just unreliable and not worth it, even if you somehow find a decent yawn user like @ yawn kingdra with sub and DD, it will get paralyzed or burned or forced to break the sub of a @ twave/wow/sub user.

Having to wait for 1 turn matters a LOT since what makes trademarks awesome is their activation upon switching-in: compare @ sleep powder ability to instantly put sth to sleep with @ yawn forcing something out and rarely putting anything to sleep. Shouldn't be banned imo unless several yawn users are discovered and happen to be too strong or uncompetitive.
But whether you’re put to sleep or forced out, it guarantees the yawn using player a free turn because you either are forced to switch instead of attack or you fall asleep, at which point you have to switch or hope to wake up in one turn. Any way you spin it, auto yawn guarantees you free turns just like moves like Spore would as a trademark and is thus inherently uncompetitive, regardless of the user.
 
Here are a few sets that I've been toying with:


Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Swords Dance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Bone Rush

I think people (including myself) have become a bit lost in the sauce with all the crazy ability shenanigans and have forgotten about good old Hyper Offense. Put Lucario on a team with a Trapper, a Spiker, and a fighting check and you have yourself a very scary team. +2 Extreme Speed kills Landorus at 75% and gets a lot of other impressive benchmarks. Bone Rush lets Lucario break through Sub Tran, Marowak, and maybe Pex or Magearna on a good day.


Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tail Glow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball
- Round

Not my idea to use Specs Xurk and I've seen it around, but man this thing is scary. Why use Specs when it's redundant with Tail Glow? It's because with this much power behind its attacks – 3.75x power – it can get critical KOs without resorting to its coverage attacks.

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 221-261 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 433-510 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 162-192 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after spikes

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Round vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 365-430 (114.4 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Round vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 504-594 (120.5 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Round vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% guaranteed 2HKO after Sub



Cresselia (F) @ Eject Button/Red Card
Ability: Recycle
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Moonlight
- Lunar Dance

I love Eject Button and use it all the time – here's a reusable Eject Button! This isn't my idea, I saw it on a hazard stacking team with Red Card over Eject Button. I chose Cress for this just because it's bulky as hell but there might be a better pivot too (one not weak to U-turn, maybe?)
 
Last edited:

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
The Hammer and the Anvil Strategy - Trademarked Semi-stall - Peaked 3#

After a lot of trial and error I finally made a team im proud of, mostly because it actually won me some games. Since we're making sample teams I wanted to share it, hopefully it's a good example of Trademarked stall. It's surprisingly difficult.

Intro

Phase 1)

My first team was built around hazard stacking with a rapid spin user, as hazards are a lot easier to get up in this metagame than any other. The first one was built around Assault Vest Synthesis Dhelmise but that just got pursuit trapped, so I tried out Tsareena but it was too frail, besides spinning away the hazard occationally it did not to much. I found the problem to be that my opponent could set the hazards faster than I could clear them, my team also lacked the necessary offensive pressure to break through the Chansey wish pass cores so omnipresent. However, the biggest challenge and the archtype I kept losing to was the hazard stacking volt-turn teams. Simply put, they applied too much pressure and eventually Murphys Law would take the team down, crits suck. When the volt-turns began using Pursuit trappers like SD Weavile/Bisharp or Substitute Tyranitar I scrapped the team entirely.

Phase 2)

I then tried a different strategy. I would use powerful Pursuit trappers and focus less on setting my own hazards and more on removing my opponents. I switched Skarmory's TM from spikes to defog and removed my Dhelmise/Tsareena in favor of various Pursuit trappers. Weavile and Bisharp were too hard to bring in safely, and were volunerable to Will-o-Wispers like Cofagrious, so I landed on Choice Banded Substitute Tyranitar and it worked wonders. Bulky enough to live u-turns and volt switches with screens up and powerful enough that it could not only trap unboosted but also break defensive cores with it's sheer power. That still left me with a weakness to Volt-turn cores. I had tried out reflect Hydreigon (Marowak-A and Victini counter/check respectively) but I decided on adding both a reflect and light screen pokemon. It should be mentioned that defog doesn't remove your screens any longer, only your opponents. After some testing I landed on Clefable for reflect, resist u-turn and being a switch in to SubPunchers, and Light Screen Zapdos for u-turn. The rest of the team was built around covering my bases and building strong backbone. I wont bore you any longer, so I'll go into the team now.
Tyranitar  sprite from Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
Toxapex  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon
Skarmory  sprite from Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
Clefable  sprite from Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
Chansey  sprite from Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
Zapdos  sprite from Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire


The Anvil (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Heal Bell

175251

Chansey is the backbone and MVP on the team. It's main purpose is to pass a large wishes to Tyranitar, as you can come in with substitute and heal all the way up to 100%. It can also heal up the rest of your team if something is widdled down too low, one wish should usually be enough to heal you all the way up to 100%. Softboiled is so you can stay in against Xurkitree, Volcarona etc and outlive them with healing and seismic toss. Protect is so you can come in and receive your own wish, you can also scout what your opponent will do which is very handy when facing pursuit trappers. Heal bell doesn't need to be explained :)

The Second Anvil (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock

175252

Skarmory and Chansey form a very powerful defensive core together, walling most of the metagame alone. It's main purpose is to controll the hazard domaine. Skarmory has little to fear from the common hazard setters, like opposing Skarmories, Landorus-Therian and Chansey. Whirlwind is to phase out bulky setup sweepers and disrupt opposing Chanseys attempts to heal their teammates. With a reflect and light screen up Skarmory can 1v1 pokemon like Buzzwole, non-spore Breloom, Kartana, Alakazam etc. You're not going to be using stealth rocks a lot, but if you manage to trap and kill your opponents hazard setters/removers you have more room to play.

The Third Anvil (Toxapex) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: haze
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Toxic/Knock off
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes
- Scald

175254

Toxapex acts like Quagsire does in ou. I was hesitant to use it at first, as you can only haze as you come in but your opponent will face the same problem. Set-up pokemon like Infernape, Volcarona, Weavile, Bisharp etc. use a set up mon as their TM and so they can't set up any further, this means that your haze is enough to stop them. Toxic is meant to pressure pokemon like Volcarona, Zapdos, Landorus-T and Chansey. Occationally you will have to win by pp stalling Chansey out of heal bell, toxic forces them to use heal bell more often. Knock off is also a good option, it's just a very strong move that you can spam. Toxic Spikes to pressure defensive cores. Scald because... Well, it's scald haha.

The Forth Anvil (Clefable) @ Light Clay
Ability: reflect
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower

175255

Clefable is the first screener and one of the most important pokemon on the team. Having screens up is amazing. It relives the volt-turn pressure and can also stop opposing wallbreakers like Buzzwole, Tyranitar, Weavile/Bisharp, Landorus-Therian etc. The set is fairly standard. Clefable can sweep late game if you manage to trap and kill some of it's counters.

The Fifth Anvil (Zapdos) @ Light Clay
Ability: lightscreen
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Discharge
- U-turn
- Heat Wave
- Roost

175253

The second screener on my team. Zapdos gets a lot of chances to set up screens throughout the game. Light Screen lets you handle powerful special attackers like Xurkitree, Infernape, Tapu Koko, Magearna and Exeggutor-A. Heat wave pressures Weavile, Ferrothron, Scizor etc. U-turn gives you more chances to bring in Tyranitar.

The Hammer (Tyranitar) @ Choice Band
Ability: substitute
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Crunch

175256

Tyranitar is what the team was built around and is probably just as important as Chansey. Substitute is just broken tbh. It's like every mon has disguise now. You can pretty much bring this in constantly, don't be afraid to use it aggressively. A good prediction can win you the game, as long as you keep it above 26% you can always bring it in after Chansey and heal it up to full. It's HP is uneven as you can use substitue 4 times, surviving with 1%. Pursuit is the main move, lets you trap Chansey without Eviolite, Zapdos, Alakazam etc. With Choice Band you hit very, very hard. It's also a very powerful psychological force, as simply having Tyranitar in the back affects your opponent and disrupts their strategies. Fire punch is for Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Tsareena and Magearna. Stone Edge and Crunch are just powerful moves you can spam. Stone Edge has a high crit chance and Crunch has a chance to lower your opponents defences, so pokemon like Toxapex and Skarmory can't stay in forever, you will eventually either crit them or lower their defences.

Pastebin: https://pastebin.com/nqpX64ML

Threatlist

No team can cover everything, and this team is no different. The most powerful threat is, without a doubt, Specs Xurkitree. It OHKOs everything except Chansey which takes around 70% without light screen. Keep Light screens up and try and pursuit trap it. Still, Xurkitree is the most dangeours pokemon you can face. Nothing else I faced really 6-0d this team from team preview as pursuit gives you a chance to trap and kill the worst threats. It handles volt-turn better than most stall teams I used, but it's still dangerous. Watch out for opposing Pursuit trappers as Zapdos and Chansey are volunerable to be trapped. Keep reflect up and you should be good though.

Thank you for reading :) Let me know if there's anything I should change.
 
Ok I have been pestered for this a while and I think its best I bring my thoughts on it as of current. Nonetheless I will just say point blank I dont have immediate plans on dealing with it as of current but I hope to have my thoughts collected on it once the hoopa u suspect is over.

Substitute as a Trademark

You would have to be completely blind to not see just how much this move has shaped the meta around it and how necessary it is to run sets to deal with it regardless of what team your building. It makes it easier for mons to revenge kill, come in on attacks and proceed to 1v1, makes the one of the most unreliable moves in standard (focus punch) a viable option, and prevents offensive sets from being stopped by status that doesnt pass through sub. In some cases a team badly prepared for it can even lose to it outright depending on the mon behind the sub and if the person team isnt properly prepared to deal with it. However, as I look at the meta as a whole with sub, I just often wonder, just what would like the meta be like without it? Would it be easier for all team types to survive as they do now? Would status begin to rule?. Here i just wanna give my veiws on sub as a whole. I explained it partially but lemme go further in depth with this as I explain:

What does substitute do for teams ?

Substitute as a move acts as a psuedo Disguise but at the cost of 25% of ur max hp and some but not all the trappings. It provides safety from attacks and status that dont go through subs, allowing physical attackers(the larger portion of sub users) to not have to worry about being burned, prz or get their attack reduced, making it easier for playstyles like hyper offense or balance to thrive. If the sub wasnt broken when the mon was sent out the mon can afford to throw out any attack it wants without fear of being hit back seriously for it. Despite the chipping to its own health with sub , they can either have their own recovery options or have wish support to help keep them healthy despite taking dmg from their own subs or from hazards. Overall it makes revenge killing easier, and allows mons to even sit in front of what would usually check them in standard tiers without fear.

Counterplays To Sub


I admit there isnt alot , but it often revolves around wearing it down with hazards (which isnt always possible especially with the best sub users either resisting or taking neutral to rocks and have wish support), having another sub user to basically trade then take down the now "naked" sub user, running "authentic" moves like hyperspace hole or sound moves like sparkling aria or running infiltrator mons (this being among the weakest way to handle it). The most consistent way to dealing with the sub is dealing with the wish support and then wearing it down as sound moves dont always work depending on the mon (most notably heatran since it resists all but sparkling aria and hyperspace hole). Wish chansey also however makes this tough with the only available authentic moves being both specially inclined and chansey being as specially bulky as it is and both tanking and being able to setup another wish to keep the sub healthy then (or better yet wait for another opportunity to do so). There are other more gimmicky counterplays I believe , however I admittedly have not met them.

My overall opinion on Sub

For those who do not know , I am an avid BH player (not among the better ones though). A meta where imposter helps hold the meta together and by reducing the surprise aspect of bh and making it harder for things to just outright run coverage for checks for their offensive mons. With Substitute (note I did not see it becoming as strong as it is now), I initially began to wonder and hope if it could become similar to imposter chansey. Being a necessary evil. As I see it and SamHPL expressed when I asked him regarding it, a meta without substitute means that offense takes a hit. Wow, twave, toxic, glare, etc, they all become much more potent on teams and make it a demand for offensive teams and none stall teams to now run clerics if they want to sufficiently deal with them as the mons that carry them basically have the free chance to throw these around by just swapping in. It woudlnt be hard to inflict the entire team with status barring immunities. Fire type physical attackers become the only reliable or consistent physical attackers or guts mons choosing to keep their base abilities and normals running facade (which doesnt fix their coverage moves and wisp in itself is already a move commonly learned by ghosts). Most attackers either way still have to be wary of para from twave , and glare (able to para more than twave). I am not saying that the subless meta will be worse than the sub meta, but I am saying this is what I feel the meta has a possibility to lead into if sub were to go. I still to this day do not regret suspecting hoopa unbound as I feel it allowed substitute to show what it really is capable of. Hoopa already has next to no reliable switchins, only stuff that can ko it after it decimates something on your team or pursuit trap it on a revenge kill. It also made sub harder to pull off with hyperspace fury just running through both sub and protect and also decimating chansey (aka the best wish passer in the tier) ohkoing with band laser focus. But in any case this is about sub and not hoopa unbound.

In the end I say this for now, I plan to see what action I can take the meta better in future, and just wanted to state this so that people know that I am fully aware of whats going on and that your complaints arent falling on deaf ears. I want to figure out what I want to do with it moving forward, but in any case a quickban I do not feel is optimal so I will try to have my thoughts sorted out on it by the time the hoopa suspect finishes. Please be patient with me as this is my first time running a tier and I cant be on here or as active on trademark ladder as I would like to be

In Other News: Just would like to say that trademarked Viablity rankings are in the works, a doc has been made and is being edited and 2 other groups have approached me with their own personal VR's for the tier. I would appreciate good nominations with replays showing off the potency as once again I admit to my lack of ability to be on ladder as constant as I would like. I hope to have it up here in the forums by 23rd of May
(dont quote me on this lol) by God's grace.
 
Wish also needs to be looked into. In addition to pairing well with Sub, it's also a good trademark on its own and makes matches drag on way longer than they should.
 
Why Substitute should be banned:

Apologies for the long post – read just the bolded lines and summary at the end for the main argument.

First let me give a big thanks for all the work Whitephoenixace and other contributors have put into Trademarked. It's a meta with a unique feel to it that I really appreciate that the TLs are trying to preserve as best they can. But Substitute really needs to go, and action needs to be taken sooner rather than later if the meta is going to have time to evolve to post-Sub play before the month is over.

Here are the main reasons why I think it should be banned:

1. It's more overpowered than people are giving it credit for because it is low risk/high reward

What makes Substitute a strong move? I see a lot of people arguing that Substitute is powerful because of its many strong abusers and the fact that it allows you to put opponents in checkmate solutions where they lack effective counterplay. I think that this is only half of the story. The real strength of Substitute is how safe it is – that is, how little can go wrong by switching in a Substitute user in on a given turn. Put another way, people have been extensively analyzing the rewards of using Substitute, but the right way to gauge the strength of a move is in terms of the risk/reward, and Substitute is by far the move with the most skewed risk/reward.

To demonstrate this point, let's compare Sub to moves with healthier risk/reward ratios. A move with a healthy risk/reward is Shell Smash. The reward of getting a Shell Smash user in safely is pretty high – a mon with +2 in every offensive stat can do some heavy damage. But getting a Shell Smash user in play is difficult due to defense drops and status conditions and the threat of your opponent attacking, and you also have to worry about countersweeps from Transform or Heart Swap. High risk, high reward.

Will-O-Wisp is also balanced, with less extreme payoff. The reward for Wisping successfully is burning an enemy mon – useful, but usually not something that will lead to KOs. Thanks to the attack drop when burning, the risk involved in switching to a Wisp mon is lessened. Low risk, low-ish reward.

All this is turned on its head when we look at Substitute. The reward of using Substitute successfully is greater than that of using Shell Smash, since a Sub user with setup moves can use a free turn generated by Substitute to choose between setting up and going for direct damage. The risk involved in using Substitute is also less than that of using Will-O-Wisp, since the damage that can be done to a Sub user is capped under most normal conditions at 25% + hazards.

The consequence of this is that Substitute as an ability is conceptually broken. Substitute's power does not depend which Substitute abusers are effective in a given meta, nor on whether auxiliary strategies like Wish passing are banned or not – Substitute is an outlier in terms of risk/reward and this is a fact of the Trademarked OM.

2. It leads to linear, flowcharty gameplay and games may be determined by whose Substitute user has the better matchup

There have always been moves and abilities with low risk and high reward that define metagames, either for better or for worse. Stealth Rock and Scald are 2 examples of moves that changed competitive mons, but while SR punished passivity and promoted aggressive gameplay, Scald led to prolonged matches and rewarded passive play. How does Substitute shape the Trademarked metagame?

As a player who's laddered and spectated a fair amount, I feel qualified in saying that Trademarked is a metagame where your gameplan is determined by your Sub user's matchup versus your opponent's team and their Sub user's matchup versus yours. Let me illustrate my point with some replays.

Replay 1:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-904666827
In this game, sketchy ecchi autopilots to victory, switching in Heatran safely using momentum moves and items and using Protect to scout the opponent's counterplay. Milkito's Substitute user, being slow outside of Trick Room, was never able to get off the ground. Almost all of sketchy ecchi's turns were either spent using Protect, U-turn, switching into Sub Tran, or attacking something with Sub Tran, indicating that his strategy revolved heavily around exploiting his Substitute user.

Replay 2:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-907643159
In this game, Ktütverde gets the upper hand because he is able to use his Substitute mon to get kills while crippling his opponent's Sub mon. Tyranitar is able to come in on resisted hits and get free kills with Pursuit and Focus Punch. Using Substitute to guarantee a Pursuit trap is an idea also found in Imperator Romanum's team.

Replay 3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-910584133
This agonizing and protracted slog of a match is a result of Chansey + Buzzwole vs Chansey + Buzzwole. With neither side able to break through or wear down the opposing Substitute user, the game grinds to a halt. In the end it's the Buzzwole that knows Roost that is able to break the Buzzwole that does not (after 150+ turns).

These replays were not cherry-picked; they were the first ones I could get my hands on. This is the state of the metagame. Personally I think it's a shame that a meta like Trademarked – where the attraction is the wide variety of sets possible and the unpredictability of gameplay – can be solved by using a strategy designed to minimize risk.

3. Banning Substitute (and Wish) would make the tier less matchup-reliant and more skill-reliant

Substitute may be the most powerful thing right now, but it exists in an ecosystem where if it were to be removed, something else would take its place and shape the tier around it. What would happen if Substitute were banned, and would it change the tier for the better?

Like anyone else, I can only speculate about whether the tier would be more or less fun with Substitute gone, but as a general rule, I think we should strive for a balanced tier. As it currently stands, there is little room to outplay a Substitute user with good matchup against you, and this makes for a frustrating gameplay experience. In dozens of games I have observed a pattern where if I am winning I rarely have to double or predict, and if I am losing there is little chance to turn the battle around.

It may be the case that the next best move is Wish, and that a tier without Substitute would be a semi-stall funfest leading to 1000 turn battles. Independently of Substitute being overpowered, I think that Wish is a risk/reward outlier as well, and I would not mind seeing it banned either. I believe that banning Substitute and Wish will make safe pivoting less of a dominant strategy and lead to a tier where piloting one's win conditions to victory is less straightforward than it currently is.

On a closing note, I think the tier has gotten stale. There are only so many ways to abuse Sub or counter Sub and I'm running out of ideas and desire to play. I think we should view a Substitute ban as an opportunity to start fresh and figure out the tier again. Banning Sub may lead to a meta dominated by TR, or spikestack, or stall – who knows. But isn't the excitement of adapting to a new meta the reason why we play OMs in the first place? I think a Substitute ban would be a welcome change of pace.

TLDR: Substitute is overpowered due to being low risk/high reward and warps the tier to the point that there is little room to outplay a Substitute user with matchup advantage over you. Banning Substitute would make the tier more skill-intensive and hopefully lead to a balanced and more interesting tier.
 
Last edited:

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
I won't bother writing a novel on the sub issue. I just wanna say I don't really understand how sub makes offense better, I personally think Substitute makes offense almost unviable and that theres almost no reason not to use Chansey+sub balance (should've said Chansey+Buzzwole/Heatran). Mimikyu is known for being an anti-offense mon, so I let you imagine what sub is. Also I find it hard to justify using @ sub in offense, because there's no room to run @ defog so sub is just a liability cuz ur mon takes rocks+spikes+25% of sub damage and its almost dead. Sub is way better in stall/balance/w/e is the name of ur bulky team. Sub without @ wish and @ defog isn't that great. If you want good anti-offense measures in your own offense you will be using @ twave, @ heartswap, @ haze or @ wow for example.

Also I don't see the point of playing this meta anymore, sub is totally busted and I'm done memeing around with primarina chandelure and sound moves. Wish isn't a problem, the only problem is sub that becomes totally busted when paired with chansey/blissey. It's a flagrant example of what an uncompetitive strategy is and is probably worse than stuff like OU arena trap/shadow tag cuz that's just a safe strategy as Clefable said.

I can understand the meta hasn't been fully explored etc. But I've played enough Trademarked battles and can guarantee you that if your concern is that sub leaving will make offense hard to use, don't worry anymore: offense will start being decent when sub goes. Right now you had better focus on having counters to every relevant sub user, so you'll be using a bulky team with recovery defog etc.

Ban sub asap.


If you want to see how stupid is the meta centralization around sub, check this list:

Mandatory when building:
- sound moves (kommo, primarina, volcarona, chatot) or infiltrator
-having a 100% focus-punch-proof pokemon (cofagrigus, venusaur, tapufini..) cuz the sub-punch user will make 4 subs or maybe 8, 12 or 16 if its paired with chansey
-having a heatran-proof pokemon (one of the best sub abusers). Note that "heatran" and "proof" doesnt mean anything since heatran can usually beat everything especially with a sub. Best example is garchomp with roar and/or rest.
-having anti-toxicspikes pokemons (gengar, toxapex, venusaur) otherwise u will lose very, very hard to wish+sub
-using setup sweepers with multi-hit moves (cloyster..)
-taking into account other sub users (sub+TG manaphy, sub+DD dragons, sub+QD volcarona)

Most ppl won't be using this things and that's why most people lose to Clefable 's heatran team or that I went almost undefeated with Chansey+Buzzwole+tspikes. I'm not exaggerating.
 
Substitute, me first, mirror move should be the moves that must be banned; sub is practically a free hit or setup if you dont have a sound based move at the time, and for me first and mirror move is not fair to cause damage with a swap.

Also another issue is Chancey+sub/wish: practically if you dont 0KHO its pretty hard to deal with it, most pokes wont be able to do it, even with stab or suppereffective moves, this also kind of applies to most of toxapex sets .
 
With everything that's happening, I feel like Sub may not be sticking around for much longer in the meta, so I decided to post this team I've been using along with a feat that I'm proud of!

Sub Heatran + Toxic Spikes Tentacruel Semi-Stall (Peaked #1, 40-0)



175576
175578

(ps: Trademarking is also me! :o)

As you may (or may not) imagine, the inspiration for this team came from the popular Clefable's squad. Admittedly, I'm still not sure how the Mirror Move + Me First + Eject Button thing really works outside of the U-Turn and Volt Switch loop, but what really caught my atention was a part of the team that wasn't as flashy as the MF + MM core, but seemed incredibly strong: Sub Tran + TSpikes. With that core in mind, I started building the team:


I decided on Tentacruel as the Toxic Spikes user because of its speed + Rapid Spin. As a Tspike based team, I didn't intend to have a Defog user, so if I faced a hazard stack team, I wanted a spin user. Tentacruel's typing matches up better with Heatran's than Forretress's imo (Volt Switch is nice, so if you wanna use Forretress it's ok, the team looks way uglier tho lol).

Next, I knew I wanted to use Heart Swap Mag. Imo, Mag is a S tier mon in TM and the way it kinda dictates what set up mons are or aren't viable is crazy. That plus Volt Switch makes it an amazing pivot, and considering in my last team it was a Trick Room user (pretty good too), I knew I'd probably want to have it as Heart Swap user in my next one.

And this point, my team had a crippling ground weakness and couldn't really deal with Sub FPunch users well outside of stalling them with TSpikes. I think most defensively inclined teams should have either Wisp or Reflect, and as Wisp + Tspikes isn't the smartest combination, Reflect Zapdos comes in and checks a lot of stuff I mentioned. I honestly think Reflect Zapdos is an amazing mon for any type of team, it has such a vast movepool and good typing.

Don't let the the stage at which Chansey was added fool you: I intended on using it from the start lol.

I wasn't sure what I wanted for my last mon. I ended up deciding on SRock and decided to use Lando, as the team appreciated a rocker that could keep momentum and overall another ground immunity/Knock Off user. I started with Scarf Lando, but eventually decided max HP with Lefties and protect would fit the team better.
- Standard Magma Sub set.
- A lot of speed because no amount of Def investment is fixing that base stat, so might as well be fast.
- AV with a mix of Def and SpD EVs.
- Enough speed to oustpeed Jolly Bisharp and the rest goes to HP and Def. Defog bc Zapdos has a good match up vs Ferro, and spikes can be scary (don't think I've ever clicked it tho).
- A very niche set that I found out after hours of research: Wish Chansey :o
- Lefties Protect fits the team well, enough speed for Jolly Bisharp (again!) and max HP.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-910993400 - I really like this replay, it represents more matches that I played than you would imagine lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7trademarked-909840709 - Decently high ELO match against a mon that I consider very threatening (Bisharp).
That's it, should've saved more replays I guess
Pursuit Trappers - The team revolves heavily around Heatran + TSpikes. If they can pursuit trap either Tran or Tentacruel and get rid of the tspikes after, winning can get very hard. Bisharp is even more threatening than the other two, because Rock resistance and toxic immunity means it's hard to wear down.
Strong Physical Rock types - My dedicated Physical wall is weak to Rock and Magearna usually has a lot of stuff it needs to check, so it really doesn't appreciate taking a Gyro Ball or Close Combat/Earthquake. Stakataka specially, bc of the toxic immunity.
Toxic Spikes absorbers/ Reliable flying deffogers - They are less of a threat and more of a nuisance. It can get annoying tho.
Opposing Sub Heatran - I'll be honest and say I don't remember facing Sub Heatran and if I did my opp probably played it very poorly, but it seems very threatening.
Magma Storm Accuracy and PP - This team's biggest weakness tbh.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: substitute
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Taunt
- Protect

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: toxicspikes
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Protect

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: heartswap
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: reflect
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Discharge
- Heat Wave

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: wish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 184 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Protect
This team still hasn't lost a match, so go use it and change that! :^]

As for my thoughts on Sub, I think that at this point, even if Sub was to be considered not broken, it's clearly centralizing. It's the reason people are using Primarina, Chatot, Kommo-o, etc. While this team itself is more of a showing of what Sub + TSpikes can do together, it's also heavily based around abusing Sub Tran, and honestly, like the first replay I showed, so many teams just simply lose to it. It's not even a matter of outplaying, it's just an unwinnable match up. Maybe they should've taken Sub Tran into account when building, but how do you even do that? Like Ktütverde said, what is even a sub heatran counter? Reveng killing it with a Pursuit trapper is honestly the only somewhat consistent and viable way of doing it. While it was fun using this team and getting this peak, the amount of matches won at team preview or quick forfeits show that the strat is overall just too much for the meta.

Shout out to waiting 10 mins for a match that gives you 4 elo lol
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top