Metagame Trademarked

Just posting a quick thing to say that Mat block is banned from trademarked now. Was an oversight on my part as i genuinely forgot throh had it and only recalled greninja and throh in general was not even remotely used much at all before. Plus also taking note of post showing the shenanigans in combination with mat block and endure that can occur.

So it is now being banned for an error on my part of consistency and the cheese involved with it wnd endure.

Tagging Kris to implement this.
 
Okay now that Mat Block has been banned but endure hasn't been, I'd like to address an issue with the functionality of endure. See turn 29: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1215798165-un5tvqx1lro8mfd2q17bk543ggluhcspw

Regigigas died, I swapped in Nihilego and it "endured the hit" that killed Gigas, rather than the endure taking effect for the next turn as expected.

Furthermore, look at the ability/hazards order when corviknight comes in on spikes during gravity. It checks for hazards BEFORE it uses its ability (roost). By contrast, turn one has the game check for abilities before hazards, as shown by My opponent's Alakazam being poisoned by toxic spikes right at the start. This is an inherent inconsistency as to the order of checks. Either check for hazards then activate abilities or the other way around, not both. It should be hazards check then ability activation as is the case in standard formats (hence why things such as weather and intimidate don't activate if killed by rocks on switch in). In other words, hazards should not affect the starting mons because the hazard check is supposed to come before abilities activate.
 
Okay now that Mat Block has been banned but endure hasn't been, I'd like to address an issue with the functionality of endure. See turn 29: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1215798165-un5tvqx1lro8mfd2q17bk543ggluhcspw

Regigigas died, I swapped in Nihilego and it "endured the hit" that killed Gigas, rather than the endure taking effect for the next turn as expected.

Furthermore, look at the ability/hazards order when corviknight comes in on spikes during gravity. It checks for hazards BEFORE it uses its ability (roost). By contrast, turn one has the game check for abilities before hazards, as shown by My opponent's Alakazam being poisoned by toxic spikes right at the start. This is an inherent inconsistency as to the order of checks. Either check for hazards then activate abilities or the other way around, not both. It should be hazards check then ability activation as is the case in standard formats (hence why things such as weather and intimidate don't activate if killed by rocks on switch in). In other words, hazards should not affect the starting mons because the hazard check is supposed to come before abilities activate.
I checked your replay, and the "endured the hit" statement always occurs right when the Endure mon is switched in, regardless of whether the Endure mon takes a hit. Turn 29 is no exception. Endure not taking effect next turn after getting Endure Nihilego in after a KO also doesn't look unusual to me.

What looked more bizarre to me was Mat Block's effect persisting across turns, but if it behaves like Destiny Bond instead of Protect, even that can be justified.

Even Turn 1 can be explained with hazards check before abilities, as Accelgor's trademark set up hazards. Right before Alakazam's ability activates, its hazard check is done.
 
I checked your replay, and the "endured the hit" statement always occurs right when the Endure mon is switched in, regardless of whether the Endure mon takes a hit. Turn 29 is no exception. Endure not taking effect next turn after getting Endure Nihilego in after a KO also doesn't look unusual to me.

What looked more bizarre to me was Mat Block's effect persisting across turns, but if it behaves like Destiny Bond instead of Protect, even that can be justified.

Even Turn 1 can be explained with hazards check before abilities, as Accelgor's trademark set up hazards. Right before Alakazam's ability activates, its hazard check is done.
Just because it "always" says that doesn't mean it's supposed to. These things you're saying are exactly what's not supposed to happen. What's my reasoning? The way such things happen in the actual games. The game checks for conditions in a certain order and doesn't deviate. This is an om on a battle simulator. Mechanics are supposed to function identically as on cartridge save for the premise of the om. Changing the order in which battle conditions are checked does not count as an intended part of the om. Therefore it is an oversight or a bug and should be addressed. Which means in the case of ability activation vs hazard check, the hazard check needs to go first, including at the start of the match, which means hazards deployed by a trademark should not affect the lead Pokemon because the hazard check is supposed to be performed before the hazards are set, therefore they are not there to hurt the Pokemon upon being sent in at the start of the battle. Period. Endure is a bit trickier. It can either function the same as mat block has been and therefore let you endure the next turn when you send it in after another Pokemon is KOed, or it can read it as the turn being over and simply fail. But as it stands it should function like mat block because while it does say it "endured the hit" (despite not taking a hit at all) the very last thing the battle log says when you switch it in at the end of the turn is that it uses endure, which means it should be in effect for the upcoming turn exactly like it does for mat block.
 
Unfortunately lead hazard setting works because the game itself performs the slower hazard check after the faster* ability activates. You don't normally notice this since there no abilities which add or remove hazards.

*Exactly which Pokémon is considered first for the hazard check and ability activation at any given time depends on various factors.
 
Just because it "always" says that doesn't mean it's supposed to. These things you're saying are exactly what's not supposed to happen. What's my reasoning? The way such things happen in the actual games. The game checks for conditions in a certain order and doesn't deviate. This is an om on a battle simulator. Mechanics are supposed to function identically as on cartridge save for the premise of the om. Changing the order in which battle conditions are checked does not count as an intended part of the om. Therefore it is an oversight or a bug and should be addressed. Which means in the case of ability activation vs hazard check, the hazard check needs to go first, including at the start of the match, which means hazards deployed by a trademark should not affect the lead Pokemon because the hazard check is supposed to be performed before the hazards are set, therefore they are not there to hurt the Pokemon upon being sent in at the start of the battle. Period. Endure is a bit trickier. It can either function the same as mat block has been and therefore let you endure the next turn when you send it in after another Pokemon is KOed, or it can read it as the turn being over and simply fail. But as it stands it should function like mat block because while it does say it "endured the hit" (despite not taking a hit at all) the very last thing the battle log says when you switch it in at the end of the turn is that it uses endure, which means it should be in effect for the upcoming turn exactly like it does for mat block.
I did a couple quick test games to check if Matt Block and Endure will roll over to the next turn when used as moves, and neither of them do. If we are striving for Trademarks to mimic the move's behavior as much as possible, then Matt Block's effect rolling over to the next turn when used as a Trademark is a bug that should be fixed. Altho, it just got banned, so fixing it probably isn't high on the list of priorities.
 
I did a couple quick test games to check if Matt Block and Endure will roll over to the next turn when used as moves, and neither of them do. If we are striving for Trademarks to mimic the move's behavior as much as possible, then Matt Block's effect rolling over to the next turn when used as a Trademark is a bug that should be fixed. Altho, it just got banned, so fixing it probably isn't high on the list of priorities.
The reason Mat block carries over when sent out after a KO is because it's worded as "first turn out only" so since it wasn't in play during the turn your mon was KOed on, it counts the next turn as its first turn out (same way it reads what counts as first turn out for the purposes of using mat block normally as well as fake out and first impression) and that's why mat block carries over. In theory the reason why endure doesn't carry over is because it says "this turn" so since the text for it appears at the end of that turn, it won't carry over when switched in after a KO. The message about it enduring a hit it didn't take is simply erroneous but it is correct not to carry over while mat block does. So the only actual bug with mat block and endure is that erroneous message being misleading, but they do seem to work correctly now that I've more carefully analyzed the nature of endure. So the message just threw me off regarding what I said in my initial post on it. But I still maintain what I said about ability and hazard check order.
 
After some council discussion we are adding the ban of urshifu single strike style.

A fairly difficult mon to switch into with its stab combination and the raw power of plus one wicked blow after a bulk up that not even some resists can tank safely ontop of the crit effect of wicked blow ignoring boosts via moves like iron defense, make urshifu a powerful threat in the meta. Though many mons outspeed it , actually making it safe a mon to come in and tank to provide an opening to switch into something to ko it , as even noteable walls can find themselves 2hkoed by it. Its also not particularly frail outside of on the special side so its not necessarily just gonna any revenge kills from the physical side especially with the +1 from bulk up. So for all this , urshifu single strike is now banned from trademarked.

Its other form in urshifu rapid strike will also be kept on watch to see if it becomes a threat as its usage was overshadowed entirely over darkshifu who boasts a stronger stab that hit more types for neutral dmg.


tagging Kris to implement this.

edit: also after some quick discussion, adding the ban of corrosive gas as a trademark, as most noteably with mew and some other poison types, it basically makes the opposing team itemless and makes it easier to kill various item based strategies with a mere switch in and nullify choice scarfs allowing for faster threats or opposing choice scarf users to run free without opposition and even reduce dmg output by killing bands, specs and life orbs.
 
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Some new sets now that the Crown Tundra came out:


Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail
- Stone Edge

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: softboiled
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Aromatherapy
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Teleport

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: clangoroussoul
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Flamethrower
- Drain Punch
- Boomburst

Crobat @ Choice Specs
Ability: nastyplot
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Heat Wave

Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Psyshock

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: irondefense
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Body Press
- Defog
- Roost

Crobat lost its niche as a standard UU pokemon, due to typing and the overwhelming advantages legendaries have in OU. However, Garchomp is way too OP, Corviknight's fun, Chansey is too OP. Hatterene serves as a good magic bounce setup. Crobat with Nasty Plot Trademark is definitely exceptional. Replace one of his moves with shadow ball, and it can outspeed a gengar, but give the same punch. I was also considering an Aerodactyl lead with stealth rock trademark, something like this:


Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Taunt
 
Well, I made it to 1400 on my alt. Here's my degenerate Trick Room team, any suggestions to further improve it would be appreciated:

:Porygon2: Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trick Room
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Foul Play
- Teleport
- Recover
- Eerie Impulse
Primary TR setter. Teleport for safe switch-in, Recover for longevity. Foul Play to hit Swords Dance/Shell Smash Trademark mons. Last Slot is filler; I picked Eerie Impulse so I can play around with Special Attackers, but Toxic might be better in general.

:Escavalier: Escavalier @ Lum Berry
Ability: Swords Dance
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Substitute
Strong Physical hitter. Picked this over Marowak-A because it doesn't care much for Corrosive Haze (though that is less relevant now), and only takes neutral damage from Stealth Rocks. Have to run Substitute alongside Lum Berry to beat Will-o and T-wave Trademarks, and it also punishes attempts to stall out TR with Protect and double switches.

:Stakataka: Stakataka @ Life Orb
Ability: gravity
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Trick Room
So, version 1 of this team had Marowak-A, Glastrier and Hatterene, and I got smashed twice by Stakataka outspeeding me in TR. So, I decided to run one of my own for the same reason. This was before I realized I could run Power Trick Shuckle, although Stak isn't forced to switch out of every physical priority move. Anyway, Gravity means Stone Edge doesn't miss, and you can 2HKO non-Iron Defense-Trademark Skarm and Corv with Earthquake if you nail them on the switch.

:Runerigus: Runerigus @ Red Card
Ability: Will-O-Wisp
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Memento
- Trick Room
- Haze
- Earthquake
Used to be Dusclops here, but I needed something so Charge + Volt Switch wasn't free for my opponent. Red Card is for the off chance that Will-o-Wisp misses on a target but Rune manages to survive, giving me a second chance for a Burn. Trick Room + Memento for obvious reasons. Haze is filler; SR, T-Spikes, Destiny Bond are all good options.

:Hatterene:Hatterene (F) @ Lum Berry
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire
- Draining Kiss
My only special hitter. Not much to say here, does good damage after a Calm Mind.

:Mew: Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Imprison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Block
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell
- Transform
This is the most recent addition, so I'm not sure how well it works with the team. Basically, I needed something to handle Stall mons, and Imprison + Block + Transform seems like the best choice. Knock Off on the set so I can't get Knocked Off myself, which has some utility outside of fighting stall. Heal Bell so the opponent can't trade a mon for statusing Mew.
 
Curious to see what people's opinions are on a few Pokemon. This is a frustrating meta with all the BS Hyper Offense and Hyper Stall running around, but it's so fun when things work.

:spectrier:
And this guy has given me the most success out of anything. Nasty Plot may rob you of your fantastic ability, but +2 off such a high SpA stat means you can run Hex reliably without much of a power decrease. Sub Wisp is amazing versus slower offensive Pokemon and fat stuff. I've run Dark Pulse before so I can hit Normals with more than a burn, which helps if you want to wear down defensive barricades. Hazers are annoying, but you can't be Topsy-Turvy'd behind a Sub and a lot of Haze users fail to threaten you out fast enough, letting you spam Wisp and throw around Hexes all day.

:zapdos-galar:
Something I noticed a lot of were Defog trademarks, as well as some rarer moves like Sticky Web, Charm or Eerie Impulse. Gapdos came to mind as an effective punish for these Pokemon: just because you can change your ability doesn't mean you should, and I think Defiant is a great example. Nothing is scarier than being forced to give this monster a +2 because you auto-Defog on the switch. Unfortunately it really relies on these being present in a match and can be kinda lame without, but 125/100 Physical offenses is very respectable and can put in work in most games should you play it right.

:zarude:
I'm not too sure about this one but Jungle Healing is a fantastic option for it. It's essentially a weaker Regenerator with Natural Cure on top. This guy becomes a real pain to wear down as a result, since your damage or status isn't necessarily permanent. Terrifying late-game as your options to handle it become weaker and weaker. What really holds it back is being so painfully weak to U-Turn.

:blastoise:
water spout shell smash makes me want to die

:landorus-therian:
Scarf Stealth Rock makes this pretty annoying to deal with. Losing Intimidate sucks, but why run that when you can have something with a stronger effect or just have Haze? It's typing and offensive stats give this plenty of situations to switch-in and it just keeps getting Rocks up all day. Maybe not that great but if the meta continues to get toned down I see stuff like this becoming super clean. Gravity and SD are both super soldi as well, making your disgusting Earthquakes even more terrifying.

:roserade:
I haven't tried this at all, but I've been thinking about it. It's a serviceable offensive Poke with Spikes, and I think a Spikes trademark on it is really clean seeing as it doesn't have any valuable offensive abilities. You can threaten quite a few things with Sleep Powder and your powerful STABS, and every time it switches in the opponent has to deal with more Spikes going up. It's pretty much the best offensive auto-Spiker out there thanks to its decent Speed and high Special Attack, and unlike a lot of other Pokemon it doesn't need it's ability to pose a threat (looking at you, Diggersby and Scolipede). Feel like it would be a nightmare for Balance and Stall.
 

Kris

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Hi Whitephoenixace, I'm using my dev powers to declare a new clause: All self-switching and force-switching moves will be banned from being used as trademarks. They cause the server to use over 100% CPU and infinite switching (similar to Regenerator + Wimp Out in Shared Power) in any given battle if unbanned with /chall user, gen8trademarked@@@+roar, +whirlwind or /chall user, gen8trademarked@@@+teleport, +partingshot, +batonpass and cause the process to be unresponsive.
 
Hi Whitephoenixace, I'm using my dev powers to declare a new clause: All self-switching and force-switching moves will be banned from being used as trademarks. They cause the server to use over 100% CPU and infinite switching (similar to Regenerator + Wimp Out in Shared Power) in any given battle if unbanned with /chall user, gen8trademarked@@@+roar, +whirlwind or /chall user, gen8trademarked@@@+teleport, +partingshot, +batonpass and cause the process to be unresponsive.
Umm sorry for the one liner but I thought they were all already banned to being with?

Edit: Oh ok that makes sense thank you. Though it sounded like there were some that were somehow unbanned and were just getting banned now.
 
I haven't managed to find a team i really like yet, but I've found some really powerful options. I tried to avoid standard nasty plot/swords dance sets, as anything with swords dance/scarf/uturn is an obvious choice.

Here's a few ideas:

:Heatran:
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: scaryface
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Flash Cannon
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power

It's not exactly a sweeper, but i just love having the ability to force a switch with a super powerful move - a modest, specs, eruption from a base 130 special attack stat. This thing will 2HKO Blisseys and it's a pretty spectacular breaker if you have a momentum team that allows it a free switch. Anything that isn't boosted to surpass 500 speed is going to be crippled by scary face and if it doesn't resist fire, it's going to have a hard time living. This particular set was on a sun team (thus solarbeam), so you'll probably need to pick another move (Probably flamethrower?) to replace it.

:Raikou:
Raikou @ Magnet
Ability: electricterrain
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Volt Switch

This is basically the new and improved Tapu Koko. It's slower, maxing out at 361 speed, but it makes up for that in every other stat and 361 is practically the same in terms of what it ouspeeds. It has 115 SPA, compared to Koko's 95, which is a massive boost when we're talking about a sweeper. It has a better hp stat (90 compared to 70) and is far bulkier on the spdef side (100 spdef vs Koko's 75). It also has two key advantages. Access to rising voltage, which makes its damage output insane and access to scald, meaning ground types can't safely switch in. It's probably better to forget calm mind and just attack, because rising voltage is KOing most pokemon anyway (Example calc vs the Heatran above: 252 SpA Magnet Raikou Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Electric Terrain: 309-364 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO ). Playing around with items may be a good idea for this mon, magnet was just there for rising voltage damage, scarf, specs, expert belt, etc all could work.

:Zapdos:
Zapdos @ Expert Belt
Ability: Rain Dance
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Weather Ball
- Thunder
- U-turn

With how common thunderwave/glare is, i find electric type sweepers with ground coverage are really nice options. Since Zapdos got weather ball, it has been a rain team monster. Weather ball in the rain is essentially a base 100 stab water move, basically meaning this thing has no switch ins. Add 100% accurate stab thunder and hurricane? This thing is an offence monster and anything it doesn't just KO, it can get uturn momentum on. Roost also works instead of uturn, but i prefer playing this aggressively.


:Blastoise:
Blastoise @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: shellsmash
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Water Spout
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Rock Slide

Easily one of the best pokemon available right now and it's thanks to the combination of shell smash + Flip turn. Basically, with a shell smash, you outspeed everything and get at least one free hit off. You might water spout and aim for damage, or you flip turn and scout. Basically flip turn allows you to counter all of your answers, when you're set up you force switches or KOs, so flip turning on the incoming counter becomes incredibly easy, they can't psyche up because you flip turned, they can't haze because you just get momentum, they can't status because you just hit and run, heal and come back. A Blissey for example will live the water spout, but not the flip turn. The item is up to you, i choose heavy duty boots as this is my momentum mon and i like to keep water spout at max damage. Rock slide was for a pesky golisopode and that slot is just for whatever suits you at the time, all you really need is the first 3 moves. I really don't want this banned, but this is definitely the set that will get shell smash on the ban list.
^ I hate to say it because i love using it, but even just playing a few games with this thing makes me think it needs to be banned. Shell smash isn't inherently a problem with all of the instant haze/glare, etc options, but combined with stab, + 2 momentum and a 150 base power move? Run this set with a cleric like heal bell Mew and you have a mon without any answers.

:Zarude:
Zarude @ Choice Band
Ability: junglehealing
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Power Whip
- Darkest Lariat
- Close Combat

This is the ability it should have had and makes it soo much better. It's still not an incredible mon, but i think a more creative player could really do something with this mon. It's essentially an answer to all stall/balance mons. Jungle healing is basically regenerator + Natural cure in one. On top of Zarudes nice bulk, you can use it as a self-sufficient pivot on all of the possible status moves coming your way. The only problem is the typing is weak to u-turn and even from a Manidbuzz, that move does a good chunk + defensively it just suffers in general. I think a set with leftovers, bulk up, darkest lariat might be a great stall breaker, but i haven't toyed around with it much. Still, you'll find with the speed tier and longevity, it can serve a role in any team.

:Moltres:
Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: defog
EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Scorching Sands
- Roost

I've been loving this as my go-to defog user. Fire and flying is actually a nice defensive typing in a few situations, but i personally prefer the firepower. Defog just lets you reliably abuse hurricane and fire blast, scorching sands beats down heatran and roost gives you the longevity a defog user needs. Just a solid pick with good coverage and utility. I haven't seen a better defog user so far.

:Lucario:
Lucario @ Choice Band
Ability: Swords Dance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch

So you like Priority moves? Well this is the mon for you. Espeed for damage, bullet punch and close combat for anything that e-speed doesn't hit. Adamant Lucario hits 1050 Attack with this set, basically giving you Mega Lucario. This just cleans up offense teams with ease. A haze toxapex might be a problem, but if it runs haze, it doesn't run regen and so it gets whittled.

:Vileplume:
Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: strengthsap
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed

My god, this thing is just a monster. The ability to switch into a pokemon and potentially heal to full, whilst also dropping their attack? It's busted. Such a reliable switch in, with the ability to beat stall via toxic/leech seed and slowly chip away with giga drain. Synthesis gives you reliable recovery, and the quiet nature/lack of hps evs are all situational advantages, helping you beat trickroom and maximising HP recovery. I'd hope this doesn't get banned, as it clearly gets put down by +2 offence, but it seriously just puts down entire teams.


:Mew:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: healbell
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flip Turn
- Whirlwind
- Knock Off
- Roost

Just a run of the mill cleric. With the amount of status running around you need something that can heal your team and Mew is the obvious decision. It has so much utility and the ability to heal bell and get momentum in one turn, is really just priceless. You can easily play around with sets, this is just an example of what you can do. I tend to run balance teams with emphasis on breakers and sweepers, so a cleric is really necessary for me.


I wish there were more players for this OM, i feel like there's a lot of status moves that could be used far more creatively if we had a stable meta. For example, the bug move Powder, is something I'm dying to try, but i don't play enough fire types to justify it. I've also found nothing is particularly overpowered or over-centralising so far, which is great for a change. Besides perhaps trick-room, which I've personally had a lot of trouble with since i prefer running offense and i can't stop it without running trick-room myself.

I'd also remind people that regular pokemon still work great in this meta. For example, Guts, flame Orb conkledurr is an absolute monster. Drain punch/knock off/mach punch/facade. It can tear holes in teams pretty reliably.

Anyway, good luck out there.
 
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Just posting a quick thing to say that Mat block is banned from trademarked now. Was an oversight on my part as i genuinely forgot throh had it and only recalled greninja and throh in general was not even remotely used much at all before. Plus also taking note of post showing the shenanigans in combination with mat block and endure that can occur.

So it is now being banned for an error on my part of consistency and the cheese involved with it wnd endure.

Tagging Kris to implement this.
How has the Urshifu ban been implemented but not the mat block ban that came before it? I'm still able to use my mat block Throh 4 days later. And apparently corrosive gas was also banned in the same post as Urshifu but I'm still able to use corrosive gas as a trademark as well. Is there some issue with banning moves as trademarks right now?
 
Alright I have been messing around with 2 pokemon in particular that I would like to show off some sets to

Mew @ Choice Scarf
Ability: imprison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Transform
- Volt Switch
- U-turn
- Teleport/Flip Turn/Knock Off/Soft-Boiled/Roost/Whatever

This pokemon requires a bit of prediction to make work properly, but it is truly, the anti-volt-turn pokemon. Bringing mew in on a pivot move will negate it entirely, and, unless the pokemon in question is faster, cannot move the next turn, or the one after that, completely reversing momentum almost every time. Perhaps the best part about this set is that it beats other slow pivots. If you run teleport and teleport first with your clef/blissey and the opponent would go second, going into mew ensures that they won't use their pivot move, and that you'll completely disable whatever pokemon is in front of you next turn, and the turn after that.

Klefki @ Choice Scarf
Ability: fairylock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Foul Play
- Flash Cannon
- Dazzling Gleam

Klefki @ Eject Button
Ability: fairylock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes/Foul Play
- Recycle
- Flash Cannon/Steel Beam
- Dazzling Gleam

The eject button variant is especially good, keep in mind that both sets strait lose to any kind of protect move. Trapping is inherently broken, and I have claimed many an urshifu and fini to *insert electric type here* because the ability activates, they hit klefki, they get trapped, they lose the attacker. And the worst part? because klefki is max defense, it will probably tank 1 hit with low hp, so the next time it comes in, it will die, then trap the attacker again.
 
You can easily deal with tailwind team or tr team so not sure it's a good idea to ban this.
Of course without tw or tr it could be difficult..
 
I'm back with more things I want to talk about, since I've been playing a ton and going through around 8 teams of which only like 2 have given me decent success.

:marowak-alola: :stakataka: :porygon2: :hatterene: There's a lot of dumb stuff running around but TR has surpassed even Stall teams on the infuriating chart. It's so easy to set up and the abusers are extremely strong. Belly Drum on Maro is something I see a lot of, but you should really just run SD + Thick Club. Much more sustainable and everything you hit is going to die to your 1000+ Attack and 100+ BP STABS anyhow. Bonemerang lets it potentially break through Sash/Sturdy/Sub as well. Sub is great on it too to bait out any stray Sucker Punches and give it options when TR inevitably runs out. Playstyle in general is annoying to prep for and by far one of the least enjoyable match-ups. Priority can help but god forbid they have a Psychic Terrain user, cause if so you're doomed. It just never feels like there's a solution to these guys.

:mew: Huge movepool means you can't really predict what this thing is going to do. I've seen status Mew, Imprison Mew, Transform Mew, Screens Mew, and then you also get those that have Red Card and just don't die and it's that turn you lose the game. Easily the most obnoxious Pokemon in the meta; the Imprison/Transform combination is nigh-impossible to outplay once it gets going, and that's just one of Mew's many powerful sets. Not sure if it's inherently broken since it's got a bad defensive typing and it's a particularly good offensive threat, but man do I hate having this around.

:regigigas: I think Gravity on this dude is really good. It enables you to use Mega Kick without missing all your attacks, and throwing out 120 BP STAB off your disgusting Attack Stat proves to be extremely strong. It sucks not having a boosting move, but just being able to have anything not Slow Start is a god-send, and Gravity pairs well with it since it has Earthquake for a great complimentary coverage move. You also have Gravity letting it support the team as well, which is very handy for other EQ spammers, low accuracy moves, or making sure your Hazards can get pesky Flying-types, should any of them not be running HDB anyhow...

:corviknight: Depending on where things are heading this is such a great overall Pokemon. It's got tons of utility and set-up options. I've used it on a fair chunk of teams without really intending to, and have seen it literally everywhere.

:suicune: Driving home today and thought, "yo, aqua ring is like a permanent leftovers." CroCune is a classic and it's still terrifying. Pair it with hazards and paralysis support, and you can spam Substitute + Calm Mind freely. Regaining 1/8 of it's HP every turn works wonders, and it doesn't fear Knock Off nearly as much (though you should still play this carefully because it's a fantastic wincon you do not want to cripple in any way).

:zygarde-10%: With the big Z banned it's not surprising to see Zydog running about trying to recreate its dominion. It suffers from severe frailty but a DD is a DD and with access to two of the stupidest offensive moves in the game it can be extremely scary to face, especially with its great Speed stat. Access to Glare is fantastic too, giving it additional team support whether you Trademark it or not.

:zeraora: Charge has been the only thing I've run Zera with and it's a great choice. A shame Regieleki doesn't have that move, but also that would be awful if it did. With Hazer being so common any means to increase damage without it being stat changes is appreciated, and doubling the damage of a Plasma Fists/Volt Switch is great for picking off threat or keeping moment while dishing out heavy damage. Getting a free +1 SpD is a great bonus as well.
 
Ok, so as usual I played TR but to my surprise 33-50% of the people do too. Funny.

I made a team with two TR setters, but thought that it was useless so I decided to run only 1. Apparently, I'm the only one who did that.

Because there aren't many players, I'm gonna give my team (tired of waiting). My style is always to try to cover EVERY possible opposite teams so that make my teams always hard to play but I reached 1500+ quite easily.

Here is the team:

Code:
Golisopod @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Sucker Punch
- Liquidation
- Spikes

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: laserfocus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Jirachi @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: trickroom
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Doom Desire
- Healing Wish

Snorlax @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: bellydrum
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def / 116 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Facade
- Darkest Lariat
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

Hydreigon @ Eject Button
Ability: defog
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- U-turn

Xurkitree @ Metronome
Ability: charge
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Volt Switch
The only thing you can change is Snorlax Brick Break to Heat Crash and maybe the item on Xurkitree

I will not tell you how to play it, it's the fun of the discovery and if people copy it, at least they can have some surprises.
But here are some random replays (dunno what they are about):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1218739776-ymcg00cml0xpiqv80f00uhqncba4o1spw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1220119839-mcbo6bwz1tlp92xtxvvfnf7idgz94b2pw
Can post more if wanted, i have a dozen.

Note that I've being traumatized by two teams:
- One Hyper Offense that had been designed to beat Trick Room and so with my sole TR setter, it was kinda hard (still winnable though).
- The other was a hard stall using Regirock and Registeel with defensive setup abilities (amnesia, iron def) which are the banes of TR. I faced him only once and switched to Laser Focus on Marowak cause of it (during that match, my Snorlax +6 did 54% instead of 55% to Regirock who OKed me in return and then it was over, bit of bad luck i'd say). Every other top ladder stall teams were beaten but it's never easy. Btw I didn't play much and not at the start, so I didn't face all type of teams

Of course, this team becomes much less powerful once it's known, especially against people who have anti TR measures or against stall but that's the only way to share it lol

Have fun. (feel free to send me replays of u playing the team too)
 
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5 Anti-Trick Room techs that can be used on any team (TLs DON'T want you to know this!)

There's no getting around it — Trick Room is a thing, and it's going to sweep an unprepared team. That's why the scientists from Smogon's most classified labs have been devised these anti-TR techs to turn the tables in your favor. Read on!

5. :Heatran: Substitute anti-leads :Garchomp:

So before we dismantle Trick Room, let's examine its gameplan. First, it has to set Trick Room somehow. Then, it needs to get setter out and sweeper in as safely as possible. Then, it has 3-4 turns of clicking buttons and dropping bodies. Rinse and repeat until all opposing pokemon are dead. To beat TR then, we need to either hit them hard before they get set up, or be able to survive the TR turns.

That's where anti-lead Substitute comes in. Send a threatening lead Pokemon in that forces a switch or Teleport from their TR setter and set up a Substitute. From there, you can either attack or keep clicking Substitute to stall out turns and eventually countersweep. Good candidates for Substitute users are stallbreakers with good matchups versus typical TR setters like Porygon2, Slowbro, Hatterene, and Stakataka.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Sunny Day
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Nasty Plot
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot
- Substitute

Garchomp @ Lum Berry / Yache Berry
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Fire Fang
- Substitute

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Nasty Plot
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Pain Split
- Substitute

4. :Lycanroc-Dusk: Priority with appropriate typing :Blastoise:

There are many goons that TR can run, but every TR team worth its salt will have an Alolan Marowak, and one of the many benefits to Ghost/Fire typing (aside from perfect coverage) is immunity to Extreme Speed, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, as well as 4x resistance to First Impression. To perform well against TR, better priority options are Accelerock, Aqua Jet, and Sucker Punch.
Lycanroc-Dusk @ Life Orb
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Psychic Fangs

Blastoise @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: shellsmash
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Water Spout
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam

Golisopod @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat / Liquidation / Knock Off
- Spikes / Knock Off

Bisharp @ Leftovers
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Substitute

3. :Regieleki: Protect / Endure :Toxapex:

Another approach is to simply stall out Trick Room turns. Between Endure and Protect, two of TR's precious turns are wasted, and since Trick Room is a playstyle that can win or lose by 1 turn, packing Protect can make a big difference, especially when combined with residual damage in the form of poison or Leech Seed.

As an aside, all of these Anti-TR techs so far can also be used as counterplay versus Tailwind teams, which are also quite strong.
Regieleki @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Endure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Protect
- Thunder Cage
- Rapid Spin

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Haze / Toxic Spikes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Baneful Bunker
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes / Haze / Scald / Toxic

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Leech Seed
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Amnesia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Teleport
2. :Rhyperior: Curse / Naturally slower pokemon :Hatterene:

Of course, Trick Room's entire gameplan goes out the window when their sweepers can't sweep during Trick Room. The "magic numbers" to beat are 85 speed for underslowing Marowak and other base 45s and 27 for underslowing Stakataka. Even for stall teams, these numbers can be tricky to meet (run min speed on your Pex!), but thanks to Curse, you can bring Pokemon that pull their weight inside and outside of TR.
Hatterene (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: calmmind
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Psyshock
- Trick Room

Rhyperior @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: curse
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Body Press
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: curse
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Heavy Slam

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: spikes / curse
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Body Press
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed / Spikes / Power Whip

1. :Tapu-Fini: Lagging Tail :Runerigus:

Trick + Lagging Tail is the ultimate in speed control, working versus every Pokemon on TR or HO. As a bonus, Trick disrupts items as well, which is especially bad news for those Thick Club-loving Marowaks out there, as well as teams which rely on Heavy Duty Boots to not get ground down in the long run.
Tapu Fini @ Lagging Tail
Ability: trick
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 160 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf

Runerigus @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Trick
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Toxic Spikes
- Poltergeist
- Haze

Victini @ Lagging Tail
Ability: Trick
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Bolt Strike
- Toxic

So there you have it, 5 techs that can be slapped onto any team. This isn't a comprehensive list of TR answers — as the post above us mentions, Screens/defense boosting/your own TR setter to undo Trick Room can possibly cteam Trick Room even harder than these techs. But hopefully these suggestions are flexible to work onto your own teams and give you the edge you need to win in that dreaded matchup!
 
Definitely evil post by Clefable (as usual, your posts are golden). I feel like exposed. All these methods also work in other metagames ofc :D

And yes, Trick (+ laggin tail) is probably the worst thing against my team to the point I feel like Trick is kinda overpowered in a good stall team (because usually to beat a hard stall team, your team has one or two pokemons that can change the tide in your favour, trick can destroy that hope and you can't even switch out).
 
Ok I normally don't use the forums (I merely browse because I find the discussion interesting or want to see what's being discussed, I usually don't have anything to contribute because I'm not that great at pokemon.) but I just wanted to drop in and ask how Regigigas hasn't been banned from Trademarked yet. It's a pokemon with great stats across the board at 670 BST, and the only thing that holds it back normally is having a terrible ability.

I don't have a lot of evidence to show myself, but maybe by asking I can at least get the ball rolling for Gigias to either be quickbanned or at least discussed.
 

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