Ubers is now a tier; a new Metagame called Anything Goes is added; M-Ray is banned from Ubers

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There really weren't "intelligent decisions" to make. If the opponent outsped you and landed Swagger, you were either forced to try the 50/50 or switch out and potentially get Swaggered again. Pokemon like Kingdra could Swagger their typical counters and possibly be able to break past them purely on chance.
I just don't see how you can argue that it's any worse than the other status moves out there. At least you have a chance of screwing over the person using Swagger. If someone faster uses Thunder Wave on you, you're crippled for the rest of the fight in more ways than one unless you switch a billion times to use Heal Bell (if you even HAVE Heal Bell).

foul play has use beyond swagplay. thunder wave has use beyond swagplay. swagger's only use is in swagplay, because the only reason you'd want to explicitly raise your opponent's attack exponentially is to completely ensure you can keep them from attacking you, and to capitalize on their high attack. otherwise, you're relying on the worst kind of luck; the kind that isn't in your favor.

of course, this discussion is meaningless, because as you've said, AG exists now, and if you haven't noticed the merry band of klefki terrorizing the land, swagplay works quite well still
I'm not usually taking a gamble when I use it. I use it on a Pokemon that can actually take the boosted (sometimes even boosted, super effective moves) and slap them with STAB Foul Play right after. Either way, if using Swagger to boost Foul Play's damage and completely ruin hyperoffensive Pokemon makes me a stupid player, so be it. I just like having these options.

People were saying the same things when Swagplay was actually up for discussion, about it being used only for Swagplay. But that's nonsense. Other strategies were brought up back then, like Swagsire. I've also personally used Swagger to punish Baton Passers (they often seem to forget that Confusion passes as well). You and whoever made the decision to ban it simply decided to sweep all of that under the rug. Also, I've only done a few fights in AG so far, but I only found one Klefki and it wasn't even Prankster Swagplaying. AG has been very unpredictable so far, but it has been very fun because of that.
 

Inspirited

Formerly WreckDra
is a Contributor Alumnus
So i dont have much metagame analysis to add but so far this new Oras Uber metagame is kinda fun. Ive seen some neat solutions for these standard teams and just using standard teams for now has been tons of fun.

Im really enjoying this unbalanced tier at the moment because the strong centralization lets you explore some fun solutions. It might not be rly balanced since almost every team has MRay+PDon but its nontheless pretty exciting to see what people think of to stop certain threats.
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted :[. I was hoping we would see another week of the Mega Ray metagame, just to see what developed from it (I was mostly interested in Shrang's stall endeavors). It was pretty clear Mega Ray was the best mon in the game by a very large margin though and would have to be dealt with in some way or another at some point, though.

Time to start building DragTag/Mag teams I guess :]]].
 

Blue Jay

The notorious Good Wife
is a Contributor Alumnus
I just don't see how you can argue that it's any worse than the other status moves out there. At least you have a chance of screwing over the person using Swagger. If someone faster uses Thunder Wave on you, you're crippled for the rest of the fight in more ways than one unless you switch a billion times to use Heal Bell (if you even HAVE Heal Bell).

I'm not usually taking a gamble when I use it. I use it on a Pokemon that can actually take the boosted (sometimes even boosted, super effective moves) and slap them with STAB Foul Play right after. Either way, if using Swagger to boost Foul Play's damage and completely ruin hyperoffensive Pokemon makes me a stupid player, so be it. I just like having these options.

People were saying the same things when Swagplay was actually up for discussion, about it being used only for Swagplay. But that's nonsense. Other strategies were brought up back then, like Swagsire. I've also personally used Swagger to punish Baton Passers (they often seem to forget that Confusion passes as well). You and whoever made the decision to ban it simply decided to sweep all of that under the rug. Also, I've only done a few fights in AG so far, but I only found one Klefki and it wasn't even Prankster Swagplaying. AG has been very unpredictable so far, but it has been very fun because of that.
None of this addresses the inherent uncompetitiveness of using Swagger. Literally the only reason anyone would use it is to try to benefit from coin flips. Swagger is never a strategic play, because it does not accomplish anything reliably. Thunder Wave and other status have consistent strategic use. Swagplay was definitely not the only strategy considered in the process; obviously some of the player base was less informed, but Swagger could be very (uncompetitively) effective without Foul Play. Again, there is absolutely no teambuilding justification to use it beyond trying to gain an advantage through luck, and it was too effective in accomplishing this to allow in the metagame.
 
Wow, Game Freak finally broke Ubers.
I personally support this as I could see how ludicrously overpowered Mega Rayquaza is. I didn't even play ORAS Ubers and I knew everyone was going to use it. I was even thinking about suggesting a metagame in-between OU and Ubers that would make Ubers in essence this new Anything Goes (though keeping things like the Moody Clause) and the in-between tier "Balanced Ubers". But now I don't have to. Thanks, Chaos.

I am predicting that Anything goes will be dominated by Mega 'Quaza and 6 Arceus teams. And the occasional Moody psychopath.
Literally the first thing I thought of after seeing the name for AG

CaptButterToast, you are my hero.

I would say RIP Mega Rayquaza, but this isn't so much death as it is ascension to godhood.
And you have summed this up beautifully.
 
I feel like this decision owes a lot to the differing viewpoints on what Ubers should be, especially after all the elbow rubbing during the shadow tag debate and subsequent recount. In retrospect though, the winner is clear here, as AG is a mockery of the people who argued (sometimes acidicly) on grounds of seeing ubers as the tier with the least bans. Yes M-quaza was going to be removed according to either ideal. But doing it on a level with moody smeargle is kinda insulting. It's just rolfing people in custombattle format with the small minority of opponet's on the find tab knowing and being able to fight back.
 
Anything Goes is actually a hilarious tier. There are so many sites where people criticize smogon for bans. I guess we finally have replays to show them if they ask.

Pretty much the entire tier is Smeargle, Klefki, and M-Rayqyaza.
 
Anything Goes is actually a hilarious tier. There are so many sites where people criticize smogon for bans. I guess we finally have replays to show them if they ask.

Pretty much the entire tier is Smeargle, Klefki, and M-Rayqyaza.
People criticizing Smogon will find anything to complain about. I found out about the change from someone whining about how "Smogon made a new tier just to ban Mega Rayquaza".
 
That was the only and correct decision regarding Mega Rayquaza. This monstrosity can only be checked, and even it's checks are shaky because of Mega Ray's raw power and spectacular coverage. When I ran some calcs about a week ago, I was astonished at how virtually nothing is safe. This is clearly a god-sent Pokemon for the Hyper Offense playstyle (I stated HO because it fits best in that archetype), capable of breaking anything and sweep through everything.
 
Ok, what will smogon do if Game freak give us a primal arceus with an ability that makes arceus imune to all moves not fired by another arceus, while making all its moves OHKO? Will create a arceus tier? What if they release a primal dialga and a primal palkia with an ability that makes their moves allways hit first + removing must recharge, even before fake out, while making spacial rend and roar of time OHKO with perfect accuracy on anything not called arceus ? It makes sense from storyline perspective that the god pokemon, wich created everything, can beat anything .Cyrus wanted Dialga and Palkia to destroy the UNIVERSE. ALL THE UNIVERSE. Most of the ubers are planetary threats at most. It makes sense for rayquaza, from storyline perspective, to be able to beat both groudon and kyogre with easy, as it had to stop a fight between them. It had to be something that they wouldnt dare to challenge.
 
honestly i think they shouldve made a complex ban involving the primals and mega rayquaza. Like for example- you cannot have 2 primals and a mega on a same team and cannot have a mega and a primal on the same team and you cannot have 2 primals on the same team because its like you have 2-3 mega pokemon on same team. Instead they just went and made a whole new tier....
 
Ok, what will smogon do if Game freak give us a primal arceus with an ability that makes arceus imune to all moves not fired by another arceus, while making all its moves OHKO? Will create a arceus tier? What if they release a primal dialga and a primal palkia with an ability that makes their moves allways hit first + removing must recharge, even before fake out, while making spacial rend and roar of time OHKO with perfect accuracy on anything not called arceus ? It makes sense from storyline perspective that the god pokemon, wich created everything, can beat anything .Cyrus wanted Dialga and Palkia to destroy the UNIVERSE. ALL THE UNIVERSE. Most of the ubers are planetary threats at most. It makes sense for rayquaza, from storyline perspective, to be able to beat both groudon and kyogre with easy, as it had to stop a fight between them. It had to be something that they wouldnt dare to challenge.
Smogon are the Judas to GameFreak's grand plan and ban everything they see fit.
 
honestly i think they shouldve made a complex ban involving the primals and mega rayquaza. Like for example- you cannot have 2 primals and a mega on a same team and cannot have a mega and a primal on the same team and you cannot have 2 primals on the same team because its like you have 2-3 mega pokemon on same team. Instead they just went and made a whole new tier....
That would've been a needlessly elaborate way to just dismiss the whole deal of Primal forms being specifically designed different from Megas and STILL wouldn't have fixed the problem of Mega Rayquaza existing.
 
honestly i think they shouldve made a complex ban involving the primals and mega rayquaza. Like for example- you cannot have 2 primals and a mega on a same team and cannot have a mega and a primal on the same team and you cannot have 2 primals on the same team because its like you have 2-3 mega pokemon on same team. Instead they just went and made a whole new tier....
Ok, but how does that solve the problem of Mega Rayquaza ruining the tier?
 

MrAldo

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Creating a whole new "tier" for banning utterly broken stuff in ubers was clearly the best solution. Complex bans are way too complex to implement plus with complex bans you will still be able to use mega rayquaza.

Mega rayquaza was broken by itself. Mega rayquaza paired with a mega was downright a GG to the opponent.
 
My point with the primal arceus example is, there might be anything goes 2 and 3? Its likely that DP remakes will launch next gen, they might make unbeatable pokemons (primal dialga and palkia) if they really want to give the player the feeling that the universe was in risk. They might make it just join your team to escape from red chain control in a pokebal, so you wont just be ` what, i just defeat a universal threat with regular pokemon`. If mega rayquaza cant beat primal arceus, will it drop to Ubers? I know that there arent unbeatable pokemon yet, but i just would like to know what smogon would do in such situation.
 
My point with the primal arceus example is, there might be anything goes 2 and 3? Its likely that DP remakes will launch next gen, they might make unbeatable pokemons (primal dialga and palkia) if they really want to give the player the feeling that the universe was in risk. They might make it just join your team to escape from red chain control in a pokebal, so you wont just be ` what, i just defeat a universal threat with regular pokemon`. If mega rayquaza cant beat primal arceus, will it drop to Ubers? I know that there arent unbeatable pokemon yet, but i just would like to know what smogon would do in such situation.
Absolutely nothing, since Anything Goes is a tier where there will be no bans. Chaos said it himself. There's never going to be bans from that tier, with the exception of endless battle clause.
 
My point with the primal arceus example is, there might be anything goes 2 and 3? Its likely that DP remakes will launch next gen, they might make unbeatable pokemons (primal dialga and palkia) if they really want to give the player the feeling that the universe was in risk. They might make it just join your team to escape from red chain control in a pokebal, so you wont just be ` what, i just defeat a universal threat with regular pokemon`. If mega rayquaza cant beat primal arceus, will it drop to Ubers? I know that there arent unbeatable pokemon yet, but i just would like to know what smogon would do in such situation.
If we get more ridiculous Pokemon like Primal Dialga/Palkia/Giratina/Arceus, then if they allow a metagame that seems at least somewhat sane like Primal Groudon/Kyogre, they'll be allowed in Ubers, and if not, they'll be restricted to Anything Goes like Mega Rayquaza.

Restriction to AG is a banlist from Ubers, just like how Ubers is a banlist from OU. A Pokemon's performance in Ubers is irrelevant to whether or not it's banned in OU, and the same way, performance in AG is irrelevant to whether or not a Pokemon is banned in Ubers. If we get a Primal Arceus that crushes everything else, including Mega Rayquaza, then Primal Arceus will be locked to AG, but that will not affect Mega Rayquaza's placement. Mega Rayquaza will only be allowed back in Ubers if it somehow becomes reasonable in Ubers.
 

Tomahawk

de aardappeleter
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At least an aristocracy is the slightest ethical. If influencing votes and overturning majority bans isn't dictatorial, I don't know what is.
That didn't even happen in the end, so your argument is pretty invalid. (And if it did, the same can be done in an aristocracy.)

Also, a dictatorship is only 1 person controlling everything, which I can tell you is not the case. It is definitely an aristocracy.
 
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