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Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v2 - Pokemon Home Edition
- Thread starter Fc
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It is my personal opinion that a formal evaluation may be required due to the capabilities of Ting-Lu in effectively overcoming the mentioned scenario. It is worth noting that the range of viable strategic options beyond the utilization of Tera Blast appears to be restricted. The presence of two substantial vulnerabilities, in the form of 4x weaknesses, renders Calyrex-Shadow significantly susceptible. While the inclusion of Tera Normal could potentially enhance Calyrex-Shadow's performance in certain matchups, the decision to allocate Terastalizing resources elsewhere may need to be carefully weighed in terms of its overall strategic value.
PokéGPT
lol Buddy what do you mean
Did you actually generate this with GPT?!
Anyway, the best Calyrex-S sets use Tera Blast + Tera Fighting; Specs Tera Fighting Tera Blast 2HKO's 252/252+ Ting-Lu so Ting-Lu is not a counter (it gets KOed if it switches in). The sweeper sets are very good but it's really the wallbreaking sets that push Caly over the line.
I don't know why you are saying this 
It's an authoritarian answer with no grasp of English or any actual examples. It STINKS of being Chatbot-generated.I don't know why you are saying this
FishSucksAtPKMN
Banned deucer.
legit would just be a gen 8 PH situation all over again, where AG would have to revolve around arceus-legend in every single capacity
I'm very late in checking this thread, and instead of just deleting this I'm going to reply to you in the hopes that you're just a new user doing new user things and this will be of some help to you.
The content of first half of your post is knowledge that everyone has - Ting-Lu can switch into Calyrex and Calyrex is 4x weak to Dark, all this having an asterisk due to Tera. The second half of your post barely expands on that asterisk by mentioning one Tera type and stating that using Tera on Calyrex means you can't use it on anything else and the decision needs to be weighed properly.
This does not give your stance on the question at the time - Calyrex-Shadow and its position in the Ubers metagame. This only has information that (almost) everyone is aware of, and you have not injected any of your opinion or experience on the actual matter at hand. This also doesn't offer any separate points of contention or discussion either. What we're left with is just a note that doesn't add anything and is probably just repeating the pointers from the OP of the suspect test at best.
I would suggest when you make a post, put in your opinions and experience when it's for a discussion. If you're just answering a simple question then bare information is fine, but when it's an open discussion then your post cannot be just flat data that everyone already knows woven into a sentence. You have to add something, for example your own experience playing the tier, or if you're presenting some novel data then it should help provide a new point for discussion or help guide an existing point further.
Obviously I'm hoping that your message wasn't just spat out by ChatGPT even though your other message (that I deleted) doesn't give me a lot of confidence.
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Edit: While I'm here I might as well give my own views on the meta from the brief spectating I've done. Tera mindgames are more complicated but at the same time not instantly game deciding from what I've seen. There's a semblance of balance in the tier and I'm enjoying the rapid development of the metagame going on for example the sub Tera Ghost Koraidon and the random appearances of Grassceus. Still looking forward to Chi-Yu dismantling a team this UPL.
Miraidon is pretty clearly the #1 threat in Ubers right now, and there aren't a ton of great answers. However, I think I've found one pokemon which does a pretty good job at slowing it down, Assault Vest Dialga.
Dialga @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 124 HP / 132 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
The general idea of this set is to be a Miraidon switch-in that can threaten it with an OHKO, while still still having use against the rest of the metagame. The bulk I've invested here seems like a lot, but it's specifically made to ensure that it will live even a Specs Miraidon Draco Meteor, and it still OHKOs Miraidon in return:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 315-371 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- not a KO
132 SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 386-456 (113.1 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There aren't many downsides of running Assault Vest, either; Dialga doesn't have many status moves it would like to run aside from maybe Substitute and Stealth Rock, and this set definitely won't get much benefit from either of those.
Even if you don't spec it to specifically beat Miraidon, Assault Vest Dialga is still good because it can deal with special attackers' attacks in the tier while dealing damage in return. Everything from Regieleki to Flutter Mane to Non-ground Judgement Arceuses. The only other Special Attacker it has trouble with is Chi-Yu, and even then, this spread has an about even chance to survive two Modest Specs Overheats:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 344-407 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
And being a wall that can potentially stand up to the ultimate wallbreaker is really good to me. The best part is that the Ubers metagame is so fast that Dialga doesn't need to bother investing in speed to be effective. The only real benefits to increased speed would be to speed tie Groudon and Kyogre and beat Great Tusk. That last one does hurt a bit, but the point is that Dialga gives up very little by running bulk over speed, and in return checks almost every Special Attacker around. Sure, this set won't obliterate entire teams, but it's not supposed to. By standing up to many of the most fearsome attackers in the metagame and beating them in return, it can take out key threats to your team and pave the way for a victory.
As for the moves, Draco Meteor is obvious to OHKO Miraidon, as well as being a powerful nuke in general. Earth Power is a reliable option for beating Substitute Miraidon variants or weakened Miraidon. Flash Cannon provides steel STAB, primarily for taking out Flutter Mane, and Fire Blast is a more powerful option against rogue Iron Treads or Zacian-Crowned switch-ins. You could certainly justify running Focus Blast to OHKO Chi-Yu, though.
Dialga @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 124 HP / 132 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Fire Blast
The general idea of this set is to be a Miraidon switch-in that can threaten it with an OHKO, while still still having use against the rest of the metagame. The bulk I've invested here seems like a lot, but it's specifically made to ensure that it will live even a Specs Miraidon Draco Meteor, and it still OHKOs Miraidon in return:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 315-371 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- not a KO
132 SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 386-456 (113.1 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There aren't many downsides of running Assault Vest, either; Dialga doesn't have many status moves it would like to run aside from maybe Substitute and Stealth Rock, and this set definitely won't get much benefit from either of those.
Even if you don't spec it to specifically beat Miraidon, Assault Vest Dialga is still good because it can deal with special attackers' attacks in the tier while dealing damage in return. Everything from Regieleki to Flutter Mane to Non-ground Judgement Arceuses. The only other Special Attacker it has trouble with is Chi-Yu, and even then, this spread has an about even chance to survive two Modest Specs Overheats:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 344-407 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
And being a wall that can potentially stand up to the ultimate wallbreaker is really good to me. The best part is that the Ubers metagame is so fast that Dialga doesn't need to bother investing in speed to be effective. The only real benefits to increased speed would be to speed tie Groudon and Kyogre and beat Great Tusk. That last one does hurt a bit, but the point is that Dialga gives up very little by running bulk over speed, and in return checks almost every Special Attacker around. Sure, this set won't obliterate entire teams, but it's not supposed to. By standing up to many of the most fearsome attackers in the metagame and beating them in return, it can take out key threats to your team and pave the way for a victory.
As for the moves, Draco Meteor is obvious to OHKO Miraidon, as well as being a powerful nuke in general. Earth Power is a reliable option for beating Substitute Miraidon variants or weakened Miraidon. Flash Cannon provides steel STAB, primarily for taking out Flutter Mane, and Fire Blast is a more powerful option against rogue Iron Treads or Zacian-Crowned switch-ins. You could certainly justify running Focus Blast to OHKO Chi-Yu, though.
Hey, guys. It’s me again. I’ve been trying to play on ladder again as of late and while I still can’t escape the depths of low ladder (I’d still consider myself more of a casual player than someone who’s going to grind games every day), I think I’ve found a sleeper threat that from early playtesting seems to perform pretty well against the offensively inclined metagame. This is my new friend Calyrex.
…wait a second, that’s the wrong Calyrex form. Besides, didn’t we ban that one?
Ah, that’s better. Existing in the shadow (pun intended) of its counterpart alongside suffering from the slight base power nerf to Glacial Lance as well as the removal of some of its better options (namely High Horsepower), it made sense to me that Day 1 impressions of the more balanced of the two Calyrex Formes wouldn’t be as enthusiastic as the stronger staples of the HOME metagame, especially with Zacian-Crowned and its Behemoth Blade being allowed back. In contrast to early impressions of Gen 9 Calyrex-Ice, however, I do believe this Pokémon has a legitimate niche on Trick Room teams, and a powerful one at that.
Trick Room caught my interest pretty early on in Gen 9 Ubers, as I initially projected the archetype to have a strong matchup against the hyper offense teams that stacked several speedy threats. While this projection is accurate, the pre-HOME Ubers metagame didn’t experiment with Trick Room very much due to a lack of viable setters in the tier alongside New Toy Syndrome prompting players to sway towards more consistent archetypes. At first, HOME’s reintroduction of not just Calyrex-Ice, but also Magearna, Cresselia, and more potential abusers like the relatively unexplored Ursaluna, Dialga, Dialga-Origin, and post-Calyrex-Shadow Annihilape seemed to provide a solution to this, but said strategies would rarely see the light of day with Calyrex-Shadow’s effect on offensive team building across the board. But finally, now that Calyrex-Shadow is banned from a metagame that could viably incorporate the Trick Room archetype again… well…
Calyrex-Ice @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Glacial Lance
- Zen Headbutt
- Stomping Tantrum
My early playtesting suggests that you can’t just lead with Calyrex-Ice, set up Trick Room turn 1, and go to town. Experienced players can and will know how to play against the Trick Room archetype, particularly as it becomes more developed. On paper this set I’ve been practicing with doesn’t seem very different from what a bulky Trick Room Calyrex-Ice set may have ran last generation, but as for what seems like this generation’s recurring pattern, Terastalizing makes all the difference this time. Tera Ground seems like it would be the best scheme fit here, but I eventually switched over to Tera Ice in an effort to improve my matchups against Kyogre-led rain teams and to get rid of my Dark and Ghost weaknesses. What I actually found was that Tera Ice Glacial Lance is one of the most spammable STABs I think I’ve ever seen, provided Trick Room is up and you can actually land the darn thing. Tera Ice takes +0- yes, +0, Glacial Lance from a 3HKO to a 2HKO on both Kyogre and Zacian-Crowned, and at +1, I’m pretty sure this 2HKOs the entire metagame barring opposing Terastalization reads from the opponent.
What makes this so difficult to deal with for so many teams I’m facing is that Calyrex-Ice isn’t the only Trick Room setter one can use, allowing for more consistency to fire off strong attacks over the course of a game:
Magearna @ Leftovers (Air Balloon could be fun)
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Fairy (realistically this could be changed)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Draining Kiss
- Aura Sphere
- Calm Mind
…wait a second, that’s the wrong Calyrex form. Besides, didn’t we ban that one?
Ah, that’s better. Existing in the shadow (pun intended) of its counterpart alongside suffering from the slight base power nerf to Glacial Lance as well as the removal of some of its better options (namely High Horsepower), it made sense to me that Day 1 impressions of the more balanced of the two Calyrex Formes wouldn’t be as enthusiastic as the stronger staples of the HOME metagame, especially with Zacian-Crowned and its Behemoth Blade being allowed back. In contrast to early impressions of Gen 9 Calyrex-Ice, however, I do believe this Pokémon has a legitimate niche on Trick Room teams, and a powerful one at that.
Trick Room caught my interest pretty early on in Gen 9 Ubers, as I initially projected the archetype to have a strong matchup against the hyper offense teams that stacked several speedy threats. While this projection is accurate, the pre-HOME Ubers metagame didn’t experiment with Trick Room very much due to a lack of viable setters in the tier alongside New Toy Syndrome prompting players to sway towards more consistent archetypes. At first, HOME’s reintroduction of not just Calyrex-Ice, but also Magearna, Cresselia, and more potential abusers like the relatively unexplored Ursaluna, Dialga, Dialga-Origin, and post-Calyrex-Shadow Annihilape seemed to provide a solution to this, but said strategies would rarely see the light of day with Calyrex-Shadow’s effect on offensive team building across the board. But finally, now that Calyrex-Shadow is banned from a metagame that could viably incorporate the Trick Room archetype again… well…
Calyrex-Ice @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Glacial Lance
- Zen Headbutt
- Stomping Tantrum
My early playtesting suggests that you can’t just lead with Calyrex-Ice, set up Trick Room turn 1, and go to town. Experienced players can and will know how to play against the Trick Room archetype, particularly as it becomes more developed. On paper this set I’ve been practicing with doesn’t seem very different from what a bulky Trick Room Calyrex-Ice set may have ran last generation, but as for what seems like this generation’s recurring pattern, Terastalizing makes all the difference this time. Tera Ground seems like it would be the best scheme fit here, but I eventually switched over to Tera Ice in an effort to improve my matchups against Kyogre-led rain teams and to get rid of my Dark and Ghost weaknesses. What I actually found was that Tera Ice Glacial Lance is one of the most spammable STABs I think I’ve ever seen, provided Trick Room is up and you can actually land the darn thing. Tera Ice takes +0- yes, +0, Glacial Lance from a 3HKO to a 2HKO on both Kyogre and Zacian-Crowned, and at +1, I’m pretty sure this 2HKOs the entire metagame barring opposing Terastalization reads from the opponent.
What makes this so difficult to deal with for so many teams I’m facing is that Calyrex-Ice isn’t the only Trick Room setter one can use, allowing for more consistency to fire off strong attacks over the course of a game:
Magearna @ Leftovers (Air Balloon could be fun)
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Fairy (realistically this could be changed)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Draining Kiss
- Aura Sphere
- Calm Mind
Is a Tera suspect on the table for Ubers?
Can iron bundle work in this meta, can imagine specs bundle in rain could be obnoxious to switch around but both of them feel kinda just like alright B rank mons in this meta now that the power level has caught up.
I think that baning tera only on uber mons is a good idea, just like dynamax was in the past....but in this case I believe that tera can be ok unlike dynamax (this thing was finally baned on every mon).
So....baning tera on this mons is worth:
Arceus formes.
Koraidon, Miraidon.
Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza.
Dialga, Palkia and Giratina forms.
Mewtwo, Calyrex-Ice, Zacian forms, Eternatus, Zamazenta Crowned.
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Gonna rapid-fire these because the council is either age 12 or age 112 so they cannot post in this thread.
It's been considered is all we can reveal at this exact moment. Generational mechanics that aren't as obviously broken as Dynamax was take a LOT to get banned or to even get approval to run a suspect, which is why no action has been taken thus far in Ubers, a tier which is historically conservative with its suspect tests.
I don't know what "both of them" refers to but Iron Bundle's niche of outspeeding exactly all the base 105s is not as important anymore; moreover, sun is more prevalent than ever because of Groudon's introduction alongside Koraidon's already established dominant run, so Iron Bundle's strongest move in Hydro Pump is gonna bounce off of something like a bulky Arceus if it's not super-effective. If I were to rank it, I'd personally put it somewhere in B- or B because of how hard it is to justify at this moment.
Besides the fact that Dynamax Clause was pretty unanimously considered a bandaid solution and something everyone involved regrets, if you were to look at the SS Ubers equivalent of this thread you would see that not even the playerbase at large wanted it by the end of DLC1; arbitrary Pokemon like Kyurem-W couldn't Dynamax but Kyurem-B and Excadrill could dominate with minimal setup, both in the sense of boosting and the sense of positioning in the metagame. Also, Dynamax wasn't banned on Ubers Pokemon, but rather on things that started the generation/DLC as Ubers. Do you really think that because Arceus, Koraidon/Miraidon wouldn't be able to Tera people wouldn't abuse in on something that stayed OU for 5 minutes? The answer is no, despite Terra being seen as more "balanced" than Dynamax ever was.
I'm just gonna come out and say it, whether Terra gets banned or not Miraidon has to go.
The fact of the matter is there is 0 safe switch ins to Miraidon right now especially the specs set and you have to sack something in order to get something in that may kill it.
It makes me feel like I have to run Fairy + Tera ground +Ground +Tera Fairy + Blissey, if I even wanna deal with this thing and even then I also have to guess right every time or I lose. This is also not even going into the the variety of other sets it can run such as Scarf, Calm mind and boots pivor to name a few. It's just gotta go.
The fact of the matter is there is 0 safe switch ins to Miraidon right now especially the specs set and you have to sack something in order to get something in that may kill it.
Some noteable calcs
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 470-556 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 337-397 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 373-439 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 262-309 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 372-438 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 373-439 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 387-456 (118.7 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 178-211 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 270-318 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 387-456 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quark Drive Iron Treads: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane in Electric Terrain: 336-396 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon in Electric Terrain: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Giratina-Origin in Electric Terrain: 209-246 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I can keep going but these are all the supposed switch into Miraidons specs set and unless you play absolutely perfectly with your switches or are Blissey you're losing a mon and have to hope that you revenge kill it. Which it will just switch out and then do it all over again, except this time your check to one of its moves are gone and it can freely spam that move as it wishes. Also Notable is this is all based of Miraidons stabs not even including it's coverage on top of that.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 470-556 (101.2 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 337-397 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 373-439 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 262-309 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 372-438 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 373-439 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 387-456 (118.7 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 178-211 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 270-318 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 387-456 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quark Drive Iron Treads: 151-178 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane in Electric Terrain: 336-396 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon in Electric Terrain: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Giratina-Origin in Electric Terrain: 209-246 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I can keep going but these are all the supposed switch into Miraidons specs set and unless you play absolutely perfectly with your switches or are Blissey you're losing a mon and have to hope that you revenge kill it. Which it will just switch out and then do it all over again, except this time your check to one of its moves are gone and it can freely spam that move as it wishes. Also Notable is this is all based of Miraidons stabs not even including it's coverage on top of that.
It makes me feel like I have to run Fairy + Tera ground +Ground +Tera Fairy + Blissey, if I even wanna deal with this thing and even then I also have to guess right every time or I lose. This is also not even going into the the variety of other sets it can run such as Scarf, Calm mind and boots pivor to name a few. It's just gotta go.
From what I have seen Miraidon, while good, does not feel like the same thing as Zacian-C (gen 8) and certainly not like Mega Rayquaza. It does have quite a few answers, it is not like mega rayquaza who two hit koes every mon in the game or Zacian who has one answer, and even quagsire could be dealt with. I feel like Ubers bans should only be mons or strategies that have no consistent counter-measure and are just too unfair or powerful. Having a centralized metagame I dont think is a bannable offense in ubers, I mean look at gen 8 it is more just if you are forced to otherwise shit mons but Ting-Lu is a pretty good answer that mainly loses to tera, I think tera imo seems like the one that is the more problematic, since without it there are a few walls that Miraidon can not break through that easily. I may be wrong but all I know is, if it's broken it is in a lesser level compared to Zacian and especially Mega-Rayquaza
Coming back here to voice my opinions on the Miraidon & Tera discussion. Terastalizing has been a hot topic ever since the onset of Scarlet & Violet because of how threatening many of the best offensive Pokémon in the game become with the mechanic in place. There’s a definite argument to be made that Terastalizing is the only thing pushing many of Scarlet & Violet’s strongest threats over the edge of healthy gameplay, but instead of beating a Calyrex-Shadow (that is to say, a dead horse), I want to take a look at Miraidon itself for a second.
At first glance, Miraidon shares a lot in common with Kyogre back in Generations 3 through 5. Here was a Pokémon reaching stupid levels of power off of its STABs and strong coverage options backed up by an excellent attacking stat and a revolutionary Ability. The similarities don’t end there, however. Almost like it was meant to be this way, both of these special attacking monsters have physically oriented counterparts that also just happen to both set up harsh sunlight for one reason or another. A coincidence? Maybe, but my point is that with both duos, each member of the duo helps keep the other one in check. This is especially true for Koraidon and Miraidon due to their shared Dragon typing.
As far as Miraidon’s metagame influence is concerned, I’m not yet convinced that the metagame has gotten to a point where tiering action is necessary. Is Miraidon powerful? Absolutely. This thing arguably hits even harder than Calyrex-Shadow does with Terastalization added on. But in spite of that, well constructed teams operated by smart Trainers have been able to weather Miraidon’s onslaught. As powerful as Miraidon is, it can be a bit predictable at times, and when teams have more leeway to experiment with counterplay options due to not being forced to account for Tera Calyrex-Shadow, your end result is what we’ve seen- a strong Pokémon that can run multiple sets, but lacks the versatility to break through the Ubers landscape in the same way others have before. I personally would argue Koraidon is actually not only a better Pokémon in the current metagame, but is more versatile while not being as constraining in the power department. And if barely anyone is pushing for a Koraidon suspect, why should a Miraidon suspect take higher priority when the latter still has viable counterplay?
At first glance, Miraidon shares a lot in common with Kyogre back in Generations 3 through 5. Here was a Pokémon reaching stupid levels of power off of its STABs and strong coverage options backed up by an excellent attacking stat and a revolutionary Ability. The similarities don’t end there, however. Almost like it was meant to be this way, both of these special attacking monsters have physically oriented counterparts that also just happen to both set up harsh sunlight for one reason or another. A coincidence? Maybe, but my point is that with both duos, each member of the duo helps keep the other one in check. This is especially true for Koraidon and Miraidon due to their shared Dragon typing.
As far as Miraidon’s metagame influence is concerned, I’m not yet convinced that the metagame has gotten to a point where tiering action is necessary. Is Miraidon powerful? Absolutely. This thing arguably hits even harder than Calyrex-Shadow does with Terastalization added on. But in spite of that, well constructed teams operated by smart Trainers have been able to weather Miraidon’s onslaught. As powerful as Miraidon is, it can be a bit predictable at times, and when teams have more leeway to experiment with counterplay options due to not being forced to account for Tera Calyrex-Shadow, your end result is what we’ve seen- a strong Pokémon that can run multiple sets, but lacks the versatility to break through the Ubers landscape in the same way others have before. I personally would argue Koraidon is actually not only a better Pokémon in the current metagame, but is more versatile while not being as constraining in the power department. And if barely anyone is pushing for a Koraidon suspect, why should a Miraidon suspect take higher priority when the latter still has viable counterplay?
You say that both members of the Duos keep each other in check like in Gen 3 but if argue that both members accentuate the others problems more. Unlike the gen 3 legends. You can use sun and electric terrain together and with one being special while the other physical they make an amazing duo and help weaken each others checks greatly.
You can make the argument that Koraidon is better than Miraidon (I disagree) but you can. However, I believe Miraidon is far more unhealthy as there is a plethora of more physical walls and counterplay to Koraidon compared to Miraidon.
Physically defensive Skeledirge for once is a completely blanks Koraidon and has reliable recovery unlike anything that Miraidon has.
Defensive Groudon can take a couple hits and wisp Koraidon (it does even better with Miraidon banned and it not having to run max SPD).
Kyogre can come in and with rain shut down most Koraidon sets, since it relies on Orichalcum boost/Tera fire to break through so many checks on its standard sets.
Also the level of Physical walls in ubers are so much easier to play with especially with wisp being one of, if not the most common move thrown around in ubers.
Also Electric/Dragon being a better Stab combo in ubers vs Fighting Dragon
And finally its own terrain boosting its own Stab vs having to use a Tera to abuse its own weather/terrain ability to its fullest.
Koraidon may fit on more teams and provide better team support (especially with Flutter main/photosynthesis mons). However I believe Miraidon is more broken. More similar to something like Gen 8 Kyurem, where Lando-T was the best mon in the tier. However Kyurem despite being A-rank at the time of its ban was banned anyways because it was unhealthy for the meta
In the time that's passed since I wrote my original post, I've realized that pretty much all of what you're saying is a good point. I'm willing to admit that my metagame knowledge of this tier isn't quite as high as I would like for it to be, and the list of physical walls that you mentioned feels like a great example of that. The problem with these Pokémon is that, as great of physical walls as they might be, come with the unfortunate caveat of not being able to handle Miraidon effectively. This, in turn makes it so Miraidon's metagame presense indirectly makes physical attackers who struggle against the Pokémon Miraidon is strong against better than they might otherwise be.
Exactly hence why though Koraidon seems better at first. It's because of the stranglehold on the metagame that Miraidon has and the fact that you basically have to run multiple special walls on every team over physical walls, that Koraidon is able to break through so many teams that are lacking the physical walls that counter it.
Miraidon is definitely much more unhealthy. It actually warps the meta and has made Ting Lu mandatory for most teams. And Miraidon can still break past ting Lu with Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam.
252+ SpA Hadron Engine Tera Fairy Miraidon Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 246-290 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. If there are no hazards, Miraidon can even setup on Ting Lu with Agility and Calm Mind.
All of this without any boost or life orb. Just tera and that's it.
I do find Miraidon's presence pretty restrictive. Kinda reminds me of Dracovish in Gen 8 OU.
252+ SpA Hadron Engine Tera Fairy Miraidon Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 246-290 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. If there are no hazards, Miraidon can even setup on Ting Lu with Agility and Calm Mind.
All of this without any boost or life orb. Just tera and that's it.
I do find Miraidon's presence pretty restrictive. Kinda reminds me of Dracovish in Gen 8 OU.
Miraidon is definitely a centralizing threat, but it doesn't just completely tear through teams like actually broken mons. It needs draco meteor to break through any moderately bulky Arceus variant, which gimps it and gives up offensive momentum. That's particularly important in a metagame with dragon/sword dance Arceus forms and other mons which are easily capable of reverse sweeps. Choice items are mediocre on Miraidon since its stabs are walled by already strong defensive types in ground and fairy, although I'd expect scarf to perform well as a wincon.
Agility + calm mind can be threatening, but a single turn of set-up isn't going to be enough to sweep any decent intact team, and it can't run both alongside its stabs and coverage moves like dazzling gleam. Agility isn't enough on its own to break through semi-bulky mons in one hit and without a speed boost it easily gets revenge killed by scarfers like Koraidon or protosynthesis/quark drive users like Flutter Mane. It also lacks the bulk shrug off mid-sized hits like Ting-Lu's earthquake, or exploit resisted choice-locked moves, so set-up opportunities aren't easy to come by unless it's against something really passive like Blissey.
Tera seems to let any sweeper break through any defensive mon, but it also increases potential counterplay since a well-timed tera-fairy or tera-ground can instantly neutralize Miraidon. Using tera early also gives the enemy the upper hand since they can pull off a similarly busted maneuver later in the match to offset the advantage without needing to worry about your tera. Using tera late to exploit weaknesses you've created earlier in the match is just called playing intelligently and can be done with any decent sweeper. It also makes team building around Miraidon easier since you can slot in a tera-ground/fairy Giratina, Eternatus, or Kyogre alongside more dedicated counterplay to do better against Miraidon without substantially weakening your team for other matchups. Those three (and others) have enough bulk to do decently against a non-boosted Miraidon without speccing into spdf.
For what it's worth, I'd say tera-dragon is the best since it can blow open walls without sacrificing a move-slot for coverage. Fairy is a better defensive typing overall but it doesn't provide the same wall breaking potential and is still vulnerable to some scarfers like Kyogre and Koraidon.
252+ Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 324-382 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus: 242-285 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 360-426 (105.5 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 422-500 (123.7 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 378-446 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 236-278 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon in Sun: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon in Rain: 181-213 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 471-556 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (hurts my overall point but I'd be dishonest not to include this)
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fairy Miraidon in Rain: 363-427 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Miraidon in Sun: 405-477 (118.7 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This meta seems to be geared towards very high powered offense, and Miraidon is one of the best at doing it. It's a strong wallbreaker that can sweep late game if played well, but it is not a cut above other Ubers and banning it would just cause the meta to centralize around Koraidon, Arceus, Zacian, Kyogre, etc. in a very similar manner since the factors which make strong offensive mons dominant will still be present. That's basically what's been happening in OU, which is fine for that tier, but an Ubers tier without busted mons and significant centralization around the top threats wouldn't be Ubers.
Agility + calm mind can be threatening, but a single turn of set-up isn't going to be enough to sweep any decent intact team, and it can't run both alongside its stabs and coverage moves like dazzling gleam. Agility isn't enough on its own to break through semi-bulky mons in one hit and without a speed boost it easily gets revenge killed by scarfers like Koraidon or protosynthesis/quark drive users like Flutter Mane. It also lacks the bulk shrug off mid-sized hits like Ting-Lu's earthquake, or exploit resisted choice-locked moves, so set-up opportunities aren't easy to come by unless it's against something really passive like Blissey.
Tera seems to let any sweeper break through any defensive mon, but it also increases potential counterplay since a well-timed tera-fairy or tera-ground can instantly neutralize Miraidon. Using tera early also gives the enemy the upper hand since they can pull off a similarly busted maneuver later in the match to offset the advantage without needing to worry about your tera. Using tera late to exploit weaknesses you've created earlier in the match is just called playing intelligently and can be done with any decent sweeper. It also makes team building around Miraidon easier since you can slot in a tera-ground/fairy Giratina, Eternatus, or Kyogre alongside more dedicated counterplay to do better against Miraidon without substantially weakening your team for other matchups. Those three (and others) have enough bulk to do decently against a non-boosted Miraidon without speccing into spdf.
For what it's worth, I'd say tera-dragon is the best since it can blow open walls without sacrificing a move-slot for coverage. Fairy is a better defensive typing overall but it doesn't provide the same wall breaking potential and is still vulnerable to some scarfers like Kyogre and Koraidon.
252+ Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 324-382 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus: 242-285 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 360-426 (105.5 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 422-500 (123.7 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 380-448 (111.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon: 378-446 (110.8 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon: 236-278 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Miraidon in Sun: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Miraidon in Rain: 181-213 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 471-556 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (hurts my overall point but I'd be dishonest not to include this)
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fairy Miraidon in Rain: 363-427 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Miraidon in Sun: 405-477 (118.7 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This meta seems to be geared towards very high powered offense, and Miraidon is one of the best at doing it. It's a strong wallbreaker that can sweep late game if played well, but it is not a cut above other Ubers and banning it would just cause the meta to centralize around Koraidon, Arceus, Zacian, Kyogre, etc. in a very similar manner since the factors which make strong offensive mons dominant will still be present. That's basically what's been happening in OU, which is fine for that tier, but an Ubers tier without busted mons and significant centralization around the top threats wouldn't be Ubers.
In light of the recent shifts in the metagame, the trajectory of strategic dynamics has been recalibrated. With the evanescence of Aromatherapy from Calyrex and the solitary residence of Heal Bell upon Blissey, the intricate landscape of battles is poised to undergo a transmutation. This recalibration has elicited inquiries into the potential resurgence of status effects as pivotal determinants of confrontations.
Enterprises such as Miraidon are now projected to occupy a paramount niche in this multifaceted tapestry. Observations have unveiled intriguing dimensions surrounding the utilization of Tera Blast as a potent instrument of manipulation. Noteworthy is the perspective that beyond the fulcrum of Tera Blast lies a sphere of limited strategic permutations. In particular, the vulnerabilities inherent in the foundation of Calyrex-Shadow, encapsulated within the frailty of 4x susceptibilities, portend a conundrum of great significance.
Engaging in a deconstruction of this paradigm, the proposition of augmenting Calyrex-Shadow's efficacy in specified engagements through the integration of Tera Normal garners attention. However, an astute parsing of resources earmarked for Terastalizing pursuits is imperative, conducted with a meticulous scrutiny of their broader strategic utility.
The exchange of ideas, as witnessed through the discourse initiated by individuals such as EdwardMatthew, Sheerluck Holmes, and others, is a microcosm of the synthesis between human ingenuity and computational insights. The delicate balance between data-driven analysis and subjective experience is an intriguing crucible within which emergent strategies gestate.
In the grand symphony of strategic intricacies, the melody of Miraidon's ascendancy harmonizes with the counterpoints of calculated responses, each post a note contributing to the evolving opus of competitive Pokémon discourse.
-PokeGPT Arceus
On a more serious point, I think the entire point of AG existing is to ban things like Miraidon. It's head and shoulders above the power level of the other top tiers like Ogre and Zacian. The whole point of the tier is currently wear down one another's Miraidon checks until one of them sweeps. This seems like a no brainer to me, it makes the entire tier worse and hyper constricted. Does it autowin on preview? No, but that shouldn't be the threshold here.
Enterprises such as Miraidon are now projected to occupy a paramount niche in this multifaceted tapestry. Observations have unveiled intriguing dimensions surrounding the utilization of Tera Blast as a potent instrument of manipulation. Noteworthy is the perspective that beyond the fulcrum of Tera Blast lies a sphere of limited strategic permutations. In particular, the vulnerabilities inherent in the foundation of Calyrex-Shadow, encapsulated within the frailty of 4x susceptibilities, portend a conundrum of great significance.
Engaging in a deconstruction of this paradigm, the proposition of augmenting Calyrex-Shadow's efficacy in specified engagements through the integration of Tera Normal garners attention. However, an astute parsing of resources earmarked for Terastalizing pursuits is imperative, conducted with a meticulous scrutiny of their broader strategic utility.
The exchange of ideas, as witnessed through the discourse initiated by individuals such as EdwardMatthew, Sheerluck Holmes, and others, is a microcosm of the synthesis between human ingenuity and computational insights. The delicate balance between data-driven analysis and subjective experience is an intriguing crucible within which emergent strategies gestate.
In the grand symphony of strategic intricacies, the melody of Miraidon's ascendancy harmonizes with the counterpoints of calculated responses, each post a note contributing to the evolving opus of competitive Pokémon discourse.
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On a more serious point, I think the entire point of AG existing is to ban things like Miraidon. It's head and shoulders above the power level of the other top tiers like Ogre and Zacian. The whole point of the tier is currently wear down one another's Miraidon checks until one of them sweeps. This seems like a no brainer to me, it makes the entire tier worse and hyper constricted. Does it autowin on preview? No, but that shouldn't be the threshold here.
I think a miradon suspect is probably warranted, as all of its checks are shaky at best, and miradon literally has no true counters
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