Resource Ubers Old Gens Hub

Noitu being a bit classical is something I can agree with. For example, he's one of the few to still frequently use Lati leads. Being inexperienced, however, is something I very strongly disagree with. We are actually quite lucky to get to see him playing in Ubers. Furthermore, I think the most impressive thing about him as a player is just how experience he is with playing RS Ubers. It's harder to tell from replays but Noitu plays his games VERY fast. I don't think I've ever seen the timer tick for him, he knows exactly what he wants to do in nearly every situation because he has played those situations so many times before.

He is definitely unorthodox and I'd wager that he'd rather show off a dark horse than choose his teams based on what he thinks his opponent is likely to bring. There's definitely building choices of his that I disagree with since my style is a lot more rigid and reactive. I feel like he should invest more into a dedicated Lati check on his Wobbuffet teams since oftentimes Wobbuffet is using its health to take down an enemy Snorlax. I think his game vs Lasen is a good example of why I feel that way. He obviously drew the short straw when it came to the Kyogre mirror but I don't think the odds especially favored him (although his Surfs seemed to have more investment). I'm also not sure how impactful it would have been for him to win that exchange seeing as there was a (CB?) Dugtrio and Thunder Latios on Lasen's side still. On the other hand, Noitu only really had Mewtwo and (kinda?) TTar that had a good 1v1 mu vs Thunder Latios on a team with CB Ho-Oh and a Kyogre.

Ismakhil is definitely a player I underrated going into this tournament. (especially when I was upset with seeing neither Staxi nor Dream drafted for this tournament) His first game of the tournament vs Bushtush was an awkward one. I feel like Bushtush showed himself the more generally experienced player with multiple strong reads early in the game. That was up until Isma's mono Latias came into play where I assume Bushtush's lack of experience with ADV Ubers specifically hurt him. He made the choice to stay in with Blissey so he could bait the Latias into giving his Deo-A a free switch instead of using his CM Jirachi to check it. That strategy would have been a great one if he was CB Deo instead of Spell Tag since the later isn't strong enough to OHKO the heavily Defense invested mono Latias that is standard right now in the meta. Isma's game the following week versus Mr.378 was an improvement to me. His first turn, frankly, was amateur as I believe the lead meta right now is that Mewtwo has to respect Kyogre unless it's okay with fainting in exchange for substantial chip on Kyogre so that a teammate can be in a better position. After that, however, Ismakhil showed he was just as capable as Mr.378 in making reads and there were a lot of cool back and forths between the two. The game ended up being decided by luck in Ismakhil's favor but he deserves credit for successfully identifying that route as his best chance at victory. The highlight of the tournament for Ismakhil (so far) and just one of the most memorable games in the tournament overall was his match vs Jackie in week 3. Honestly, there's just too many good things to say about it so if you haven't (re)watched it yet then I strongly suggest you do. You know you played well when your opponent responds to their loss with a baseless accusation of ghosting. Of course, week 4 he lost to Inspirited's Dodrio but I see that as more props to Inspirited than slops for Ismakhil.
 

Holy Ghost

byulharang
is a Tiering Contributor
While this is active because of adv can we get new samples please lmfao its been months the teams I submitted are far better for a newer player I see people bring these in roomtours and they usually always do bad or just get outprepped by more modern teams and I dont think these are good to represent the current state of adv personally. I might edit this with a team or two if wanted
-edit-
Basically everyone in the adv ubers channel in the uberscord agreed with me in adding one of these, I forget which it was because it was months ago so I'll just post both because im 99% sure it was one of these(most likely the m2 one iirc), add it if you want but with adv cup coming soon it would be nice to have some good samples for people wanting to get into the tier easier. I picked up adv ubers in like 2018~ or whenever I played it in circuit poffs so im not the oldest in the tier but im not the newest either so just wanted to share my opinions on this rq cus im bored and I talk to a lot of the players so I want to echo some stuff too, since no one else posted. I think we could potentially scrap all these samples with completely different teams or a revamped version of them, mainly a revamped minority rain if anything because his archetype is used a lot still. I think regis can be good yeah but it doesn't represent the metagame currently. The dual lati looks like it can really struggle with pressuring Heracross which seems to be pretty meta now, I think Heracross should be in a sample maybe because of the meta trend. I think Hacks sun team should be replaced with an Exiline sunstall even though they may not be the most beginner friendly but sunstall is regarded as one of the best if not the best type of team in adv ubers so having it as a sample regardless is up to whoever is in charge w this. Having a boomspam team would also be good to add same with a good rain offense, I provided both below.
https://pokepast.es/0a7e07842be2f9b1
https://pokepast.es/d658520979ef3c41
 
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The CB Lugia team can definitely go. The Regirock one is still good but not representative of what current Sun Stalls typically look like. Minority’s Rain is still relevant but I’d ask him if he wants to updates sets. The weatherless is fine but not really the standard sorta build I’d want to stick in samples for new players. (There’s nothing wrong with it staying there)

I think you definitely want a more typical Sun Stall. Something with lead Mewtwo is important to have because of its impact on the lead meta. By the same reasoning, a lead Kyogre team would be great, too. Ideally, magsy’s boomspam team would be added as well but idk the policy on that.

Edit: HG is right about the weatherless, it’s not a good sample.
 
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Fc

Resident Ubers Zoomer
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
The years first type C tour for it just ended, so here's the GSC usage stats.
GSC Ubers

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Snorlax            |  254 |  96.95% |  49.61% |
| 2    | Mewtwo             |  227 |  86.64% |  49.56% |
| 3    | Mew                |  207 |  79.01% |  48.31% |
| 4    | Zapdos             |  140 |  53.44% |  51.79% |
| 5    | Forretress         |  133 |  50.76% |  55.26% |
| 6    | Steelix            |   90 |  34.35% |  51.67% |
| 7    | Cloyster           |   83 |  31.68% |  47.59% |
| 8    | Lugia              |   80 |  30.53% |  43.12% |
| 9    | Tyranitar          |   56 |  21.37% |  44.64% |
| 10   | Celebi             |   50 |  19.08% |  40.00% |
| 11   | Raikou             |   48 |  18.32% |  51.04% |
| 12   | Golem              |   43 |  16.41% |  53.49% |
| 13   | Jolteon            |   23 |   8.78% |  39.13% |
| 14   | Ho-Oh              |   20 |   7.63% |  35.00% |
| 15   | Skarmory           |   11 |   4.20% |  54.55% |
| 15   | Umbreon            |   11 |   4.20% |  36.36% |
| 17   | Misdreavus         |   10 |   3.82% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Rhydon             |   10 |   3.82% |  30.00% |
| 19   | Exeggutor          |    7 |   2.67% |  85.71% |
| 20   | Gengar             |    5 |   1.91% |  40.00% |
| 21   | Blissey            |    4 |   1.53% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Heracross          |    4 |   1.53% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Marowak            |    3 |   1.15% |  33.33% |
| 23   | Dragonite          |    3 |   1.15% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Vaporeon           |    2 |   0.76% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Clefable           |    2 |   0.76% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Suicune            |    1 |   0.38% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Muk                |    1 |   0.38% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from I!A$MF$A%K$E%E.
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GSC is arguably the least developed gen of Ubers in terms of its meta due to how little its played and represented as well as it having more mons than RBY which is also not very big in tours. I think these type C tours will be a huge help in getting people to actually play the meta, and letting things get figured out a lot more. I'm not a major player of the gen so I don't have a ton of comments outside of what seems fairly obvious, but no surprise lax topping the usage charts easily with how good it is, most likely not hitting 100 or right below it just because people didn't reveal their Snorlax in a few games. Exeggutor having a really high win rate seems also interesting, it's a cool sleeper with boom so it has its good traits, just isn't used a whole lot but clearly can do well. Jolteon didn't seem to have the best of tours, with a sub 40% winrate while being a top 13 mon, Growth pass probably wasn't as successful as people hoped sometimes, but it also has a lot less usage than Golem at #12 so there's less info to go off.

Just wanted to drop these here and see how these stats actually played out because it's cool to see on a larger scale how people are taking this meta, and although I'm not the biggest fan personally just because of the nature of the gen it's still an interesting thing to play that I'll definitely keep joining as long as there's tours for it.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Yes sample teams are a constant problem for this thread. I could submit a ton of generic teams for samples of basically every gen I built, as I feel basically all of them are out of date imo. There is a lot of things I want to post and contribute to old gens hub but I haven't really got round to doing it yet but I promise I will. HG's teams are good enough, Irys sun stall with CB Deo-A would be a good adv sample imo it's very consistent and is what we are looking for I feel in ADV so ill prolly try to get in contact with him to see if he wants to contribute it just yet or not.

Fc I am once again thanking you for usage stats, and those look great, I'll edit in my thoughts for gsc later today, I bloody haven't had breakfast yet
 

SparksBlade

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
1617439516929.png

Cool GSC stats, Ho-Oh and Raikou slightly lower than I would've expected. Jolteon got decent usage - is that all GrowthPass or is some of it just because of its speed? Really excited by the popularity of GSC last couple years (s/o Earthworm) and looking forward to seeing it in maybe this UPL or the next one.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Just gonna make a separate post for my thoughts on the recent GSC tour instead.

Initially have to agree with Sparks, The Ho-Oh Usage is shockingly low for a full tour, like really low. Considering how Good Ho-Oh can actually be. Toxic + whirlwind Ho-Oh on Stall is surprisingly really good from my experience, one example of a stall is usually with Ho-Oh + Forre + Barrier Mewtwo (the only good SD mew check on fat) - Unfortunately I no longer have a team on hand or I would post it here. Usual curse sets can be effective, something cheesy ive seen win games is Miracleberry + Ancient Power, its probably trivial what this aims to do. I'm just really at shock at the Ho-Oh usage, I feel like its due to the fact that example teams in GSC resources don't accommodate a Ho-Oh and I feel there should be at least one Ho-Oh team, whenever I get my GSC fever i'll contribute some stuffs.

Raikou usage being lower than expected isn't a surprise really, when you have strong combos like Growth Jolteon quick pass to Offensive Mewtwo, which makes a fantastic cleaner core, or to break more stubborn checks. Jolteon itself isn't a bad electric per-say but has its drawbacks, but Growth + Mewtwo is literally the reason why it crops up more than GSC OU. Jolteon also outspeeds some crucial mons and speed ties M2 (could be key in some scenarios). Zapdos is by far the superior electric defensively and fits more of a variety of builds.

Exeggutor having a really high win rate seems also interesting, it's a cool sleeper with boom so it has its good traits, just isn't used a whole lot but clearly can do well
Exeggutor only really fits what in the GSC realm you'd consider offense, and not really on your general GSC Ubers team, which is why it doesn't get much usage. it's usually a lead but can also work outside of the lead role, Does exactly what you said, gets off sleep and trades a mon with boom - Ideally you want to trade for mons that SD Mew / Snorlax have trouble breaking, in SD Mew's case this is very little. It has fantastic attributes a GSC offense wants, even in Ubers.

SD Mew is the most threatening Pokemon to face and I saw a lot of games of players just losing to it, I think people underestimated what it is really capable of, especially when its main checks are weakened or dealt with, some teams didn't really have strong checks to it, and honestly sometimes it is hard to have a solid check to SD Mew due to how its Moveset can vary with with the usual SD + Boom catching ppl off guard or the SD Slidequake combo which shakes up a lot of teams.

I don't really have much to add, I'm just sad about the lack of Ho-Oh's and the remainder of the stats are reflective of how GSC (currently) is imo. I feel GSC Ubers still has a lot to explore, unfortunately there has been a general lack of tours in the past for GSC Ubers and I do have to agree these Type-C tours have been a great addition to the tournaments circuit to re-establish GSC back into Ubers tournaments and I am hoping to see these develop further and I am looking forward to perhaps one day seeing GSC Ubers back in Ubers team tournaments.
 
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Hey guys! After seeing these posts I was inspired to make a post in the official GSC Ubers Discussion Thread. I was planning on making it after GSCPL but was pretty tilted after my finals game lol and never came around to it. Instead of just reposting here, I'll just link it if thats ok.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-ubers-discussion.3652838/post-8807386
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-ubers-discussion.3652838/post-8807387

Hope you guys enjoy the read, its great to see some discussion in here and hope to see more people contribute. Really think GSC Ubers would be a great addition to this years UPL. :)
 
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For ADV samples;

The Mewtwo team HG linked has issues with Heracross so I'm not super keen on it being a sample personally. The Deo-A team is solid, though, and I think is worth adding to rep Kyogre lead teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-546853
I'd ask exiline for his team from this game to be added to samples. Otherwise, I can provide my own version. (although I'm sure just about everybody else has the same structure)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-548931
I like ismakhil's sunstall here (last is Blissey) if he's willing to share it for the sake of samples. Although there's so many variants you can add any of them really.

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Wave
- Swords Dance
Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Thunder Wave
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 148 Atk / 144 Def / 204 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct
- Curse
- Protect
Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Claw
- Calm Mind
- Refresh
- Recover
Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Shadow Ball
- Extreme Speed
- Hidden Power [Ground]

This is from the zf dump. Having a typical gdon, hera, magneton build would be great for samples, imo, since hera is the big thing atm. Some sets might need to be changed/updated. (or again, use your own version. these are all teams that everybody has p much)

If it's possible to add magsy's boomspam, that'd be good for samples. Not sharing banned users' teams only penalizes the new players that don't already know them. Of course, I don't even know if his team is public so maybe it's best to just stick somebody else's take on it regardless.
 
my apologies to interrupt the adv ubers discussion!

with my short lived excitement regarding the usm ubers cup coming to an end i thought i could share an idea i adopted from gen8 and tried to implement it to gen7. i am sure this idea would have been explored by the next team tournament (which is Ubers Premier League) and i am looking forward to see if it gets any attraction in the future.

as we know gothitelle got banned with the shadow tag ban in sword and shield. in my opinion double fairy with gothitelle was the most dangerous playstyle during zacian-C and shadow tag meta. i didn't play zacian-H and shadow tag meta but i would have used the same double fairy and shadow tag core if i kept playing. as we also know, gothitelle was able to focus on trapping the most dangerous fairy check in the game being (physically) defensive dusk-mane-necrozma.

so what if we use the same gothitelle to trap dusk-mane-necrozma in usm ubers? that is what i exactly did and in my game to actually test it out it worked out perfectly. it would have been far easier than it looked if i had my rocks up (or his pdon wasn't able to live two hits which i honestly was not expecting with a defensive dusk-mane-necrozma). click this to watch the game yourself.

because dusk-mane-necrozma has the pdon effect of making lot of other pokemon bad or awful, trapping it and making it and making it useless would open so many doors. thus here is a visual standpoint of my ideas trying to abuse removing dusk-mane-necrozma with gothitelle and a pokepaste of the ideas and teams i tried to make. click this for the pokepaste.



i very well know there are flaws just like how to deal with z-move dusk-mane-necrozma and if it ends up being faster than 200/220 or any fast gothitelle AND being still able to trap support arceus. however, i was looking forward trying out this concept and in the one game i played with the match up i was looking to get it ended up working as perfectly as in my mind and as it did in generation 8. with the double fairy core for example it is rather easy to go through dusk-mane-necrozma + pdon teams since gothitelle pp stalls sunsteel strike from dusk-mane and one of the other fairy weakness pdon for the other fairy to win the game.

tl;dr gothitelle trapping dusk-mane-necrozma just like it did in gen8 is worth exploring (or i think at least) and running the good old spedef dusk-mane-necrozma to check the fairy types like xerneas should (and i think will be in the future) very punishable.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Yes, SS gothitelle set is also good in USM Ubers and I also considered too in builds, hell I even used the set on a revised Gothitelle build I had of Goth / cm ground / Rocks Pdon / Mence / Necro-Dm / GeoXern

If you know me well enough, I actually dislike support Necro DM in USM Ubers I don't think it's a great set and if I use Spdef I always use SD never rocks, so.

NASCAR Gothitelle is obviously a amazing Trapper against fat Necrozma-DM, I feel like Adamant TR might actually be too strong for it to trap however

The problem I have with choosing Goth in USM is how much these builds end up struggling against specific offensive threats mainly Mgar and Zygarde. I feel like Mgar is by far the superior trapper in USM anyway due to how flexible it can be. Gothitelle however does open a lot of avenues for certain niche options to win condition. Especially if your opponent is a defensive Dusk mane spammer.

My traditional use of Goth has been with like Waves DD Zygarde to basically autowin if you catch the support Arc, run it out of ice beams and don't get unlucky.

Thank you for sharing these thoughts and I'm glad we came to similar conclusions about Goth in USM and how the future of the Mon will be played.
 

AM

GMT-4
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Goth is good paired with some of the mentions from Cynara/Pohjis above and Marshadow, which I know ckw is fond of in terms of concept Goth/Marsh just with talks from him and in the most recent most wanted. They cover both of the playstyles spectrums for the most part assuming you have decent ways to handle Yveltal and other Marshadows, obviously easier said than done perfectly. Its probably not utilized as much as it could be because things like Yveltal, Marsh are very strong in the format. You need to put more effort in the teambuilder to account for both of these which then opens up a further discussion of how everything else can be covered from a practical standpoint.

Should be interesting to watch UPL to see what's explored.
 

bw understander

Banned deucer.
FEAR NOT, FOR THE UNDERSTANDER PROVIDES.

Gen4Uber
The Demon Palkia
:Palkia: @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spacial Rend
- Surf
- Substitute
- Protect

water dragon coverage is unresisted in dpp. palkia is strong at getting the substitutes, which makes for easy damage because no resist. pair with tspikes and the ch*p will stack up very quickly oh yes!of you must beat the other resting kyogre and tspikes. since rest kyogre and can win, but anyway this set will perform well. a true DEMON that will win u games before the battle begins!

:Clefable: @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Knock Off OR Encore
- Thunder Wave OR Encore OR Stealth Rocks
- Soft-Boiled

a blisy that does not care about the hazards. strong vs dialga. weaker vs other dragons. more powerful support options that make it beast in the Fat vs Fat match up. but it more of a liability vs the offenses, despite the hazard immune.

:Mewtwo: @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 72 Def / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Recover

much like the Demon Palkia. pressure substitute is very powerful. boltbeam coverage is strong. subs vs most steels and blisy that want to check it. fat enough to outlast the girainta-o draco+shadow sneak. like stalltwo but weak vs the recoverer checks like blisy or rest dialga. but stronger vs offenses and lefties checks like heatran or jirachi. likes the tspikes on tyranitar

Adv uber

slinger of (Ninjask) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

the schmeat (Kyogre) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpA / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

the schlong (Groudon) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Drought
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

huge ass hotdog (Wobbuffet) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 32 HP / 224 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Safeguard
- Mirror Coat
- Counter

big ol' bratwurst (Snorlax) @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 96 HP / 96 Atk / 64 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct
- Curse
- Protect

DICK (Heracross) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break
- Focus Punch

slinger of Is a very good partner for powerful sweep pokemon. of course he is the only choice scarf pokemon in the adv games.

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Roar
- Calm Mind
- Rest

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Spikes
- Roar
- Drill Peck

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled

Dusclops @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Pursuit
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Refresh
- Recover


here we have teh starmie team. only spinner to remove the spikes against any ghost. AND beats all spikers. neat. of course he is weak to Deoxys Attack like many balances with blisy.

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Refresh
- Recover

Wobbuffet @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Smeargle @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Mean Look
- Spikes
- Baton Pass

Rayquaza @ Choice Band
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Extreme Speed
- Rock Slide
- Brick Break

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 96 HP / 96 Atk / 64 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct
- Curse
- Protect

Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 204 HP / 80 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover

heh. here we have the smeargle trapper set. double normal and many psychics so you can instant lose to the Deoxys attack. but that is why you have the wobbuffet too. he traps the metagross. snorlax, and deoxys Attack for the broken mewtwo set. and if you trap the right pokemon with the smeargle, he is very dangerous too.

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Claw
- Thunder
- Refresh
- Recover

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

Gengar
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 188 Atk / 68 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunder
- Explosion
- Thief
- Hypnosis

Omastar
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thief
- Spikes

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 96 HP / 96 Atk / 64 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Self-Destruct
- Curse
- Protect

Deoxys-Attack @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Substitute


yes this team is very good at making the Kyogre sweep and also the deoxysattack sweep. By stealing blisy and snorlax and hooh leftovers and latias soul dew of course! do not fear the deoxys-attacj for you have the omaster. sun stall team with the deoxys aatack AND ho-oh is the most deadly. you must especially make sure to use the genger thief sleep explosion here. and the omaster spike for the genger means they cannot spin with the forretress.
 
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I wanted to know how various old gens were progressing when looking exclusively at Classic cups signups and finalists/winners. Here's the data, there are sure to be errors but whatever. I'll update this post with stuff from current Classic when R1s finish (or when I feel like it) and may add in stuff about sign ups within X timeframe since some cups had longer signups than others.

Classic I
Adv Cup I
Sign ups: 109, 1 Sub R1
Finalists: Hack, Evuelf, Tape
Winner: Hack

Dpp Cup I
Sign ups: 91, 2 Subs R1
Finalists: Hack, Steelskitty, Ishuckle
Winner: Hack

Bw Cup I
Sign ups: 103, 1 Sub R1
Finalists: Hack, Tape, Steelskitty
Winner: Tape

Classic II
Adv Cup II
Sign ups: 66, 2 Subs R1
Finalists: Pohjis, Soulwind
Winner: Soulwind

Dpp Cup II
Sign ups: 79, 2 Subs R1
Finalists: Pohjis, Chillshadow
Winner: Pohjis

Bw Cup II
Sign ups: 87, 8 Subs R1
Finalists: Pohjis, Evuelf, Mysterious M
Winner: Pohjis

Oras Cup I
Sign ups: 87, 9 Subs R1
Finalists: Aishia, Chill Shadow, Dominatio
Winner: Aishia

Classic III
Adv Cup III
Sign ups: 75
Finalists: Exiline, Pohjis
Winner: Pohjis

Dpp Cup III
Sign ups: 87, 4 Subs R1
Finalists: Pohjis, Squinn, Ackler
Winner: Squinn

Bw Cup III
Sign ups: 87, 3 Subs R1
Finalists: Chill Shadow, zf, Sitonai
Winner: Chill Shadow

Oras Cup II
Sign ups: 88, 8 Subs R1
Finalists: Thimo, Tape, Gunner
Winner: Thimo

Classic IV
Adv Cup IV
Sign ups: 72, 5 Subs R1
Finalists: Soulwind, l'habitat
Winner: Soulwind

Dpp Cup IV
Sign ups: 89, 1 Sub R1
Finalists: Byron, Lord Thorx, Soulwind
Winner: Byron

Bw Cup IV
Sign ups: 67, 8 Subs R1
Finalists: Kebabe, Sitonai
Winner: Kebabe

Oras Cup III
Sign ups: 67, 2 Subs R1
Finalists: Pohjis, Loving1096
Winner: Pohjis

Usm Cup I
Sign ups: 99, 2 Subs R1
Finalists: Byron, Pohjis, Purple Gatorade
Winner: Byron

Classic V
Adv Cup V
Sign ups: 94, 3 Subs R1

Dpp Cup V
Sign ups: 106, 5 Subs R1

Bw Cup V
Sign ups: 93, 1 Sub R1

Oras Cup IV
Sign ups: 90, 1 Sub R1

Usm Cup II
Sign ups: 129, 5 Subs R1
 
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Two posts where the combined majority of reactions are laughing simply does not show that everyone dislikes baton pass. Having oldgens where people can attempt smashpass and geopass keeps ubers creative; the strategies are not overpowered at all, they are simply annoying for some people to deal with. Banning baton pass in a gen where it is legal in OU would be a joke.
 

Staxi

Never won a tour.
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
So... is there any reason to keep BP legal in the old gens? Seems like everyone dislikes it, especially for Advance.
Because BP in those gens isn't as good as it could have been in SM or SS. So far, nobody used a baton pass team in ORAS in both the last MW and UPL. It has been used one time in BW and lost. One time as well for DPP and won even though I feel like Finch should have checked (t10) with taunt for either Thunder Wave or Roar coming from Dialga because he would have been in a bad situation otherwise. Finally it has been used 2 times in Most Wanted only by Heysup, in the first replay Silver Wind boosts saved Heysup from a guaranteed lose and has been relatively lucky in the second one during the Kyogre vs Latias 1v1. So nothing demonstrates that BP should be banned in any of those gens because it remains a rare and risky pick and isn't unhealthy because it is weak to common trends such as Roar/Whirlwind users such as Kyogre/Dialga/Skarmory, Dragon Tail users such as Pdon/Dialga/Giratina-O or almost any Taunt users.
 

Manaphy

POCARI SWEAT
is a Tiering Contributor
Two posts where the combined majority of reactions are laughing simply does not show that everyone dislikes baton pass. Having oldgens where people can attempt smashpass and geopass keeps ubers creative; the strategies are not overpowered at all, they are simply annoying for some people to deal with. Banning baton pass in a gen where it is legal in OU would be a joke.
Let me be clear that my post was not meant to be make an argument/start some official process. I don't claim to be an expert in ADV Ubers, in fact I am rather inexperienced in the meta. The purpose of my post was to spark some discussion which it's clearly done well :blobthumbsup:
I will say that I have ran into a couple of players who expressed interest in a ban so it's not coming out of nowhere.
 

Fc

Resident Ubers Zoomer
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
As someone who is one of those players expressing interest in a ban, I think it's more than justified to want something to be done with Baton Pass. I don't think that going with a 100% results based analysis is the way to get anything done, simply because there's a small sample size of people who actually want to use Baton Pass. It's a strategy that's boring to use and play against, is seen in a negative light by the community, takes little skill to pilot, and by definition in the tiering policy;

"Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it."

I don't think that this definition is any different no matter the gen you look at, but some gens are naturally better at dealing with this which is why I don't think every old gen should look at it immediately, but the ones that actually have issues with the move should. BW seems fine with all the phazing, hazards, and incredibly hard hitters with few baton pass users for a full chain, smash pass is really annoying but I don't know if it's anything more. I haven't ran into it in oras so I won't speak on that, but I think the big one that should be looked at is ADV (and maybe dpp).

ADV Baton Pass is a special issue, because there was previously a ban on Ingrain + Smeargle which was later reversed. I think the reversal decision did make sense tiering wise since it was never voted on, but it also gave Baton Pass a large boost, since before some things like WW Ho-Oh at least had a chance to do something while you could also slowly chip things down with strong leads to try and disrupt or pressure the chain. BP teams would still be good but they would have a few more flaws, and currently in ADV I think they fall under the definition of uncompetitive from the tiering policy perspective.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ubers-1324860671-l8zvj25fxh8vbskui7aqzmdm06gstiapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ubers-1214648329

These replays are me both using and getting destroyed by BP. On lead there's sometimes nothing you can do, as evident by the first replay where the Groudon even got 2 Ancient Power boosts but was just unable to do anything but get PP stalled because I had Ingrain. The second was me more inexperienced with the Mu, but the other major thing when seeing Ninjask is that you don't know what Mu you're facing. Ninjask quickpass exists and like the replays in posts above showed is a solid and tournament caliber strategy. If I try and SD with my Groudon like I wanted to predicting Protect then all of a sudden it reveals a full pass chain I've essentially lost no matter what I do to try. Baton Pass takes so much skill out of everyone's hands and has the same problems it does in the generations it's banned in. I think Baton Pass should just be removed from every tier that exists or at least nerfed to the point where full chains don't exist, but that's a whole site tiering argument that already happened and mime was the collateral of that, not Baton Pass, so for now all I can advocate for is the fact that it should be banned here.

I brought up DPP simply because Baton Pass is similarly stupid there, where you can just win games on preview by Mew passing into a breaker. There's a ton of tools to get yourself set up to the point needed and it can also just turn games into a Mu fish and tons of 50/50's, but I'm not sure on full pass chains there so I think it's just something to keep an eye on for now.

To better the ADV Ubers tier a lot, I think that either the Smeargle + Ingrain ban should be reinstated, or Baton Pass as a whole should be looked at. It has very niche use on Pokemon like Celebi and Umbreon without stat passing so I'm not sure which is the correct way to approach it, but I don't think it's healthy for the tier at all. I dislike having to have this debate at all since it feels like the same points over and over every time BP is brought up, and in the gens people are looking at mostly I think it still falls under the same uncompetitive category it has in recent times. I think the only reason Ubers is lenient with BP is because some things that are uncompetitive but not that good manage to stay in the tier, but I think Baton Pass is both uncompetitive and borderline broken in ADV and at least something should be done with it.

Edit: Seems my dpp take in particular wasn't super agreed upon which is why I only gave it a small mention, but just to reiterate what I mean with it, I'm against stat passing as a concept in general when it can be done well and it's something that can easily steal games. That's just how I see it and I think DPP is probably one of the easier old gens outside of adv to use it from my experience. Not saying it should be banned or even needs a test, but everything regarding stat passing and bp in all gens at least should have an eye on them imo, because BP has proven what it can do multiple times in different gens. The main focus of this argument should be adv, where I do still think at the very least the ingrain ban being re-added is a good call.
 
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For clarification, my intentions of my post were partly in jest to poke fun at a recent loss I had to Mean Look Umbreon, partly to put my chips down for a future "I told you so" since the opportunity presented itself, and partly to bait folks into engaging me in a discussion where I could advance my radical anti-BP agenda.

:)

so

As things currently stand, public games and conventional wisdom makes it clear that BP in Adv Ubers is rare, inconsistent, and overall weak. There's not really much to currently support arguments that BP is too strong for Ubers. As far as I know, Mean Look Pass Umbreon is the only BP related set that has been proven to be effective. (Yes, I was joking about it earlier but that was an inside joke shitpost) Even then, it's still quite rare and its strength varies on the matchup and moveset so, currently, there isn't enough data yet to suggest that it's problematic. As it stands, it is just an uncommon cheese strat for mostly defensive builds. My motivations are speculative and personal.

Adv Ubers in general is very underexplored and Baton Pass strategies even more so. Out of the anecdotes that I am familiar with, Holy Ghost has attempted the strategy in the past but quickly concluded it wasn't worthwhile and abandoned it. Magsy, on the other hand, has invested a lot of effort into innovating the strategy. I don't know how successful he was in doing so, albeit he did seem confident. However, he is both banned and inactive.

Adv Ubers has been steadily growing over the years and has recently had a boom in activity and development. Baton Pass is also a very much current issue in OU with a Mr. Mime ban being the most recent attempt to addressing it. My fear is that more attention will begin to be drawn to BP in this meta and the strategy has shown time and time again to be something that is easier to break than to beat.

I'm not going to dwell on the strength of BP in RS Ubers because, in my eyes, it is a moot point. Baton Pass in gens 3 and onwards is always either too strong and results in some sort of ban or nerf to discourage its use or so weak that it is irrelevant, anyways. Unlike RS OU, smaller more tame uses of BP are not remotely popular or essential to the overall metagame. This metagame doesn't even have common uses of dry passing to scout switches and/or avoid Pursuit trapping, like BW OU does. The only potential collateral from a full Baton Pass ban is Shedinja using it to avoid Pursuit from Metagross that don't creep it. I'd argue that that is not even a real loss; Shedinja use is very rare and mostly just matchup cheese that hinges on it defying conventional means of breaking defensive backbones.

I don't want to wait around for somebody to eventually break BP in this metagame, too. I don't want to risk losing players, in the mean time, because they happened to have a bad experience with BP and decided to invest their efforts in some other metagame instead. One of the main draws to Adv Ubers is how balanced and skill based it is (for Pokemon, lol). I recognize, though, that banning Baton Pass is not currently a popular opinion and that it is unlikely for such a thing to happen anytime soon. My only goal right now is to put the subject on the radar and to show my support.




Two posts where the combined majority of reactions are laughing simply does not show that everyone dislikes baton pass. Having oldgens where people can attempt smashpass and geopass keeps ubers creative; the strategies are not overpowered at all, they are simply annoying for some people to deal with. Banning baton pass in a gen where it is legal in OU would be a joke.
As of this post, 5 out 9 reacts to Flatemo's post are laughing emojis. Only 3 out of 11 are for mine. The combined total is 8 out 20 without accounting for repeat reactions. (obviously: lol, reacts. this is just to point out that the statement isn't even factual)

Smashpass was infamously unpopular back in the days when BW Ubers was current gen. I don't know the opinion on it for the current playerbase. Geopass only concerns gen 6 as Baton Pass is banned in gens 7 and 8.

OU has nothing to do with Ubers. The environments are completely different and our banlist does not interact with theirs.



FC made his post while I was writing this up. I was aware of his game with tape beforehand but I didn't know that noitu has worked on innovating the strategy.
 
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Hey! I'll only share my opinion on DPP as it is the only generation I'm experienced enough in, but I don't think BP is anywhere close to being an issue in it.

First of all, I want to point out that there are very few viable users of Baton Pass in DPP - it’s mostly limited to Ninjask, Mew, Scizor and Gliscor, and in the case of Ninjask and Mew (excluding lead Mew), they are almost always BP, which makes its use extremely predictable on the turn they are revealed. The entire structure of teams are usually easy to guess as well, a team going from Deo-S to Screens Mewtwo is very likely to go BP Mew in the next few turns, something that lets you play accordingly. Ninjask is even worse as you can’t prevent your opponent from settings hazards turn 1, then going to support Dialga, clicking Roar, and winning on the spot (I am still waiting to see a Mr. Mime team get any results).

BP teams in DPP are limited to a singular, very rigid structure; teams usually carry counterplay to BP without even considering the matchup in builder. Toxic Spikes are difficult to deny entirely, either requiring a lot of effort to keep them off, or having a receiver not weak to them. Weather abusers also mandate fast spreads (sometimes at the cost of boosting natures), or passing multiple boosts. Roar can be used on a variety of excellent mons, such as Groudon, Latias, or Dialga, without hindering their overall utility; this forces BP teams to scout for it with Taunt or make sure they can OHKO all these phazers. There are also a number of Choice Scarf + Trick users in the tier, like Darkrai (which outspeeds most recipients even after a boost) as well as Scarf Deo-S beating your own lead and then Taunting your BP/screens users. Mental Herb isn't an option to deal with Taunt users, either.

Quickpass teams - the ones using only a smaller core relying on Baton Pass - also face issues because of how DPP is centralized around a few but really powerful threats such as Kyogre, Darkrai and Latis. Using a combination of moves on a mon/an entire mon dedicated to exploit Baton Pass will require huge role compression on your other mons, forcing you to make concessions in other matchups.

I'll trust Staxi that this game is the only one that featured BP in the most recent tournaments:

One time as well for DPP and won even though I feel like Finch should have checked (t10) with taunt for either Thunder Wave or Roar coming from Dialga because he would have been in a bad situation otherwise.
Ham’s plays here are very debatable - the roll on Mewtwo revealed that Hydro Pump would 3HKO Mew behind Light Screen; pumping twice would prevent Mew from taunting, leading to a winnable situation. T-Waving an obviously Lum Mew was just losing a turn.

Throughout this post, I do not mean BP is an unviable playstyle, however, it doesn’t qualify as “uncompetitive” - both players’ plays will matter, something BP is usually criticized for in other generations. It doesn’t restrict building, as lots of common options give you solid counterplay to it. I personally think the tier is entirely fine in its current state; honestly I’m a little surprised this is brought up at all. It seems to me that this is in the spotlight mostly because of ADV - I’ve never seen someone mention Baton Pass in DPP as an issue before today.
 

Inspirited

Moving Ever Forward
is a Contributor Alumnus
My ADVPL games p1:
w3 vs Mr.378

Pregame: When I looked at 378's recently used teams all my mind was initially doing was finding ways to put a Salac Heracross through them. After deciding I wanted to make a play with Salac Cross I remembered 2 of the 3 teams he passed me also had Skarmory and began looking for plays I could make to make it less of a problem. This is how Metagross ended up frail with Thunderpunch and Deoxys ended up with Pursuit. I figured I could feign weakness to a potential physical Deo-A on his end to the point where a Pursuit would be a rather easy call to make whether it be physical or Petaya. Snorlax ended up walled by Gengar and this may have been an unneeded risk but my mind had already worked out what needed to be done against one should he bring it. The entire team was a calculated risk as I didn't have much room to work with if I did mess up somewhere and going all in on Swarm Megahorn wasn't an option directly after.

https://pokepast.es/f28b2fd8310cf48b
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ubers-548275
vs


Game: His lead gave me lots of information. It told me there was no Deo-A, to expect Metagross, to expect a ghost, and to expect rain offense. This MU is volatile and I need to play very precisely in order for my Metagross / Deoxys / Heracross antics to work especially if one of his mons is a Ray. So with this in mind I clicked an imprecise move on turn 2! I can afford to Hydro the Deoxys on turn 1 as the upside is pretty big if it does land, but turn 2 should always be twave if I miss t1. Now if I had preplanned ways of abusing Latios at 2/3rd health then maybe the Hydro wasn't the worst thing but I didn't. Snorlax ended up critting the Deoxys on entry anyways so my position isn't the worst thing in the world, though having an unparalyzed, full health Snorlax could have been nice. Snorlax taking the paralysis did get me thinking about the interaction with his ghost though as it could no longer be burned so if there was a Dusclops, Snorlax could now fight it pretty effectively.

Kyogre coming in on my Snorlax after the crit means I am forced into Latios with no exception. The next step is to find out what his assumed Snorlax is up to so I can designate my Metagross and Kyogre HP effectively. The Thunder damage tells me that he is running the most SpD investment I have ever seen him run which raises alarms for certain Amnelax spreads and Metagross needs to get involved immediately. The Snorlax rolls low on the Metagross but I choose to read into that as confirmation of amnelax with no attack invested. Metagross can now fight the ghost because of the para as well though the nature means Gengar still hurts. 378 choosing to Body Slam makes it so I can Earthquake the amnelax first in order to cover his assumed Metagross and give Deoxys the opportunity to power through its foil... then 378 reveals Earthquake on the Snorlax and shows it to be a (likely) Careful attacking Snorlax after all. Earthquake puts me a lil behind now as Mash meant I could get a bit more aggressive with Latios later which may save me if there is a Ray somewhere in his last 2 slots. I have to choose what his last slot is between a ghost or Ray now and use a Latios Recover turn to get Snorlax in so that I might begin stacking Curses in hopes of forcing his Metagross or his last to reveal themselves and (hopefully) earn the damage I need on Kyogre or Metagross to make Swarm Megahorn devastating or give Deoxys the outings and KOs it needs to make the endgame easy (if he leaves in Latios, I get to start breaking things with Heracross). This doesn't happen as my forced Hydro misses and he gets no risk KO on my Snorlax. Heracross needs to get involved now and I have to hope the last isn't Ray and is a ghost (hopefully clops) instead. Either way I am using Megahorn first purely to damage whatever it is back there and hope for a possible crit. I get a very strong turn for myself as he Thunders, misses the para, Megahorn hits and KOes and I get my Salac Berry that is hidden until his Metagross was revealed. I miraculously get to Swarm Horn Metagross and revenge-kill with Kyogre revealing my last move as Thunder and this prompts a last Mewtwo (lucky me) response from him. I figure I can get away with Twaving into a sub so I do as he strangely decides to blow up my Kyogre after taking a Calm Mind.

At this point, the game is over as Deoxys can easily clean up the mess Latios is about to make of his remaining 2 mons.

These take time so I will be doing them over multiple posts at irregular intervals. I thought all of my games were good enough to warrant this sort of thing and I hope you find them helpful. This game I can describe as me being lucky with team choice. The calculated risk payed off though not in the way I expected.
 
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