Resource Ubers Old Gens Hub

Although my earlier post made my position clear I want to clarify my thoughts in a less hasty manner. Lauriane has given a comprehensive post on baton pass in DPP so I will refrain from mentioning it. Banning things from Ubers is always contentious - MMII mentioned that people may stop playing Ubers if they have a bad experience with baton pass, but then again people may stop playing Ubers if more things get banned. As such, I feel like a solution can be reached which would be agreeable - but first I’ll explain why I feel baton pass does not deserve a ban.

In BW and ORAS, baton pass has the same function; GeoPass and SmashPass. These two strategies, whilst unpopular to people who face it, are in no way broken or uncompetitive - there exists a myriad of options for counterplay readily available on all competently built teams. Phasing, hazards, strong priority and taunt are all perfectly viable options of stopping these strategies. As a matter of fact, I would go so far to say that the worse part of these strategies is Smeargle using Spore, which is effectively an OHKO for a certain number of turns. Fortunately, teams are prepared for sleep due to the prevalence of Darkrai in both these tiers, and sleep talkers forcing Smeargle to run taunt prevents it from running other moves such as Ingrain. Long story short, SmashPass and GeoPass are not consistent strategies in Ubers and are easily dealt with by some of the most common counterplay to general setup anyway. They are not remotely uncompetitive, they merely attempt to get a cheap win against an unsuspecting opponent.

To move on to ADV, which appears to be the main point of contention, I would argue that ADV has the most reason to keep baton pass. Shedinja was mentioned above, and it could fit on stall teams as a pivot for Kyogre. There are some interesting strategies involving Umbreon passing Curse boosts to mons holding White Herb, or simply Mean Look passing; once again not a particularly popular strategy, but a creative one which requires skill to pull off successfully, especially given Umbreon does not have the stats to truly compete in Ubers. There are almost certainly many more examples where baton pass is an interesting and fun move to use without being remotely broken.

Baton pass is only really unpopular for one reason: fullpass chains. These teams are generally not that good in Ubers but they are teams that aim to win in the builder and follow a process that removes player skill in-game. The player piloting baton pass will have to make some choices based on their opponent’s actions, however these are designed to be minimal. Whilst these teams are not good at all, given you are using PU mons to compete with Ubers and are effectively starting the game at a huge disadvantage, I can understand why they are unpopular. They require one person’s skill to build and anyone can mindlessly copy the team and attempt to pilot it. As such, I feel a complex ban to get rid of fullpass is solution which will be most agreeable to everyone - it has been done in previous generations of OU and Ubers has a history of complex bans (STag + Sleep Move) hence I see no reason why a limit on the number of passers in a team, or a complex ban of smeargle + ingrain should not be imposed.

TLDR; complex ban baton pass to get rid of fullpass - I feel like baton pass is worth preserving and getting rid of the single worst element of it before it is solved in ADV should suffice.

As of this post, 5 out 9 reacts to Flatemo's post are laughing emojis. Only 3 out of 11 are for mine. The combined total is 8 out 20 without accounting for repeat reactions. (obviously: lol, reacts. this is just to point out that the statement isn't even factual)

Smashpass was infamously unpopular back in the days when BW Ubers was current gen. I don't know the opinion on it for the current playerbase. Geopass only concerns gen 6 as Baton Pass is banned in gens 7 and 8.

OU has nothing to do with Ubers. The environments are completely different and our banlist does not interact with theirs.
At the time I wrote that post there were 13 total reactions, 7 being laughing; I did check before I posted to make sure my statement was indeed factual because I’m not in the habit of making things up. Please refrain from insinuating otherwise. Its really not a relevant point - it was just meant to point out that the reactions to the posts had no evidence of “everyone disliking” baton pass.

I am aware that smashpass was unpopular, however it is not exactly a broken strategy; it is unreliable due to the myriad of counterplay which is readily available on most teams, but can be fun to use in less serious scenarios. The same applies to both SmashPass and GeoPass in ORAS.

I am fully aware that OU tiering has no impact on Ubers, however I would see it as silly that the tier with the fewest bans has in fact banned something not banned by a tier below it; I’m sure others would agree.
You can try some other things like Iron Defense Scizor or some other receiver like Magneton, but this is your best team with a full pass.
You need 3 speeds to get your team ahead of everything. The rest of your ninja health is just a fishing submarine. Screaming on a vaporeon is really important to winning any repression war. Roots are a low priority if you can get them early, then great, but otherwise you want to save your spore when you really need the “Fuck you, I win” option. This team doesn’t really have a lot of bad games. A tornado is annoying because you need it to smeargle and then you have to win 50/50. The rewards of risk, however, go in your favor, which makes it possible at all. Strange leaders, like the selection wrap snorlax, are hard to beat if you don’t avoid paralysis. There’s not much room for failure, as there are only three turns that your opponent can expect provided you play well. The password for these accounts is dontjustbaningrain because we are all monsunderstanders. Have fun in adv cup everyone!


Tournament Banned
Being able to think of esoteric strategies, edge cases and strategies of theoretical interest doesn't amount to any reason to justify a complex ban. I really don't think collateral is a remotely valid concern, since collateral does not harm the integrity of a competitive format unless it causes the competitive depth of that competitive format to fall below an acceptable standard... which is something that will never realistically be the case for pokemon, given that you can ban literally everything that's good in a specific format and what's left would still offer a worthwhile competitive experience. And of course, there's really nothing distinguishing the handful of legit uses for BP amidst its toxicity from other cases where an isolatable trait on a specific pokemon pushed it over into being banworthy.

Also OU's affinity for complex bans shouldn't be used as justification for anything- if a precedent is awful, you throw out the precedent rather than follow it for the sake of adhering to precedent. Not to mention that ubers formats don't have to give a shit about ou

Honestly it amazes me that people are still willing to contort themselves through all sorts of hoops to justify keeping BP, when the move has so consistently proven itself to be cancerous outside of GSC. I lost all patience for the move a long time ago


Moving Ever Forward
is a Contributor Alumnus
My ADVPL games p2:
w4 vs Ismakhil

Pregame: It was pretty easy to make a call on a team for Ismakhil. I had made several Magneton + Spikes teams that I never actually used but I figured this would be a good person to use one of them against. Then shortly after scouting what he had throughout the tour I had this not-so-bright idea:
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We continued this on one of either irc or discord but I do not have the time to look for those logs lol.

So after getting smashed repeatedly while using Tauros I came up with a play concept involving Dodrio using is small defensive utility to come in and BP to Kyogre or an Omastar to give the Omastar in particular the turns it needs to Thief and lay down Spikes while also having the bird to be incredibly obnoxious to sun balances and offenses. I discovered the annoying limitation of not being able to run BP and Quick Attack on the same set though which really made the bird's viability drop in my mind. It's still better than Tauros though. So basically the reason why this team happened is because of an idea Fireburn had. Thank you, Fireburn

I saw a team with zero normal resists or ways of surviving long enough against BP Dodrio + Kyogre + Omastar that would make it impossible to win. I have an affinity for STAB Double-Edge because yknow... strongest risk-less physical attack in the game so any chance I think I can get away with using it, I usually take it. I had planned to be very aggressive as soon as saw any signs of danger within his team and figured I had enough time to preplan what I would want to do against generic common and his common team comps in order to get through them. I decided to go with BP bird since that gave me the most flexible aggressive counterplay to most of his comps and began preplanning what I wanted to do with the team.

Game: A Groudon lead is rather ambiguous in terms of what the team behind it is since it allows Ho-Oh and some of the most dangerous stall teams around to function properly as well as allowing for some offenses. My play is to always Ice Beam a slower Groudon to see any combination of what type of eon he is running, if there is a Blissey, or see what spread the Groudon has in order to sharpen my view of what I am facing. Ice Beam hits a Latias and rolls in a way that the Latias spread is still hidden unfortunately. Ismakhil isn't super obligated to do anything in particular with the Latias and with my team still in good enough health to survive an aggressive move from him, I decide to find out more about his team with Snorlax; specifically looking for what his response to a Body Slam is since it will likely correlate with his Dodrio response later. I want to punish a potential Forretress + Deoxys-A response (Lugia was off the table with Latias being there imo) as hard as possible so I Curse in order to apply some pressure to the Forretress side of things since it is very obligated to set up Spikes on its first turn out and I get another scary Curse out of the deal (I'm looking to block Explosion with Protect with this play best case scenario). Groudon shows itself first though so I get to Body Slam it and see where it's EVs are while also doing meaningful damage for my rain + bird core. This also tells me he isn't setting up Spikes with a steel as that would have come in first almost certainly and takes the really scary stalls off the table along with the Latias being there. I now am fairly certain this is at least a decent match up for the bird if the Groudon is ever weak and I am able to find Spikes. Groudon Roars as I Body Slam and reveals both my Omastar which isn't good. Roar Groudon drop one of HP Ghost or Swords Dance so throwing in Kyogre the way I did was a bit of a misplay as that could have easily been Toxic from his end. The reason I did throw in Kyogre was because I really wanted his Latias to take another Ice Beam so that I might be able to better discern what its Speed stat looks like.

Thankfully, Kyogre only takes a very weak Earthquake (a bit of an odd play from his end but I'll take it) and he does let me Ice Beam Latias again only this time damage I got tells me that this is a max HP Latias or very very close to it. This suggests to me that Latias is running at most 320 Speed or slightly above but unlikely above 327; My Dodrio will outspeed it. Ismakhil wisely Recovers again in order to keep the Latias set ambiguous though this play does suggest to me that this is a mono attacker so I need to be wary of his potential Kyogre countermeasure whether it be a second eon, or a Blissey. Snorlax is in again to find out more about his response to its attacks and a Metagross shows itself. I really need Spikes down. I decide that my Metagross's HP is less important that my Kyogre's HP now so I use it to tank the incoming attack as I do have an Omastar to keep a potential Deo-A from winning the game on its own. I decide his next move will tell me what his primary special sponge is. If he takes the Earthquake trade, it is a Snorlax that is potentially Amnesia and I need to get in Kyogre immediately while being super careful with my Metagross from that point forward; If Groudon takes the Earthquake, then I get Latios involved to see what is going on in the last three slots; If he reveals something else, then he reveals something else. He reveals a Ho-Oh and now I am fairly certain that the special sponge is a Blissey with probably Snatch though his play earlier still puts the fear of an amnelax in my mind. Either way, I am looking for Spikes to keep the Groudon and Metagross from hanging around too long so I decide to use this opportunity to put them on the field. Omastar gets poisoned so I do need to be more careful with Metagross now but I do get my layer as he makes a good move and get as much health back on Groudon as he can while the field is clear. I decide the best response to this is a Latios pivot into Kyogre since his Ho-Oh has the sun currently helping it against Latios's Thunder and if he does Earthquake it won't KO unless it crits. I am trying to get Omastar in again for more Spikes so I may begin forcing his Metagross into Spikes constantly while having it take damage instead of just canceling its Leftovers. My Latios drew a Deoxys-D though who is also an awesome mon for Omastar to be in against (if it wasn't clear before, I am now convinced he has no Rapid Spin in his team). I make another rather silly play in Hydro Pump against Deoxys not respecting my Kyogre's Leftovers enough and instead focusing on its attacking opportunities since his team seemed rather weak to a Kyogre assault at this point and I didn't want anything happening to it on switch-in whether it be Explosion from Metagross (this would have been an awesome trade for me in retrospect but the last looked rather irresponsible at this point and I had no idea what it might be; I had mixed thoughts on this trade at the time), Toxic from Ho-Oh or Toxic from Groudon all of which would make my odds of winning worse depending on the last. I end up hitting a Blissey as a happy accident though.

Now I full faith in Dodrio to get through his team if I can get Latios in a position where it can attack, buying Omastar all the Spikes turns I should need for the game (I now realize my mistake and correct my plan accordingly). Step 1 is finding a way to turn a Snorlax outing into a Latios outing as that is my key to more Spikes. I can do this by finding a Kyogre or Omastar opening against his very high value Metagross at this point but I want to play that sequence out at least once before I try anything. He gives me a Deoxys-D outing against Snorlax instead (speeds things up; I'll take it) so I get to start stacking with Omastar and thinking about managing my Dodrio's HP for recoil. I Thief first due to him showing Knock Off earlier and his team really wanting Spikes and hating opposing Spikes (so Taunt > Night Shade), his current position being rather terrible, and his potential switch-ins having very high value items. This was a bit of unneeded play in retrospect but it does help my Latios along with the 2nd layer of Spikes I get guaranteed. As I suspected though, I still get the layer I need and more while also getting attempts at seeing where his Deoxys EVs are (mostly the Speed vs SpD split) so that I might be able to plan my Kyogre sequence more accurately later if I get the chance. I miss the two Hydros though so nothing ever came of those turns unfortunately.

With all 3 Spikes down I can now blow up his remaining Spikes-immune switch-in to my Snorlax or else he suffers a crippling weakness to my last 4 without his Deo-D or Groudon. This also stops my Kyogre from taking Spikes damage without his Groudon or Metagross taking damage first. I throw Latios in after the double down because I really wanted Blissey or Deoxys in as I fully expected to cede my Kyogre's Leftovers with Omastar gone (I could have sequenced this better in retrospect as having Omastar to sac after the Explosion would have been nice). Now I begin the Thunder Wave cycle to either ruin his Deoxys or buy my Snorlax an outing without it taking any more damage than Spikes (I would have started conditioning with Latios Thunder if he went to Blissey looking for a BP with Dodrio). I throw Kyogre at Metagross because he really doesn't want my Snorlax to hit his Groudon again (this would happen if he Explodes) with there being a potential Deoxys-A in my last slot and all. I recycle the sequence to force Metagross to take more Spikes. His Metagross not having Leftovers has been very helpful though I can't really beat Agility Metagross at the moment so I have to assume Pursuit in order to help against Rock Slide Deoxys-A + Spikes. I luckily block his now pretty apparent Explosion with an unrevealed Protect that may also help my Snorlax handle +1 Latias that I see becoming a problem later. Ismakhil then uses Groudon to Toxic my switch-in for reasons he knows and I don't (maybe Ray related?). Luckily, my switch-in is a Kyogre sac and he allows me to Ice Beam his Latias to make sure Dodrio can KO it with Double-Edge as Kyogre falls to poison (happy accident if you ask me). Now the game is about managing Dodrio well enough to KO a combo of Groudon + one of Latias or Blissey in order to make sure Latios and Snorlax have a clear shot through the endgame. He is forced to give up Deoxys here which makes my Latios's job much easier, I take a lot of time here to figure out what my Snorlax can and can't do and decide that it cannot handle the combo of Spikes + Latias + Stoss Blissey so I throw in Latios and begin applying pressure to the Blissey who I learn is Calm (and not Bold + Counter) on turn 39. I could have PP stalled a little longer than I did but I didn't really want to mess around with a potential PP stall + Latias play so I went straight to Dodrio on Seismic despite this not being what I wanted initially.

I chose a very aggressive Double-Edge after making some admittedly hasty head-calcs regarding Double-Edge recoil vs Blissey. I didn't realize just how aggressive this was until rewatching the game with Drill Peck being a fine move whose consequence was a mindgame regarding when I bring in Snorlax vs his Latias (if he uses Dragon Claw aggressively or gets a Calm Mind without Snorlax being in, I lose; if Snorlax gets in on an unboosted Latias Recover, I win bar Latias Dragon Claw crit). Either way, he makes the conservative move in switching in Groudon probably expecting to play that mindgame and win. Instead Groudon falls immediately and both Latias and Blissey are both threatened with a KO the following turn. He wisely plays for the Dragon Claw crit by forcing me to give up Dodrio while it knocks out Blissey. I have a very simple sequence of Body Slam > Curse > continuous Shadow Ball ahead of me but Snorlax KOs Latias with a critical hit Body Slam before Latias had a shot of getting one of its own which ends the game.
This was a game I reviewed many times due to just how many turns caused noisy internal head dialogue while both playing out the current sequences and attempting to forecast the game to its end.

Sorry for the length of the post but this game had a lot I needed to keep track of and I probably should have used more of my timer on a couple of the turns in all honesty (a common theme with me). These are the kinds of games I always hope to play for whether I win or lose them.
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Hey guys, while we wait for BP to be purged from our beloved metagame, why not try out something hot and new like RS Doubles Ubers? I'll try my best with this post to give you guys a primer but this is still very much virgin territory so it is by no means absolute.

To play this format you must challenge somebody in [Gen 3] Doubles Custom Game. So don't be a dunce and try to cheat, we are all doing this for fun. Species, Evasion, OHKO apply and that's it. There may also be one Pokemon that you might want to agree with your opponent to not bring, more on it later in this post.

Key mechanics to note is that gen 3 doubles is unique with regards to spread moves. If the spread move only hits the two opponent Pokemon (Surf, Rock Slide, Water Spout) then it is 1/2 its usual power. However, if a spread hits every single Pokemon on the field (Earthquake, Explosion, Selfdestruct) then it is at full power!

Another important mechanics detail is that when a Pokemon is fainted, it must be immediately replaced mid-turn. For example, you can have your Mewtwo and your Gengar click boom on the same turn and potentially wipe out four of your opponent's Pokemon! (and probably lose 3 of your own in the process)

Here's what I think I know about the Pokemon in the metagame. (there's no particular order outside of what I think of first)

Much like in regular RS Ubers, the weather kaijus are very important Pokemon in the metagame. Not only are they individually powerful, (Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps and full power EQ spread) but they also enable/combat an assortment of weather related mechanics like Thunder, Swift Swim, Cholorphyl, Hydro Pumps, etc.

Naturally, with the kaijus being so dominant, Soul Dew Lati@s become equally important. They function much the same way that they do in singles but now with Protect instead of Refresh everywhere. I imagine Latios is going to be the general favorite for the strongest Thunder in the metagame and the Ice Beam OHKO on Groudon but these Pokemon are so versatile that there's a lot to explore still.

This Pokemon gets massively buffed with the shift to doubles. Access to Fake Out and Explosion as well as all the support moves and coverage you could ever want is huge. There's not many choices for a faster Fake Out which makes Mew one of the best leads. I've also seen things like Skill Swap with Slaking used to success. Make sure to keep this Pokemon in mind when choosing your leads.

If you do want a faster Fake Out than Mew then it's hard to contest with the offensive might of Ludicolo with Kyogre. Fastest Fake Out in the game under Rain and its powerful Hydro Pump makes it doubly hard to deal with the Kyogre partner. Itemless with Thief is my favorite set to use since it makes it difficult for Lati@s to counter your Kyogre.

There's no Sleep Clause in doubles and Encore is a rare and valuable option, especially when you are faster than the rest of the metagame. Not only does your Encore punish a Pokemon that use Protect the turn prior, but in gen 3 it also makes single target moves randomly target one of the two opponents.

Fast sleep and fast boom. With no Sleep Clause, you can't play around that combo nearly as easily as you can in singles.

With boom being so powerful, it is important to have your own Steel-type to help combat it. Both of these also have access to their own boom. Steelix comes with the STAB Earthquake and the ability to pivot on Thunders while Metagross has the better stats and lack of exploitable weaknesses.

You'll want to be able to answer Lati@s and Snorlax fills that role nicely. You also can't ignore having the strongest boom in the game. Yet another reason you might want to have a Steel-type on your team.

Immune to boom and booms itself, you honestly don't need more of a reason than that. However, Gengar also brings with it Levitate and a big Sp. Atk to toss around Thunders with. Wisp, Hypnosis, Skill Swap, Icy Wind, and Dbond are also noteworthy.

Obviously this Pokmon is going to be good. The giant Special offense with fast ass boom is just as good here as it is in singles. Try out Substitute to punish panic Protect turns. This guy is another reason why Swift Swim, Chlorophyl, and Fake Out are so good.

Immune to boom and has great support movepool. Imprison with Ice Beam and Protect makes it very difficult for your opponent to beat your Lati@s or answer your booms. It also comes with Skill Swap if you like Slakings or Icy Wind if you want speed control. STAB Shadow Ball to hit enemy Lati@s is also very much noteworthy.

Lugia's speed and giant bulk is really valuable in Doubles. Reflect and Flying-type goes a long way in helping you deal with the powerful spread physical moves. Icy Wind is the only speed control in this gen outside of Thunder Wave. It hits both of your opponent's Pokemon and with Lugia's huge bulk you have plenty of opportunities to abuse that. It's not difficult to reach an endgame where Recover and Ice Beam just wins since there's nothing left strong enough to break Lugia's defenses.

I've not seen this used yet but, with the drop in Spikes, Toxic, and Pursuit as well as the weather kaijus protecting you from Sand, there's a lot going for this Pokemon. It's immune to boom, eq, Kyogre, and everything Lati@s is probably running, the list of Pokemon that can't touch this thing doesn't even stop there. It doesn't have much to offer in terms of support but manual weather moves do have more value in doubles and there's probably something that you can do with Swords Dance and Baton Pass. Also Swagger with Lum Berry Groudon or Rayquaza is a strong combo.

Rayquaza's ability to turn off weather has even great implications in doubles. Not only do you shut down Chlorophyl and Swift Swim while it is on the field, you also protect your teammate from Rain Hydro Pumps or enable their Fire Blasts.

I don't think I've seen this used much yet but Intimidate and its great immunities and resistances are sure to count for something.

The biggest loser from the switch to doubles. Not being able to OHKO most things and dying to a stiff breeze hurts a lot in doubles. The other formes of Deoxys don't seem to be that great, either. Speed is probably alright for the quick manual weather and other support options at least.

The boom resist and giant Hydro Pumps are great but the Earthquake and Thunder weaknesses as well as the reliance on Rain aren't. Thief is good here, again, to nail Lati@s for your Kyogre.

I've mentioned it many time before but Skill Swap Slaking is very much viable. Repeated (Choice Band) Double Edges/Returns hurt everything and it has a great speed and natural bulk to function in a doubles environment. There's enough things with Skill Swap that it isn't really that much setup to get it going.

You will probably want to ban this Pokemon when you play with eachother, lol. Shadow Tag alone has a lot of value when you trap twice as many Pokemon. With how weather centric a lot of strategies are, just getting the lock on their kaiju to ensure a kill is already plenty of value. Wobbuffet does more than just that, though. It's bulk is really just massive on both sides, you can double target it with your Groudon and Dragon Claw Latios and it still won't die that turn. This makes it pretty consistent at getting at least one kill on its own with CounterCoat. You can't just ignore it, either. Encore lock when your opponent can't switch but you can is really powerful. Again, Encore causes single target moves like Ice Beam to randomly target one of the two enemy Pokemon so you can force a cheap kill with Encore into CounterCoat.

I've not seen this used yet but Fake Out, Knock Off, STAB Cross Chop, Thick Fat, and solid bulk is a lot going for it.

Apparently this Pokemon is good in ADV DOU and I could see it working in DUbers as well. Icy Wind, Encore, and Fake Out are all really valuable support moves to have.

This list of Pokemon is very much not exhaustive. Again, there's a lot to explore still in this metagame.
This is the team that I've been spamming if you want something quick to start with. There's a lot of complexity and branching paths of play in doubles so team matchup seems to not be as strong a factor in general. I've not had much issues with that build fighting all the different things people have thrown at me so far, at least.

This metagame is a lot of fun, especially if you are a fan of singles Adv Ubers already. As crazy as boom might seem at a glance, it's not actually that crazy in practice. There's still that simple beauty to gen 3 and the metagame is very unique and unlike anything else you could play. Having the weather kaijus vs relying on manual weather separates it a lot from Adv DOU, already. Feel free to hit me up for games.


Moving Ever Forward
is a Contributor Alumnus
My ADVPL games p3:
w5 vs Chill Shadow

Pregame: I decided right after my game with Ismakhil that I was going to be pretty boring this week. I didn't have the most time to prep ever and I figured this would be a decent opportunity to use the team style that is both really strong and I am currently the weakest at using: Sun Stall. I told my team what 6 I was using and gave them the sets I had at the time, but the sets earned several :nauseated_face: from Exiline and he ended up optimizing the 6 with his own sets along with a short but detailed explanation of what they do better than the originals (thanks for doing this and letting me share the sets here). So with the 6 I wanted and a fleshed out team from a sun stall master, I began planning what I would do against the teams Chill likes though I will admit I didn't spend enough time planning for this game and it definitely showed.

Game: Groudon is met with a Latios lead telling me that stall is off the table from Chill's end. Groudon is forced out of here and Blissey and Ho-Oh will be revealed. I chose Blissey first to cover a possible Kyogre attack opportunity but in hindsight Ho-Oh should have been the move here as I either get met with Kyogre while I have full health Blissey and learn more about his team or I get the chance to see what the weather member is (if there is one) anyways while still having the turn to pivot in Blissey and cover an aggressive Thunder (my team is still at full health so I can still handle untimely mon reveals). Due to my misplay, I lack the information to properly assess if I can pivot into any of my mons that actually threaten offense / balance and am forced to leave Blissey in to do something (Light Screen had the most guaranteed benefit given my lack of info). He Thunders Blissey to see what move Blissey uses and possibly catch and early pivot from me while Blissey puts up Light Screen. I intend to use the Light Screen to allow Ho-Oh to somewhat safely threaten Latios so I move forward with that plan as he reveals Snorlax the turn Ho-Oh comes in; No matter what type of Snorlax it is, I now need Spikes down asap. The odds of ChillShadow using a potential CB Snorlax to Self-Destruct right away are pretty low given that my team can effectively use Dusclops and the risk / reward of a aggressive Fire Blast isn't good either so I figure I can throw Forretress at it now in an attempt to get Spikes based on what the Snorlax uses. Forretress ends up taking an unfortunate Choice Band Body Slam crit from the Snorlax and stays in to bring Forretress below half with another Body Slam which raises some alarms that something in the back really, really doesn't like a healthy Forretress though I'm not super certain of what it is yet (I'm thinking Deo-A that doesn't want to Superpower lock, Heracross, Aero, CB Ray, Agiligross, etc).

Forretress gets 2 turns to use Spikes in the meantime and is met with Metagross while putting up the second layer. It shows Leftovers and I don't know what type of weather support it has so I send out Ho-Oh to take anything but the unlikely Explosion or Rock Slide. This could have been Groudon pivot Ho-Oh in hindsight in order to make sure I don't get punished for disrespecting Rock Slide; though if Metagross does have Rock Slide, it likely isn't super valuable and might use Explosion anyways depending on his back mons that I can never know from my position... complicated turn. Ho-Oh makes it in on Meteor Mash and gets to Sacred Fire as it looks like nothing on his team likes Ho-Oh in the sun so far. Sacred Fire hits a Kyogre but doesn't burn. Kyogre and his Mash play tells me that the Metagross likely does have Pursuit or a Deoxys in the back has it so I now need to find another layer of Spikes and damage the Metagross. Kyogre not being burned means it has many more turns to para or crit through Blissey but I am still forced into it anyways. I must Toxic then Light Screen as there is incentive for Kyogre to Calm Mind or Hydro on potential paralysis turn but he smartly brings in Snorlax to find out what my secondary response to it is as Forretress is no longer a good one. Given that I have a Deoxys-A, full health Overheat Groudon, and a defensive Ho-Oh, I decide that I can afford to use my weak Forretress as a pivot into Lugia just in case Chill does something abusable looking for Lugia or a Dusclops (I either get Leftovers or Leftovers + Spikes if this happens). This is yet another bad sequence as Forretress is now in Meteor Mash + Meteor Mash/Earthquake range which does come into play later when I try to quickly damage Metagross.

Lugia gets to remove 4 Body Slams and draws Latios from Chill. I am thankful this was Latios and not something like a Mewtwo that I would have to do some really stupid stuff to stay in the game. I am now pretty convinced there is a physical Deoxys-A in the last two mons but I am unsure what the 6th slot is. He attempts to Thunder para down my forced Blissey before resuming his attack with Snorlax who paralyzes Lugia on the way in. Lugia get fully paralyzed on the two turns it was supposed to Recover after setting Reflect and is left in bad enough shape that Chill gets to make an aggressive move with Latios forcing in my Blissey and him proactively switching in Snorlax again. This KOs Lugia and leaves Snorlax with 3 Body Slams. I thought about using Forretress here to get up my final layer but I figured its sac would be more important down the line against his last two so I use Groudon and decide to Earthquake the Snorlax instead of HP Ghost the Latios because of my potential Forre sac, Deo-A, and full health Ho-Oh still giving solid security against just about anything Latios sequences into naturally and to make sure Kyogre is heavily punished if he tries to get cute switching it in.

He strangely allows me to KO the Snorlax and uses it to bring in Kyogre in order to buy his next presumed Blissey-abusing threat a switch in. Instead, Metagross meets Blissey this time in an effort to damage my Groudon or remove my sacrificial Forretress. The Meteor Mash he uses misses and allows Forretress to get up its final layer of Spikes. He then does something very peculiar and Meteor Mashes twice more which allows Forretress to use Explosion and wipe out any shot of Metagross removing my Deo-A prematurely (this also revealed the Metagross to have very little to absolute zero Defense EVs which makes this set of moves even more strange to me). With all 3 Spikes layers on the field I can play pretty safely as I bring in Groudon either force in Latios, reveal an unknown Spikes immune so that I may plan around it, or heavily tax everything else with Earthquake + Spikes. He decides to give up Metagross and rely on his flex mon to weaken my Groudon and starts that process by forcing in Blissey with Latios. He then pivots in Kyogre on my Blissey to force rain up which reawakens fears of Sub Calm Mind Mewtwo and forces Toxic from my Blissey instead of Light Screen. The Toxic lands on a Lugia and judging by the way it has been played so far, it is almost certainly holding a Choice Band. My only real play to keep me safe from his presumed Deoxys-A is to eat all 4 (Pressure nerfed) Aeroblasts with Ho-Oh and hope for no 1/8 crits. He uses 4 of his 8 PP and brings in Latios to force in Blissey again and then strangely doesn't use this opportunity to bring in his presumed Deoxys-A. He instead dumps the rest of his Aeroblasts into Ho-Oh who dodged all 4 potential crits and uses Toxic either force Latios to Refresh, hit the now somewhat obscure last, or make it so Kyogre will almost never break Blissey. He lets Latios take it and finally reveals the Deoxys as I bring in Blissey.

I have a Ho-Oh to sacrifice now that Lugia's one scary move is gone as my bird comes in on an unboosted but EV invested Superpower. I now know this Deoxys most likely has a Spell Tag and may also have Rock Slide so I abuse its weakened attack stat and pivot in Groudon. I make a headass move in Earthquake trying to make sure he can never do anything cute with Kyogre but in retrospect I should always use HP Ghost in order to make sure Blissey gets a pretty game-ending Light Screen up. Chill's position is dire enough to where he begins to Thunder Blissey in the sun after using Refresh to cure Latios. Blissey gets to both use Light Screen and buy Ho-Oh a turn to come in with Toxic though in retrospect it did waste a turn of Light Screen. A single Shadow Ball on Latios allows my Deoxys's Rock Slide to KO everything so I begin using it and end up KOing the Thundering Latios while keeping my Ho-Oh. I decide to keep my Ho-Oh in order to make sure Groudon can't be double crit by Deoxys Superpower and Chill makes a good move in Thunder Waving my incoming Blissey and beginning to Calm Mind hoping for full paras and Toxic misses. He gets no misses or full para turns though as Blissey successfully gets up Light Screen and poisons the Kyogre; effectively ending the game.

My Deoxys can now always clean up Kyogre and Lugia and I never have to give him enough damage on Groudon so that his Deoxys may OHKO it with critical hit Superpower. He plays the game out to its conclusion but the game was over from this point on.

My weakness in piloting sunstalls really shows here. With the proper early sequencing I could have found some very risk-less Deo-A openings later on and could have had more Spikes earlier. After the game, I was told that this was played far too passively and I agree with that assessment more and more every time I review it. Stall must make plays or get haxed and the making plays part is what was missing in this game. I'm glad the game worked out (though this does feel like a happy accident) and my future games with this style of team will be way better than this one. Lots of progress was made.
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formerly dream
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Hi, now that Most Wanted is over Zayele and I would like to share the relevance of being the game’s host in some specific DPP lead match-ups.
Indeed, the Deoxys-Speed vs. Deoxys-Speed is the most common lead match-up, and one of the most disliked due to a Taunt speed tie often deciding the game turn 1 in offense matchups. More recently we have seen a huge rise in the usage of Choice Scarf Deoxys-S to eliminate these turn 1 ties and improve consistency; the prevalence of this set currently means that there is rarely an optimal play turn 1, as the matchup essentially comes down to guesswork.

However, it is possible to determine whether your opponent is Scarfed at preview by using Pressure ties. Those “ties” don’t actually have any randomness, and that can be used at your advantage. The fastest Deoxys will always display its Pressure first, but when both have the same speed, it comes down to who is hosting the game, i.e. the player that challenged first. (In case there’s any doubt about who did, you can check who sent out their Deoxys first, that player is the host).
In this case, I am the host, as I'm sending my Deoxys first. By winning the tie, I can know she isn't Scarf, while she can't know whether I'm max Speed as well, or Scarfed.
Knowing this can be used to your advantage by challenging first or requesting to be challenged accordingly. If you’re challenging someone using 252+ Speed Deoxys and win the tie, you can be 100% sure they aren’t scarfed, while they don’t get any information (except you being at least max speed, in case they also have this). The method can be reversed by receiving the challenge to check for slower Deo-S, like the offensive Rash set, but these are significantly less common than Scarfed ones currently.
This is also useful when using Scarf Deoxys-S yourself, since by receiving the challenge, you’ll lose the “tie” to other Scarf Deo-S, and beat non-Scarf ones. Of course, this does not change anything when you queue into a non-Scarf Deo-S, but it gets its relevance when both carry the same.

It should be noted we came up with the fact there are hardly any drawbacks to running 30 Speed IVs on Scarf Deo-S, as the only actual flaw is tying with midgame Rash LO Deoxys-A that creeps for Mewtwo, which is very minor. Being a point slower than other Scarf Deoxys-S lets you consistently tell whether they are scarfed or not regardless of who is hosting, and lets you get a free T-Wave or Spikes layer. In case you both opted for T-Wave turn 1, you even get the “chance” of being fully paralyzed to click Spikes the next turn. Using 29 IVs puts you at 394 speed, making you tie with Mewtwo after you Trick your Scarf away. This is a much more relevant issue than the Deoxys-A one, and should be avoided in my opinion.

This whole tie matter also applies to other lead match-ups where both leads have an ability that is revealed upon switching in, such as Deoxys-A, Tyranitar, Kyogre or Ho-Oh (Pressure and weather inducing abilities also attempt to tie), however, those are much more uncommon, and mostly relevant to the Tyranitar lead mirror. In that case you will want to receive the challenge if you are Sash max speed to check for opposing Lum lead, or challenge with 0 speed IV if you are Lum yourself.

(Random anecdote - when Zayele and I played each other in MW, we used !dice to pick the host randomly).
Just wanted to give you guys an update on this. This was brought up to PS developers and after receiving word from Lauriane herself and testing with steelskitty just now, this seems to have been fixed (challenges dictating who would "win the tie" with these sorts of abilities - being able to determine opponents' speeds based on who sent the challenge). If you're unaware of the past issue, just read through Lauriane's post where she eloquently explains what was going on. It is now working as it should (if a pokemon is faster they'll still obviously display it first but now the role of sending/receiving the battle challenge is irrelevant) just in time for UPL and Classic playoffs!
Sorry if this isn't an appropriate post but I need to know

Why is Probopass ranked in the gen 5 VR? I can't think of anything it can do. My best guess is as a FEAR abuser but in the teambuilding commudium, it has Probopass listed as a "special wall". My second best guess was to trap heatran with magnet rise and earth power but heatran doesn't seem like it's good enough to the point where it would justify an obscure answer to. What does it do?


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Sorry if this isn't an appropriate post but I need to know

Why is Probopass ranked in the gen 5 VR? I can't think of anything it can do. My best guess is as a FEAR abuser but in the teambuilding commudium, it has Probopass listed as a "special wall". My second best guess was to trap heatran with magnet rise and earth power but heatran doesn't seem like it's good enough to the point where it would justify an obscure answer to. What does it do?
Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Toxic
- Earth Power
So the deal with Probopass is that its primary function is comparable to Magnezone's in BW OU: trapping defensive Steel-types and serving as a check to the odd dragon here and there. If this set gets in on Ferrothorn without getting Leech Seeded or Thunder Waved, it can deny it hazards and very slowly KO it while coming out alive. Also trapped are Taunt-less Skarrmory, support Dialga in Rain or neutral weather, Heatran, Genesect locked into Ice Beam or Bug Buzz or Flamethrower in neutral weather or Rain, and Volt Switch-less Forretress. As for defensive utility, it's a viable check on Sun teams to Latios and Latias, unless they have the somewhat uncommon Grass Knot. The set works by wearing things down and in some cases forcing them to Struggle through a combination of Taunt, Pain Split, and Earth Power, with Toxic to give it some utility outside of trapping Steels (you could replace this with Magic Coat, Discharge, Stealth Rock, Torment, or Mimic if you don't care about checking Latis or Toxicing the stray Groudon). Probopass's not that great a Pokemon, and it'll only very rarely be the sort of thing you'd see filling a big hole in your teams, but I felt it could find a home toward the bottom of B- as it's seen occasional use and has a very distinct niche.
Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Toxic
- Earth Power
So the deal with Probopass is that its primary function is comparable to Magnezone's in BW OU: trapping defensive Steel-types and serving as a check to the odd dragon here and there. If this set gets in on Ferrothorn without getting Leech Seeded or Thunder Waved, it can deny it hazards and very slowly KO it while coming out alive. Also trapped are Taunt-less Skarrmory, support Dialga in Rain or neutral weather, Heatran, Genesect locked into Ice Beam or Bug Buzz or Flamethrower in neutral weather or Rain, and Volt Switch-less Forretress. As for defensive utility, it's a viable check on Sun teams to Latios and Latias, unless they have the somewhat uncommon Grass Knot. The set works by wearing things down and in some cases forcing them to Struggle through a combination of Taunt, Pain Split, and Earth Power, with Toxic to give it some utility outside of trapping Steels (you could replace this with Magic Coat, Discharge, Stealth Rock, Torment, or Mimic if you don't care about checking Latis or Toxicing the stray Groudon). Probopass's not that great a Pokemon, and it'll only very rarely be the sort of thing you'd see filling a big hole in your teams, but I felt it could find a home toward the bottom of B- as it's seen occasional use and has a very distinct niche.
That's.... fascinating. I didn't think it would be better than Magnezone at trapping steels in ubers but its lack of a fire weakness, massive special defense, and taunt makes a huge difference here. Thanks for the answer!


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Sorry if this isn't an appropriate post but I need to know

Why is Probopass ranked in the gen 5 VR? I can't think of anything it can do. My best guess is as a FEAR abuser but in the teambuilding commudium, it has Probopass listed as a "special wall". My second best guess was to trap heatran with magnet rise and earth power but heatran doesn't seem like it's good enough to the point where it would justify an obscure answer to. What does it do? here you can see it in action too (UPL 6, Week 5)

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