Because ubers players get banned
Actually they don't, there's still quite a huge ubers playerbase compared to the AG playerbase
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Resource Ubers Simple Questions, Simple Answers v2
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
Because ubers players get banned
Actually they don't, there's still quite a huge ubers playerbase compared to the AG playerbase
Because of the lack of clauses, being more suitable for non-competitive/test teams and fun, unofficial tier so it doesn't really count, etc. It is a tier where diversity is promoted heavily.
I need a strong revenge killer for my team. Here it is:
Flying KFC (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 192 HP / 248 Atk / 60 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Tailwind
Bulky Boi (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 236 Atk / 132 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roar
- Precipice Blades
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Spec-ial attacker (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
No Ice Zone (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Xerneas is a dick (Yveltal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Roost
- Defog
Marshadow=gay (Lucario-Mega) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance
I might replace my Kyruem. He's really good but I find
Flying KFC (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 192 HP / 248 Atk / 60 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Tailwind
Bulky Boi (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 236 Atk / 132 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roar
- Precipice Blades
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Spec-ial attacker (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
No Ice Zone (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Xerneas is a dick (Yveltal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Roost
- Defog
Marshadow=gay (Lucario-Mega) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance
The one to replace is Kyruem. He's good, but he's often setup bait and doesn't quite have the raw power I'm looking for. (He did 93% to a -1 Marshadow with no investment with Ice Beam.) I would like something physical, if possible. Got any suggestions?
Flying KFC (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 192 HP / 248 Atk / 60 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Tailwind
Bulky Boi (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 236 Atk / 132 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roar
- Precipice Blades
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Spec-ial attacker (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
No Ice Zone (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Xerneas is a dick (Yveltal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Roost
- Defog
Marshadow=gay (Lucario-Mega) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance
I might replace my Kyruem. He's really good but I find
Flying KFC (Ho-Oh) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 192 HP / 248 Atk / 60 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Tailwind
Bulky Boi (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 236 Atk / 132 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roar
- Precipice Blades
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Spec-ial attacker (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
No Ice Zone (Zygarde-Complete) @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Xerneas is a dick (Yveltal) @ Leftovers
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Roost
- Defog
Marshadow=gay (Lucario-Mega) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance
The one to replace is Kyruem. He's good, but he's often setup bait and doesn't quite have the raw power I'm looking for. (He did 93% to a -1 Marshadow with no investment with Ice Beam.) I would like something physical, if possible. Got any suggestions?
Mega Gengar over Mega Lucario or Scarf Xerneas. you can always do Band/Scarf Slaking but ew. Life Orb Timid Mewtwo works amazingly well. Kyurem is good on your team but I would suggest a different set in your case, don't get rid of it.
Also your Primal Groudon's set is better on normal Groudon + Leftovers fyi :)
I'd say replace Kyruem with scarf xern
also what do you use lucario for that you can't do with DM? Your Kyruem already has flash cannon so revenge killing isn't the answer so what is?
No
First of all Pdon > Groudon in all scenarios
Second of all the team doesn't have any other Pogre checks which is extremely important
so keep Red Orb on Groudon
Mega Lucario is here to synergise with Mega Ho-oh to kill Xerneas, Ho-oh switches in, tanks thunder, uses tailwind, and M-Lucario comes in and threatens out or kills. And you forgot a very important factor, Lucario is a physical attacker. Kyruem is bodied by Xerneas and Flash cannon does nothing. It's also very rare that he uses Flash Canon to be locked into it. And yeah, I'm keeping Primal Groudon. Groudon wouldn't ever work as his primary objective is to outspeed standard lead Groudon and murder him, them set up rocks, or if a setup sweeper leads, thunder wave then roar. And I don't want to get another special attacker. If I'm changing Lucario, it's for a physical attacker. And besides, he has great offensive pressure and this team checks or counters all of his answers, so I can often sweep a weakened team if I play him right. I don't really want to change Kyruem, but I will if I find a better option. I'm thinking Specs or banded Deoxys A, but that might be overkill. What I need is power and speed.
In all scenarios... wth
Well, on the majority of viable teams.
I am not really into Ubers. However I was always wondering how a mon like Primal-Groudon is as Meta defining as it is when there is Dugtrio that can just trap it and kill it after SR?
252+ Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 356-422 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 356-422 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
What you mentioned about Dugtrio is just about what it can do in Ubers, and it can't do anything else because it is OHKOed by just about every attack and faster threats exist to offensively threaten more Pokemon.
Primal Groudon is seen in almost every competitive (or serious) teams because of how much utility it can provide to the team in offensive and defensive sides, fit in most teams with little or no opportunity risk, and customize sets in varying ways without hindering what it can already fulfill.
yeah but why not bring eject button + duggy on every team if groundon is on every team anyways
1) Because there are other things that perform the task almost as well while having a much wider array of uses (Dugtrio is basically limited to Magearna, Groudon and Necrozma-DM lacking Ultranecrozium) and don't require your Z-move slot to accomplish anything useful.
2) A 1-1 trade for Primal Groudon isn't necessarily beneficial, because its dominance is in role compression rather than doing one thing exceptionally well. It has a lot of uses, but rarely constitutes a threat demanding an immediate answer like, say, Xerneas does, and is thus much easier to wear down over time.
3) It could well be a 2-1 trade in your opponent's favour because Dugtrio basically has to come in after a faint in order to get in safely and is quite likely to just die without doing much after that.
4) Rock Polish is far from unheard of on Groudon and I'm pretty sure it outspeeds Dugtrio after using it, so it isn't even necessarily a reliable check.
5) Dugtrio doesn't have enough power to deal with defensive variants of Groudon (at least without a setup move or prior damage) which are also quite common.
That said, it has an ubers analysis so it's not like Dugtrio is completely unviable.
Hmm I think a key difference is that the acid rain glitch was asymmetric in terms of who could trigger it iirc, which would have made things awkward since there are very few mechanics where asymmetry occurs and they're usually relatively niche, which means none of it gets implemented on sims (afaik, could be wrong).
I just have trouble buying in on the current version of g4 ubers as a legit ubers tier. Like I'm increasingly of the opinion that ubers is the way the game ought to be played (except rby ubers lol), but then arbitrarily banning Arc doesn't really sit well with that.
A better example would be the Giratina glitch (it is possible to have a Giratina with 150 hp / 120 at / 100 de / 120 sa / 100 sd / 90 sp and a Giratina-O with 150 hp / 100 at / 120 de / 100 sa / 120 sd / 90 sp) I suppose. Either way, this tier will break tiering policy unless there is a heavy focus on subjectivity (not likely). It is the way it is and I don't think we would be allowed to retest Arceus in any form due to the large amount of negativity these suggestions tend to bring about. While I do agree that it is a bastard format, I will also happily accept it for the time being.
Is there any reason to not use red orb on Groudon?
Well, you do have access to things like Z-Moves, but overrall? No, the opportunity cost of not using Primal Groudon is way too high.
The one niche vanilla Groudon has over Primal Groudon is that it can run Dragonium Z to clap the Giratina formes and other Dragons that Primal Groudon otherwise has a little difficulty dealing with (unless it runs HP Ice, which is very viable, or Dragon Pulse, which is a little less viable) while also acting as a soft check to Primal Groudon itself since it's neutral to Ground but still has that STAB Precipice Blades coming off of a pretty high Attack stat.
The issue with it is that it has a downright obscene opportunity cost to run. You're losing access to something with a Burn/Water immunity, Fairy and Steel resist, and a crazy high Special Attack stat with a nice Fire STAB on Overheat/Fire Blast/Eruption/Lava Plume, and all those roles combined are only a fraction of what Primal Groudon is able to effectively compress into one behemoth of a mon.
To further compound this issue, you're also giving up a Z-move slot that you could be using on something else. You could've used that Z-move on something like Necrozma (Ultra or just Dusk Mane with Searing Sunraze Smash), Lunala, Marshadow, Groundceus, Zygarde-C, Ho-oh, Arceus-Normal (Chople is better though, tbh), Naganadel, Dugtrio, etc., all of which range from downright excellent in this meta to niche but nevertheless viable by providing something unique.
I'm gonna go very much against the Viability Rankings by saying that regular Groudon is certainly viable in the tier. It's genuinely still a strong mon in its own respect but it just happens to be extremely outclassed at almost anything it can hope to achieve nowadays by a far more versatile threat, and unlike some of the garbage in the D-rank (here's looking at you, Deoxys-Normal and Psyceus) it does have a single thing that differentiates it from its primary competition and if you use it for that role and that role alone it can actually work. However, 99% of the time it will not quite go as planned because it revolves entirely around the surprise factor of your opponent expecting any of a billion different Primal sets but you ended up just running Dragonium instead. Trying to stray from that Dragonium Z niche will leave it completely and hopelessly outclassed by Primal Groudon in every possible way, but running that Dragonium Z set ends up costing you both your Primal Groudon and your Z-move user for something that beats about two things Primal Groudon outright doesn't have a set for. At that point I sure as hell hope you can conjure up a Primal Kyogre answer extremely quickly, because that thing is going to show no mercy as it tears through your team like a hot knife through butter.
TL;DR: There's exactly one reason to not use Red Orb, but it's a reason that requires a lot of balls or a lot of justification because of just how good Primal Groudon is.
The main reasons Arceus was never played with in Gen 4 was because a) It was only ever released via distribution events and EV capped at 100 EVs per stat by being released at level 100, and the event came 6 months after the release of Platinum in the States, meaning Ubers had already been adapting to Platinum for even longer than that due to the staggered release dates with Japan being first. We also had no idea what it would look like at release because the Azure Flute event never happened, and if Arceus was never released, we would be playing a "fake" metagame despite us knowing the code existed for it in the game (think Dream World shit) b) It was thought to be broken way beyond normal standards by that time (think Mega Ray in ORAS) and would have severely shifted competitive play from a desirable state (remember, Ubers was part of Smogon Tour and SPL at this time).
"True" DPP Ubers would indeed include Arceus but it just wasn't what people wanted at the time. You can read more about it here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/arceus.47536/
On this note, this discussion that followed the discovery of a glitch that would have made the Hall of Origin Arceus obtainable is interesting.
ok silly question but how are the uber stats categorized?? is it by rating??
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2019-02/
A Pokémon is Ubers when they are simply banned from OU, not related to usage at all; think of it as a kind of OUBL in that case.
sorry i meant the usage stats in the link i gave in my last post, my question is how are those usage stats categorized?? looks like rating to me!!