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Resource Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

So two things for Volcarona’s analysis:

1. For Bulkarona, can we specify the Spe benchmarks that a player may use to outspeed certain threats? For example, using 184 Spe or 212 Spe to outspeed certain threats (184 catches max Speed Adamant Lando and max Speed Scarf Lando at +1, while 212 gets to base 95s). I would also mention that these Speeds cut into Volc’s bulk, which it does need.

2. Can a Defog set go in OO? Defog, Wisp, Roost, Flamethrower with Wiki, Firium or Lefties fits on stall teams to check things like Ferro, Maw and Kyu-B. Charmflash and a few others I think have used this team to success and I see it more than SubSwarm.

Edit: Also, for Greninja’s Dual Hazards sets, change Toxic Spikes to Hidden Power Fire and change the name to “Suicide Lead”. This set’s only realy use is on Hazard Stack HO, on which no one really benefits from Toxic Spikes. These teams would much rather prefer to nail M-Scizor (who is dangerous for these teams if they lack a Steel-resist), Ferrothorn and chip Celesteela for something Specs Tapu Lele.
 
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Ophion

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The Z Water set is Protean Greninja’s first set listed despite being less popular and effective than the physical version. Can you guys put Z Water as the 2nd set as to better show physical is more relevant?
 

MattL

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For Magearna's Shift Gear and AV sets, the same quick sentence should be included in Moves to explain why Aura Sphere isn't used. I know that it previously was mentioned in the analysis and there was a general movement to remove any unnecessary or obvious information from them for concision purposes, but it's really not obvious to the average person why Focus Blast is used over Aura Sphere considering Focus Blast's horrendous accuracy and Aura Sphere's decent power. You don't necessarily have to say that Aura Sphere is an alternate option, but it'd be beneficial to add something like "Aura Sphere isn't used despite its perfect accuracy because of its inability to OHKO __, __" or whatever. Again, I feel that this would be a really common thought a lot of less experienced players would have so it's worth explaining why with a quick sentence - it almost looks like we forgot it gets Aura Sphere.
 
On Mega Swampert's analysis, Jolly is listed as the first nature, but on Set Details, it says that Adamant is preferred nature. Also, it says that a Jolly nature can be used to outspeed Choice Scarf Keldeo, but I don't think it's that good to be even mentioned. Maybe swapping it with Choice Scarf Kartama?
 
just noticed there were a few outdated mentions on the LOKB team options

Pairing Kyurem-B with late-game cleaners is a smart idea. Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Ash-Greninja, Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, and Double Dance Landorus-T benefit from the damage Kyurem-B racks up on the opponent's team, easing their sweeps; the first three can also wallbreak on their own, making Kyurem-B's role easier to fulfill. Entry hazard removers like Mega Scizor, Mew, Zapdos, and Tapu Fini are great teammates as well, as they can Defog away the hazards that bother Kyurem-B. Mega Scizor can give Kyurem-B a safe switch in with U-turn; Mew deals with Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile; Zapdos can threaten Mega Scizor thanks to Heat Wave; and Tapu Fini can make Kyurem-B immune to status conditions for a couple of turns, thanks to Misty Terrain. Tapu Koko partners really well with Kyurem-B, as Kyurem-B breaks down many Tapu Koko checks such as Alolan Marowak, Magnezone, and Ferrothorn and Tapu Koko's U-turn and Volt Switch can help Kyurem-B switch in safely. Electric Terrain also boosts Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt, which is especially relevant for maximum Attack variants. Finally, defensive Landorus-T and Rotom-W can lure in Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Celesteela as well as Grass-types like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu for Kyurem-B and provide momentum with U-turn and Volt Switch. Magearna also provides Volt Switch support, can weaken Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, and provides a switch-in to Tapu Lele.
I think the tapu fini mentions here have gone full circle from being unviable to viable again lol. Haven't checked the rest of the analysis, might be worth a once over i guess but im too lazy rn
 
Mega Gyarados has some outdated Team Options

Mega Gyarados fits well with Pokemon that can lure common checks to it like Tangrowth, Toxapex, and Zapdos. Protean Greninja with Extrasensory works extremely well, as it can lure in Toxapex and nail Tangrowth on the switch by bluffing Battle Bond. Pokemon that can pressure the aforementioned checks are also good partners. Three attacks defensive Zapdos can pressure Toxapex and Tangrowth, as well as Steel-types like Mega Scizor, and it can help with Keldeo and Tapu Fini. Latios can also check Keldeo, pressure Toxapex, do massive damage to Tangrowth, and run Hidden Power Fire to bait in Steel-types like Mega Scizor and Magearna and take them out for Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is aided by Pokemon that heavily pressure offensive teams, which it sometimes struggles to deal with, such as offensive Shift Gear Magearna and Autotomize Celesteela. Magearna can punish checks to Gyarados with Thunderbolt, especially with an Electrium Z, while Celesteela can set up on checks to Mega Gyarados like Tangrowth.

Mega Gyarados appreciates entry hazard removal, so Tapu Fini can be good partner. Defog Latios has good offensive synergy with Gyarados and can take on Keldeo and Zapdos, pressure Toxapex, and weaken Steel-types for Gyarados. Tapu Fini also allows Mega Gyarados to avoid Scald burns with Misty Terrain and helps with Choice Scarf Keldeo. Defog Zapdos and Defog Mew are also good partners for this reason.
 
Wouldn't it make more since for breloom to run jolly and 216 speed to outrun timid magearna?? Yes theirs a drop in power, but I feel being able to outspeed an S rank mon and spore it seems pretty good. Also, I feel that a toxic orb poison heal set should be on the analysis. (Yes I know this mon is never used, and thats probably why it doesn't have a second set, but I still feel these changes should be made).
 
176768

Stone Edge hits Tornadus-T and Mega Pinsir extremely hard, prevents Volcarona from setting up a Quiver Dance on Landorus-T, and helps Landorus-T deal with Hidden Power Ice Zapdos.

Stone edge is not in this set nor is it mentioned in other options. I know sometimes that a move might be not good enough to be slashed, but better than to be put in other options. I think it should be worded "if using leftovers, one can use stone edge to hit etc........" instead of acting like it was slashed.
 
The OU analysis For Lando T says the defensive evs are to survive a +2 SD Acrobatics from Hawlucha but at +2 its actually a guaranteed OHKO with Rocks up. I think that should be changed to +1 as there are situations where you won't be intimidating Lucha like when you U turn with Koko on the switch in.
 
I'd like to make an argument for Secret Power to be mentioned in Jirachis analysis in oo or in the moves section.

Secret Power abuses grassy terrain giving Jirachi 60% chance to sleep its common switchins that don't care for paralysis, in Rotom-W and Zapdos, while still keeping its ability to paralyse outside of terrain. While it does become useless in Psychic terrain and necessitates Bulu pairing, Jirachi having something to annoy switch-ins is greatly appreciated for many teams, allowing easier rocks and Bulu also appreciates the likes of tran being para'd to outspeed. Being able to paralyse Magearna also increases Jirachis ability to check it consistently.

I know it sounds gimmicky, but I've had great success with it whilst laddering. Gonna post some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-921876657 Sleeps Rotom-W, paras Garchomp and paras M.Venu to beat it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920597421 Paras into paraflinch M.Latias

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920570341 Paras TornT allowing Bulu to beat it

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-920451194 Sleeps Magearna, gains recovery from the down turns then paras into beating it out
EDIT: Needed to add this important replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-445344
 
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Shouldn't Mega Latios run 84 Atk EVs to secure the 2HKO on AV TTar and AV Magearna after Rocks with EQ?

4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 168-198 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
84 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 180-212 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 160-190 (44 - 52.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
84 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 172-204 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

MattL

I have discovered a truly remarkable CT which this box is t-
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I think it's worth mentioning for the 4x Ice and Fire weaks how common this coverage is used due to how ubiquitous these Pokemon are. Heatran and Scizor have this in the analysis, but I don't think the others do:
"However, due to Heatran's prevalence, it can lose to Pokemon it would otherwise check, such as Mega Mawile, Tornadus-T, and Volcarona, due to coverage they run specifically for it."

"Magearna, Mega Latias, Kyurem-B, and Mega Diancie—Pokemon that Mega Scizor is supposed to check—often run Fire-type coverage moves to defeat it."

This is the sort of thing I think is worth mentioning for all of the 4x Fire and Ice weaks, from the standpoint of "this is how the metagame is and this is what you should expect to see." All of the analyses mention this 4x weakness in Checks and Counters obviously, but similarly to how Usage Tips gives advice on how to play, if you were giving advice on a mon, you would say "yeah a lot of things run Ice coverage since 4x Ice weaks are so common in OU."
--------------
On another note, I don't think Lando-T's overview does it justice.

It's like half positive and half negative (Thundurus-T and Buzzwole's OU analyses are almost more praising of them than Lando's). I know "everyone" knows how ubiquitous it is but at the very least, again from the "here is what the metagame is and what you should expect" standpoint, it seems lacking that the analysis doesn't mention that it's by far the the most common thing people slap on and, when players battle or build, they should expect to see one a lot of the time.

I didn't compile this info for the purposes of this post (I put this together previously because I was curious how long and by how much Lando's been #1 in usage for), but how often does a Pokemon do something like this:
Month1825 Lando-T Usage#2 UsageDifference#2 Pokemon
May-1942.9%31.7%11.2%Magearna
Apr-1942.0%27.9%14.1%Magearna
Mar-1945.9%28.8%17.1%Magearna
Feb-1944.6%28.1%16.5%Magearna
Jan-1944.5%26.4%18.1%Magearna
Dec-1836.5%29.7%6.8%Magearna
Nov-1838.6%29.2%9.4%Magearna
Oct-1840.8%25.0%15.8%Magearna
Sep-1840.4%26.1%14.3%Magearna
Aug-1841.6%24.6%17.0%Magearna
Jul-1840.2%25.7%14.5%Magearna
Jun-1845.5%26.7%18.8%Magearna
May-1842.5%24.5%18.0%Clefable
Apr-1846.8%24.6%22.2%Magearna
Mar-1847.1%24.7%22.4%Magearna
Feb-1846.4%24.3%22.1%Magearna
Jan-1849.1%24.9%24.2%Magearna
Dec-1754.0%27.9%26.1%Magearna
Nov-1752.2%26.7%25.5%Magearna
Oct-1749.6%25.1%24.5%Magearna
Sep-1741.9%22.5%19.4%Tapu Koko
Aug-1737.4%22.4%15.0%Magearna
Jul-1741.5%23.9%17.6%Magearna
Jun-1742.7%25.2%17.5%Zygarde
May-1741.9%23.5%18.4%Magearna
Apr-1745.4%23.9%21.5%Mega Metagross
Mar-1744.7%25.6%19.1%Mega Metagross
Feb-1742.6%35.4%7.2%Mega Metagross
Jan-1745.6%33.5%12.1%Mega Metagross
Dec-1635.1%28.6%6.5%Genesect
30 Months43.7%26.6%17.1%

I just copy and pasted this from Excel, didn't know it would format it this well automatically! But yeah, in the 1825 stats it's been #1 in usage for the past 2 and a half straight years and on average has 17.1% more usage than second place. Insane.

I know these are 1825 stats which are not quite the intended audience of the analysis, and that usage does not necessarily equate to viability, but the point is that I feel like we're kind of underselling Lando's grip on the tier.
 
SaveMeJebus You posted on the revamp, stuff takes time man
No, because Tapu Koko's Choice Specs set plays vastly different from any other set. This includes Electrium Z. If anything, it should be mentioned in the Defog sets' Set Details, but in all honesty, I don't think it's really worth mentioning at all - Tapu Koko gets much more out of other items, and its team does too if it doesn't elect to use a Z-Move.
I only mentioned it because this was posted in that thread a few months back and Electrium Z has been gaining so much popularity in the last few months, it actually surpassed the Specs variant in last month's usage statistics

Screenshot_2019-06-15-10-20-34.png
 
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Hey, I was wondering if it's necessary to change the EV spread on Scarf Lando-T to a slightly faster one. With the rise in Kommo-o usage (7.6%) in the last month, I think it's nice to have Scarf Lando-T outspeed +1 Kommo-o. You are only taking 12EVs from attack so you're not really taking away it's offensive power.
Sure Lando-T is not the best way to deal with it but it sure helps out a lot in a pinch to take out chipped Kommo-o with EQ/Explosion
 

Jordy

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For Magearna's Shift Gear and AV sets, the same quick sentence should be included in Moves to explain why Aura Sphere isn't used. I know that it previously was mentioned in the analysis and there was a general movement to remove any unnecessary or obvious information from them for concision purposes, but it's really not obvious to the average person why Focus Blast is used over Aura Sphere considering Focus Blast's horrendous accuracy and Aura Sphere's decent power. You don't necessarily have to say that Aura Sphere is an alternate option, but it'd be beneficial to add something like "Aura Sphere isn't used despite its perfect accuracy because of its inability to OHKO __, __" or whatever. Again, I feel that this would be a really common thought a lot of less experienced players would have so it's worth explaining why with a quick sentence - it almost looks like we forgot it gets Aura Sphere.
I added "It's preferred over Aura Sphere because of its superior damage output, allowing Magearna to 2HKO Ferrothorn, for example." to Shift Gear's Moves section. I also added "Despite Aura Sphere's perfect accuracy, Focus Blast is still preferred for its higher damage output against Steel-types like Heatran and Ferrothorn." to the Moves section on Magearna's Assault Vest set.

just noticed there were a few outdated mentions on the LOKB team options

Pairing Kyurem-B with late-game cleaners is a smart idea. Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Ash-Greninja, Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, and Double Dance Landorus-T benefit from the damage Kyurem-B racks up on the opponent's team, easing their sweeps; the first three can also wallbreak on their own, making Kyurem-B's role easier to fulfill. Entry hazard removers like Mega Scizor, Mew, Zapdos, and Tapu Fini are great teammates as well, as they can Defog away the hazards that bother Kyurem-B. Mega Scizor can give Kyurem-B a safe switch in with U-turn; Mew deals with Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile; Zapdos can threaten Mega Scizor thanks to Heat Wave; and Tapu Fini can make Kyurem-B immune to status conditions for a couple of turns, thanks to Misty Terrain. Tapu Koko partners really well with Kyurem-B, as Kyurem-B breaks down many Tapu Koko checks such as Alolan Marowak, Magnezone, and Ferrothorn and Tapu Koko's U-turn and Volt Switch can help Kyurem-B switch in safely. Electric Terrain also boosts Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt, which is especially relevant for maximum Attack variants. Finally, defensive Landorus-T and Rotom-W can lure in Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Celesteela as well as Grass-types like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu for Kyurem-B and provide momentum with U-turn and Volt Switch. Magearna also provides Volt Switch support, can weaken Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor with Hidden Power Fire, and provides a switch-in to Tapu Lele.
I think the tapu fini mentions here have gone full circle from being unviable to viable again lol. Haven't checked the rest of the analysis, might be worth a once over i guess but im too lazy rn
I've made a bunch of updates to Kyurem-B's analysis in general, it should look better now.

Mega Gyarados has some outdated Team Options

Mega Gyarados fits well with Pokemon that can lure common checks to it like Tangrowth, Toxapex, and Zapdos. Protean Greninja with Extrasensory works extremely well, as it can lure in Toxapex and nail Tangrowth on the switch by bluffing Battle Bond. Pokemon that can pressure the aforementioned checks are also good partners. Three attacks defensive Zapdos can pressure Toxapex and Tangrowth, as well as Steel-types like Mega Scizor, and it can help with Keldeo and Tapu Fini. Latios can also check Keldeo, pressure Toxapex, do massive damage to Tangrowth, and run Hidden Power Fire to bait in Steel-types like Mega Scizor and Magearna and take them out for Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is aided by Pokemon that heavily pressure offensive teams, which it sometimes struggles to deal with, such as offensive Shift Gear Magearna and Autotomize Celesteela. Magearna can punish checks to Gyarados with Thunderbolt, especially with an Electrium Z, while Celesteela can set up on checks to Mega Gyarados like Tangrowth.

Mega Gyarados appreciates entry hazard removal, so Tapu Fini can be good partner. Defog Latios has good offensive synergy with Gyarados and can take on Keldeo and Zapdos, pressure Toxapex, and weaken Steel-types for Gyarados. Tapu Fini also allows Mega Gyarados to avoid Scald burns with Misty Terrain and helps with Choice Scarf Keldeo. Defog Zapdos and Defog Mew are also good partners for this reason.
I deleted the second paragraph and removed the outdated mentions in the first paragraph.

Wouldn't it make more since for breloom to run jolly and 216 speed to outrun timid magearna?? Yes theirs a drop in power, but I feel being able to outspeed an S rank mon and spore it seems pretty good. Also, I feel that a toxic orb poison heal set should be on the analysis. (Yes I know this mon is never used, and thats probably why it doesn't have a second set, but I still feel these changes should be made).
Honestly, this is very nitpicky and considering that Breloom is never used, there's no need to bother.

Shouldn't Mega Latios run 84 Atk EVs to secure the 2HKO on AV TTar and AV Magearna after Rocks with EQ?

4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 168-198 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
84 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 180-212 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 160-190 (44 - 52.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
84 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 172-204 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Technically, Tyranitar could just run more HP EVs to avoid getting 2HKOed. There's also the fact that Psychic almost never 2HKOes Clefable anymore with this spread change. Because of this, I think it's better to just keep it simple.

Is the Tapu Koko analysis gonna get updated soon? The Specs set has been slowly dropping in usage in the passed few months and it seems like the information might become outdated pretty soon
I've voiced my concerns about the Tapu Koko revamp that's currently in progress in the QC chat.

I added Hidden Power Ground to Set Details.

I think it's worth mentioning for the 4x Ice and Fire weaks how common this coverage is used due to how ubiquitous these Pokemon are. Heatran and Scizor have this in the analysis, but I don't think the others do:
"However, due to Heatran's prevalence, it can lose to Pokemon it would otherwise check, such as Mega Mawile, Tornadus-T, and Volcarona, due to coverage they run specifically for it."

"Magearna, Mega Latias, Kyurem-B, and Mega Diancie—Pokemon that Mega Scizor is supposed to check—often run Fire-type coverage moves to defeat it."

This is the sort of thing I think is worth mentioning for all of the 4x Fire and Ice weaks, from the standpoint of "this is how the metagame is and this is what you should expect to see." All of the analyses mention this 4x weakness in Checks and Counters obviously, but similarly to how Usage Tips gives advice on how to play, if you were giving advice on a mon, you would say "yeah a lot of things run Ice coverage since 4x Ice weaks are so common in OU."
--------------
On another note, I don't think Lando-T's overview does it justice.

It's like half positive and half negative (Thundurus-T and Buzzwole's OU analyses are almost more praising of them than Lando's). I know "everyone" knows how ubiquitous it is but at the very least, again from the "here is what the metagame is and what you should expect" standpoint, it seems lacking that the analysis doesn't mention that it's by far the the most common thing people slap on and, when players battle or build, they should expect to see one a lot of the time.

I didn't compile this info for the purposes of this post (I put this together previously because I was curious how long and by how much Lando's been #1 in usage for), but how often does a Pokemon do something like this:
Month1825 Lando-T Usage#2 UsageDifference#2 Pokemon
May-1942.9%31.7%11.2%Magearna
Apr-1942.0%27.9%14.1%Magearna
Mar-1945.9%28.8%17.1%Magearna
Feb-1944.6%28.1%16.5%Magearna
Jan-1944.5%26.4%18.1%Magearna
Dec-1836.5%29.7%6.8%Magearna
Nov-1838.6%29.2%9.4%Magearna
Oct-1840.8%25.0%15.8%Magearna
Sep-1840.4%26.1%14.3%Magearna
Aug-1841.6%24.6%17.0%Magearna
Jul-1840.2%25.7%14.5%Magearna
Jun-1845.5%26.7%18.8%Magearna
May-1842.5%24.5%18.0%Clefable
Apr-1846.8%24.6%22.2%Magearna
Mar-1847.1%24.7%22.4%Magearna
Feb-1846.4%24.3%22.1%Magearna
Jan-1849.1%24.9%24.2%Magearna
Dec-1754.0%27.9%26.1%Magearna
Nov-1752.2%26.7%25.5%Magearna
Oct-1749.6%25.1%24.5%Magearna
Sep-1741.9%22.5%19.4%Tapu Koko
Aug-1737.4%22.4%15.0%Magearna
Jul-1741.5%23.9%17.6%Magearna
Jun-1742.7%25.2%17.5%Zygarde
May-1741.9%23.5%18.4%Magearna
Apr-1745.4%23.9%21.5%Mega Metagross
Mar-1744.7%25.6%19.1%Mega Metagross
Feb-1742.6%35.4%7.2%Mega Metagross
Jan-1745.6%33.5%12.1%Mega Metagross
Dec-1635.1%28.6%6.5%Genesect
30 Months43.7%26.6%17.1%

I just copy and pasted this from Excel, didn't know it would format it this well automatically! But yeah, in the 1825 stats it's been #1 in usage for the past 2 and a half straight years and on average has 17.1% more usage than second place. Insane.

I know these are 1825 stats which are not quite the intended audience of the analysis, and that usage does not necessarily equate to viability, but the point is that I feel like we're kind of underselling Lando's grip on the tier.
I'll try to do most of this with the rest of the QC team later.

Hey, I was wondering if it's necessary to change the EV spread on Scarf Lando-T to a slightly faster one. With the rise in Kommo-o usage (7.6%) in the last month, I think it's nice to have Scarf Lando-T outspeed +1 Kommo-o. You are only taking 12EVs from attack so you're not really taking away it's offensive power.
Sure Lando-T is not the best way to deal with it but it sure helps out a lot in a pinch to take out chipped Kommo-o with EQ/Explosion
I changed the spread to 232 Atk / 68 Def / 208 Spe for Kommo-o.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions!
 

Ophion

It’s about the journey, not the destination
is a Pre-Contributor
I think Rotom-W could use an updated EV spread of 248 HP / 164 Def / 88 SpD / 8 Spe with a Calm nature to avoid the 2HKO from Ash Greninja's Hydro Pump and Mega Latios' Psychic after Stealth Rock as well Z Magma Storm from Modest Heatran from full. This spread also outspeeds Adamant Crawdaunt and checks physical Flying- and Steel-types. Another EV spread could work but I find the current one is pretty outdated.
 

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