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Resource Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

I think Rotom-W could use an updated EV spread of 248 HP / 164 Def / 88 SpD / 8 Spe with a Calm nature to avoid the 2HKO from Ash Greninja's Hydro Pump and Mega Latios' Psychic after Stealth Rock as well Z Magma Storm from Modest Heatran from full. This spread also outspeeds Adamant Crawdaunt and checks physical Flying- and Steel-types. Another EV spread could work but I find the current one is pretty outdated.
Another EV spread I have been using has 92 EVs on Speed for outspeeding Choice Band Bulu, which I think is an important target for Volt Switch. I also agree that a more Special Defensive spread should be mentioned at least in Other Options, considering that multiple teams rely on Rotom-Wash to check Heatran.
 
In addition to the above, I think a mention of a full SpDef spread (252 HP / 200+ SpD / 56 Spe) should be mentioned OR a mention in Set Details that a mix of Defense, Special Defense and Speed investment can be run to fit on a team (you can even mention 30 IVs for underspeeding other Washtom but I think this isn’t allowed for analyses).

Speaking of Water-types, I think Slowbro is going to need some CMS. The current spread feels outdated— 96 Def EVs is no longer as relevant with Zyg being kicked upstairs. While a full revamp seems unnecessary, a change in spread as well as maybe a couple of moveslots could be helpful.

Edit: Some of the changes in earlier posts I’ve made have not been done. So you don’t have to go back and look at my posts, I’ll add the stuff here

1) In the Set Details of Bulkarona, mention Volcarona’s Speed investment can be tailored to its team and list some benchmarks (184 is the one I’m thinking of right now). In addition, mention Leftovers as an option if the team has another Z-Crystal, offering reliable recovery over the ability to take on Knock-locked CB Kartana and not being as threatening offensively.

2) Defog in Volc’s OO. Particularly Flamethrower / HP Ground / Roost / Defog. Mention this set fits only on stall, and can again be tailored to support its team.

3) Replace Toxic Spikes with HP Fire on Dual Hazards Greninja and change the set name to “Suicide Lead”.
 
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Has anyone thought about having Bullet Punch in Mega Medicham's analysis? I have seen a ton more of Bullet Punch on ladder and I feel like it is an incredibly viable option - double priority offers much more utility in cleaning things like Greninja, Hawlucha, and Mega Diancie that Medicham usually has to switch vs.
 
Has anyone thought about having Bullet Punch in Mega Medicham's analysis? I have seen a ton more of Bullet Punch on ladder and I feel like it is an incredibly viable option - double priority offers much more utility in cleaning things like Greninja, Hawlucha, and Mega Diancie that Medicham usually has to switch vs.
Bullet Punch is listed multiple times in Medi's analysis, look under the "Moves" section.
 
I meant in the moveset as a slash next to Ice Punch, sorry
That would be a bit much seeing how Ice Punch hits the omnipresent Ground-types as well as the very popular Mega-Latis who would otherwise wall you. Even Zapdos and Helmet Tornadus become a headache to deal with while Bullet Punch doesnt accomplish nearly as much.

Moreover, if youd like a double priority Fighting-Mega to take on offensive builds you are more often than not better off using Mega-Lopunny so I really think a small mention should suffice.
 

lyd

my rhymes so unspeakable
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basically i dont have time for analyses anymore and koko changed a lot so it would have to be rewritten and updated and everything. so it was reassigned. also please dont call LL mannat unironically lol. its like calling me locri unironically lmfao.
 
I'd like to make an argument for WishMence to replace the current Mence set on-site.

DDance Mence is completely outclassed by Dragonite, Gyarados and offensive Landorus-Therian as a Flyinium cleaner, as well as Mega Gyarados and Zard-X as an offensive Dragon Dance setup sweeper. However, WishPass Salamence sets Salamence apart in the OU metagame; it faces competition with other WishPassers like Jirachi, Chansey and Clefable, but is able to set itself apart from the pack thanks to an amazing defensive ability in Intimidate and the ability to check Fire-types (Heatran, Volcarona), Water-types (Mega Swampert, Rotom-Wash) and Steel-types (Celesteela, Ferrothorn). Heatran is a pretty noteworthy check in particular since 2/3 of the common WishPassers in OU struggle breaking past it, and the only one of the 3 that don't struggle with Tran doesn't even run Wish that often.

Additionally, Salamence has a decent support movepool that includes phazing, Toxic and Defog. In terms of stats, Salamence has comparable defenses to Clefable (95 / 80 / 80 for Mence vs 95 / 73 / 90 for Clefable) giving them similar calcs for common threats in the meta and Salamence has very strong offensive stats to build off of preventing it from totally becoming passive.

Here's a preliminary moveset that I was labbing, it's currently got some unusual options that you'd probably axe from the main set in a real analysis, but the point of their inclusion is only to demonstrate that Mence HAS those options, not that they should be the main options:

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 212 Def / 48 SpD
Impish / Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Earthquake / Flamethrower / Rock Tomb
- Defog / Roar / Toxic
  • Earthquake allows Salamence to threaten Heatran and Jirachi with a 2HKO at worst
  • Flamethrower lets Mence chip Celesteela and 2HKO Ferro (should be ran with Bold obviously)
  • Rock Tomb lets Mence support their team by slowing down setup sweepers like Zard-X for something to revenge kill as well as allowing Mence to OHKO offensive Volcarona / 2HKO defensive Volcarona making it even more of a reliable check
  • Defog is for hazard control
  • Roar phazes setup sweepers
  • Toxic is for defensive threats like Unaware Clef which will threaten them throughout the game
  • 248 HP maximizes Wish recovery while also taking minimal damage from rocks
  • 212 Def and a defensive nature maximizes Salamence's physical defense as much as it can
  • 48 SpD lets Salamence live one hit (at full HP) from +1 Psychium Volcarona

I genuinely believe that this is the superior Salamence set to the current one featured in Salamence's analysis and I hope it'll be considered for review. Cheers, frens :]
 
DDance Mence is completely outclassed by Dragonite, Gyarados and offensive Landorus-Therian as a Flyinium cleaner
Not saying that DDance Mence is any good, but i'm not sure it's strictly outclassed by Dnite as a flyinium cleaner. Mence main appeal being that it outspeeds scarf Lele after one DDance. Anyway Dnite is kinda trash so that's not saying much.

Now for what brings me here :



Ditto @ Focus Sash
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I think sash should get a mention in the other options. Even if it's just to explain that scarf is better most of the time. I've used it with decent success on NU stall and it has definitely qualities in OU too.

I know most people say sash ditto is trash, but you usually hear that after they get reverse swept by this thing. Ditto is mostly played on stall/Semi-Stall teams that happen to be good at keeping hazards off the field. So keeping your sash in MU where you really need it is not that hard.

First this set can actually check lucha : you sack something to the +2 lucha, get ditto in, they acro, you acro and you get your unburden boost to go on a reverse sweep. If rocks are up or if you got any kind of chip on the opposing lucha, this can actually work VS screens :

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 96 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And appart from that, being non choice locked is super nice when copying things like Zard X : When Zard X faces phat, it can often set up, pick a kill and dance around the choice locked ditto, rince repeat. Sash prevents that and will usually pick a surprise kill on the second turn it's in.

Mawile-M is a bit harder to force too set up, but you can go on the same kind of mini-sweep. Part due to the extra turn sash gives you, part due to not being choice locked and being able to surprise sucker punch.

There are obviously ton of other examples : Kommo-O, Kart, Mage, basically most set up sweepers. Which is what ditto is supposed to answer in the first place. Sometime people think about stall like it's gonna keep all of its 6 during the whole match. But stall still win a lot of matches while being down to 4 or even 3 mons. So the threat removal of these mini-sweeps is kind of a big deal i think.

Not to mention sash works VS TR while scarf doesn't.

Last quality of being non choice locked is that you don't need to get your scaf knocked off to start really messing with opposing balance and stall. In these MU you don't need to bluff scarf as much anyway, which is really easy to do in other MU.
 

Tramuntana

formerly SJMistery
Not saying that DDance Mence is any good, but i'm not sure it's strictly outclassed by Dnite as a flyinium cleaner. Mence main appeal being that it outspeeds scarf Lele after one DDance. Anyway Dnite is kinda trash so that's not saying much.

Now for what brings me here :



Ditto @ Focus Sash
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform

I think sash should get a mention in the other options. Even if it's just to explain that scarf is better most of the time. I've used it with decent success on NU stall and it has definitely qualities in OU too.

I know most people say sash ditto is trash, but you usually hear that after they get reverse swept by this thing. Ditto is mostly played on stall/Semi-Stall teams that happen to be good at keeping hazards off the field. So keeping your sash in MU where you really need it is not that hard.

First this set can actually check lucha : you sack something to the +2 lucha, get ditto in, they acro, you acro and you get your unburden boost to go on a reverse sweep. If rocks are up or if you got any kind of chip on the opposing lucha, this can actually work VS screens :

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 96 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And appart from that, being non choice locked is super nice when copying things like Zard X : When Zard X faces phat, it can often set up, pick a kill and dance around the choice locked ditto, rince repeat. Sash prevents that and will usually pick a surprise kill on the second turn it's in.

Mawile-M is a bit harder to force too set up, but you can go on the same kind of mini-sweep. Part due to the extra turn sash gives you, part due to not being choice locked and being able to surprise sucker punch.

There are obviously ton of other examples : Kommo-O, Kart, Mage, basically most set up sweepers. Which is what ditto is supposed to answer in the first place. Sometime people think about stall like it's gonna keep all of its 6 during the whole match. But stall still win a lot of matches while being down to 4 or even 3 mons. So the threat removal of these mini-sweeps is kind of a big deal i think.

Not to mention sash works VS TR while scarf doesn't.

Last quality of being non choice locked is that you don't need to get your scaf knocked off to start really messing with opposing balance and stall. In these MU you don't need to bluff scarf as much anyway, which is really easy to do in other MU.
Dragonite is severely underrated. His defensive Dragon Dance sets win pretty much on their own in many matchups. Yes, he is really hard to use compared to the meta threats, but that's because those meta threats require no support, strategy nor setup to work beyond just mashing the attack button, wich by the way it's really sad that Pokemon has devolved into this.

As for Ditto, it is viable to run Sash to improve the chances to sweep, but then you become much more vulnerable to hazards, you are unable to use him to scout movesets and pivot, and you loose any chances at beating certain pokemon that can either capitalize on your lower bulk and/or bypass the sash with indirect damage, priority or multi-hit moves
 

Jordy

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We really don't have a reason to believe that Wish Salamence is more viable than Dragon Dance Salamence right now, so I don't really see why it should get a set. Also, Focus Sash Ditto is terrible, we're not putting it on the analysis.
 
For the above, would offensive Heatran also be worth mentioning or is it only in the best case scenario (Ttar is at full and Tran is at like 50-60)?

Can we also mention on the AV Tang analysis that 20 Def EVs survive a +1 Breakneck Blitz from Kartana? (S/o to MegaStarUniverse for the idea)
 

Ophion

It’s about the journey, not the destination
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I think the Rotom-W analysis could use some updates with what it can check (Z Fly Gyara, Mamoswine, and Pinsir aren’t that big right now, at least not compared to other stuff like Z Fly Landorus, Mega Garchomp if the Rotom is the correct spread, and rain as a whole pretty much). The EV spread(s) need fixing too. Wiki should have max hp max spdef calm for sponging Ash Greninja and rain while Leftovers should have a different spread that’s better for the current metagame. (And mention Defog is best on Wiki and TWave can cripple things like Megs Charizard X). Also, team options could be expanded a bit in terms of number of members. Finally, z move sets should have a proper spot on the analysis with them seeing so much use between SPL, WCop, and especially OLT (and playoffs as well). If a full revamp could happen, that’d be great but if not, some key updates would be good too. If there’s any consideration for a Rotom revamp before the gen ends, I’d be happy to do it.
 
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Heika

formerly HKT
I'd like to Point out something in Kyurem Black analysis:
A Naive nature allows Kyurem-B to Speed tie with Tapu Lele as well as outspeed Landorus-T, Adamant Mimikyu, and Heatran
A Naive nature allows Kyurem-B to outspeed Jolly Landorus-T, Timid Heatran, and Adamant Mimikyu.
This suggest that Kyurem need a +Speed nature to outspeed Heatran, while the truth is that KyuB only needs 212Speed neutral to outpace Timid Heatran.
Thus, I believe, this is just missleading.
 
Sorry for double post but this is just weird.
192789


192790


Why are these 2 different sets? You might say "Because there different Z Moves." But on the Fightinium Z set we have this.
192792

It feels like Fightinium Z was surposed to replace Psychium Z but it never happened.

Solution: Rename "Fightinium Z" to "Calm Mind + Z Move" and remove the Psychium Z set and slash it on the Calm Mind + Z Move set.
 
Sorry for double post but this is just weird.
View attachment 192789

View attachment 192790

Why are these 2 different sets? You might say "Because there different Z Moves." But on the Fightinium Z set we have this.
View attachment 192792
It feels like Fightinium Z was surposed to replace Psychium Z but it never happened.

Solution: Rename "Fightinium Z" to "Calm Mind + Z Move" and remove the Psychium Z set and slash it on the Calm Mind + Z Move set.
My understanding is that though these are similar looking sets, they have different functions and fit with different teams (Psychium needs something to take out steels with, but hits harder with the Z-move, whereas Steelium is more independent but lacks the total nuke), hence the different listings. Admittedly, it needs a cleanup, not only because of the highlighted problems, but also the penultimate sentence.
 

Jordy

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CB Tar: Who even uses reg Latios and Alolawak anymore - perhaps replace with Mega Latias and Tornadus-T?
I updated these mentions.

Can we also mention on the AV Tang analysis that 20 Def EVs survive a +1 Breakneck Blitz from Kartana? (S/o to MegaStarUniverse for the idea)
I slightly altered the EV spread to 252 HP / 12 Def / 244 SpD. This still allows Tangrowth to survive a +1 Breakneck Blitz from Kartana, as well as 2 Ice Punches from Mega Swampert after Stealth Rock damage. 248 HP EVs don't hit a Regenerator number so I'm not sure why it was there to begin with.

I'd like to Point out something in Kyurem Black analysis:

This suggest that Kyurem need a +Speed nature to outspeed Heatran, while the truth is that KyuB only needs 212Speed neutral to outpace Timid Heatran.
Thus, I believe, this is just missleading.
I have removed both the Heatran mentions.

On the Tornadus-T analysis.

This should mention Static can punish any Knock Off or U-Turn Tornadus-T does to it.
Static is mentioned now.

Sorry for double post but this is just weird.

Why are these 2 different sets? You might say "Because there different Z Moves." But on the Fightinium Z set we have this.

It feels like Fightinium Z was surposed to replace Psychium Z but it never happened.

Solution: Rename "Fightinium Z" to "Calm Mind + Z Move" and remove the Psychium Z set and slash it on the Calm Mind + Z Move set.
The intention was always for the Fightinium Z analysis to replace the Psychium Z set, but one of us probably forgot to remove the Psychium Z set after uploading it. It's fixed now, though; my apologies that it went unnoticed for so long.
 
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Tramuntana

formerly SJMistery
We really don't have a reason to believe that Wish Salamence is more viable than Dragon Dance Salamence right now, so I don't really see why it should get a set. Also, Focus Sash Ditto is terrible, we're not putting it on the analysis.
I never said to make it into an analysis. I was talking about an "other options" quick comment. Sash CAN work in certain scenarios. Scarf is UNDOUBTEDLY better for anything other than trolling a Stall team, but the Sash and even the Assault Vest could have utility for countering specific pokemon with adequate team support (namely paralysis).

As for Wish Salamence, it COULD work. I have seen people run a defensive Defogger set efficiently, it can't be much different than that.
 

Jordy

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I never said to make it into an analysis. I was talking about an "other options" quick comment. Sash CAN work in certain scenarios. Scarf is UNDOUBTEDLY better for anything other than trolling a Stall team, but the Sash and even the Assault Vest could have utility for countering specific pokemon with adequate team support (namely paralysis).

As for Wish Salamence, it COULD work. I have seen people run a defensive Defogger set efficiently, it can't be much different than that.
I never said anything about giving Focus Sash Ditto a seperate analysis either, I simply said that we're not putting it on the analysis, that includes not putting it in Other Options.

Whether a Pokemon COULD work does not matter. The sets we put on analyses aren't theorized, but proven to work at high level play.
 
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On the topic of Ditto, should it get a revamp? I feel like we should expand on its Team Options—as the meta has developed, new sweepers have emerged which Ditto cannot beat. Mentions of teammates that beat these sweepers— particularly Toxapex for Reuni and Zor, as well something for Gliscor— could help newer players. It should also be mentioned that Steels susceptible to Magnezone are good partners for HP Ground Ditto.

Edit: I’ve been wanting to push this for a while now, but I think Baneful Bunker on Toxapex should be the first mention in Moves that aren’t on the set, if not be a slash itself. Baneful Bunker lets Pex do two very important things. First, the ability to scout Choiced variants of Ash-Greninja, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele and Tapu Bulu, and protect itself/mitigate damage from Z-moves such as Z-Dig Gren or Z-Psychic Volcarona. It also lets Pex punish mons that contact with poison, which is great because these mons lack strong recovery options. This can be especially crucial against Medicham or Swampert which can roll over balance teams.
 
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