Unpopular opinions

[Divine Retribution]

Shadow tag is an overrated ability. It's okay but nothing crazy. It has many counters. Only effective against hyper offense teams.

Some opinions are unpopular for a good reason.

Also, saying Gothitelle only works against HO teams betrays a fundamental lack of understanding on how it was actually used. I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe anyone could have played during Shadow Tag meta at any reasonably high level of play and come to the conclusion that Gothitelle only puts in work against offensive teams.

 

[Rapti]

Remember when Pokemon mostly used berries as their fictional foods? How every berry had a description of an either unexpected taste or unusual feature, especially for a fruit/vegetable?
Remember when berries were also stand ins for vegetables?

now we have realistic apples and potatoes

woot -_-

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I remember when Dugtrio got Suspect Tested in Gen 7, people on the Suspect Ladders were trying out Diglett and Trapinch, and despite their even-more-garbage stats, managing to get many of the same jobs done because removing the ability to switch altogether neuters almost every playstyle on principle.

Reminds me of Big Yellow's video about banned strategies in past Pokémon gens (I think?), where he said Sand Veil was so busted in Gen 3 that people used Cacnea alongside Cacturne. Thank dog there are no longer any Pokémon whose only ability is Sand Veil/Snow Cloak.

 

[Magcargo]

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are abilities that are more broken the higher your creativity is. When they were legal, I didn't think much of them since Gothitelle and Dugtrio are such underwhelming Pokemon on their own + I thought they were useless outside of their highly specialized use cases. However, in a game of inches like Pokemon, death being completely inescapable for the other Pokemon is such a powerful tool. You basically put the opponent's Pokemon in a major checkmate position in many scenarios, not just the highly specialized use cases you may be using it for. Sure, the sash Dugtrio your running might mainly be used to take out Heatran and Tyranitar, but you can just as easily use it to take down a weakened Garchomp or Politoed. There are a lot of oppurtunities that arise in a match where you can abuse Shadow Tag and Arena Trap's ability to limit the opponents options to effectively guarantee outcomes in your favor rather than play the same guessing game that many other Pokemon face. That's what makes it gamebreaking

Also debuffs become ridiculously busted w/ Shadow Tag / Arena Trap. In VGC / FFA random battles, when the opponent has one / two Pokemon remaining, I normally spam it with as many debuffs as I possibly can because there is no possible way for it to recover from that even if it somehow wins the current match up its in. Now, debuffs aren't exactly OP in the same way as they are in those formats / conditions, but they might be even worse. Due to the high PP of Confide + Rest wasting turns, Goth is basically able to Stall out most defensive Uber Pokemon's PP by continually debuffing them and Resting afterwards .

 

[Shedinja-43152]

Is Shadow Tag now baned? That is so sad.
I had a Wobbuffet and a Gothitele with this hability in my team. First go with Wobbuffet for the enemy use some status move, then I use encore. Then I switch to Gothitele with this Shadow Tag and use trick with a Choice Scarf. GG, the enemy is forever locked in a status move. So I used 4 calm mind, Trick Room and start to spawn Psychic.

 

[pika pal]

Is Shadow Tag now baned? That is so sad.
I had a Wobbuffet and a Gothitele with this hability in my team. First go with Wobbuffet for the enemy use some status move, then I use encore. Then I switch to Gothitele with this Shadow Tag and use trick with a Choice Scarf. GG, the enemy is forever locked in a status move.

Tactics like this are why Shadow Tag was banned. It was considered to lock out fundamental gameplay mechanics to the point of overcentralization and favoring the random match-up between teams vulnerable to Trapping (like Stall or Bulky Offense) rather than the skill of the players building and running a team.

 

[Arkm]

This is flatly untrue in practice. Goth is able to come in and trap whatever has just KOed another Pokémon on its team, because obviously real battling is done in Set Mode. If you have one or even two Goth answers on your team like Scizor and Incineroar, the presence of Goth in team preview still forces you to only KO opposing Pokémon with those direct answers to Goth. This puts you at a huge disadvantage since your opponent can KO your Pokémon with whatever Pokémon they have without having to worry about that.

Shadow Tag isn't broken on paper, but is absolutely broken in practice. That Gothitelle, which has pretty awful stats, is legitimately viable in ubers more than proves that. A counter is worthless when you can't switch it in.

Any good OU team would have 2-3 mons with u-turn, volt switch or flip turn, 1-2 ghost/dark plus if shadow tag is legal, then a shadow tag pokemon. That's atleast 4 mons which Gothitella can't trap. The other two mons u should not put on the field till Gothitella is out.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

That's atleast 4 mons which Gothitella can't trap. The other two mons u should not put on the field till Gothitella is out.

1) Never sending out 1/3 of your team until Gothitelle is out simply is not an option for the vast majority of teams. There are a ton of threatening offensive Pokemon in the tier, and teams will need to use Pokemon which aren't trap resistant to cover them. Oh yeah, some of those threatening offensive Pokemon can also U-Turn into Gothitelle as you switch into your check to just freely eliminate them.

2) Having a pivot move does not guarantee that you can escape Gothitelle unscathed. Choice locked attackers with pivot moves will be easily trapped if they lock themselves into a non-pivot move that cannot KO Gothitelle quickly enough. Additionally, defensively oriented Pokemon with pivot moves are still vulnerable to the Scarf Trick, as they will be unable to escape before they are given the Choice Scarf. This severely reduces their ability to function defensively and makes it possible to trap them in subsequent switches.

3) CM + Rest often lets it force additional KOs on top of whatever it trapped (which is in pretty much any situation where your opponent doesn't still have a Dark-type). Having a key defensive Pokemon just eliminated for free after a single predict is bad enough; being forced to lose one of more additional Pokemon to remove the +6/+6 Gothitelle is absurdly unhealthy.

Please, for the love of god, actually look at what Gothitelle did in Gens 6 and 7 before it was banned. There's a reason why it was banned before even Dynamax at the start of Gen 8.

 

[Sonikku A]

Remember when Pokemon mostly used berries as their fictional foods? How every berry had a description of an either unexpected taste or unusual feature, especially for a fruit/vegetable?
Remember when berries were also stand ins for vegetables?

now we have realistic apples and potatoes

woot -_-

Could be worse
Gen 5 eng dub calls literally any obvious fruit a berry, and any obvious vegetable a veggie

I mean A N Y, so apples are berry, carrots are just veggie

 

[Divine Retribution]

Any good OU team would have 2-3 mons with u-turn, volt switch or flip turn, 1-2 ghost/dark plus if shadow tag is legal, then a shadow tag pokemon. That's atleast 4 mons which Gothitella can't trap. The other two mons u should not put on the field till Gothitella is out.

Can I ask a serious question? Did you actually play competitively before Shadow Tag was banned or are you theorymonning out your ass right now?

 

[Arkm]

Can I ask a serious question? Did you actually play competitively before Shadow Tag was banned or are you theorymonning out your ass right now?

In Gen 6 ubers, Mega gengar was pretty common but i never found it to be OP. I mean it was good but nothing crazy. I never played competitive before gen 6 so probably not.

 

[Ironmage]

I'm not really sure that a tier with a 770 BST Ground-type on nearly every team being able to (barely) handle a poison type with Shadow Tag is evidence that the ability isn't massively powerful.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

I'm not really sure that a tier with a 770 BST Ground-type on nearly every team being able to (barely) handle a poison type with Shadow Tag is evidence that the ability isn't massively powerful.

I'm not super familiar with Mega Gengar in Generation VI but when trapping a specific Pokémon, you don't leave your trapper to get KOed by an opponent, do you?
When your Mega Gengar faces Primal Groudon, and Primal Groudon's current HP isn't in the range of a guaranteed KO by M-Gengar's moves, what do you do? Stay there and get KOed?
...
Oh crap. I just remembered this hard-hitting (170 SpA), fast (130 Spe) Mega Evolution also has access to Destiny Bond and Perish Song. No wonder it sees play in Ubers. It's like a faster, less reactive Wobbuffet that deals damage on would-be switch-ins.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag was also the subject of a great deal of discussion about a potential ban to AG in XY and SM, and Shadow Tag was actually banned from Ubers in SS despite its most threatening user no longer being present. I suspect the lack of bans in XY/SM are owed largely to the fact that far fewer players play old tiers but I'm not an Ubers player so I could be mistaken in that regard. I don't see anything in the reasoning behind the SS suspect that couldn't also be applied to the XY and SM metagames though; nothing fundamentally changed for Shadow Tag and it doesn't seem to me like the SS metagame is somehow more susceptible to it.

 

[Ironmage]

I would count the removal of Pursuit as a notable change in Shadow Tag's favour since all mons with it are weak to Dark and it being gone allows the trapper to choose their matchups even more than previously.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I would count the removal of Pursuit as a notable change in Shadow Tag's favour since all mons with it are weak to Dark and it being gone allows the trapper to choose their matchups even more than previously.

That's fair, but Tyranitar and Deo-A are the only remotely common Pursuit users in Ubers (Mega Gengar's SM article also mentions Marshadow but I don't think I've ever seen it carry Pursuit and it isn't listed on its analysis even as an other option), and in the case of Deo-A (and Marshadow) Pursuit only forces a 50/50. I would be dubious that Pursuit is enough of a balancing factor to justify Shadow Tag being healthy in XY/SM but as I said I'm not really an Ubers player, and this probably isn't the thread for that discussion anyways.

 

[Shedinja-43152]

What I don't understand why Gengar's Shadow Tag is banned meanwhile Dugtrio's Arena Trap is allowed, and both do exactly the same thing.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Arena Trap affects less Pokémon, and also it's banned in every OM.

 

[Rapti]

Could be worse
Gen 5 eng dub calls literally any obvious fruit a berry, and any obvious vegetable a veggie

I mean A N Y, so apples are berry, carrots are just veggie

Yeah no, take it from someone that's not from the anglosphere; dubs never count

no, not even then, especially in Pokemon

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Remember when Pokemon mostly used berries as their fictional foods? How every berry had a description of an either unexpected taste or unusual feature, especially for a fruit/vegetable?
Remember when berries were also stand ins for vegetables?

now we have realistic apples and potatoes

woot -_-

I love Berries too. They are not forgotten, but I feel like they are pushed out of the spotlight. The Berry descriptions from RSE were an incredibly fun read, I loved the idea some of the rarest Berries are flat-out legendary.

Liechi Berry

A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sea.

*old man voice* Back in my day, Liechi Berries were only found on Mirage Island.

Ganlon Berry

A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the land.

A counterpart of Liechi? Ganlon is Groudon, Liechi is Kyogre? I sea...

Salac Berry

A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of the sky.

Told you they are Legendary! Salac is clearly Rayquaza in edible form!

Petaya Berry

A mysterious Berry. It is rumored to contain the power of all living things.

Apparently Petaya is Mew. Mew!

Apicot Berry

A very mystifying Berry. No telling what may happen or how it can be used.

This confirms the player character is an über genius for finding out how the Apicot Berry should be used.

Fun fact: in Generation III, the Ganlon, Petaya, Apicot, and Salac Berries could only be found in Orre and were the most expensive Mt. Battle items.
My favorite, however, has to be the Starf Berry.

Starf Berry

So strong, it was abandoned at the world's edge. Considered a mirage.

"So strong"? How could a Berry be "strong"? Is it a weapon of mass destruction or something?

I love this entry because it implies a goddamn Berry is equal to a weapon of mass destruction. It's so absurd, I love it!

In conclusion, bring back the Berry Pots.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I loved the idea some of the rarest Berries are flat-out legendary.

Same, which makes it extremely underwhelming to just find them lying on the ground in later games.

Also I could buy the idea that Scott was somehow able to obtain a Starf Berry (if the owner of the Battle Frontier isn't well-connected enough, who is?) but then X and Y just have some random little girl give them to you. Lame.

Maybe she's some sort of child prodigy...

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

but then X and Y just have some random little girl give them to you. Lame.

Obviously, Kalos is at the world's edge.

 

[ZettaiRyouiki]

Obviously, Kalos is at the world's edge.

Weell, not Kalos, but Paldea might have an equivalent to this:
Finisterre.

 

[CPU]

Honestly, I like Slow Start, because I find the juxtaposition of "12-foot alien robot colossus thing" and "makes sculptures seemingly just for fun and has a hard time getting up in the morning" to be one of the funniest things Pokemon has ever done.

Mostly quoting this just to have something topical to reply to, but my "fix" to slow start is to make it gradually wear off across the 5 turns it takes. If it's at 50% power/speed turn 1, it would be at 60% during turn 2, 70% turn 3, and so on until the 5th turn ends and it's finally at full power.

Still limiting but at least it gets some teeth the longer it gets to stay in.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

*suggests a Slow Start buff*

Hear me out.
What if instead of nerfing Regigigas, Slow Start gradually buffs the Pokémon?
As in, after one turn, its Attack and Speed are increased by 10%, after two turns, it's 20%, and so on with a 50% increase cap? Would that be too broken?