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Serious US Election Thread (read post #2014)

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The problem with voting for a third party candidate is that you're going to be voting for someone who's dumb enough to run on a third party ticket. There's a reason why the anti-establishment candidates Trump and Sanders are running within their parties - that's the only way they stand a chance. If Trump were, say, running as an independent or a Reform Party candidate (and he actually has run as a Reform Party candidate before), he would be laughed out of the race. His high poll numbers would be disregarded since it would be a foregone conclusion that he wouldn't stand a chance in the general.

TLDR: Don't run on a third party ticket.

That is exactly why I when someone says "if you don't like the system, or their rules, then make your own party". Because, like do these morons have any idea how difficult it is to win on a third party ticket? They get like zero media coverage, and name the last instance where a third party candidate has been allowed in a public televised debate, which is essential to getting your message across, and getting the votes of like minded people. There just aren't enough conspiracy theorists or people fed up enough to say "fuck it, I don't give a shit if my vote doesn't make a difference, because it probably isn't going to change anyways" or "I'm sticking to my beliefs no matter what, so to hell with choosing the lesser of two evils"!

Maybe now a big stink has been made out of money in politics and the court system (I can't believe that "Mr. Affluenza" Couch still isn't receiving jail time for the shit he's pulled!), as well as the primary voting process, it will finally wake up enough Americans, and entice them to form an "American Spring". Because folks, if they can do it, so can we. And by Arceus (or God, if you want), we'd better do something soon, because I'm not certain the people currently truly in charge will just allow us to force the corruption out of our government, and say GG.

In the meantime, my father has explained that even if I have enough evidence that indicates that Hillary is indeed crooked, that I should vote for her. He has a good point that she will appoint at least two liberal judges. Now what is important about this is that this means that Citizens United will be overturned. This could and should create a precedent that will help activist movements get money out of politics and the court systems, and kick the current PTB out of Capitol Hill. Republicans kicking and screaming notwithstanding. I'd love to see them kick and scream while liberal Supreme Court appointees are rammed down their throat! THAT would make checking her name every bit worthwhile, unless she is as bad as the conspiracy nuts say she is...

I still think that using Twitter, the Internet, and blogs is a good way to spread the word, and formulate plans to protest against money in politics and the court system. For those of you who share my sentiments (I'm guessing Mertyville is with me?), I think that now is as good a time as any.
 
They get like zero media coverage, and name the last instance where a third party candidate has been allowed in a public televised debate, which is essential to getting your message across, and getting the votes of like minded people.

That's easy, if like me you're old enough to remember the Clinton era: Ross Perot, the founder of the Reform Party (though he did not found it until after his landmark 1992 run, which was arguably the most successful third party run at the presidency in the past century).

Unfortunately the 2000 election really changed the game for third parties, though. In particular, the Democratic Party establishment was so bitter after Gore's loss that they painted Nader as a "spoiler" who ruined Gore's chances by luring away progressive voters, rather than attacking Gore for failing to engage those same voters. That label immediately gets applied to anyone with any kind of momentum that is thinking of running on a third party ticket nowadays. The real value in third parties SHOULD be that they keep establishment party candidates from solely focusing on moderate voters in a general election, but in practice that hasn't been the case in the past decade and a half.

And you know what? I'm no better, because despite the fact that I was not a fan of Bill Clinton's politics and am not currently a fan of Hilary Clinton's politics, there is no way in hell I'm voting for anyone else come November (barring some kind of miracle that puts Sanders on the ballot for the Democratic Party). I'll be voting for Senator Sanders in the primary on Tuesday, but I'll still take a centrist pro-trade candidate like Secretary Clinton over anyone currently running on the Republican Party ticket.
 
not sure what all the hype is about sanders tbh at least from where i stand he comes across as just a populist with no real substance and his economic policies just display a frightening degree of ignorance in the field
 
not sure what all the hype is about sanders tbh at least from where i stand he comes across as just a populist with no real substance and his economic policies just display a frightening degree of ignorance in the field

He's a candidate who has genuinely leftist policies (unlike the Clintons and Obama of recent history, and most definitely unlike the Republicans the same period), whose views have been built on a liberal framework and have been incredibly consistent, who does not receive donations from corporations, who recognizes and wishes to address issues few others cared to properly do (wealthy inequality, poverty and crime, costs of higher education, single-payer healthcare, campaign finance) in a more proper way.

Do you really think there's no reason such a candidate would be appealing to liberals, or younger voters, or those burdened by the issues he addresses? Or were you hyperbolic?

edit: Didn't notice "populist". Are you using that word for negative effect--i.e., Sanders says what people want to hear?

Because if so, that's wrong. Sanders has had the same views long before his presidential run. Was he being populist in 1991 when he was arguing against extensions of capital punishment? He held identical views later on crime and punishment, like in 1994 and obviously in the current election...

Was he being populist when he was criticism the accumulation of wealth while the rest become poorer in the 1980s? And he's held the same views until now.

Clinton is being a populist, assuming the negative usage of the term, adopting Sander's policies despite being historically antagonistic of them. But the adoption is superficial and will be abandoned if she's elected...

I do think some of Sander's economic policies most probably won't be effective (edit: was "ineffective"), but it seems several of his policies are most definitely effective. One of the most necessary is a single-payer healthcare system, and he is clear on increasing the Medicare tax in order to pay for it. And despite the tax, health care costs for Americans (middle-class and lower) would be reduced without an impact on our budget--and now millions and millions of Americans would have coverage and the work force would be healthier.
 
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Because he conveys the exact feeling of voters. Of young people and others who are fed up or disillusioned with the system where the current other lineup of candidates either don't quite get the issues that are important to them, or are too much of a right wing nut to place any faith in, and where the billionaire class seems gets everything and more, while everyone else is left increasingly with the leftovers.

I agree that if the rich are getting richer, and everyone else is getting poorer, something needs to be done. And I also agree that if we don't do something, climate change will do as much if not more damage than terrorism could ever do.

I agree that free college tuition is a high hope, and he should be more realistic by maybe planning to lower tuition fees, and breaking up the banks isn't quite as important as just making sure that they can never, ever do what they did in 2008, and if their executives try, it should be made clear that while their banks might be too big to fail, they are not, and will be facing jail time, and their riches and assets auctioned off to bail out their corporations to keep the economy from melting down if necessary. Sure the taxpayers got their $500 Billion back, but this is the second time something like this happened, and it can't be tolerated. I'm kinda on the fence about single payer health care, because I can't begin to pretend to know anything about it. All I know is what I've heard, and that is it has worked in other countries.

And getting money out of the presidential election is just the start. If I had my way, campaign contributions would be stopped on all levels of government and the court system.
 
the problem is if u ask anyone but the most favorable of favorable economists about sanders plans they basically say "no fucking way we're paying for that, yep nope that wont work, etc" unless you're willing to face major tax increases on maybe not the villain class. Maybe it'll be the people you're trying to help. and maybe in the great movement of the money from the top 1% to everyone else you'll be taking with it some sacrifices of personal liberty for uncertain gain in having a govt spend your money when theyve proven they are not the most skilled at that. Raising the minimum wage slowly tends not to raise prices, but a spike in it might - and a removal of trade agreements near certainly will. maybe it's a little frightening so many are willing to stare down the barrel of having less money to spend on things that are more expensive in the hopes an efficient u.s govt will cause them to break better than even overall, despite the fact "efficient u.s govt" teeters very close to an oxymoron, despite the fact single-payer would require the disbanding of private health insurance companies ("medicare for all") which seems potentially complicated and constitutionally dicey and it's probably not a good sign that bernie cannot well articulate the breakup plan for companies who already have semi-breakup legislation in place much less a field he would be pioneering breakups of in the u.s, ignoring the fact he cannot write legislation and do this via executive fiat. his policies are dubiously feasible and arguably bad; his appeal is to the heart, as when a current u.s voter hears a politician, she hears the same voice (often with the same surname) shes heard before, and bernie is different, he's real and you can trust him that he wants what he says he does - which sounds pretty good when it's going to college for free (simplified but) and having healthcare for everyone and breaking up banks like they are towers of gold-plated legos. but that's why hes called a populist - he's genuine image over realistic policy substance
 
Single payer would not require private insurance to disband, fyi. This is a big misconception. Around 10% of British citizens pay for private health insurance and care. Just like people today get better access to/quality healthcare if they can afford it, people could continue buying extra private insurance. This is true across every country with socialized medicine that I can think of.
 
it might or might not; as i recall the canadian system has no private insurance (though recently some private hospitals)

more to the point anyone working in health insurance (or at a hospital processing health insurance claims) loses their job. what is done about that?
 
Don't even want to take the 15 seconds to check wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#Private_sector They have it.

Anyway, I actually work with health insurance claims. And let me just say that while the data I receive from CMS (Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services) is messier than the data I receive from commercial health insurance providers, CMS has never tried to cheat. Multiple commercial providers I've received data from have tried to fudge the numbers and we've had to call them out.

There's this (reasonably accurate) perception that government run services are inefficient. But for whatever reason there's not the same negative perception about private insurance companies being lying pieces of shit.
 
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the point is not so much that it's literally disallowed so much as generally foregone. 10% of people means 90% of jobs are lost; even double that here and it's 80% job loss.

interesting that you work with health insurance claims - in a hospital? how big, and how many people are in your department?

realistically, though, how many of you are going to be necessary to work with the government? Logically speaking, the government pays whatever things it already decided to pay, pays them in full, etc. I might be wildly off base here but help me out - in a single-payer system, what would your job even be?
 
Canada has private insurance, but a large portion of health care is covered provincially. With minor experience with both Canadian and American systems, it's very clear that the Canadian system is far more efficient.

For one X-ray, I received 3 bills, from 3 different businesses. One medical professionals, one hospital fee, and one x-ray union fee. Each with different mailing addresses, all randomly through the mail over the course of a few weeks. The bill reminders continued to arrive well after I had already paid the fees. One of the fees I never ended up paying, and I'm still not really sure why (I called and they told me nevermind). I received bill for an unrelated follow up I had 4 months after I finished treatment (for ~20$).

This compares to Canada where I just walk out the door.

If creating an efficient health care system means people who currently work in insurance would have to change jobs, then they are currently a major drain on the economy that we should not be subsidizing (especially considering the number of people who have difficulty paying medical bills).
 
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more to the point anyone working in health insurance (or at a hospital processing health insurance claims) loses their job. what is done about that?

What is going to be done about the massive amounts of jobs lost in almost every field over the next 50 years due to imminent increases in technology designed to improve quality of life? That's a pressing question in general, and as such a pretty bad reason to argue against a major upgrade to people's ability to live and live without poverty.
 
the problem is if u ask anyone but the most favorable of favorable economists about sanders plans they basically say "no fucking way we're paying for that, yep nope that wont work, etc" unless you're willing to face major tax increases on maybe not the villain class. Maybe it'll be the people you're trying to help. and maybe in the great movement of the money from the top 1% to everyone else you'll be taking with it some sacrifices of personal liberty for uncertain gain in having a govt spend your money when theyve proven they are not the most skilled at that.

1) Raising the minimum wage slowly tends not to raise prices, but a spike in it might - and a removal of trade agreements near certainly will. maybe it's a little frightening so many are willing to stare down the barrel of having less money to spend on things that are more expensive in the hopes an efficient u.s govt will cause them to break better than even overall, despite the fact "efficient u.s govt" teeters very close to an oxymoron,

2) despite the fact single-payer would require the disbanding of private health insurance companies ("medicare for all") which seems potentially complicated and constitutionally dicey

3) and it's probably not a good sign that bernie cannot well articulate the breakup plan for companies who already have semi-breakup legislation in place much less a field he would be pioneering breakups of in the u.s, ignoring the fact he cannot write legislation and do this via executive fiat.

4) his policies are dubiously feasible and arguably bad; his appeal is to the heart, as when a current u.s voter hears a politician, she hears the same voice (often with the same surname) shes heard before, and bernie is different, he's real and you can trust him that he wants what he says he does - which sounds pretty good when it's going to college for free (simplified but) and having healthcare for everyone and breaking up banks like they are towers of gold-plated legos. but that's why hes called a populist - he's genuine image over realistic policy substance

1) First, I think the better solution would be for requiring localized minimum wage increases over time to the local cost of living (and a better method of calculating cost of living, as well; the current has poor weighting on things like gasoline which causes issues when gasoline drops while necessities like food rise). I ideally disagree as-is with a federal minimum wage, but sadly many states would refuse to offer such protections regardless and a federal minimum wage is currently better than the alternative. The best solution would be strong support for unions in all sectors, but again, unions are evil and un-American and hurt your company (/s) so most corporations are against unionization and go through great extents to prevent it and pro-business/anti-worker politicians use their legislative capabilities to harm unions as well (at will employment and all).

So in spirit, yes, minimum wage needs to be increased, and the current process for increasing minimum wage is atrocious. Do I agree necessarily with $15, or even $15 over 5 years? Not exactly. But the other candidates range from status quo (which is bad) to regressive (which is terrible) on minimum wage, so they aren't suitable.

(Also Sanders is supportive of worker protections and unions, which is related to minimum wage. The same does not hold for the other candidates, who are again either status quo or would rollback protections and promote legislation to target and harm unions further).

2) Single-payer doesn't have to be "efficient", it simply has to be more efficient than the existing system (mandated private insurance). And by all means, it would be. This has been shown in other leading nations with single-payer healthcare. The US can do it, and arguments otherwise (the US is too big/too different) are moot because we (as a collective) are much richer than any other country and have similar systems in place for certain populations already (Medicare, Medicaid) across the country. (In honesty, arguments against single-payer would be like arguments against a national postal system if USPS didn't exist; the size of the country, and the massive, poor rural areas with tiny populations, have more of an impact on USPS than single-payer, yet USPS would ideally be doing well if Congress wasn't trying to legislate it out of existence with absurd requirements to prove a point).

Furthermore, private insurance companies would still exist. (Why wouldn't they?) They would definitely have to reduce their workforce as their services would be worthless for most Americans who can do just fine with single-payer, but holding onto jobs while limiting "progress" (progress in the sense of larger growth of some [currently, or in the future] larger sector at the cost of growth in a [currently, or in the future] smaller sector) is absurd. That's definitely inefficient. We should be looking into measures to reduce the impact of such disruptions, regardless, because we're approaching the the point where new jobs provided by technology that makes other jobs redundant has been reduced (diminishing returns), and newer technologies (automation of historically human-only tasks) pose great risk to entire sectors. Regardless, specific to single-payer, the federal increases in Medicare would add a great number of job opportunities, offsetting the immediate loss by some margin.

3) Sanders has been rather clear about the importance of legislators and the necessity of electing similar-minded individuals. In honesty, if he were to win, not enough similar-minded individuals would be elected, and most probably voting would fall flat for mid-terms as usual. However, this is not Sander's problem--this is the complex problem of the campaign system, voting process, and voters themselves.

The alternative to strong regulation of the financial sector is the existing system of having the financial sector perversely influence the legislative process, which would be disastrous in the event of another collapse. This existing system is what would happen assuming Congress is obstructionist and Sanders wins, or some other candidate wins (in such as scenario, whether Congress is obstructionist or not does not matter I fear). I wonder why is that never mentioned when criticizing the idea of breaking up banks...?

4) As outlined above, only in small part. In other words, Sanders if a terrible choice... if you want to remain within the status quo. This means neglecting critical infrastructure, neglecting worker protections including wage but also benefits and safety and so on, neglecting gross wealth inequality and poverty, neglecting crime and the regressive legislation and criminal justice system that in much part ensure it, neglecting healthcare and its financial burden on most Americans, neglecting campaign finance and the election process, neglecting the state of education and the artificially-inflated costs and burden of higher education, neglecting the potential dangers of the financial industry...

To be clear, Sanders's idealism and views are aligned (though not to the same degree) as mine, but there are several policies of his I disagree with because I do think there are better alternatives. However, every other candidate is so far removed from my ideals and views they might as well be an election of clones. Clinton, or Trump, or Cruz, or Kasich, or those who dropped out--they would continue in large part the existing policies (neglecting a, b, c, etc as above) that, combined, are most definitely a disaster in the making. Countries of great standing have fallen far because of such idleness--the US would be no different, nor would it be surprising or unheard of.

(Also, I had a hard time reading your post and replying because your post is a giant block.)
 
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the point is not so much that it's literally disallowed so much as generally foregone. 10% of people means 90% of jobs are lost; even double that here and it's 80% job loss.

interesting that you work with health insurance claims - in a hospital? how big, and how many people are in your department?

realistically, though, how many of you are going to be necessary to work with the government? Logically speaking, the government pays whatever things it already decided to pay, pays them in full, etc. I might be wildly off base here but help me out - in a single-payer system, what would your job even be?
I'm a government contractor. The bulk of my company's work is through DHS, a lot of it through CMS. Just because healthcare gets run through the government does not remotely mean there's no private employment involved.

I say that my coworkers and I would lose jobs, but that's only half true. Most of our work is doing the government's supposed responsibilities. So if the government does more, we probably do more too. But that's assuming there's nothing in the law that so simplifies DHS that companies like mine are no longer necessary or even something in the law that mandates DHS to do this work itself.

TBH I might do a "I work in the US health care space at a very broad level" AMA if people would be into it.
 
Assuming single payer happens, the federal government will have to hire a lot of health insurance professionals so the whole system doesn't collapse, so I don't think the job loss argument holds much water.

Anyway, I support Sanders because none of the other viable candidates will take substantive action on climate change. (Clinton is thoroughly in the pockets of the big natural gas companies and the GOP candidates flat out deny climate change is happening.) All this stuff about economics won't matter when New York is under 5 feet of water.
 
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Assuming single payer happens, the federal government will have to hire a lot of health insurance professionals so the whole system doesn't collapse, so I don't think the job loss argument holds much water.

Anyway, I support Sanders because none of the other viable candidates will take substantive action on climate change. (Clinton is thoroughly in the pockets of the big natural gas companies and the GOP candidates flat out deny climate change is happening.) All this stuff about economics won't matter when New York is under 5 feet of water.

Good points. And yes, especially climate change. Like I said before: terrorism, climate change; they are both at least equal threats to national security, and even if we deal with terrorism and defeat ISIS, it will be a phallic victory when most of the coastal towns and cities from around the world ar underwater or in the process of being flooded.

And considering that I live in Florida, which I don't think will do well under rising sea levels, I'll take it VERY personally against the energy companies and politicians who took their campaign contributions bribes if my home and property ends up underwater, unless they are willing to pay me and everyone affected at least a $1,000,000 each.
 
Looks like Trump swept all five states today, by overwhelming numbers. He's almost at 1000 delegates now. I suppose winning is in his genes.

Bernie lost pretty hard tonight.

It's gonna be Trump vs. Clinton.
 
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Should I edit it, or leave it for laughs (and as a harsh reminder not to get the two words confused ever again)?
 
It certainly sucks, and it's pretty backwards maxing your credit card on what Bernie represents, so I hope those aren't true. But I wouldn't regret spending a penny on something I believe in. You probably don't know it, but part of that money is going toward campaigns of senators and other politicians with similar views. If there's EVER going to be a political revolution where what the people want matters more than big money, than this can't be a KONY 2012 thing. It has to be an effort that outlasts a 4 year Clinton administration (and god help us all outlast 4 years of Trump).
 
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When I saw the "Cruz to make major announcement at 4 PM" news story, I immediately turned to my coworker and said "bet it's Fiorina."

I am
[x] Psychic [] Not Psychic
 
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Carly fits Cruz but she is by no means a strong Vice Presidential candidate. Her business mistakes at Hewlett-Packard are going to be exploited greatly by Trump, as there is no shortage of them. I mean, the company forced her to resign. She was antagonistic towards the board of directors, and when they kicked her out of her CEO position, HP's stock jumped 6.9 percent. My, oh my, Trump will definitely exploit that.

Speaking of which, I wonder who Trump will choose as his running mate. He's actually been playing very smart by not giving strong indications. An additional personality would distract from Trump and only serve to dilute him.
 
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