Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)

[earl]

What percentage usage will Lando-T hit before people decide to suspect it? I’m banking on somewhere around 65%. Although Primal Groudon has somewhere around 80% usage in Ubers right now (more than Mega Rayquaza ever had) and people somehow don’t consider it problematic.

List of banned things Lando-T has more usage than:
-Aegislash (banned because “overcentralizing”)
-Mega Metagross (“““““overcentralizing”””””)
-Pheromosa
-Naganadel
-Lando-I
-Genesect

I don’t think u know what overcentralizing means. Lando’s usage is so high because it fills a variety of roles (rocker, breaker, pivot, scarfer, cleaner, etc) and does each role nicely, but is easy enough to check where unviable shit like Zong isn’t being used to counter it (s/o to Megagross). The wide amount of roles it can fill results in high usage, just because something is used a lot doesn’t mean it’s broken lol.

Also it isn’t like Gene or Mosa where if u mispredict the set you lose, the meta’s top threats already can handle it decently well (Ash Gren, Ferro, Keldeo, Kyub, etc)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Also, why did Venusaur drop to NU while Blastoise didn't? Seems like low-ladder RU is still crazy about it.

Now that Mega Blastoise is RU, regular Blastoise will probably drop next time.

 

[power]

No, pokemon drop 1 tier at a time.

Edit: ninja'd by a few seconds

To prevent one-liners, I'll say TR looks really potent in UU now with all those slow mons (Staka, Alolawak, Staplefag Scizor, Azumarill, Hippowdon but lol offensive Hippowdon,...)

Also, Pokeboy and all others who think Lando-T should be banned, ubiquitous doesn't mean bannable. It is centralizing, maybe overcentralizing, but you don't have to run obscure mons/sets to take it down. A lot of Pokés run HP Ice and would still run it without LandoT for Garchomp anyway.

No, Quagsire rose from PU to OU in oras, that didn’t mean it would drop back to PU when it dropped

These are both completely wrong, and Robert Alfons is correct that Kingdra should drop to BL3. See this Policy Review thread and the associated post linked for details: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/drastic-tier-shifts.3578584/page-2#post-6957897

Tagging The Immortal Antar to drop Kingdra to BL3 whenever they get the chance.

 

[alephgalactus]

I don’t think u know what overcentralizing means. Lando’s usage is so high because it fills a variety of roles (rocker, breaker, pivot, scarfer, cleaner, etc) and does each role nicely, but is easy enough to check where unviable shit like Zong is being used to counter it (in regards to Megagross). The wide amount of roles it can fill results in high usage, just because something is used a lot doesn’t mean it’s broken lol.

Also it isn’t like Gene or Mosa where if u mispredict the set you lose, the meta’s top threats already can handle it decently well (Ash Gren, Ferro, Keldeo, Kyub, etc)

I think that when more than half of the largest metagame uses a single Pokémon, it’s a problem. The fact that we’ve let this cancer sit around for 2 generations is bad enough.

 

[Ellicrum]

| 38 | Gliscor | 4.45468% | 176262 | 4.153% | 63 | 5.451% |
| 40 | Quagsire | 4.20720% | 39935 | 0.941% | 9 | 0.779% |
| 43 | Ditto | 3.98054% | 72695 | 1.713% | 47 | 4.066% |
--> OU-1825

| 35 | Quagsire | 4.94812% | 9542 | 1.819% | 6 | 3.371% |
| 36 | Sandslash-Alola | 4.77923% | 12838 | 2.448% | 6 | 3.371% |
| 38 | Aurorus | 4.63626% | 11909 | 2.271% | 3 | 1.685% |
| 41 | Lucario | 4.41809% | 21254 | 4.052% | 8 | 4.494% |
--> UU-1760

| 28 | Pyukumuku | 7.25314% | 3072 | 1.387% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 48 | Sigilyph | 3.98480% | 5430 | 2.452% | 0 | 0.000% |
--> RU-1760

| 41 | Togedemaru | 4.74622% | 2783 | 1.777% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 42 | Jellicent | 4.54358% | 10032 | 6.406% | 5 | 13.333% |
| 48 | Crustle | 3.55730% | 1258 | 0.803% | 0 | 0.000% |
--> NU-1760

Why these pokemons are not mounted?

 

[Ellicrum]

| 2 | Feraligatr | 24.95479% | 36843 | 16.637% | 6 | 9.600% | (RU-1760)

A wild suspect-test appears!

 

[Lillie's 音MADs]

Goodbye Qwlfish in PU, was nice having you around.

 

[Merritt]

| 38 | Gliscor | 4.45468% | 176262 | 4.153% | 63 | 5.451% |
| 40 | Quagsire | 4.20720% | 39935 | 0.941% | 9 | 0.779% |
| 43 | Ditto | 3.98054% | 72695 | 1.713% | 47 | 4.066% |
--> OU-1825

| 35 | Quagsire | 4.94812% | 9542 | 1.819% | 6 | 3.371% |
| 36 | Sandslash-Alola | 4.77923% | 12838 | 2.448% | 6 | 3.371% |
| 38 | Aurorus | 4.63626% | 11909 | 2.271% | 3 | 1.685% |
| 41 | Lucario | 4.41809% | 21254 | 4.052% | 8 | 4.494% |
--> UU-1760

| 28 | Pyukumuku | 7.25314% | 3072 | 1.387% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 48 | Sigilyph | 3.98480% | 5430 | 2.452% | 0 | 0.000% |
--> RU-1760

| 41 | Togedemaru | 4.74622% | 2783 | 1.777% | 0 | 0.000% |
| 42 | Jellicent | 4.54358% | 10032 | 6.406% | 5 | 13.333% |
| 48 | Crustle | 3.55730% | 1258 | 0.803% | 0 | 0.000% |
--> NU-1760

Why these pokemons are not mounted?

Shifts use the 1695 stats for OU and 1630 for other tiers, not the 1825/1760 stats

 

[Ellicrum]

Shifts use the 1695 stats for OU and 1630 for other tiers, not the 1825/1760 stats

Ah ok I did not know

 

[Yung Dramps]

I would like this to be an actual metagame(s) discussion thread and not another Lando-T hate bandwagon thread, thank you very much.

 

[alephgalactus]

I would like this to be an actual metagame(s) discussion thread and not another Lando-T hate bandwagon thread, thank you very much.

Oh, excuse me for noticing that an overcentralizing Pokémon is overcentralizing.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Oh, excuse me for noticing that an overcentralizing Pokémon is overcentralizing.

Earlio has already stated why LandoT isnt overcentralizing.
Mayje I have to explain a little more.

Imagine each one of LandoT's sets is a different Pokemon (they function so differently that they might as well be.) Each of these sets isn't broken, and they all get some decent usage. But since it remains the same base Pokémon, Lando-T, all the usage of these sets adds up and Lando gets massive usage. But it isn't overcentralizing and even less broken.

Your argument of "once it reaches 65% it has to be suspected" is completely invalid, since usage is never used as an argument for being bannable. You even proved yourself a lot of banned Pokémon had less usage.

Something is overcentralizing when teams have to run a lot of specific, obscure measures just not to auto-lose to that mon. Aegislash was overcentralizing because stuff like Pinsir was forced to run Earthquake over other moves just to beat it, when it would rather run something like Close Combat. Pheromosa was overcentralizing because offensive teams had to run Toxapex, a Pokémon with 63/53 offenses and terrible speed, to have a chance at beating it. I'm still skeptical about whether Mega Meta was actually broken or not, but since the usage of Mega Scizor and even mons line Bronzong, who are very unviable otherwise, skyrocketed just to beat it, you can at least see why some people found it overcentralizing. Naganadel was overcentralizing since every team without AV TTar, SpDef Heatran, Scarf Greninja or Banded Weavile auto-lost to it once it set up and it was way easier for it to set up than you might think. Every match against Naganadel was focused about not letting it set up, and those matches were arguably even more annoying than Full Stall VS Full Stall.

Really, the only guys who think Lando-T is broken are those who are too lazy to actually run something on their teams that can beat it and then say it's broken in the hope of not having to deal with it anymore.

 

[Project_Mars]

Really, the only guys who think Lando-T is broken are those who are too lazy to actually run something on their teams that can beat it and then say it's broken in the hope of not having to deal with it anymore.

Which is just shooting yourself in the foot when it’s on literally half the teams out there. Come on guys get with the program and make sure your OU teams have a way to beat it before actually using them.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I think the real reason people want Lando-T gone is not because its actually broken, but because of overexposure. Finchinator touched upon this in an OU thread, but basically, people are sick and tired of seeing it on every team, hearing the same lion cry over and over while they ladder. It's why tons of people hate Frozen: It's not bad nor vulgar, but even today it continues to be seen and heard, and that is guaranteed to piss people off.

That's not a problem with the complainers, lando ain't really borked, but yeah.

 

[Nailec]

Is it relevant to have the stats for totem forms separated from the base ones ?
I don't think it makes sense to make distinct bans given the difference is extremely small compared to Mega-Evolution or Battle Bond Greninja and their regular forms, so I wanted to make sure that if Marowak-Alola-Totem had 0.5% more usage both forms would have stayed in OU.

 

[dhelmise]

These are both completely wrong, and Robert Alfons is correct that Kingdra should drop to BL3. See this Policy Review thread and the associated post linked for details: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/drastic-tier-shifts.3578584/page-2#post-6957897

Tagging The Immortal Antar to drop Kingdra to BL3 whenever they get the chance.

Literally I implemented the stuff the least you can do is tag me

 

[Ryolain]

Is it relevant to have the stats for totem forms separated from the base ones ?
I don't think it makes sense to make distinct bans given the difference is extremely small compared to Mega-Evolution or Battle Bond Greninja and their regular forms, so I wanted to make sure that if Marowak-Alola-Totem had 0.5% more usage both forms would have stayed in OU.

I’d think tiering them based on combined usage, not on which one has the higher usage is the logical method. Since they aren’t functionally different I’d guess whichever one comes up first in the team builder search is the one that will get more usage; you’re not going to get any meaningful data looking at them separately, it will basically be random.

 

[Xayah]

Where are the uses of ZU?

If you mean usage stats, we don't have those since ZU is not an official metagame so it does not have a ladder on PS

 

[Drk Pwnr]

Since they aren’t functionally different

Just want to point out for anyone who doesn't know, the Totem forms are heavier than the standard forms, so moves like Grass Knot and Heavy Slam will have different damage outputs against Totems. So there is a functional difference, but it's mostly a trivial one.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Venusaur in NU and Mega Blastoise in RU will be fun.

If Mega Blastoise doesn't go back up, we can expect a decline in non-mega Blastoise usage. That plus Mandibuzz get rid of a lot of any niches regular Blastoise might have ever really possessed. (And Doublade is getting worse and worse anyway) And finally seeing that thing in NU will be the happiest moment of this gen for me. (Also Arcanine/Entei/Darm/Metagross in RU but we know that'll never happen)

 

[Ryolain]

Just want to point out for anyone who doesn't know, the Totem forms are heavier than the standard forms, so moves like Grass Knot and Heavy Slam will have different damage outputs against Totems. So there is a functional difference, but it's mostly a trivial one.

By “functional difference” I meant that they don’t actually play any differently from a pragmatic perspective, unless someone can point me to notable/relevant damage calcs.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Literally the only differences between normal and totem forms are 1) size of sprite (and I dont know if that's the case on PS too), 2) more weight but that very rarely actually matters and 3) the Totems only have 1 available ability, so you're just giving away information about your set by using them.

Really, the only reason to use totems is because they sound special.

So I think we should combine usage-- yet I don't know if it'll ever even make a difference.

 

[alephgalactus]

Really, the only guys who think Lando-T is broken are those who are too lazy to actually run something on their teams that can beat it and then say it's broken in the hope of not having to deal with it anymore.

Replace “Lando-T” in that quote with literally any other mon you mentioned and you’ve constructed every anti-ban argument ever.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Replace “Lando-T” in that quote with literally any other mon you mentioned and you’ve constructed every anti-ban argument ever.

Look, if you really think Lando-T is broken, gather up some supporters, construct a convincing argument that does not cite usage and actually EXPLAINS why Lando is overcentralizing, and then present it to one of the OU Council members/TLs.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Replace “Lando-T” in that quote with literally any other mon you mentioned and you’ve constructed every anti-ban argument ever.

Thing is, the answers to LandoT aren't exactly uncommon or unviable. Greninja is a top-tier threat and dunks on it. Keldeo can blast it away with Hydro Pump. KyuB outspeeds it and can OHKO with Ice Beam. Tapu Lele isnt bothered by Intimidate and can deal a lot of damage with Psychic. Rain abusers like Kingdra, Megampert and even Pelipper itself deal heavy damage with Water moves. Manaphy can heavily damage it and set up Tail Glow or Z-Rain Dance on the switch. Skarmory, Tangrowth, Mega Slowbro and Celesteela have few problems walling it with Slowbro even threatening it with its STAB Water attacks. Rotom-W is immune to EQ and can Hydro Pump it or burn it with WOW. Pokemon like Tapu Koko can also carry coverage like Hidden Power Ice to hit it. In short, the list of Pokémon that can check/counter Lando-T is big enough to say it isn't broken, and these mons are all good in their own right and do more than just checking Lando-T unlike stuff like AV T-Tar which was used only to check Naga.